Garrard Decals

[BTH K10A]

These would add a nice finishing touch to a Garrard plinth or PSU

The seller does quite a range and it looks to be very good quality

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-GARRARD-WATER-SLIDE-DECAL-VINTAGE-LOGO-GOLD-BLACK-FOR-TURNTABLE-PROJECT-/281279816354?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417d9562a2

[The Black Adder]

Nice find, Andy.. They also do Thorens too!

[PaulStewart]

The Garrard, Thorens, Neuman and Telefunken ones are are illegal as the trade marks are still active. The trademarks of Garrard are owned by Gradiente of Brazil who purchased them from Plessy along with the company. The licensee of the trade mark is Loricraft in the UK for all territories outside North America and Service Guaranty Corp in America. Sorry to pee in your pot guy's but this is intellectual property theft, please don't encourage the bloody putz :mad:

[walpurgis]

Legal arguments over trademarks might be tricky with somebody based in Peru.

[PaulStewart]

Legal arguments over trademarks might be tricky with somebody based in Peru.

Agreed, but if the thief is in London, Lima or Timbuktu he's still a bloody thief :steam:

[BTH K10A]

The Garrard, Thorens, Neuman and Telefunken ones are are illegal as the trade marks are still active. The trademarks of Garrard are owned by Gradiente of Brazil who purchased them from Plessy along with the company. The licensee of the trade mark is Loricraft in the UK for all territories outside North America and Service Guaranty Corp in America. Sorry to pee in your pot guy's but this is intellectual property theft, please don't encourage the bloody putz :mad:


I think you need to check your facts with regard to historic logos and what constitues infringement otherwise this UK company is in serious trouble http://www.classictransfers.co.uk/

[PaulStewart]

I think you need to check your facts with regard to historic logos and what constitues infringement otherwise this UK company is in serious trouble http://www.classictransfers.co.uk/

Historic logo's can be legally reproduced, live TRADEMARKS or copyright logos can't. Many companies like Robert Derrick Ltd. licence the rights to this logos. I know the facts about copyright matters and patents as pertaining to the Copyrights, Designs and Patent Act 1988 as amended and the various follow up legislation.

[BTH K10A]

Historic logo's can be legally reproduced, live TRADEMARKS or copyright logos can't. Many companies like Robert Derrick Ltd. licence the rights to this logos. I know the facts about copyright matters and patents as pertaining to the Copyrights, Designs and Patent Act 1988 as amended and the various follow up legislation.

Trademarks have to be registered every so often to keep them in force , 10 years in the UK and up to 25 years elsewhere in the world. Whilst there are a few companies such as Ford that protect every iteration, most do not and only submit current versions for protection. I doubt the versions offered are still actually registered.

As long as there is no intent to defraud, and in this case it is clearly not as the trademark / logo is not being applied to a product it is very unlikely any crime has been committed. Ford took action against a reprograhics company and lost.

A more henious crime IMHO is the reinvention of notable brands of yesteryear who's lineage has long been lost to sell a modern product by trading on the history and reputation of that brand.

[PaulStewart]

A trademark is also a copyright image and like any other copyright image, may not be reproduced without specific permission and/or payment. That is how the law stands at the moment. Companies like Thorens, Gaarrard etc. certainly do re register and protect their trade marks. Please don't encourage people to break the law and steal, IP theft is the same as robbery or fraud.

[walpurgis]

A more henious crime IMHO is the reinvention of notable brands of yesteryear who's lineage has long been lost to sell a modern product by trading on the history and reputation of that brand.

Rather like BMW selling their 'Series 2' range as The Mini, after nicking the name from this country. It may be a decent car, but it is not a Mini and never will be.

[Macca]

A, IP theft is the same as robbery or fraud.

Highly debatable.

Certainly if there is intention to defraud or if used to make 'knock-offs' there is a case for criminalisation, otherwise I would suggest that selling or indeed buying these transfers for personal use is morally acceptable and unlikely to result in prosecution.

[BTH K10A]

Highly debatable.

Certainly if there is intention to defraud or if used to make 'knock-offs' there is a case for criminalisation, otherwise I would suggest that selling or indeed buying these transfers for personal use is morally acceptable and unlikely to result in prosecution.

These are logos from the 1900's through to the fifties clearly sold for the purpose of restoring original products, copyright has probably expired on most if not all and these ancient versions may not form part of the current registration as I doubt any of the manufacturers still support their products from those times. I would also think that proving an intent to defraud would be next to impossible.

Whilst a cautionary note may have been appropriate, making accusations of theft and robbery without being in possession of the full facts is unacceptable as it could transpire that the seller is within the requisite law(s) and has been subject to defamatory remarks on this forum.

[PaulStewart]

Highly debatable.

Certainly if there is intention to defraud or if used to make 'knock-offs' there is a case for criminalisation, otherwise I would suggest that selling or indeed buying these transfers for personal use is morally acceptable and unlikely to result in prosecution.

That is Utter Horse Manure, please talk about what you know about... Read the CDP Act of 1988. THEFT IS NOT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE EVER!

[Macca]

Laws don't define morality. Even if something is technically against the law that does not automatically make it wrong. If I buy a Garrard logo off this bloke and stick it on my 401 exactly how is that stealing from someone? We have always had a tradition in this country where the law is applied with common sense, which is why no-one was ever prosecuted for making tapes to play in the car.

[twotone]

Laws don't define morality. Even if something is technically against the law that does not automatically make it wrong. If I buy a Garrard logo off this bloke and stick it on my 401 exactly how is that stealing from someone? We have always had a tradition in this country where the law is applied with common sense, which is why no-one was ever prosecuted for making tapes to play in the car.

That's no different from buying knock off stuff down the pub Martin, I've had a look at the site in question and it's obvious that they have stolen the logo.

If people didn't buy stuff like this then there would be no market for it and that applies to everything really and is just exactly the same with punters stealing stuff from people then selling it on for buttons.

There is no such thing as a victimless crime.

[YNWaN]

A more henious crime IMHO is the reinvention of notable brands of yesteryear who's lineage has long been lost to sell a modern product by trading on the history and reputation of that brand.

On that note, I see the Royd name is going to reused...

Of course there is also the Richer Sounds stable of companies - Wharfedale etc.

[ninedecks]

I'm collecting parts for a couple of deck/plinth builds and will probably use these guys. I don't feel that I am ripping anyone off, if the decals were available from the original source I would use them, but as they don't supply or are not in business, I will go to Peru.
No-one is going to go bankrupt, no-one is being hurt, 6 year old Pakistani kids are not being exploited and I am not going to be prosecuted for carrying out this immoral act of desecration.
I can see where you are all coming from, it's just that I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over it, life really is too short.

[PaulStewart]

@David if it's a Garrard or Thorens logo, they are legally avaolable from the trademark owners. @Martin People have been prosecuted for making tapes in the past, the industry took a stance several years ago that if you buy it legally then you can copy it for use in the car, iPod etc. People who steal interlectual property however are liable to prosecution, even if they claim personal use. As someone whose income is partly from payments for copyright items, how do you think Tesco w ould react if I filled a trollet, pushed to the chrckout and said "I don't have to pay for thise as it's for personal use". It's the same thing THEFT IS THEFT.

[twotone]

I'm collecting parts for a couple of deck/plinth builds and will probably use these guys. I don't feel that I am ripping anyone off, if the decals were available from the original source I would use them, but as they don't supply or are not in business, I will go to Peru.
No-one is going to go bankrupt, no-one is being hurt, 6 year old Pakistani kids are not being exploited and I am not going to be prosecuted for carrying out this immoral act of desecration.
I can see where you are all coming from, it's just that I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over it, life really is too short.

I actually find this attitude astonishing so your saying that you will buy a £600 or whatever it costs record deck and spend God only knows how much tarting it up then you are going to buy stolen logos to put on said deck?

[PaulStewart]

I actually find this attitude astonishing so your saying that you will buy a £600 or whatever it costs record deck and spend God only knows how much tarting it up then you are going to buy stolen logos to put on said deck?

Plus 1 That is a really terrible attitude, presumably you won't hypocritically object when some burglar takes all your kit for "personal use" or some card fraudster empties your bank account. THEFT IS THEFT, DON'T DO IT OR ENCOURAGE IT!

[jaym481]

I thought trademark issues were a civil matter. Is it a felony in the UK, or does the trademark holder have to bring civil action? A little different from burglary, no?

[PaulStewart]

I thought trademark issues were a civil matter. Is it a felony in the UK, or does the trademark holder have to bring civil action? A little different from burglary, no?

Funnily enough I'm picture editing the paper tonight, so I asked the duty lawyer (like all national papers we have a duty barrister in to check the copy for legals). He informs me that it is both criminal and civil, you can get done by the cops under counterfeiting legislation and then sued for damages for this. It's no different from any other non violent thef.

[awkwardbydesign]

I have a question. Are these decals, or similar, available from the copyright holder?

[PaulStewart]

I have a question. Are these decals, or similar, available from the copyright holder?

That is irrelevant legally, but in the case of Thorens and Garrard yes not sure about the others

[awkwardbydesign]

Irrelevant legally, but in my personal view not morally. If they are available from the copyright holder, then you are taking possible sales away from them. If they don't produce anything similar, then you are not. Just my personal view.