View Full Version : What is so special about vintage Tannoys????
l am getting fed up reading about vintage Tannoys:D, as a person who has never had the pleasure to hear a pair, can any AOSers please educate me as to why they seem to have such a cult following- and do l need to listen to a pair?:)
Yes you need to listen to a pair. One will only give you mono ;)
I think the thing is with the big Tannoys is that although they are far from perfect, like most large loudspeakers, their reproduction is so effortless that once you have experienced it then it is hard to go back to a little 2-way bookshelf system that has to force the sound out by comparison. Another advantage is that they are not so bothered about the room or placement. They don't boom even when up against a wall in a small room, something I had been told but just didn't believe until I heard it for myself.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 15:21
Come up and have a listen... your very welcome. :)
Gordon Steadman
31-05-2014, 15:23
Not sure really. My organ tutor (behave) used to have a pair of Tannoys and whilst they were indeed, very effective with some of the lower registers, I preferred the LS3 5As with the mid and treble - he had both and we used to swap them around for fun.
I preferred the Quads then and I assume I still would, although I do use a sub nowadays.
Horses for courses perhaps.
PS. And of course, you need to listen to some to see if you like them:)
Come up and have a listen... your very welcome. :)
Joe, l have seen your room, and if l was not going to work , l would be up like a shot to hear your system.:eek:
Audio Al
31-05-2014, 16:13
You can listen to my Tannoy Cheviot's when I get around to re foaming them :rolleyes::doh:
walpurgis
31-05-2014, 16:21
l am getting fed up reading about vintage Tannoys:D, as a person who has never had the pleasure to hear a pair, can any AOSers please educate me as to why they seem to have such a cult following- and do l need to listen to a pair?:)
Drop by for a cuppa and a listen Andy, you're not that far away. Speaking as somebody who has heard most of the respected Tannoys, I'd say mine are outstanding. Happy to give you a demo (or anybody else on here). If you've not heard a good pair then I reckon you'll be rather amazed.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 16:26
I'll give this a try... lol
Well they have a cult following because they are extremely nice sounding speakers. They have a rich history/provenance as you may know so putting them back on duty and feeding them a decent signal is something many people enjoy. You do need to hear some really.
The presentation of the old dual concentric drivers is different to the split 2/3way. This presentation gives a more accurate sound representation with all of the information coming from a single point source. They have great presence and weight. They can do all genre's of music too, rock and delicacy.
The thing with them is that you do have to do some tweaking, so a bit the old DIY is generally necessary to get the very best out of them but this is more like a journey in to how they sound which is also interesting for some.
For example, for the 15" drivers the cabinets that Tannoy originally made for the range are great but the smaller cabs could be moooooch better. Lockwood made the professional cabinets so those are the babies to get, if you can. Another point is that generally the crossovers are now more than ripe for an update/upgrade too. Although this can cost £50 - £££££'s so that's up to budgets. Again, it's a journey thing. In the right cabs they have an amazing frequency response.
On a whole the vintage tannoy's (eg. Monitor Golds) can still hold it together extremely well. Tannoy still make drivers that use practically the same design and they use them in the prestige range. But for me using the vintage drivers doesn't take anything away from the music, in fact it adds more feeling. In a way it brings back the importance of how bands like Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Stones etc...etc. mixed and heard it for themselves on the day of the approved down mix.
A superb sound with some romance thrown in if you like.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 16:34
Drop by for a cuppa and a listen Andy, you're not that far away. Speaking as somebody who has heard most of the respected Tannoys, I'd say mine are outstanding. Happy to give you a demo (or anybody else on here). If you've not heard a good pair then I reckon you'll be rather amazed.
Yes.. this is a must really. Get to listen to some that have been sorted... not a shabby pair from grannies attic.
FYI.. the drivers are not the things that need attention (unless they are damaged obviously) but rather the cabs, crossovers and decent source/amplification which goes without saying.
If the drivers are damaged, Lockwood and Tannoy still service them, re-cone & align so that's another great thing about them.
Tannoys...not for everyone.
In the right cabs and with the right crossovers, they can sound very enjoyable. Accurate? Nope, not by a long chalk, but enjoyable. That's not to say they can't be detailed and incisive, because they can be. They do theough have an impedance curve like the Alps and an acoustic response which is...err, interesting ;) However, they do sound enjoyable and have endeared themselves to countless thousands of enthusiasts over the years.
If you like big effortless scale, a nice (albeit coloured) midrange and can house them, then vintage Tannoys can sound pretty respectable.
Many judge them after listening to worn out examples in poorly made highly resonant cabinets which do nothing for the sound. Unfortunately, this applies to many cabinets made in the 60's and '70s. My favourites include the 12 inch HPDs and Golds in Chatsworth cabs (more domestically acceptable than many) and some of the York and Canterbury cabinet designs.
Decent crossovers, as Joe points out, are a must and the one curse of many Tannoy set ups can be crossovers lashed up from "values found on the web" few of which are right, particularly where fixed inductors are used in place of autoformers.
15 Golds give decent bass, as do 12 inch HPDs (their response is very similar) and 15 inch HPDs also give excellent bass response although many prefer the 15MG.
The 12 inch HPD goes much lower and has higher power handling than the 12 inch MG.
10 inch vintage DC's may be cute but there's little esle to recommend them unless you like listening to the mids and don't much care about bass...'cause they haven't got any.
You need to listen to a set rather than have someone convince you. Preferably, you need to listen to as many different ones as possible to get a flavour for just how important the differences in cabinet/crossover designs are.
You may love them or hate them but I doubt you'd fall in between! They do tend to be a "marmite" speaker, but done well, can be mighty impressive.
Modern Prestige variants imho are certainly no better than the older drivers and in some ways, I think they sound worse as the horn resonance issues and time delay circuit added to correct phase in the newer units I think makes them sound less coherent than say an HPD with a decent crossover.
I will go against the trend of agreeing that they sound great in small spaces...my experience has been the opposite when played at anything over moderate levels. The bigger ones move a lot of air and if your room modes correspond in the bass, they can sound very boomy. They can be placed close to walls but like all speakers, avoiding equi-distant placement between side walls and rear walls is probably a good way of reducing the risk of boom. You can listen close up and personal though and I do think that this is why so many see their way into smaller rooms (look at the demand in Japan asnd Hong Kong for all things Tannoy!). Their design represents a true point source so they can be used almost near field, one of the reasons I suspect they were popular in studios too; that and the fact they can go very loud!
walpurgis
31-05-2014, 17:46
10 inch vintage DC's may be cute but there's little esle to recommend them unless you like listening to the mids and don't much care about bass...'cause they haven't got any.
Don't entirely agree. The ten inch IIILZ is pretty limited and output drops off rapidly below about 60 Hz, but the HPD 295A has a decent enough bass output. Lets face it by most people's standards a ten inch bass driver is big! I've always fancied trying a pair of 295s in transmission line cabinets. I reckon they'd give 'the big boys' a run for their money. They certainly sound very good and have that true Tannoy sound. I actually prefer the ten inch HPD to the twelve inch HPD and Gold units.
jandl100
31-05-2014, 17:50
Tannoys? - I hates them with a passion. Awful things.
But some people like them, but then some people like marmite. :wowzer:
Come up and have a listen... your very welcome. :)
Ditto - get yer arse up here, daftee, and have a listen-ette for yourself! I *promise* that you won't forget the experience! :eyebrows:
You can also compare them to the Celestion 66s, using the same system, but in a different (much bigger room)......
Marco.
chris@panteg
31-05-2014, 18:17
I've had the pleasure of listening to Paul's Fidelio's ,as he says ' not for everyone ' I would say just make sure your house foundations are sound , a bit of underpinning may be required in certain circumstances :eyebrows:
Accurate? Nope, not by a long chalk, but enjoyable. That's not to say they can't be detailed and incisive, because they can be. They do theough have an impedance curve like the Alps and an acoustic response which is...err, interesting. However, they do sound enjoyable and have endeared themselves to countless thousands of enthusiasts over the years.
If you like big effortless scale, a nice (albeit coloured) midrange and can house them, then vintage Tannoys can sound pretty respectable.
Interesting description, Paul, and one obviously based on your extensive experience.
However, I don't get the 'coloured/non-accurate' thing, as that's not what I'm hearing here, with my Lockwood Majors, nor what I've heard from Anthony's Kensingtons, Ian's Canterburys, or even Joe's Lockwoods - all of which for me sound musically accurate/realistic, or as 'accurate' in that sense as any transducers can reasonably be within the obvious limitations of what are unquestionably the most inaccurate components in the music reproduction chain.
The Lockwoods were, after all, used in numerous recordings studios - and not because the engineers wanted to wallow in euphonic coloration! ;)
Measurements aside, I can certainly hear no obvious coloration when my LMs are reproducing 'real world' recordings of acoustic instruments or full-scale orchestral pieces, as I have considerable experience of listening to both genres of music live, and therefore would rather quickly know if the sound I'm hearing at home massively deviated from what I've heard at concerts.
I find that 'well-sorted' big Tannoy DCs offer superb insight into all recordings of music. It was that magical 'hear through' quality/musical insight that attracted me to Tannoy DCs in the first place when I heard a pair of Devons, on the end of my system, quite a few years ago now.
Out of interest, would you consider Celestion 66 Studio Monitors as being especially coloured sounding?
As far as I'm aware, they aren't known to be. Because, I can tell you that, aside from out-and-out scale, the sound produced from my 66s, downstairs in the lounge, which measures 7 x 6m, has an overall similar sonic signature (in terms of musical accuracy), to what I get from the Lockwood Majors upstairs (in a much smaller room), driven by the same system.... Essentially, the 'bones' of how music is reproduced is the same.
When I took most of my system to the Wam show at Scalford Hall, three years ago, as part of an overall AoS system, with the 66s hooked onto the end, our system was voted one of the best at the show - indeed we had some rave comments from lots of people, and that wasn't because the sound was coloured... And like I say, my system sounds remarkably similar, reproduced through either the Lockwoods or the 66s...
I think at some point you *really* need to come up here for a listen, and judge the sound I've got going on, and where it sits in terms of your definition of 'coloured', because I suspect that, in that respect, were singing from a slightly different hymn sheet. In any case, I'd honestly value your opinion, and it would help put into perspective the (sometimes diametrically opposed) views we have here about very similar equipment! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
31-05-2014, 19:03
I have a big pair of Tannoys and agree with prety much all thats been said. They produce a big sound with very little effort.
Floyddroid
31-05-2014, 19:18
I find myself agreeing with you Paul. I have a pair of the D900's and they are amazing in the mid. They are not exactly lacking in the bass but their appearance is deceptive. having two bloody big drivers in them you expect them to have earth shattering bass but they don't. They are extemely musical and for that i love them. I am considering a sub though.
Tannoys...not for everyone.
In the right cabs and with the right crossovers, they can sound very enjoyable. Accurate? Nope, not by a long chalk, but enjoyable. That's not to say they can't be detailed and incisive, because they can be. They do theough have an impedance curve like the Alps and an acoustic response which is...err, interesting ;) However, they do sound enjoyable and have endeared themselves to countless thousands of enthusiasts over the years.
If you like big effortless scale, a nice (albeit coloured) midrange and can house them, then vintage Tannoys can sound pretty respectable.
Many judge them after listening to worn out examples in poorly made highly resonant cabinets which do nothing for the sound. Unfortunately, this applies to many cabinets made in the 60's and '70s. My favourites include the 12 inch HPDs and Golds in Chatsworth cabs (more domestically acceptable than many) and some of the York and Canterbury cabinet designs.
Decent crossovers, as Joe points out, are a must and the one curse of many Tannoy set ups can be crossovers lashed up from "values found on the web" few of which are right, particularly where fixed inductors are used in place of autoformers.
15 Golds give decent bass, as do 12 inch HPDs (their response is very similar) and 15 inch HPDs also give excellent bass response although many prefer the 15MG.
The 12 inch HPD goes much lower and has higher power handling than the 12 inch MG.
10 inch vintage DC's may be cute but there's little esle to recommend them unless you like listening to the mids and don't much care about bass...'cause they haven't got any.
You need to listen to a set rather than have someone convince you. Preferably, you need to listen to as many different ones as possible to get a flavour for just how important the differences in cabinet/crossover designs are.
You may love them or hate them but I doubt you'd fall in between! They do tend to be a "marmite" speaker, but done well, can be mighty impressive.
Modern Prestige variants imho are certainly no better than the older drivers and in some ways, I think they sound worse as the horn resonance issues and time delay circuit added to correct phase in the newer units I think makes them sound less coherent than say an HPD with a decent crossover.
I will go against the trend of agreeing that they sound great in small spaces...my experience has been the opposite when played at anything over moderate levels. The bigger ones move a lot of air and if your room modes correspond in the bass, they can sound very boomy. They can be placed close to walls but like all speakers, avoiding equi-distant placement between side walls and rear walls is probably a good way of reducing the risk of boom. You can listen close up and personal though and I do think that this is why so many see their way into smaller rooms (look at the demand in Japan asnd Hong Kong for all things Tannoy!). Their design represents a true point source so they can be used almost near field, one of the reasons I suspect they were popular in studios too; that and the fact they can go very loud!
Don't entirely agree. The ten inch IIILZ is pretty limited and output drops off rapidly below about 60 Hz, but the HPD 295A has a decent enough bass output. Lets face it by most people's standards a ten inch bass driver is big! I've always fancied trying a pair of 295s in transmission line cabinets. I reckon they'd give 'the big boys' a run for their money. They certainly sound very good and have that true Tannoy sound. I actually prefer the ten inch HPD to the twelve inch HPD and Gold units.
Granted Geoff. The HPDs aren't so bad but the MG10's are fairly lightweight by comparison. They may be 10 inch but aren't that long a throw and the MG surrounds didn't allow as low an Fs as the HPD versions. I've always been impressed by the MG15's but rarely by the 10's or 12's.
@ Marco RE the 66's. I wouldn't call those especially accurate either but must admit, in many ways I do prefer them to some Tannoys. They have clout, and I reckon are cleaner in the mids partly because they don't have to cope with horn resonance. They're a classic speaker with as much a following and rightly so, as many Tannoys. Accuracy isn't everything though as listening enviromments tailor response as much as anything and some things that the Tannoys do well, they do exceptionally well (big effortless scale, great point source imaging). It's not a criticism so much as a point of fact. Some will find them endearing and once heard will not go back. Others will want something different. I like both my Tannoy equipped Fidelios and the far more accurate Rhapsodys for very different reasons. The Rhapsodys have astonishing imaging capabilities, can be listened to at low levels without dropping off much in involvement, are pretty much flat within 5dB across their FR and are cleaner in the mids. The Fidelios have stunning scale and wallop when called for, are very imposing (visually and sonically) and do some things incredibly well and I don't expect or need them to be accurate. They just sound good in different ways and will suit some tastes more than others. That's all I was trying to get at.
No worries, Paul - I still think you need to come up here though, just to see what you think. I'd honestly value that. Perhaps after my scheduled trip to yours (which we need to rearrange)? :)
Marco.
Tannoys? - I hates them with a passion. Awful things.
But some people like them, but then some people like marmite. :wowzer:
Ah I bet that's not 100% true Jerry. Wot about that pair at Scalford you had that did the most awesome Eddie Louiss? That was a good pair of Tannoys IMHO.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 20:27
I've always been impressed by the MG15's but rarely by the 10's or 12's.
I beg to differ here on the 12" - But yes the 10" are too weak sounding. IMO the 12's are a great driver, not as much scale and weight as the 15" granted but they do have great bass and speed in the correct cabinets of course. :)
I've tested on 12" and 15" MG's and I still think the 12" are pretty amazing even though the 15s are the pick of the crop.
When done right (with care and attention), matching cabs and updated crossovers (especially externalised crossovers) both 12" & 15" MG's will sound superb.
Jerry, I seem to remember you enjoying some 12" Lancasters at a show once...? - Or was that someone else?
BTH K10A
31-05-2014, 20:48
Tannoys...not for everyone.
10 inch vintage DC's may be cute but there's little else to recommend them unless you like listening to the mids and don't much care about bass...'cause they haven't got any.
Not in the infinite baffle cabinets they're are usually found in, but I have heard 10" reds in home brew front and rear horn loaded cabinets that produced good deep bass and had a better midrange than their larger brethren.
dantheman91
31-05-2014, 20:54
What about opinions on the DC 1000 chaps...........interesting to compare.?
Very different type of speaker, Dan :)
Marco.
EDIT: irrelevant post about non-vintage Tannoy deleted.
Ditto - get yer arse up here, daftee, and have a listen-ette for yourself! I *promise* that you won't forget the experience! :eyebrows:
You can also compare them to the Celestion 66s, using the same system, but in a different (much bigger room)......
Marco.
Cheers for the invites everybody...... they produce a big, effortless sound.:eek: Sound promising.:)
All yer needs to do now, daftee-chops, is to take up some of the invites - ees da only way ta learn! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
01-06-2014, 06:20
Cheers for the invites everybody...... they produce a big, effortless sound.:eek: Sound promising.:)
no probs... if your ever up this way, give us a bell. :)
I beg to differ here on the 12" - But yes the 10" are too weak sounding. IMO the 12's are a great driver, not as much scale and weight as the 15" granted but they do have great bass and speed in the correct cabinets of course. :)
I've tested on 12" and 15" MG's and I still think the 12" are pretty amazing even though the 15s are the pick of the crop.
When done right (with care and attention), matching cabs and updated crossovers (especially externalised crossovers) both 12" & 15" MG's will sound superb.
Jerry, I seem to remember you enjoying some 12" Lancasters at a show once...? - Or was that someone else?
:)
We can agree to disagree here then Joe as I've never been overly taken with 12 inch MGs on the bass department with the exception of the later and rarer RS versions (rubber surrounds). Lovely mids though. A quick peek at the spec sheets reveals that they have a much higher Fs than their HPD equivalents and even in large cabs, simply cannot generate the bass of a HPD which to my mind remain the better sounding driver. Every Tannoy enthusiast I know has their particular favourites, so there's no right or wrong answer, it's all a matter of personal taste. For me, the HPD remains as my Tannoy driver of choice.
The comments RE 10 inch drivers are more based upon the standard sealed box offerings they originally came in, but the HPD 10's in vented enclosures can deliver a decent lower register. Again, I cannot say the same for the MG10. It's simple physics at the end of the day, and with the surrounds used on the MG, the Fs remained limited for all but the RS versions. The 15's are a different story.
The Black Adder
01-06-2014, 07:11
:)
We can agree to disagree here then Joe as I've never been overly taken with 12 inch MGs on the bass department with the exception of the later and rarer RS versions (rubber surrounds). Lovely mids though. A quick peek at the spec sheets reveals that they have a much higher Fs than their HPD equivalents and even in large cabs, simply cannot generate the bass of a HPD which to my mind remain the better sounding driver. Every Tannoy enthusiast I know has their particular favourites, so there's no right or wrong answer, it's all a matter of personal taste. For me, the HPD remains as my Tannoy driver of choice.
The comments RE 10 inch drivers are more based upon the standard sealed box offerings they originally came in, but the HPD 10's in vented enclosures can deliver a decent lower register. Again, I cannot say the same for the MG10. It's simple physics at the end of the day, and with the surrounds used on the MG, the Fs remained limited for all but the RS versions. The 15's are a different story.
Well, nowt wrong with a bit of difference, matey! :)
The HPD's do have better bass but for me they can sometimes sound just a tad overblown in that department, not as lean and fast.... but again these things can fit with some and not with others systems, rooms etc.
jandl100
01-06-2014, 07:28
Ah I bet that's not 100% true Jerry. Wot about that pair at Scalford you had that did the most awesome Eddie Louiss? That was a good pair of Tannoys IMHO.
Ah, but by about 3pm I was thoroughly and utterly sick of them.
Insidious colourations just creep up and make them unlistenable for me.
Admittedly, most Tannoys have far less staying power than those, so yes they were good - for Tannoys!
I've heard a lot of Tannoy DC implementations and I couldn't live with any of them. Paul's Fidelios are the best of the bunch, though; probably the best that can be done with a fundamentally flawed driver type.
... IMO ;) :lol:
The Black Adder
01-06-2014, 07:42
Insidious colourations just creep up and make them unlistenable for me.
I simply can't think how you came to that unless there was something amiss with them which could be possible. I can't remember what version you heard, in what cabs, crossovers, amplification but I thought you rated them. But each to their own, lol.. :)
anthonyTD
01-06-2014, 08:38
All speakers are flawed in some way or another, just like the humans who designed and built them,you picks your poison etc...;)
A...
The Black Adder
01-06-2014, 08:51
All speakers are flawed in some way or another, just like the humans who designed and built them,you picks your poison etc...;)
A...
Indeedy! :)
Al speakers are compromised, yes, but the Tannoys are less of a compromise than most, hence their popularity. Having said that If someone offered me a pair of 15 inch Tannoy DC as a straight swap for my Akais I would probably decline. I'd have to try them out in my own room but I think the Akai have the edge in the midrange by quite a margin. I imagine NS1000M owners would say the same thing.
jandl100
01-06-2014, 09:05
All speakers are flawed in some way or another, just like the humans who designed and built them,you picks your poison etc...;)
A...
For the last 20 minutes since Anthony's post I've been trying to think of a brand of speaker that irritates, annoys & plain drives me crazy as much as Tannoys .... nope, I can't think of one!
I'm sure that others would have the same problem with some favourites of mine. :)
I have never heard a pair of Tannoys apart when I was at a sporting event back in the 80,s and they were 20 feet up a pole telling the crowd results.:)
I'm sure that others would have the same problem with some favourites of mine. :)
I can't wait to hear a pair of MBLs. If I think they're pish, trust me, you'll never hear the end of it!!! :lol: :lol: :ner:
Marco.
Audio Al
01-06-2014, 10:12
For the last 20 minutes since Anthony's post I've been trying to think of a brand of speaker that irritates, annoys & plain drives me crazy as much as Tannoys .... nope, I can't think of one!
Amstrad or Binatone :lol:
anthonyTD
01-06-2014, 10:38
Ahhh, Amstrad, i have fond memories of one of those super duper tower systems,from the very early 1980's,:eek:However' i think it was mainly the music, and the girl i was with at the time though why it sticks in my mind more than the System itself!!!;)
Amstrad or Binatone :lol:
The Black Adder
01-06-2014, 11:01
lol... yes I remember the ones in the mid 80's... I always seem to remember the cassette doors having no damper so when you pressed eject the door flung open like lightning and sometimes firing the cassette in to your lap... Ahh..!
I had a Crown system, it had quad sound and I loved it... although the quality was on a par with Amstrad and 'Bin'atone.
PaulStewart
01-06-2014, 11:29
Just to add something into the mix, I have the 12" MG rubber surround versions in Lockwood cabs. To my mind I find they have a little more speed and pace at the expense of ultimate bass but not a lot. Mine started their journey at BBC Bristol, went to a commercial studio there, I think it was Mushroom studios and then to me. All of the professionals I have spoken to who used them, loved them. Andy if you are in wild west London, feel free to come and have a listen.
walpurgis
01-06-2014, 11:33
What about opinions on the DC 1000 chaps...........interesting to compare.?
I had a pair of DC1000s for a while. They were good fun, but not very accurate tonally. They imaged well and had plenty of punch, but were nowhere near as clean or transparent as the later System 600 and System 800 for instance. The DC1000 is rather coloured through the midrange, due to the undamped plastic cone. They are usually cheap and certainly worth having for around £100, which is what they seem to fetch now. Just don't expect them to sound like a proper 'pepperpot' driver. The DC1000 is actually less muddled through the mid than the bigger DC2000.
dantheman91
01-06-2014, 15:37
I had a pair of DC1000s for a while. They were good fun, but not very accurate tonally. They imaged well and had plenty of punch, but were nowhere near as clean or transparent as the later System 600 and System 800 for instance. The DC1000 is rather coloured through the midrange, due to the undamped plastic cone. They are usually cheap and certainly worth having for around £100, which is what they seem to fetch now. Just don't expect them to sound like a proper 'pepperpot' driver. The DC1000 is actually less muddled through the mid than the bigger DC2000.
Hi Geoff
Its interesting they do sound better the further away you are from them....I can see why their coloured and sometimes i don't like it for instance of some recordings they sound good then others its just dire i gave them to my dad to try he likes them he's also a classic TANNOY fan like yourself he's using them with a Quad 33 & 405. So their not like proper tannoys in the popular sense of the word i'm not sure i like them myself as i prefer my rogers but thats just me.
So their not like proper tannoys in the popular sense of the word i'm not sure i like them myself as i prefer my rogers but thats just me.
Hi Dan,
I'd suggest that "proper tannoys" equate to anything that features Monitor Black, Silver, Red, Gold, or HPD drivers. Essentially, therefore we’re talking about late-40s to 70s vintage stuff, or anything in the current Prestige range. The rest, IMO, don't really cut it or deserve the name of 'Tannoy' :)
Marco.
julesd68
01-06-2014, 16:35
Cheers for the invites everybody...... they produce a big, effortless sound.:eek: Sound promising.:)
Another invite for you Andy - I have the 12" HPD's you can have a listen to - not far from you in North London ...
"What is so special about Vintage Tannoys?"
It's a good question - I've heard a whole bunch of them and I'm sorry to say the answer still eludes me - we all have a different sound in our heads I guess.
walpurgis
01-06-2014, 18:41
Hi Dan,
I'd suggest that "proper tannoys" equates to anything that features Monitor Black, Silver, Red, Gold, or HPD drivers. Essentially, therefore we’re talking about late-40s to 70s vintage stuff, or anything in the current Prestige range. The rest, IMO, don't really cut it or deserve the name of 'Tannoy' :)
Marco.
The later seventies ceramic magnet pepperpot drivers may surprise you Marco. I've had various Golds and HPDs, but my current Cheviots sport the ceramic magnet 3128 driver that replaced the HPD315A and to my ears, having owned both, the later driver is superior. These sound like 'Proper Tannoys' all right. The bass is deep and firm, the midrange has the signature clarity and depth and the top end is cleaner than I ever recalled the earlier drivers having.
I don't doubt it, Geoff, hence why I included 70s Tannoys (the whole of the 1970s) as representing an era where 'proper' ones were made... ;)
The stuff I don't rate is the designs from the 80s and most of the 90s, especially anything that features more than just one (big) dual-concentric driver per box. Multiple-driver Tannoys, for me, aren't 'proper' Tannoys! :nono:
Marco.
walpurgis
01-06-2014, 18:54
The stuff I don't rate is the designs from the 80s and most of the 90s, especially anything that features more than one big dual-concentric driver. Multiple-driver Tannoys, for me, aren't 'proper' Tannoys! :nono:
Marco.
I very much agree. Every multiple driver Tannoy I've heard has just not sounded right in my book.
BTH K10A
01-06-2014, 19:13
I very much agree. Every multiple driver Tannoy I've heard has just not sounded right in my book.
I always thought the Kingdom Royals sounded pretty amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dStBwz9BqCk
Andy, I heard them at a show once (Whittlebury Hall, I think) and they sounded 'ok', but for the price, certainly nothing that special.
The (Tannoy Canterbury) owing friend who was with me, upon leaving the room, turned to me and asked if I'd swap my LMs for them, and I asked him the same question, in reference to his Canterburys, and our resounding response was 'no'...
Of course, that was in an alien hotel room, with alien partnering equipment, playing tinkly-winkly pish music, so it would be rather bad form to arrive at any definitive conclusions.
Marco.
Andy, I heard them at a show once (Whittlebury Hall, I think) and they sounded 'ok', but for the price, certainly nothing that special.
The (Tannoy Canterbury) owing friend who was with me, upon leaving the room, turned to me and asked if I'd swap my LMs for them, and I asked him the same question, in reference to his Canterburys, and our resounding response was 'no'...
Of course, that was in an alien hotel room, with alien partnering equipment, playing tinkly-winkly pish music, so it would be rather bad form to arrive at any definitive conclusions.
Marco.
Agreed - they're very much room dependent and listening position dependent. Audio shows are never the best place to judge a product or system though, so I mustn't be too adamant in my opinion.
Another invite for you Andy - I have the 12" HPD's you can have a listen to - not far from you in North London ...
Whereabouts Julien? Or l can PM you.:eek:
jandl100
02-06-2014, 06:17
I can't wait to hear a pair of MBLs. If I think they're pish, trust me, you'll never hear the end of it!!! :lol: :lol: :ner:
Marco.
Well, if you're ever in the neighbourhood of the lovely Forest of Dean let's arrange a sesh. :)
It's got to be done, dude. However, it's unlikely that I'll ever be 'in the neighbourhood', for no reason, so let's plan something :cool:
Marco.
julesd68
02-06-2014, 10:01
Whereabouts Julien? Or l can PM you.:eek:
I'm in Highgate N6 - drop me a PM if you'd like to arrange a visit...
I'm in Highgate N6 - drop me a PM if you'd like to arrange a visit...
Ok mate will do.:)
PaulStewart
06-06-2014, 00:22
The stuff I don't rate is the designs from the 80s and most of the 90s, especially anything that features more than just one (big) dual-concentric driver per box. Multiple-driver Tannoys, for me, aren't 'proper' Tannoys! :nono: Marco.
Plus 1 to that :lol:
Was round at Tom's yesterday listening to his HPD Tannoys.
Tom flooded me with loads of classical music - not my bag but the sound was so pleasant I wasn't too worried about it.
Then we put some real music on at highish volume. Damned fine sound, and even Tom remarked he couldn't believe what they were doing. Power was via my Bill Beard 100, which I favoured quite a bit driving them over the Lyngdorf Tom uses. Definitely far more spacious sounding and basically more pleasant. Some real balls in the bass too - and enough power to easily achieve high SPLs with finesse and control. Tom needs to glue down some of the objects in his room, though, as some annoying vibrations were heard:D
For the kind if music I listen too, I thought the Beard was blinking brilliant with the Tannoys. Mind you I like that amp a lot. Tom, being delusional (LOL) seems to be after some 2A3 magic or something... but did remark he was really quite impressed with the Beard. I don't think he'll find a 2A3 amp with the sheer balls of the Beard, but I don't think that is really what he is after anyway. He seems to like quite light weight classical.
The speakers are 92DB and we did get some mains tranny noise coming through. The Beard isn't faulty but as usual when you use speakers of this sensitivity your amp needs to be damned quiet not to hear anything when the gain is pumped up high and no music is playing. When listening, I found no issues and I don't believe Tom did either. So it is quiet enough.
These are the best Tannoys I have ever heard. Cab design by Paul at RFC, who also did the crossovers, but has never heard the speaker!
The Tannoys were very pleasant to llsten to with perhaps a touch of colouration trouble in the upper mid/HF area, but could certainly shift some air and go reasonably low. Stacks of resolution was delivered just effortlessly in a highly pleasing manner. After only a few tracks I was telling Tom I really liked them. Because I really did!
Tom's AN DAC 4.1, which was a kit, has some pretty special parts in now, sounded excellent, but clearly quite different I think, to another AN 4.1 I know.
Smart system. Tom just needs to dump the Lyngdorf and get a better amp in when funds allow.
The Black Adder
07-06-2014, 17:11
The hum you mentioned will be most likely down to the coupling effect of the mains transformer on the amp. I had the same issue hence my amp now having an off-board PSU. Nothing wrong with the amp as you stated.
Glad you liked the tannoy sound. :)
I really need to get over to Tom's and listen to my creations!:lol:
Same crossover I designed for the Fidelios with similar (a bit higher) cab tuning. I'd imagined that the Beard would have been a good match Justin and sounds like you liked the combination. If not the power supply causing it, the hum could also have been an earth loop, sometimes occurring when mixing/matching pre/power amps where both may have inadequate earth lift circuitry for the signal earth. Could also be the power amp power supply tranny as Joe mentions.
Using ProAc 2.5s and Martin Logan Aerius speakers, no hum issues to speak of using said amp.
They don't sound that similar to the Fidelios Paul. But you wouldn't expect them too really they're quite different. Bass isn't as extended, but that isn't that much of an issue for Tom and you didn't design them to do so.
They can't shift as much air as my Apogees but that's not surprising given the massive difference in surface area of the bass driver, but they have a damned respectable stab at moving some. They are definitely an easier listen as the Apogees tend to blow your mind in a bit of an intense manner at volume. Just a very enjoyable speaker I think. A pleasure to listen to. Not right for me but everyone likes different things.
hifinutt
07-06-2014, 18:06
friend of mine has built a MASSIVE organ in his bedroom [yes I kid you not!], it is up to the ceiling and it has tannoy vintage speakers , dc2000 I think and it has a subwoofer
the depth of sound is so real you almost think you are listening to real church organ
unbelievably good ,
montesquieu
08-06-2014, 11:13
Justin's visit to Chateau Montesquieu was a pretty unusual (and surprisingly enjoyable) one, most people who come are pretty like minded in musical taste, Justin brought stuff I'd never even think of listening to and played it at volumes I didn't think my system (or my eardrums) could go to (he's right about the rattles though I was starting to be concerned about the joists - seriously - as I have a very large 6 x 4 cubes record rack in the corner and I do worry about the weight).
Apart from the fact that the Beard utterly impressed - fantastic grip and really tuneful as well - what struck me was the articulation in the low bass from the Canterbury cabs which I hadn't heard simply because I hadn't put that sort of music through them. Remarkably 3D as well.
When Paul and I discussed the plans he told me it would have been possible from the Canterbury design, by adjusting volume and vent arrangements, to wring another 10hz or so (half an octave) at the bottom, but at the loss of some impact. We decided on the balance point as it is because it suits my music really well. But the fact is they do actualy go pretty low and they are impactful across the whole range. Of course they do the tannoy point source phase coherence thing as well which expresses itself in really natural vocals and so on.
The HPDs gave me an octave lower than the Golds without any loss of sweetness, something that surprised me as I had always been a fan (and for 5-6 years, a user) of Golds. I put this down to Paul's attention to detail in values, matching and components in the crossovers. In the right cabinet (including, obviously, this one) and using an amp with enough grip (which unfortunately rules out a lot 12-20w valve stuff that works really well with Golds) I'd put the 12in HPDs up against my old 15in Golds and call them at least equal - something I never thought I'd say.
Anyway I'm off to try and find that dubstep album that so impressed!
Was round at Tom's yesterday listening to his HPD Tannoys.
Tom flooded me with loads of classical music - not my bag but the sound was so pleasant I wasn't too worried about it.
Then we put some real music on at highish volume. Damned fine sound, and even Tom remarked he couldn't believe what they were doing. Power was via my Bill Beard 100, which I favoured quite a bit driving them over the Lyngdorf Tom uses. Definitely far more spacious sounding and basically more pleasant. Some real balls in the bass too - and enough power to easily achieve high SPLs with finesse and control. Tom needs to glue down some of the objects in his room, though, as some annoying vibrations were heard:D
For the kind if music I listen too, I thought the Beard was blinking brilliant with the Tannoys. Mind you I like that amp a lot. Tom, being delusional (LOL) seems to be after some 2A3 magic or something... but did remark he was really quite impressed with the Beard. I don't think he'll find a 2A3 amp with the sheer balls of the Beard, but I don't think that is really what he is after anyway. He seems to like quite light weight classical.
The speakers are 92DB and we did get some mains tranny noise coming through. The Beard isn't faulty but as usual when you use speakers of this sensitivity your amp needs to be damned quiet not to hear anything when the gain is pumped up high and no music is playing. When listening, I found no issues and I don't believe Tom did either. So it is quiet enough.
These are the best Tannoys I have ever heard. Cab design by Paul at RFC, who also did the crossovers, but has never heard the speaker!
The Tannoys were very pleasant to llsten to with perhaps a touch of colouration trouble in the upper mid/HF area, but could certainly shift some air and go reasonably low. Stacks of resolution was delivered just effortlessly in a highly pleasing manner. After only a few tracks I was telling Tom I really liked them. Because I really did!
Tom's AN DAC 4.1, which was a kit, has some pretty special parts in now, sounded excellent, but clearly quite different I think, to another AN 4.1 I know.
Smart system. Tom just needs to dump the Lyngdorf and get a better amp in when funds allow.
The Black Adder
08-06-2014, 11:41
The HPDs gave me an octave lower than the Golds without any loss of sweetness, something that surprised me as I had always been a fan (and for 5-6 years, a user) of Golds. I put this down to Paul's attention to detail in values, matching and components in the crossovers.
Not sure what you mean here... an octave lower? Or do you just mean more prominent sub-bass?
If it's the latter then I'd say that the cabinet had more to do with it than the crossovers. Unless of course your previous crossovers didn't have the correct values maybe?
montesquieu
08-06-2014, 17:04
Not sure what you mean here... an octave lower? Or do you just mean more prominent sub-bass?
If it's the latter then I'd say that the cabinet had more to do with it than the crossovers. Unless of course your previous crossovers didn't have the correct values maybe?
Same cabs, initially same crossovers though Paul later tweaked them to more precisely match the HPD315 as opposed to the 12in Gold. The improvement with the HPDs in place was dramatic - perceptively LOWER bass (not just more impactful, though I suppose what's really going on is a better curve), as Paul had predicted when he did the cab designs - with no loss in all the previous 12in Gold virtues. I had been very reluctant to believe this being a champion of Golds for such a long time but it really was night and day.
I think it's something to do with F's and Q's and all that stuff that I don't quite follow. Anyway the 12in HPDs in the Canterburys now go considerably lower than my 15in Golds in the GRF cabs but are just as nice in all the good stuff that the GRFs did.
Anyway Joe I'm sure you are right it's primarily an issue of interaction with the cabs and drivers, my point about crossovers was that like you I've heard HPDs sound worse than Golds, and from what I've experienced since, I'm sure that the heart of that particular problem was a combination of wrong crossovers (there are as you know several duff circuits doing the rounds - I've heard a few of them) and wrong amplification as the Golds can get away with a lot less welly/grip than the HPDs.
Fix both and my experience is that the 12in HPDs are superior to the 12in Golds and equal to 15in Golds(which is what Paul told me at the outset of all this, except I was reluctant to believe him without evidence of my own ears).
The Black Adder
08-06-2014, 17:30
Indeed, Tom.
There are certainly some incorrect crossover circuits, I currently have a set I'm de-Troelsing for a customer.. lol :) It's using standard stuff in there apart from the high/mid-range which has some money spent on it. This is the third de-troelsed xover I've done in the past year.
Amplification is the key with these speakers as much as the cabs and crossovers. The BB amp is a good one. Try and get that hum sorted though.
Glad Paul finally sorted you out though matey... he's a good un :)
jandl100
08-06-2014, 17:49
Anyway I'm off to try and find that dubstep album that so impressed!
What was that, then? :)
What was that, then? :)
http://www.ariwa.com/dubstore/ariwa-cds/aricd-245-2/
IMHO it isn't really dubstep at all. You actually heard a couple of tracks back at Kev's bake off.
There are loads of Mad Prof albums - they vary in quality but the sonics are astounding on the vast majority.
Another fave of mine is Dub Maniacs on the Rampage (http://www.ariwa.com/dubstore/ariwa-cds/aricd-075/).
Spotify has some Mad Prof. Even at 320Kbps (not Jerry, though:D) you are in for a treat.
Re Bill Beard hum. At the repair man's house zero hum I could hear with his PMCs. Something strange going on at Toms. It's hi-fi and strange things happen. Mess with leads, move things around etc and hum can just disappear. Been there, done that loads of times.
Of course everyone thinks its a faulty amp now, LOL. It isn't. I shouldn't have mentioned it.
montesquieu
08-06-2014, 18:45
[URL="http://www.ariwa.com/dubstore/ariwa-cds/aricd-245-2/"]
Of course everyone thinks its a faulty amp now, LOL. It isn't. I shouldn't have mentioned it.
thanks for the links saves me PM'ing :)
Justin was is sensitive about the hum than I was - it's a valve amp and these are 92db speakers. I've heard far worse here and lived with it. The level we are talking about wasn't a showstopper in my book.
nekoni koban
06-09-2014, 06:49
apropos of nothing much, a nice pic of a Lockwood Major in the Decca London studios circa 1967. (Apologies if it has been posted before.) The Majors came with and without the side handles.. the version without the handles was intended for built-in studio installations, those with the handles usually came with optional wheels and were (obviously..) suitable for moving around.
http://www.philsbook.com/decca_files/Kev_Studio1.jpg
Gordon Steadman
06-09-2014, 07:16
Can someone tell me how these big units cover the midrange? I find it strange that a 12" or 15" speaker with a tweeter in the middle can also do proper mids!! I have a pair of speakers with a 12" bass unit covering up to 3000 htz before handing over to the HF1300 and it only just manages. How do the Tannoys do it so successfully....or do they?
jandl100
06-09-2014, 07:21
....or do they?
Nope ! - nasty colourations in the mids - it's called the "Tannoy Sound". :eyebrows:
The big paper cone will go up into the lower mids with no problem and the horn covers the rest of the frequency range. It's not perfect but then what loudspeaker is? They do so much right you can forgive them doing a little wrong. There is a big difference between an untouched original pair and a set that have been updated in the crossovers, and possibly the cab as well. If you have only ever heard some old, knackered vintage efforts then you haven't really heard them at all.
Lol….. You didn’t disappoint me, Jerry! :eyebrows:
Gordon, it’s a rather difficult thing to describe, sitting typing at a computer. All I can say is that in 30+ years of using all manner of high-quality ‘conventional’ multi-driver speakers, I’ve settled on (15-inch Monitor Gold-based) Lockwood Majors, which to my ears sacrifice nothing in the midrange compared with all the other loudspeakers I’ve owned, including classic BBC-monitor types from Spendor and Harbeth, which are known for having excellent midrange performance.
Furthermore, with also owning a pair of Celestion 66s, which have superb midrange qualities, I can say from experience that the Tannoys do not lose out to them one iota in that area, in fact in some ways, excel further at realistically portraying voices and acoustic instruments.
Also, remember that Tannoy Monitor Reds and Golds were used in many famous recording studios worldwide, for monitoring purposes, where some of the most well-known and celebrated rock music was produced, so it’s rather difficult to imagine how all those fabulous sounding Beatles and Stones albums could’ve been produced, via studio monitor loudspeakers with a deficient midrange!! ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
06-09-2014, 07:53
Nope ! - nasty colourations in the mids - it's called the "Tannoy Sound". :eyebrows:
Aha....I did wonder about that:lol:
The big paper cone will go up into the lower mids with no problem and the horn covers the rest of the frequency range. It's not perfect but then what loudspeaker is? They do so much right you can forgive them doing a little wrong. There is a big difference between an untouched original pair and a set that have been updated in the crossovers, and possibly the cab as well. If you have only ever heard some old, knackered vintage efforts then you haven't really heard them at all.
Indeed! :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
06-09-2014, 07:58
Lol….. You didn’t disappoint me, Jerry! :eyebrows:
Gordon, it’s a rather difficult thing to describe, sitting typing at a computer. All I can say is that in 30+ years of using all manner of high-quality ‘conventional’ multi-driver speakers, I’ve settled on (15-inch Monitor Gold-based) Lockwood Majors, which to my ears sacrifice nothing in the midrange compared with all the other loudspeakers I’ve owned, including classic BBC-monitor types from Spendor and Harbeth, which are known for having excellent midrange performance.
Furthermore, with also owning a pair of Celestion 66s, which have superb midrange qualities, I can say from experience that the Tannoys do not lose out to them one iota in that area, in fact in some ways, excel further at realistically portraying voices and acoustic instruments.
Also, remember that Tannoy Monitor Reds and Golds were used in many famous recording studios worldwide, for monitoring purposes, where some of the most well-known and celebrated rock music was produced, so it’s rather difficult to imagine how all those fabulous sounding Beatles and Stones albums could’ve been produced, via studio monitor loudspeakers with a deficient midrange!! ;)
Marco.
I normally listen to the Quads of course and I would challenge any coned speaker on earth to rival the mids on those. However, on the Teufels, I have just changed the mid ranges from some hi tech titanium jobbies to some old fashioned paper coned JBLs. I don't doubt that the metal drivers measured dead flat but I prefer the sound of the paper by miles. They are probably not 'right', I do wonder if the same applies to Tannoys.
Good read on why big Tannoys work so well from the ever-useful Troels Graveson site:
http://troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm
Well, like Macca says, no speaker is perfect, and that of course includes Tannoys. Although I fully understand where Jerry’s coming from with Tannoy DCs, in terms of coloration (all speakers are coloured to some degree), to my ears, it’s not at the expense of them getting voices and acoustic instruments as fundamentally real sounding as possible.
I also like Quads, and agree that they have superb, very realistic sounding midrange qualities, but after listening to a pair of 57s, or whatever, I never leave thinking ‘jeez, that midrange is so fab it makes my Tannoys sound broken’, plus I couldn’t live with the Quad’s lack of deep, visceral bass and scale, or loudness capabilities, especially when I’m playing some Jane’s Addiction or Tool at ‘gig-type’ listening levels, where Quads simply wouldn’t want to know! :eyebrows: ;)
At the end of the day, with speakers or any other hi-fi components, it’s all about choosing your compromises.
Marco.
Jerry’s heard mine at Scalford, Joe. However, he hasn’t heard them chez-moi, where they do sound rather different. I don’t think it would make a jot of difference though, as Tannoys just aren’t Jerry’s thing.
I don’t have a problem with that :)
Marco.
plus I couldn’t live with the Quad’s lack of deep, visceral bass and scale, or loudness capabilities, especially when I’m playing absolutely everything at ‘gig-type’ listening levels, where Quads simply wouldn’t want to know! :eyebrows: ;)
.
Marco.
fixed that for you Marco ;)
As you say it is all about judging your compromises but Tannoys have very few compared to a lot of speakers which is why they are still hugely popular and possibly even gaining popularity fifty-odd years from inception.
fixed that for you Marco ;)
As you say it is all about judging your compromises but Tannoys have very few compared to a lot of speakers which is why they are still hugely popular and possibly even gaining popularity fifty-odd years from inception.
Hehe, he know me too well!
As for the rest, the evidence is there for all to see. Quite simply, the best equipment always stands the test of time, which is why vintage Tannoy DCs are still highly sought after today :)
Marco.
Incidentally, if you take the rather addictive sonic and musical qualities of you Akais (only more so), and add a goodly extra dollop of scale and bass extension, then that’s pretty much how my Tannoys sound :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
06-09-2014, 08:47
I've only heard one pair of Tannoys. Not sure of the cabinet but they were 15" units. My organ tutor (quite enough of that thank you) at college used them and they sounded pretty good to me. Certainly did the longer pipes quite effectively.
As I tend to listen mostly to baroque and guitar music, the Quads suit me fine and play quite loud enough to sound real.
Strangely, my wife, who is or was, a Judas Priest fan enjoys that style of 'music' on the Quads too although she has been known to turn up the level on the REL at times. So much for my careful balancing act.:rolleyes:
The Teufels do loud and as the big lounge is almost ready, we can soon see how many of the neighbours I can annoy. Aha, see the source of the name now. Just add 'they suit Marco to a 'T' and you have it:lol:
walpurgis
06-09-2014, 09:04
Can someone tell me how these big units cover the midrange? I find it strange that a 12" or 15" speaker with a tweeter in the middle can also do proper mids!! I have a pair of speakers with a 12" bass unit covering up to 3000 htz before handing over to the HF1300 and it only just manages. How do the Tannoys do it so successfully....or do they?
Beautifully! At least, mine do.
The bass and midrange are integrated as well as I've heard from any speaker and the transient response and transparency are second to none.
Most people don't take into account that Tannoy DCs don't use a direct radiator tweeter. It's a horn loaded compression driver and capable of operating down to rather low frequencies. The light diaphragm and huge magnet power add up to superb control.
Well, like Macca says, no speaker is perfect, and that of course includes Tannoys. Although I fully understand where Jerry’s coming from with Tannoy DCs, in terms of coloration (all speakers are coloured to some degree), to my ears, it’s not at the expense of getting voices and acoustic instruments as fundamentally real sounding as possible.
I also like Quads, and agree that they have superb, very realistic sounding midrange qualities, but after listening to a pair of 57s, or whatever, I never leave thinking ‘jeez, that midrange is so fab it makes my Tannoys sound broken’, plus I couldn’t live with the Quad’s lack of deep, visceral bass and scale, or loudness capabilities, especially when I’m playing some Jane’s Addiction or Tool at ‘gig-type’ listening levels, where Quads simply wouldn’t want to know! :eyebrows: ;)
At the end of the day, with speakers or any other hi-fi components, it’s all about choosing your compromises.
Marco.
Hi Marco, how you doing?
I have always been curious about Tannoys but have pursued use of my SP2,s for many years as they do so many things right.
Alan (Firebottle) listened to them recently and was very impressed, he uses Quads and thought in some areas my SP2,s were similar in the midrange, very transparent and realistic. They don,t have the quite the scale of Tannoys but do have some balls in the bass.
When Glenn Croft was assessing stuff many years ago he used Quads, Horns, Harbeths and SP2,s, think he uses stacked Quads now.
Certainly hooked up to my VPI/ 2M Black and Croft 25R+ they sound superb with a live, visceral sound that can make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck.
Might be that old system synergy:) would like to compare them to some Tannoys sometime. One thing for sure these old speaker designs can certainly sound more musical than some of the brave new world offerings out there:lol:
walpurgis
06-09-2014, 09:37
"System synergy" is right. Any amp will drive Tannoys and most will sound horrible through a pair. Class A SS or valves is really the only way.
"System synergy" is right. Any amp will drive Tannoys and most will sound horrible through a pair. Class A SS or valves is really the only way.
What about a super pure sounding Virtue Audio Sensation M901 T amp ( tweaked and on batteries 44wpc?) :eyebrows:
walpurgis
06-09-2014, 12:20
I have actually got a couple of small T amps and surprisingly, they sound pretty good with my Tannoys.
I have actually got a couple of small T amps and surprisingly, they sound pretty good with my Tannoys.
That's the thing with those T-amps. Because they're so tiny and very cheap everyone always says 'surprisingly good' when they actually mean 'surprised it worked at all'. I mean in the same way as if I took your usual amp out of your system and replaced it with a dead rabbit and sound still came out of your speakers you would be 'surprised'.
"System synergy" is right. Any amp will drive Tannoys and most will sound horrible through a pair. Class A SS or valves is really the only way.
I'd not really go along with that at all Geoff. Yes, you have to be picky when selecting an amp to use, but providing you select a well designed amp with enough power, there's abosolutely nothing wrong with a good Class B driving Tannoys. Most valve amps are class A/B anyway but few, in my experience, sound as good with Tannoys as a decent SS. Others will no doubt have their own views, but the very best I've ever heard Tannoys with is with Albarry monos driving them, no contest.
Some of the comments earlier RE "horrible mid range honk" are also just not true of a well set up pair, in the right cabs, with the right crossovers. The crossovers, in spite of what anyone thinks, have a huge impact on Tannoys. Their crossover point is critical, largely due to the large cone break-up spike just a shade over 1KHz (in 15 inch golds, this spike can be as high as 15dB and not very pleasant sounding). There is also another resonance peak at about 3KHz. HPDs are better behaved in this respect as their cones are stiffer and the breakup resonances less (I know, I've measured them) wrt to the 1KHz peak. I have developed crossovers for both HPDs and Golds which combined with the right cabinets, almost completely eliminates the lower mid distortion that some people are very sensitive to. Both Tom's RFC-Canterburys (so I'm told) and the RFC Fidelios (now residing with a customer in Bristol) show little if any trace at all of this resonance which is caused by a 3KHz harmonic horn resonance.
In respect of the former query on how a two way can transition from a 12/15 inch to a horn tweeter, well technical speaking, acoustically Tannoys aren't two way drivers at all. They behave like 3 way drivers. Bass is obviously handled by the bass cone. Lower mid range to around 2 khz takes advantage of the cone being shaped as a transitional horn mouth and it's only the higher frequencies which are purely emitted at the small horn mouth. The dispersion characteristics of this design ensure that off axis response remains reasonably smooth across the transition. Not the best in this respect, but respectable. Whatever anyone thinks, it's a very clever solution to an old problem and properly designed and set up, they may not be the last word in accuracy, but they are very enjoyable indeed. There is a world of difference between a properly set up pair (crossovers/cabs) and a run of the mill pair. They NEVER sounded at their optimum in factory cabinets.
. There is a world of difference between a properly set up pair (crossovers/cabs) and a run of the mill pair. They NEVER sounded at their optimum in factory cabinets.
Would you include the Autographs in that, Paul? Not that I have heard any but I understand many consider them to be the ultimate cabs.
Re the class A/valve thing I have heard Prestige Canterbury with a MOSFET class B amp and it whilst it might be improved on it couldn't really be faulted. Certainly didn't sound nasty in any respect.
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2014, 14:55
Well, like Macca says, no speaker is perfect, and that of course includes Tannoys. Although I fully understand where Jerry’s coming from with Tannoy DCs, in terms of coloration (all speakers are coloured to some degree), to my ears, it’s not at the expense of getting voices and acoustic instruments as fundamentally real sounding as possible.
I also like Quads, and agree that they have superb, very realistic sounding midrange qualities, but after listening to a pair of 57s, or whatever, I never leave thinking ‘jeez, that midrange is so fab it makes my Tannoys sound broken’, plus I couldn’t live with the Quad’s lack of deep, visceral bass and scale, or loudness capabilities, especially when I’m playing some Jane’s Addiction or Tool at ‘gig-type’ listening levels, where Quads simply wouldn’t want to know! :eyebrows: ;)
At the end of the day, with speakers or any other hi-fi components, it’s all about choosing your compromises.
Marco.
+1 re the Quads. The midrange is sublime. I too can sometimes get the feeling that my 15MG's just dont sound right after a session with my ESL57's but then the 57's cant do grandiose pomp and ceremony like my 15"MG's!
:rolleyes:
I can't think what you have listened to that you find so nasty, Jerry I really don't. But whatever you have heard was seriously at fault. But then again it's easy to hear an old pair of Tannoy's in crappy cabs with crappy and/or wrongly built crossovers connected to a crap amp driven by a crap source I suppose.
Tannoy's when done right have a lovely sound. Maybe you should go to Marco's for a listen? It's not just a speaker thing with vintage Tannoy's it's a system thing and not only that but a serious amount of dedication is required to get them working 'properly'.
Again +1 my 15MG's were transformed when I got my XO sorted by Paul @ RFC and TBH I dont feel my MG's are firing on all cylinders as I still have them sitting in Lancaster cabs. This is something I will be addressing in the new year. :eyebrows:
Hi Mark, how you doing?
I have always been curious about Tannoys but have pursued use of my SP2,s for many years as they do so many things right.
Alan (Firebottle) listened to them recently and was very impressed, he uses Quads and thought in some areas my SP2,s were similar in the midrange, very transparent and realistic. They don,t have the quite the scale of Tannoys but do have some balls in the bass.
When Glenn Croft was assessing stuff many years ago he used Quads, Horns, Harbeths and SP2,s, think he uses stacked Quads now.
Certainly hooked up to my VPI/ 2M Black and Croft 25R+ they sound superb with a live, visceral sound that can make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck.
Might be that old system synergy:) would like to compare them to some Tannoys sometime. One thing for sure these old speaker designs can certainly sound more musical than some of the brave new world offerings out there:lol:
Has anyone else tried Croft Preamp and Radford power amp? I think this combo works better than Radford pre and power (only IMHO). This combo seems to give the most lifelike and laid back presentation of John Coltrane than I ever heard. Fantastic if you've had a bad day.
nekoni koban
06-09-2014, 20:38
Has anyone else tried Croft Preamp and Radford power amp? I think this combo works better than Radford pre and power (only IMHO). This combo seems to give the most lifelike and laid back presentation of John Coltrane than I ever heard. Fantastic if you've had a bad day.
Friend of mine drives his MG15s (Yorks) with the vintage Radford STA25 (re-valved with NOS) and it is really wonderful. He had the Radford pre as well (SC22 I think it was), but it was not good at all -- all the buttons, switches, pots, connectors, etc, don't age well I guess. Can't remember what he uses now instead (Leben, I think), but I will suggest the Croft to him if you recommend it.
What I like about my Tannoy system (if I may inject a personal note) is that it doesn't sound like a 'hi-fi'... rather, it is like a living, breathing thing in my drawing room --- maybe at times it foams at the mouth, is prone to indelicacy, and cannot control its bottom functions (in short, like most of my houseguests), but it is at all times completely about the music. One can get endlessly obsessed with making up for real or perceived deficiencies in the Tannoys' frequency response by engineering and re-engineering the crossovers.. I worshipped in that church for awhile, but in the end I simply went back to the originals (cleaned up and replaced a few caps) and enjoy it more..
What I like about my Tannoy system (if I may inject a personal note) is that it doesn't sound like a 'hi-fi'... rather, it is like a living, breathing thing in my drawing room --- maybe at times it foams at the mouth, is prone to indelicacy, and cannot control its bottom functions (in short, like most of my houseguests), but it is at all times completely about the music. ..
I think you nailed what a really good system is right there.
walpurgis
06-09-2014, 21:21
I think you nailed what a really good system is right there.
I agree. I stop thinking 'equipment' when the music's on. I don't need to, because the sound absorbs you.
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2014, 21:51
Surprised you have didn't do that when you got the crossovers, Andrew.... lol I thought Paul was going to sort that for you???
I actually spent £3K on the garrard 301, SPU, SME 3012, and paradise phonostage, that money was meant for the cabs originally :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
spendorman
06-09-2014, 22:35
I have actually got a couple of small T amps and surprisingly, they sound pretty good with my Tannoys.
Today, my first trial of a class D chip amp, it's a TPA3116.
It's connected to my home built clone LS3/5a's, in my view it sounds very good. Perhaps treble not quite as sweet as my Radford STA25 III, but better than many amps. I did not want to risk first trial on my genuine Chartwell LS3/5a's, or on my Tannoy HPD315's, but when I have more confidence in it will try it on other speakers.
A speaker I might give a miss with this amp is the Rogers BBC LS3/6, they have a big auto transformer on the input of the speaker. This is practically a short circuit at DC. The LS3/6 does work very well on the Radford though.
Hi Marco, how you doing?
One thing for sure these old speaker designs can certainly sound more musical than some of the brave new world offerings out there:lol:
Hi Jim,
Sorry for the late reply. I’m fine - hope you are, too :)
As for the above, too right. Most modern loudspeakers I’ve heard make noises that, to my ears, bear little resemblance to that of real music!
Marco.
Hi Jim,
Sorry for the late reply. I’m fine - hope you are, too :)
As for the above, too right. Most modern loudspeakers I’ve heard make noises that, to my ears, bear little resemblance to that of real music!
Marco.
Have you not heard Harbeths Marco.?
Yes of course, and owned (and enjoyed them, too) :)
However, do remember that although Harbeths are ‘modern’ speakers, as in they are still made today, their inherent design principles hark back to the 60s and 70s, and thus are still very much part of the ‘BBC heritage’.
So yes, a modern speaker, but very much based upon old (tried and tested) principles.
Marco.
What is so special about vintage Tannoys????
The bill whenever they need re-coning, need new surrounds, or the crossovers need sorting... :stalks: Now that will leave you with a very 'special' feeling in your wallet... :D
(just a bit o fun guys...) ;)
Lol… Classic cars and motorbikes, for example, would require similar levels of attention, but the rewards are significant, and there to be had ;)
Besides, other than the latter (you’ve stated), which would only be necessary if the original crossovers were considered as sonically unsatisfactory, the rest can largely be negated by only buying mint examples of the breed in the first place, and then after that, looking after them.
My 15” MGs are nearly as old as me, and cone/surround rot they don’t have! :)
Marco.
My 15” MGs are nearly as old as me, and cone/surround rot they don’t have! :)
Marco.
Ah, that explains your wee issue then, are you still taking the pills? :D
Yes, and the nurse is due any minute to apply the cream :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yes, and the nurse is due any minute to apply the cream :eyebrows:
Marco.
I think I know her, Nurse Ratchet... Watch those teeth... :D
Nah, she takes them out before she starts! :lol:
Marco.
Yeah I noticed that, could never fathom out why she'd want to insert them up mi arse tho'... :eek:
tannoy man
19-09-2014, 13:21
+1 re the Quads. The midrange is sublime. I too can sometimes get the feeling that my 15MG's just dont sound right after a session with my ESL57's but then the 57's cant do grandiose pomp and ceremony like my 15"MG's!
Again +1 my 15MG's were transformed when I got my XO sorted by Paul @ RFC and TBH I dont feel my MG's are firing on all cylinders as I still have them sitting in Lancaster cabs. This is something I will be addressing in the new year. :eyebrows:
Has anyone else tried Croft Preamp and Radford power amp? I think this combo works better than Radford pre and power (only IMHO). This combo seems to give the most lifelike and laid back presentation of John Coltrane than I ever heard. Fantastic if you've had a bad day.
I was using the same combo for a couple of Years, Very very good, Lots of Synergy going on.
If you get the chance Try a Benchmark DAC 1 HDR as a Pre into your Radford, it cleared up many of the Problems Id Blamed on my York Cabs, also Try Abbey Road Reference Speaker Cables, they work great with the Tannoys
Wakefield Turntables
19-09-2014, 14:10
I was using the same combo for a couple of Years, Very very good, Lots of Synergy going on.
If you get the chance Try a Benchmark DAC 1 HDR as a Pre into your Radford, it cleared up many of the Problems Id Blamed on my York Cabs, also Try Abbey Road Reference Speaker Cables, they work great with the Tannoys
Paul,
Thanks for the confirmation my lug'oles are working to reasonable capacity!! I dont think i'll be swapping the croft just yet, I will probably go up the valve hierachy at some stage with maybe something from Nick Gorham and even a couple of Croft 7RS monoblock. Thanks for the suggestion for speaker cable but TBH i'm happy with £3.50 a meter black Rhodium. It work a treat, I no longer subscribe to paying lots of money for cables. ;) My next purchase will be a set of Tannoy Lockwood cabs or alternatively getting a pair made up.
tannoy man
19-09-2014, 15:01
Sounds like a Good Plan:) re the Abbey Road, I had Used a very good Mission multistrand since the 1980"s and this £200 used Purchase changed my Perceptions
dantheman91
07-10-2016, 06:34
This is not about vintage Tannoys but about the I8 professional i have been offered a pair in white for a fair price from a local lighting/audio shop wondering weather to add them to the tannoy collection?
SCRAP THAT THE GUYS SOLD THEM :steam:
walpurgis
07-10-2016, 08:44
You didn't miss out on anything too special Dan.
The i8 is an older paper coned tulip waveguide model with limited bass extension. The i6 (dual concentric) is a far better sounding unit.
anubisgrau
17-01-2017, 08:19
i have a pair of K3808 (i rate quite highly if used properly), one of the drivers has a slight damage of the surround. i don't think it affects the sound but it would be nice to fix it.
anyone has a clue if there's a supplier of tannoy vintage treated cloth surrounds? i guess this may be a hard task since these are timeless, if you take care they preserve an elasticity (Fs can rise quite significantly if they get stiff).... these are from 1981 me thinks.
btw, also, if anyone has a clean pair for sale please let me know. cheers!
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