View Full Version : To clamp or not to clamp
What do folks think the pros and cons are for clamping records?
I have read conflicting views suggesting clamping although useful in flattening a record can take some of the life out of it?
Have you searched the archive for this, dude? There's been TONS of discussion about this subject before... ;)
Marco.
l clamp mine;) and my records.
Have you searched the archive for this, dude? There's been TONS of discussion about this subject before... ;)
Marco.
Ah sorry didn,t want to waste folks time - I will check out the archive:)
No reason why it can't be discussed again though, as since the last time, some of us may have changed our minds on the matter - I know that I have! ;)
Marco.
No reason why it can't be discussed again, though, as some of us may have changed our minds on the matter - I know that I have! ;)
Marco.
Just experimenting now and as we all know systems and TT can all vary so much any result can be very specific for that system.
I have used a clamp on my VPI for the last 12 months and have only just tried it without and my initial findings are that the music has definitely more air and space around it. Less aggressive concentrated sound if I can put it that way.
However the clamp is useful for annoying warped records where I have had the stylus bouncing all over the place making them almost unplayable:eek:
Floyddroid
26-05-2014, 20:51
To weight or clamp? That is the question.
....., some of us may have changed our minds on the matter - I know that I have! ;)
Marco.
I haven't ;).
The Barbarian
26-05-2014, 21:10
Clamp for me but only a Michell clamp
I haven't ;).
Hehehehe... It pays to keep an open mind!
Marco.
Magna Audio
26-05-2014, 22:07
Prefer a weight - same every time, unless a clamp has a smart system of applying the same pressure everytime?
I made up several weights and added / subtracted until I got the best sound for my rig. I reckon that each deck / mat etc might have it's own 'sweet' weight - not a case
of one size fits all. A mathematcian might try to convince me otherwise though:)
Hehehehe... It pays to keep an open mind!
Marco.
I would happily have changed my mind if I had heard, or found, anything that contradicted my previous findings; but then I haven't recently abandoned silver cables or adopted minimum contact record support...(I already preferred copper cable and have used a minimum contact record mat for many years - way before the existence of your new one)...
James, this subject has been discussed quite extensively in the past, but as Marco says, there is no harm in discussing it again. However, it's late and I'm afraid I am disinclined to repeat my previous thoughts/experiences.
I would happily have changed my mind if I had heard, or found, anything that contradicted my previous findings; but then I haven't recently abandoned silver cables or adopted minimum contact record support...(I already preferred copper cable and have used a minimum contact record mat for many years - way before the existence of your new one)...
Lol - that's cool. It just depends when in your audio journey that you discover certain things.
I've already discovered that valves (at their best) are better than solid-state, and that the best D/D turntables outperform their rubber-band counterparts, whereas you've still to arrive at that point. As they say, some get there early, some late, and some never...
;)
Marco.
After many months of preferring no weight or clamp when I fitted the Funk platter and MN bearing then I definitely found improved dynamics with the Bruil weight (http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html#universal). The Clearaudio clever clamp made no difference and my previous "home made" weight deadened the sound so I gues like so many things it's all system dependent and there is no "right" answer
After many months of preferring no weight or clamp when I fitted the Funk platter and MN bearing then I definitely found improved dynamics with the Bruil weight (http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html#universal). The Clearaudio clever clamp made no difference and my previous "home made" weight deadened the sound so I gues like so many things it's all system dependent and there is no "right" answer
The reason I put the post up yesterday was due to the fact I did notice a difference with and without the clamp. Reading your thread regarding the Bruil weight suggested similar findings I had with a clamp. VPI use it extensively with most of their TT but I thought I would experiment without.
As I stated last night I did find without the clamp fitted there was noticable difference with more air and ambience but this was at the expense of dynamics. Obviously clamps and weights do make a difference but I am beginning to believe in my case I will be trading off one sound against another and choose which flavour I prefer.
VPI use a tacky sorbathane mat with the TT I have which I believe contributes to the sound. I might try without the mat, direct onto the platter as VPI have suggested themselves but in this case I would definitely need the clamp to stop the vinyl from slipping. I expect a different sound again.
Then what if I try other mat materials with and without the clamp - I can see quite a lot of experimentation here:scratch: but thats part of the fun with Turntables, they are infinitely tweakable!
The LP does vibrate mechanically and this vibration is picked up by the cartridge and is inseparable from the music also being picked up. The amount of vibration depends on the record support, the cartridge and its compliance and tracking weight.
In general low compliance cartridges with high tracking weights induce more vibration into the disc than high compliance cartridges at low tracking weights.
The amount and frequency of the vibration is strongly effected by the support, i.e. mat, and whether a clamp/weight is used.
Generally less contact/less weight or no clamp will result in more spurious sound being added to the cartridge output and more contact + weight or clamp leads to less spurious added sound.
This addition can be tuned to taste as implied by Speedy Steve's optimum weight.
Generally full contact and clamp will give the least spurious addition but is difficult to achieve.
Obviously lots of people tune to taste.
The one downside of clamp and full contact is that if there is rumble it will be more directly coupled to the record, and more of it picked up by the stylus.
Depends on the record player & mat interface. Acrylic mats / platters benefit from clamping, you wouldn't but a "Bruil" style weight on an LP12, and some like the original Systemdeks have a dished platter, so need to be clamped for intended operation. It's definitely worth trying a variety of clamps & weights to see what works & they can bring real improvements. I use a "Souther Clever Clamp" (licensed by Clearaudio). Enough to stop slippage but minimal contact and weight.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Souther-Clever-Clamp-image.gif
The one downside of clamp and full contact is that if there is rumble it will be more directly coupled to the record, and more of it picked up by the stylus.
The same could be said for a heavier platter too.
The same could be said for a heavier platter too.
Don't get much rumble with the VPI and that has a heavy platter with a big rubber band round it.
Going to try clamped and unclamped again this weekend. See if there is a noticeable difference.
StanleyB
30-05-2014, 06:41
The best protection against rumble that I found is to clean out and re-oil the bearing and spindle on the platter assembly. No amount of clamping is going to be able to overcome the drag that a grease and dirt infested bearing assembly introduces to the music.
Clive197
30-05-2014, 09:48
Having experimented last year with a weight on my Techie and finding no differences to my ear, I read this thread with interest. A number of thoughts come to mind. Is there a difference between a belt drive and a direct drive in this context? Will the record weight make a difference? It seems that platter, mat and cartridge all form part of the variable. I would therefor conclude that there is no right or wrong to this question, you just have to suck-it and see.
As an interesting aside, though I found no discernible difference, I was given an Inspire Weight when I purchased my Techie and as I have it, I tend to use it most of the time, why, I couldn't tell you.
Clive
Stratmangler
30-05-2014, 11:01
I've heard quite a few TTs used with weights, and I have always felt that while exaggerating some of the "HiFi" aspects of replay they ultimately fail in terms of musical performance.
On the other hand I use a Michell Clamp and hear no sonic differences playing records with or without the clamp, so I use the clamp for what it was designed for - flattening records.
Having experimented last year with a weight on my Techie and finding no differences to my ear, I read this thread with interest. A number of thoughts come to mind. Is there a difference between a belt drive and a direct drive in this context? Will the record weight make a difference? It seems that platter, mat and cartridge all form part of the variable. I would therefor conclude that there is no right or wrong to this question, you just have to suck-it and see.
As an interesting aside, though I found no discernible difference, I was given an Inspire Weight when I purchased my Techie and as I have it, I tend to use it most of the time, why, I couldn't tell you.
Clive
This is good advice
Personally I don't bother clamping even though I have owned several
Turntables that come supplied with one , the problem I have is, I have
Never come across a clamp capable of flattening a warped record
Paul
The same could be said for a heavier platter too.
How come?
The weight of the platter will have a frequency and amplitude implication but will have no effect of the coupling of the record to platter, as far as I can see.
The best protection against rumble that I found is to clean out and re-oil the bearing and spindle on the platter assembly. No amount of clamping is going to be able to overcome the drag that a grease and dirt infested bearing assembly introduces to the music.
The best protection against rumble is to design the bearing properly in the first place.
StanleyB
31-05-2014, 06:55
The best protection against rumble is to design the bearing properly in the first place.
And they are, even the dirt cheap vintage ones. But after 30 to 40 years of use it is just amazing that these things still perform so well with so little problem. Try saying the same about a car engine and gearbox maintained to the same minimalist level.
How come?
The weight of the platter will have a frequency and amplitude implication but will have no effect of the coupling of the record to platter, as far as I can see.
Bearing to thrustpad friction, and platter to record coupling are different things. The heavier the platter the more the friction. There will always be some coupling of the record to the platter.
Bearing to thrustpad friction, and platter to record coupling are different things. The heavier the platter the more the friction. There will always be some coupling of the record to the platter.
Seems I wasn't clear enough.
And they are, even the dirt cheap vintage ones. But after 30 to 40 years of use it is just amazing that these things still perform so well with so little problem. Try saying the same about a car engine and gearbox maintained to the same minimalist level.
In fact a turntable bearing is a trivial piece of engineering and a proper design is not difficult though good quality of manufacture isn't cheap.
Once produced the bearing speed is so low that only the most badly designed or abused item would deteriorate.
What do folks think the pros and cons are for clamping records?
I have read conflicting views suggesting clamping although useful in flattening a record can take some of the life out of it?
I have tried a clamp and a weight on differing tables - Rega3 and Roksan Radius, I could discern absolutely no difference when clamped/weighted or not. Personally I just don't bother.
Without wishing to be overly blunt, that's hardly an exhaustive investigation now is it!
The Barbarian
02-06-2014, 22:27
tbh, im not personally interested in any so called sound differences, all i'm interested in is the clamp i use adds no additional weight to the main bearing & clamps down how i want a record to be clamped.. Jobs a good un loike..
Without wishing to be overly blunt, that's hardly an exhaustive investigation now is it!
Er no, of course not, but enough for me to decide I will not be using one. Surely the point of using a forum is to share experiences, comprehensive or not?
Er no, of course not, but enough for me to decide I will not be using one. Surely the point of using a forum is to share experiences, comprehensive or not?
Well said. We're not in the classroom now.
I'm interested in this subject just now and find all experiences useful.
If you are taking on board other peoples experience I presume you are prepared to 'learn' from it which rather contradicts your statement that we are not in the classroom - unless, of course, you are just looking for confirmation of existing beliefs.
Personal experience is good but only within context. Let us say, hypothetically, that you are a keen hiker and are looking for opinion on boots. I tell you I've tried three pairs and there was no difference between them. I then tell you that the only walking I actually do is 100 yards to the pub and back! How much weight would you give to my footwear review now...?
It's one thing to say record clamping is a good or bad idea and an altogether different one to say it makes no difference either way! There are staunch supporters of the 'no, you shouldn't clamp' approach but that opinion is because they think it impacts negatively on the sound, not because they think it makes no difference!
Anyway, if you are interested in the subject it's easy enough to try it out for yourself.
Guys, let's cut the heat and chill.... :smoking:
We are ALL on a constant learning curve in this game, including me, which incidentally, in terms of the subject of 'To clamp or not to clamp', I soon may have a new (rather enlightening) experience of some significance to add into the mix! ;)
Marco.
P.S So, please, no more now on 'personalities', let's get back to discussing the thread topic.
Sorry, Mark. I've had to remove your retort to Bob. Did you not read the 'P.S' in my last post? Well, the same applies to you, mate, as it does to Bob, who has also had one of his posts removed.
Therefore, I insist that this discussion get's back on topic, so any further remarks made by anyone, outside of the efficacy or otherwise of record clamps, will be deleted without further warning.
Marco.
I used to use a soft clamp but since changing mats I now don't use it on this system. When i used a normal mat it did in my mind make a significant improvement. I will try it out soon on the matless acrylic platter and see if it does anything of note.... Must really do that soon:lol:
Sorry, Mark. I've had to remove your retort to Bob. Did you not read the 'P.S' in my last post?
Yes, I did.
..as it does to Bob, who has also had one of his posts removed.
In that case, fair enough.
Therefore, I insist that this discussion get's back on topic.
I am happy for that to be the case.
Over the years I have tried (and made) a great number of mats and methods of clamping the record. I have used record clamping, given it up for a long time, and returned to it.
What I would say is that my experience is that the effect of mats (and even more so clamps/weights) can easily be obscured. Usually, clamping the record to the mat amplifies (not literally) the sonic signature of the mat when used on its own*. However, occasionally, the character of the mat sound is modified by adding clamping.
* As an example, I have found that a thick rubber mat mutes the top end, imbues a muddy, opaque quality and fattens up (a sense there is more weight but without shape or texture) the bass (sometimes all of this is just heard as 'bigger bass') - adding a clamp just exaggerates these subjective qualities.
Another thing I would say (write); there is a commonly repeated misconception regarding weights and clamps and that is that their purpose is to stop the record slipping on the platter/mat. Although a byproduct of adding a clamp/mat is to make the record less likely to slip it isn't a required feature and there is no danger of the record slipping during play - even when placed on a hard surface. The friction generated at the stylus/record interface just isn't enough to overcome the mass/inertia of the record sitting on the platter. Before any movement can take place the static friction between record and support must first be overcome.
I would also say that there are significant differences (beyond the obvious) in the way that different clamping methods behave/perform.
Methods of clamping:
1/ Reflex clamp (like the Michell)
2/ Record weight (literally a lump of something placed on the record)
3/ Friction clamp (presses on and grips the record spindle)
4/ Screw down (requires a threaded record spindle - sometimes uses a domed washer to tension the record and/or a concave platter)
5/ Vacuum hold down (air is sucked out from between the record and platter - atmospheric pressure therefore brings the two into contact. A thin porous mat is often used to discourage small particles on the platter from becoming embedded in the vinyl when clamped)
Sorry, Mark. I've had to remove your retort to Bob. Did you not read the 'P.S' in my last post? Well, the same applies to you, mate, as it does to Bob, who has also had one of his posts removed.
Therefore, I insist that this discussion get's back on topic, so any further remarks made by anyone, outside of the efficacy or otherwise of record clamps, will be deleted without further warning.
Marco.
No probs here Marco.
Coolio... We therefore move onwards and upwards! :cool:
Marco.
Haselsh1
08-08-2014, 16:57
I have used aluminium pucks and record clamps at some differing stage during the past and I come out in favour of clamps everytime. There are clear benefits to my ears when using a record clamp in preference to a puck. The stereo effect is far greater, the sound is much sharper and more focused and there is less of a risk to the main bearing. Currently I use neither as I have a very delicate little sprung number that doesn't like them.
Pete The Cat
08-08-2014, 20:58
My only experience to date has been an aluminium weight ca 450g. What I seemed to gain in bass I lost on stability of speed control, it seemed to trouble the Pioneer PL-71 (serviced with PL71A electro pack) which I was using at the time into needing adjustments to its pitch and so I stopped using it since I was worried that it might be too heavy.
Pete
The PL-71 motor is not the most muscular, however, I've used a weight clamp to good effect but with a better regulated PSU and found the deck stable and sounding better. It helps to pay attention to the mat as well IME.
Audio Al
09-08-2014, 04:20
I'm not convinced with clamping a LP down on the platter , most platters have a slight recess in the center and I would think clamping at this point would force the center of the LP into this recess causing the outer part of the LP to lift ( sort of cantilever effect ) and alter cartridge side loading
Just my thoughts :)
I'm not convinced with clamping a LP down on the platter , most platters have a slight recess in the center and I would think clamping at this point would force the center of the LP into this recess causing the outer part of the LP to lift ( sort of cantilever effect ) and alter cartridge side loading
Just my thoughts :)
I would say it is Michell Engineering's thoughts too. Their clamp comes with a soft washer-like thing that you put down over the spindle before you put on the clamp. The clamp itself, through its design, only contacts the record at its perimeter. The combined effect is to prevent this sink-age in the middle of the LP.
I would say it is Michell Engineering's thoughts too. Their clamp comes with a soft washer-like thing that you put down over the spindle before you put on the clamp. The clamp itself, through its design, only contacts the record at its perimeter. The combined effect is to prevent this sink-age in the middle of the LP.
Exactly the same system used on the VPI which also uses a threaded spindle.
Screw down clamps (or the heavier) weights can cause the record to lift at the edge - but as others have said, this is overcome by using a felt or hard domed washer in the middle. The washer is thicker than the platters label recess and the record is tensioned over the washer. It all places a lot of pressure on the record and the systems that use a hard washer have been known to cause micro-cracking around the record hole.
If a deck slows when a weight is used it suggests that there are other issues to me. A record weight (450g is about average in the world of record weights) has all it's mass centred at the middle (I realise that's obvious :)) of the platter and should add very little to the overall rotational inertia. In other words, it shouldn't make the platter much more difficult to rotate. What it will do is significantly increase the vertical load on the main bearing and that will cause the friction levels to rise (and therefore the bearing rumble). It strikes me as more likely that it was the increased bearing friction that was upsetting the Pioneers motor. The increased load on the main bearing is the problem I have with record weights.
Although reflex clamps are lower mass they have issues of their own. Inherently, they clamp tightly to the record spindle and, as this is usually one with the bearing, directly to the bearing. Therefore, any bearing rumble/noise now has a direct path straight to the record (bypassing the filter of the mat). In fact, reflex clamps do a better job of clamping to the record spindle than they do pressing down on the record.
Clamp/weight manufacturers tend to make rather esoteric 'damping' claims for their products; but most of the time audible differences boil down to three aspects.
1/ what is under the record
2/ how much pressure it actually applies to the record
3/ how effectively it couples bearing noise to the record
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-REVOLUTION-SOFT-CLAMP-BY-SRM-TECH-With-Spirit-Level-For-Perfect-Set-Up-/271569071049?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f3ac72bc9
Thus is the one I use, it really does work as well.
Not seen that one before. It doesn't sound like it is really a clamp or a weight - more a damping pad. I guess it is a clamp rather like the Clearaudio 'Clever' one - though I personally found that more just gripped the record spindle than anything else.
...it really does work as well.
What exactly does it do to the sound? Have you compared it to anything else?
Pete The Cat
13-08-2014, 19:46
If a deck slows when a weight is used it suggests that there are other issues to me. A record weight (450g is about average in the world of record weights) has all it's mass centred at the middle (I realise that's obvious :)) of the platter and should add very little to the overall rotational inertia. In other words, it shouldn't make the platter much more difficult to rotate. What it will do is significantly increase the vertical load on the main bearing and that will cause the friction levels to rise (and therefore the bearing rumble). It strikes me as more likely that it was the increased bearing friction that was upsetting the Pioneers motor. The increased load on the main bearing is the problem I have with record weights.
I'm glad I raised this since it's been a mystery to me until now. When I rationalised it to myself I realised that 450g really shouldn't be "too heavy" for the motor and that many weights are similar, but like many of us I don't take risks with my kit. I'm grateful for your explanation since something wasn't right and your comments seem very plausible.
Cheers.
Pete
Well it's only conjecture on my part Pete. Also, bearing friction really shouldn't rise to a level that the motor finds a problem with only 450g extra load.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.