View Full Version : To Plait or not to Plait!! IC Cables
darkmatter
04-06-2014, 14:15
I have made up loads of cables over the years and have experimented with all kinds of configurations and materials, just too many to recall!!
I am currently investigating plaiting multi single core conductors to build up a conductor set.
Has anyone here experimented with plaiting the conductors?
anthonyTD
04-06-2014, 14:38
hi Simon,
I have over the years experimented with simple plaited configurations, and as you suggest, multiple stranded plaits, for IC and mains, and the results have been less than favorable in both instances, although, i have heard others who have had positive results in their systems, in my opinion, increased capacitance and inductance is to be avoided in both cases...
A...
rubber duck
04-06-2014, 14:51
What a sensible answer, and such a sensible forum!
Am I then mistaken in thinking that cables were woven to reduce capacitance?
Ali Tait
04-06-2014, 14:57
Made these in the past, they were very good-
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/triple_t_e.html
darkmatter
04-06-2014, 16:07
Indeed it is a refreshing change to have a sensible discussion
Good points made which confirm one or two doubts that I have with electrical / mechanical properties and their likely impact.
Certainly will look forward to my experiments :)
i'm not sure I get it but i've made a pair of IC's with solid core silver wire and teflon tubing which look quite exotic.. not sure they are any better than the others i've made.. but they do look quite nice me thinks
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/9e3ubymy.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/avyvuqet.jpg
awkwardbydesign
04-06-2014, 16:20
What a sensible answer, and such a sensible forum!
Am I then mistaken in thinking that cables were woven to reduce capacitance?
I think it reduces inductance but increases capacitance.
awkwardbydesign
04-06-2014, 16:22
Made these in the past, they were very good-
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/triple_t_e.html
I made some of these and it made my amp unstable. High capacitance, so now I have made a Zobel (8R2+100nF across the speaker terminals) for the new Polk Cobra litz I am using. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-SpkrCab.html
oops, are you talking about speaker cables ?? if so will delete my contrib, sorry
For some reason lost in time, I ended up with three drums of 1mm solid core copper cable. I have made up interconnects with these, plaited together and with one conductor connected at one RCA plug only. I have no idea how they measured, but thought they sounded ok with the stuff I use. Too much faff IMO when decent ready-made alternative wires are available for not much dosh.
Personally, I wouldn't do that for single ended. Plaiting increases capacitance, has no benefit over coax geometry and worst of all, offers no screening which in my view is never a good thing for interconnects.
awkwardbydesign
04-06-2014, 18:09
oops, are you talking about speaker cables ?? if so will delete my contrib, sorry
My mistake! :doh:
awkwardbydesign
04-06-2014, 18:11
Indeed it is a refreshing change to have a sensible discussion
Yes, I noticed that elsewhere. Which is why I am replying here.
as a french speaker i thought 'plait' was referring to 'to please' :doh: sorry for the confusion
Ali Tait
04-06-2014, 20:18
I made some of these and it made my amp unstable. High capacitance, so now I have made a Zobel (8R2+100nF across the speaker terminals) for the new Polk Cobra litz I am using. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-SpkrCab.html
Used mine on various valve amps with no problems, but as said, are high capacitance, so can upset some amps.
darkmatter
04-06-2014, 20:19
as a french speaker i thought 'plait' was referring to 'to please' :doh: sorry for the confusion
Maybe the final results might :D
awkwardbydesign
04-06-2014, 20:26
Used mine on various valve amps with no problems, but as said, are high capacitance, so can upset some amps.
Mine WAS a valve amp! But the Zobel should take care of it when I use that amp again. I hope!
I have made up loads of cables over the years and have experimented with all kinds of configurations and materials, just too many to recall!!
I am currently investigating plaiting multi single core conductors to build up a conductor set.
Has anyone here experimented with plaiting the conductors?
Yes, and it works, you can quite easily experiment with any number of strands and get some very interesting results.
Personally, I wouldn't do that for single ended. Plaiting increases capacitance, has no benefit over coax geometry and worst of all, offers no screening which in my view is never a good thing for interconnects.
How does plaiting increase capacitance? In my experiments vs coax configurations its much lower. The only way a coax can match it is to increase the separation between the core and screen making the cable unusually large. Look at any balanced microphone cable, the twisted cores exhibit lower capacitance than any single core to screen.
Mine WAS a valve amp! But the Zobel should take care of it when I use that amp again. I hope!
It will but the Zobel will kill the music as well....IME, better to change the cable and ditch the Zobel.
How does plaiting increase capacitance? In my experiments vs coax configurations its much lower. The only way a coax can match it is to increase the separation between the core and screen making the cable unusually large. Look at any balanced microphone cable, the twisted cores exhibit lower capacitance than any single core to screen.
Not true. Most balanced cables are higher in capacitance. I'm not sure what mic cables you've measured but look at the data for most mic cables or Star Quad configurations and capacitance is about 110 to 120 pF/m. For most coax, it's closer to 70pF/m depending on dielectric and signal core diameter. Coax at 70pF/m is perfectly adequate and MUCH better to use for phono cables especially because it is screened. There is nothing beneficial, at all, about using unscreened cables in single ended configurations. Capacitance is purely a function of conductor area, spacing and dielectric used but for interconnects, it isn't necessarily as problematical as using no screening. It is a problem where output impedance combined with capacitance come together to create a low pass filter. No screening is generally of greater significance.
Not true. Most balanced cables are higher in capacitance. I'm not sure what mic cables you've measured but look at the data for most mic cables or Star Quad configurations and capacitance is about 110 to 120 pF/m. For most coax, it's closer to 70pF/m depending on dielectric and signal core diameter. Coax at 70pF/m is perfectly adequate and MUCH better to use for phono cables especially because it is screened. There is nothing beneficial, at all, about using unscreened cables in single ended configurations. Capacitance is purely a function of conductor area, spacing and dielectric used but for interconnects, it isn't necessarily as problematical as using no screening. It is a problem where output impedance combined with capacitance come together to create a low pass filter. No screening is generally of greater significance.
Most Coax cable is around 70~100pF. Some measurements:
XKE Instrument ~98pF
AC-110 ~75pF
Maplin Shark ~108pF
Jinsanjiao ~213pF
Chord Siren ~72pF
Shark Video ~68pF
Then compared to the microphone cable I have:
Shark, Core to Core ~63pF / Core to Screen ~113pF
XKE Microphone, Core to Core ~50pF / Core to Screen ~87pF
XKE Patch, Core to Core ~69pF / Core to Screen ~120pF
OK not an exhaustive sample but an indication that in general a coaxial design will give high capacitance vs a simple twisted pair cable. Compared to the two plaited cables I have all of the above (except for the Core to Core of the XKE Microphone) are higher:
Kimber ~50pF
DIY Silver ~44pF
Yes you lose screening and that may be of importance, however, this is all a bit academic anyhow as unless the capacitance is stupidly high or the o/p impedance very high these levels of capacitance won't cause any noticeable roll off in the treble.
I have made up loads of cables over the years and have experimented with all kinds of configurations and materials, just too many to recall!!
I am currently investigating plaiting multi single core conductors to build up a conductor set.
Has anyone here experimented with plaiting the conductors?
Now, there's a word I have not see in decades, "plait", LOL. I am a former subject of Her Majesty, born in the British West Indies, where the term plait is commonly used. Fast-forward to America, where I now live, where we say "braid".
I just got some NeoTech NEP-3200 power cable a couple of days ago, to make up a DIY power cord. It consists of six individually insulated 17 gauge conductors (9 gauge total) for the hot and neutral, and four 17 gauge conductors (12 gauge total) for the ground/earth. The conductors are all woven in an intricate braided pattern around a PVC core, with everything wrapped in a conductive foil. The interesting thing is, there is no "drain wire" and the foil does not connect to ground. I've never seen such construction before.
How does plaiting increase capacitance? In my experiments vs coax configurations its much lower. The only way a coax can match it is to increase the separation between the core and screen making the cable unusually large. Look at any balanced microphone cable, the twisted cores exhibit lower capacitance than any single core to screen.
Not true...a little fact finding is needed. Quadflex balanced cable has a higher overall capacitance than say Klotz 110 coax. (70pF/ft for the coax as to 52pF between conductors PLUS between to 107 conductor to shield for the Quadflex making a total capacitance of 159pF/m ) so quadflex is higher in capacitance to a typical coax, and by twice as much. Don't take my word for it...have a look at what the manufacturers stated capacitance is for their leads. You'll find amongst the lowest are coax interconnects. I am not including twisted pairs in the discussion because as far as I am concerned, they have no place in a single ended interconnect which ideally needs to be screened.
It's basic theory. Capacitance depends upon the total number of conductors, their spacing, diameter and the dielectric constant of the insulation used so one simply cannot say that a braided interconnect is lower in capacitance compared with a coax unless small conductors are used, widely spaced and their number low enough to minimise capacitance. Look at braided speaker cables consisting of 5 or more cores...most are way higher capacitance to twin core or even twin core overall screened speaker cables. In any event, for most line level applications, capacitance is not a real issue unless cable lengths start to exceed a good few metres, or where used for MM signal transfer to a phono stage or where passive preamps are used where keeping interconnect lengths as short as possible is generally advised.
Not true...a little fact finding is needed. Quadflex balanced cable has a higher overall capacitance than say Klotz 110 coax. (70pF/ft for the coax as to 52pF between conductors PLUS between to 107 conductor to shield for the Quadflex making a total capacitance of 159pF/m ) so quadflex is higher in capacitance to a typical coax, and by twice as much.
That could explain why I didn't like it, as without even knowing what the capacitance figures were, I could clearly hear that the Quadflex, in comparison with the AC110, and certainly the more dynamic sounding MC5000, imbued an 'opaque' characteristic on the music...
It's heartening to know that yer old lugs don't let you down! ;)
Marco.
Not true...a little fact finding is needed. Quadflex balanced cable has a higher overall capacitance than say Klotz 110 coax. (70pF/ft for the coax as to 52pF between conductors PLUS between to 107 conductor to shield for the Quadflex making a total capacitance of 159pF/m ) so quadflex is higher in capacitance to a typical coax, and by twice as much. Don't take my word for it...have a look at what the manufacturers stated capacitance is for their leads. You'll find amongst the lowest are coax interconnects. I am not including twisted pairs in the discussion because as far as I am concerned, they have no place in a single ended interconnect which ideally needs to be screened.
It's basic theory. Capacitance depends upon the total number of conductors, their spacing, diameter and the dielectric constant of the insulation used so one simply cannot say that a braided interconnect is lower in capacitance compared with a coax unless small conductors are used, widely spaced and their number low enough to minimise capacitance. Look at braided speaker cables consisting of 5 or more cores...most are way higher capacitance to twin core or even twin core overall screened speaker cables. In any event, for most line level applications, capacitance is not a real issue unless cable lengths start to exceed a good few metres, or where used for MM signal transfer to a phono stage or where passive preamps are used where keeping interconnect lengths as short as possible is generally advised.
You took your time :lol: see my measurements above...
That could explain why I didn't like it, as without even knowing what the capacitance figures were, I could clearly hear that the Quadflex, in comparison with the AC110, and certainly the more dynamic sounding MC5000, imbued an 'opaque' characteristic on the music...
It's heartening to know that yer old lugs don't let you down! ;)
Marco.
The capacitance is a red hearing Marco. Unless your source device has a very high o/p impedance these small variations in capacitance (70 to 200pf) have no effect in the audible frequency range.
Just to add the MC5000 microphone cable (double copper braided screen, twisted pair):
Conductor to conductor 55pF/m
Conductor to shield 95pF/m
The capacitance is a red hearing Marco. Unless your source device has a very high o/p impedance these small variations in capacitance (70 to 200pf) have no effect in the audible frequency range.
Perhaps, but a) I didn't like it (the Quadflex), and b) that was because it muddied the sound and restricted dymamic impact, in comparison with either the AC100 or MC5000.
Make of that what you will :)
Marco.
Just to add the MC5000 microphone cable (double copper braided screen, twisted pair):
Conductor to conductor 55pF/m
Conductor to shield 95pF/m
That seems to me like a reasonable difference. Despite what some think, I'm not convinced that the effect of these (apparently small) differences in capacitance can't be heard in a very revealing and genuinely high-resolution system.
Marco.
...unless you are a bat ;)
Mr Kipling
08-08-2014, 07:16
I can:t see how 5pF difference in total between the Quadflex and MC5000 would make any real difference.
...unless you are a bat ;)
Well - I hear what I hear.... If it's not the higher capacitance causing the issue, then it's something else, which is why Klotz MC5000 made it into my system, and not Quadflex :)
Marco.
I can:t see how 5pF difference in total between the Quadflex and MC5000 would make any real difference.
I thought it was twice as much, as stated earlier by Paul (using Klotz 110 as the reference):
Quadflex balanced cable has a higher overall capacitance than say Klotz 110 coax. (70pF/ft for the coax as to 52pF between conductors PLUS between to 107 conductor to shield for the Quadflex making a total capacitance of 159pF/m ) so quadflex is higher in capacitance to a typical coax, and by twice as much.
Or have I got that wrong?
Marco.
Blueflash
08-08-2014, 08:15
If you have a NOS digital, ladder Dac and no output filter, the extra capacitance will help smooth thing up in the treble even if it rolls off above 40 kHz.
Give it a listen, the results are subtle but meaningful :-)
Mr Kipling
08-08-2014, 11:58
Yes, you've got it wrong.
A typical co-ax cable had only one centre conductor and shield, so you just have one lot of capacitance.
Just to add the MC5000 microphone cable (double copper braided screen, twisted pair):
Conductor to conductor 55pF/m
Conductor to shield 95pF/m
Exactly, so total capacitance is 150pF/m or twice that of coax. As a correction to my earlier post, I quoted AC110 as 70pF/ft when of course it should have read "70pF/m" (or for the more pedantic, 72pF/m ;)). By comparison, the coax I use is 65pF/m but the difference in capacitance alone does not determine the differences in sound that may exist (read on).
There's way more to differences in sound being just the geometry. Please folks don't be tempted to draw conclusions on geometry or brand alone. How a cable sounds in YOUR system is dependant upon the CIRCUIT to which it becomes a part, and as such, the LCR characteristics of the cable will matter more in some circumstances (hence systems) than in others. There are rules of thumb and good practice to be observed in cable design and construction. Dielectric choice, quality of terminations, effectiveness of shielding, impedance of ground return (usually the shield), length of cable, type of RCA employed ALL go to determining how any interconnect may "sound" in your system. Consistency of manufacture is also important.
Exactly, so total capacitance is 150pF/m or twice that of coax. As a correction to my earlier post, I quoted AC110 as 70pF/ft when of course it should have read "70pF/m" (or for the more pedantic, 72pF/m ;)). By comparison, the coax I use is 65pF/m but the difference in capacitance alone does not determine the differences in sound that may exist (read on).
There's way more to differences in sound being just the geometry. Please folks don't be tempted to draw conclusions on geometry or brand alone. How a cable sounds in YOUR system is dependant upon the CIRCUIT to which it becomes a part, and as such, the LCR characteristics of the cable will matter more in some circumstances (hence systems) than in others. There are rules of thumb and good practice to be observed in cable design and construction. Dielectric choice, quality of terminations, effectiveness of shielding, impedance of ground return (usually the shield), length of cable, type of RCA employed ALL go to determining how any interconnect may "sound" in your system. Consistency of manufacture is also important.
The total capacitance will be 55pF + (95pF)/2 = 102.5pF. The capacitance between each conductor and the shield are in series, and this series combination appears in parallel with the inter-conductor capacitance.
I agree with the rest of what you have written, save I don't believe the type of RCA connectors have much to do with SQ.
The total capacitance will be 55pF + (95pF)/2 = 102.5pF. The capacitance between each conductor and the shield are in series, and this series combination appears in parallel with the inter-conductor capacitance.
I agree with the rest of what you have written, save I don't believe the type of RCA connectors have much to do with SQ.
Yes, agreed Barry. Of course when in series, it will appear in parallel with inter-conductor C, so you're correct; 102.5pF (from C1 + (C2*C3)/(C2+C3)). Point is, that braids which involve multiple conductors are usually higher in capacitance than a standard coax construction, ditto quadflex designs and balanced designs. I'll agree to disagree RE connectors as my experience has been that the type of connector and how well it is terminated can have an impact on SQ. I may use a technical approach to design and construction (for obvious reasons) but am broad minded enough to accept differences which I've experienced and others have experienced. Of course, many of these do have fairly rational explanations when detailed design is more closely examined.
And yet my measurement of Kimber and that of my own DIY effort say otherwise....go figure.
I agree with the rest of what you have written, save I don't believe the type of RCA connectors have much to do with SQ.
Wow, Barry - I couldn't disagree MORE, mate, as the above is totally contrary to the (now extensive) experience I've gained from using various types of RCA plugs!
How many of the more 'exotic' varieties have you tried, such as WBT, KLE, Graham Nalty, Furutech, etc, [plugs that have actually been designed to help minimise the inherent flaws of RCAs], in order to form an opinion based on practical experience, rather than simply theory? ;)
As for all this capacitance stuff, most of it goes above my daft big nut. Paul seems to be saying that the Quadflex is of significantly higher capacitance than Klotz AC110 or MC5000, so that'll do for me. I certainly know which I prefer the sound of.
Marco.
Blueflash
09-08-2014, 09:31
I cannot remember the last time I bought an interconnect as I always make my own and check them 1, for continuity and 2, Measure the LCR characteristics.
I have changed a plug and the LCR values changed ... not a lot but a measurable one on a Peak LCR meter. And no, my fingers were not touching any thing other than the meter :-)
I cannot remember the last time I bought an interconnect as I always make my own and check them 1, for continuity and 2, Measure the LCR characteristics.
I have changed a plug and the LCR values changed ... not a lot but a measurable one on a Peak LCR meter. And no, my fingers were not touching any thing other than the meter :-)
I wouldn't have thought the change in capacitance was any more than about 5 - 10pF; about the same difference as 4" of cable.
[...] I don't believe the type of RCA connectors have much to do with SQ.
I have an open mind (read 'do not know') about the various constructions of RCA plugs, but surely the materials of the signal-carrying parts matter. I would have thought that RCA plugs where the pin (signal) and return match the wire of the cable - typically pure copper or silver - would have to be better than alloys that include relatively poor conductive metals such as zinc or tin.
Impedance only has a bearing on the ground return part of the signal where to lower S/N noise ideally you need the ground return to have a much lower impedance than the signal "hot" pin. The main signal is usually going from low impedance output into high impedance input, so the impedance of the signal cable at the RCA is less of an issue since many inputs are 10 to 10KOhms or more anyway. There is a difference between plugs imho, otherwise I'd only be offering one plug and several cables in my ranges. most of this differnece I put down to electrical connectivity, shielding (where critical such as on phono plugs for TT to phono-stage) and ground return impedance. Not all plugs are equal ;)
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