Mains Cable Musings

[Ammonite Audio]

Spurred on by my Naim DAC-V1's patent disregard for fancy mains cables, and a general tide of anti-foo sentiment in HiFi forums, I decided to pull out the Vertex AQ Roraima mains cables from my system and replace them with ordinary cables made up from bog-standard black 16A 3-core flex fitted with the fancy Furutech rhodium connectors culled from the Vertex cables. My intuition suggested that connectors probably make a difference but the wire bits in-between probably don't; also those Vertex cables are ba**ards to arrange behind the rack. So, £4 and a fair bit of time was spent on assembling the new cables.

The result? Initially, a harder, grittier presentation and a generally indistinct, uninteresting, slow-witted feel to the music. "They need some time to settle in", I thought, so several days passed, but no improvement came. So, I reversed the experiment, putting the fancy Furutech connectors back on the Vertex cables and replacing them in the system. Oh what a difference! Immediately the grittiness was gone and a lovely harmonious, organic and coherent feel returned to the sound. Bass (inasmuch as the Quads do really deep bass) became deeper and tighter again. The music was back!

So, for £4 a good lesson learnt. I still wonder how much value there is in über-expensive mains cables, but there is definitely something to be gained from experimentation in this area. The boggo 16A cables made my Lyngdorf sound 'digital', and anyone hearing the system with them in place would probably go away thinking that Class D amplifiers do sound bright, harsh and indeed 'digital', but with the Vertex cables in place, I doubt a blindfolded person would be able to distinguish their sound from a good valve amplifier. The difference is that obvious (to my ears anyway, which is all that matters here).

Anyway, I hope the outcome of this little experiment is useful.

[Ammonite Audio]

Would you like to re-word that? You probably did not mean to come across as being arrogant, but that's exactly how your post above comes across.

Anyway, if it helps, my equipment is: PS Audio P5 Power Plant; home-brew audio PC running Win7/JRiver with all music as WAV (some FLAC) on internal SSD; Gustard USB/SPDIF converter feeding digits via MIT Shotgun digital cable to a Lyngdorf TDA-2200 amplifier; Belkin PureAV speaker cables; Quad ESL57 speakers (full One Thing re-build). Vinyl is Thorens TD124 with Swissonor platter, Schopper bearing, Martin Bastin PSU, Audio Note Arm 3 II, Benz Wood SL; ANT Audio Kora 3T SE phono amp; Audio Note AN-S3H SUT; MIT and Mark Grant RCA cables. The mains cables in question feed all the bits requiring mains power.

Martin T and Montesquieu have both heard my system and can vouch for its general performance.

[AlanS]

Would you like to re-word that? You probably did not mean to come across as being arrogant, but that's exactly how your post above comes across.

Anyway, if it helps, my equipment is: PS Audio P5 Power Plant; home-brew audio PC running Win7/JRiver with all music as WAV (some FLAC) on internal SSD; Gustard USB/SPDIF converter feeding digits via MIT Shotgun digital cable to a Lyngdorf TDA-2200 amplifier; Belkin PureAV speaker cables; Quad ESL57 speakers (full One Thing re-build). Vinyl is Thorens TD124 with Swissonor platter, Schopper bearing, Martin Bastin PSU, Audio Note Arm 3 II, Benz Wood SL; ANT Audio Kora 3T SE phono amp; Audio Note AN-S3H SUT; MIT and Mark Grant RCA cables. The mains cables in question feed all the bits requiring mains power.

Martin T and Montesquieu have both heard my system and can vouch for its general performance.

As you will see I have deleted my post and appologies for asking.

I make no judgement of you.

[nat8808]

Interesting experiment and personal findings.. I've not yet had similar experience with mains cables but then my only fancy ones are some Silver Arrow pre-production ones which could be made of anything, but most likely silver ribbons, but with no shielding at all.

So, for my own testing it would be better to test against something more technically sound, shielded cables etc than what I already have.

P.S. 16A cable is kind of moot because of the 13A fuse and plugs and UK sockets, the 10A max capacity of the IEC socketry etc. I guess cable constuction could make a difference and it is coincidental that it's 16A capable.

[nat8808]

I just read the deleted post/question from AlanS (via Google cached pages) - didn't seem too arrogant to me, except wanting to repeat/proove to himself that you weren't imagining things perhaps.
I think it's perfectly valid to imply that it could be psychological - just that the skill comes in expressing that which doesn't rile the subject of the original post! and that point entirely depends on the person who's reading it.

I guess if I heard a big difference, I would be asking myself it the effect was real and so not be surprised if others too questioned it. Just part of being inquisitive rather than just accepting the world on face value. The deeper aspects of life, the human condition make it a much more colourful world than everything everyone experiences being accepted as fact, not to mention the contradictions that would throw up.

In light of other cable thread arguments I would make an open appeal for people not to be so touchy when it comes to personal experience!

Whilst personal experience may FEEL like the truth, psychologically speaking it ONLY holds any truth to you and may well be completely different for someone else. i.e. personal experience is kind of as far from fact as you can get - even whole crowds can experience collective false experiences, as experiments have shown..

[nat8808]

P.S. on top, I've err.... personally experienced that there are a good number of hifi enthusiasts (along with enthusiasts in other fields!) who, lets say.. don't have above average personal skills!

So all enthusiast forums should be doubly leanient and forgiving - sometimes things come across wrongly, especially as text with no vocal context on which to judge meaning.

[Ammonite Audio]

Thanks for replying to the thread - I'm glad that someone is interested. This little experiment started with the premise that the cheap cables would be just as good as the expensive Vertex ones, but that premise turned out, for me, to be completely wrong. If I had any bias at the outset, it was if anything leaning towards the cheap cables being better. At least I did not spend hod loads of extra cash on the Vertex cables, since I have owned them for years. So, little risked and little lost. I'd be happy to repeat the experiment for anyone wishing to visit; and feel confident that the differences are so marked that everyone would agree with my conclusion. It really was a stark binary case of Horrible v Nice.

My experiences here are simply intended to be informative and helpful, not to stoke up any arguments (there have been enough of those). There are no rights and wrongs in the world of audio, because we are all different, with different personalities, tastes, preferences, prejudices and not least auditory systems (that includes the brain). We each hear things differently (which does not simply mean perceiving pure tone frequencies). Some people perceive Schoenberg's works as music - I could not imagine anything further removed from music but maybe that's me. I'd like to think that others would read about my experiences here, be open-minded, and maybe as a result find a way to improve their own system and listening pleasure.

For interest, I chose 16A simply cable because it was the fattest, ordinary off-the-reel BS compliant 3-core PVC insulated mains cable available.

I agree with your point about leniency and forgiveness, but sometimes arrogance needs to be highlighted, in a courteous and polite manner. Perhaps "How to Win Friends and Influence People" should be mandatory reading before anyone is granted full membership?

[nat8808]

Well, I certainly second those sentiments about getting the most out of our systems.

It was interesting you bothered to swap the plugs over as there are often too many variables when people try out new stuff - is it the connectors, is it the cable, is it something else.. Also makes you wonder if those fancy terminations are quite worth it, perhaps better spending on the cable itself?

In some way, using a P5 or other regenerator is a bit like using an amplifier so the mains cables are acting in some way like speaker cables - just that the amp is playing pure 50Hz tones.

[Effem]

I meant to put a comment on here earlier Hugo but I have been somewhat occupied elsewhere LOL

My understanding of Vertex cables from what I have read on the internet is the "box" is there purely for vibration damping control and has no electrical connection to the cable itself. How true this is I have no idea, although I had a Vertex digital co-ax cable when I last had a separate DAC and despite all the talk of "bits is bits" the system certainly sounded better to me with the Vertex cable in than without.

Puzzle I may do about hi-fi components and how there are put together and how they work, I never go busting into any of it to investigate the workings, especially when it has a price tag like the Vertex cables. The other Vertex item I adored the effect it had on sound, was the Super Kinabaloo support.

Regarding your swap exercise of putting the Furutech plugs onto the 16 amp cable, you had a play, it was not for you and good enough for me as it was the intent that was notable :)

[MartinT]

Martin T and Montesquieu have both heard my system and can vouch for its general performance.

I can indeed, and it's a fine sounding system Hugo.

I can also vouch for the ability of good mains cables to remove harshness and generally take performance up another level. It's counter-intuitive, but I've been playing with them for the last 20 years and have performed numerous before/after experiments. Sometimes a well selected power cable can make more difference than interconnects. Mad but true.

[cyclopse]

I meant to put a comment on here earlier Hugo but I have been somewhat occupied elsewhere LOL

My understanding of Vertex cables from what I have read on the internet is the "box" is there purely for vibration damping control and has no electrical connection to the cable itself. How true this is I have no idea, although I had a Vertex digital co-ax cable when I last had a separate DAC and despite all the talk of "bits is bits" the system certainly sounded better to me with the Vertex cable in than without.

Puzzle I may do about hi-fi components and how there are put together and how they work, I never go busting into any of it to investigate the workings, especially when it has a price tag like the Vertex cables. The other Vertex item I adored the effect it had on sound, was the Super Kinabaloo support.

Regarding your swap exercise of putting the Furutech plugs onto the 16 amp cable, you had a play, it was not for you and good enough for me as it was the intent that was notable :)

Me and an audiophile friend had an opportunity to hear a full Vertex wired system the other Sunday. Digital replay was curtosy of DCS Vivaldi. We were listening to Private Investigations. The digital interconnect was swapped out and we both heard the soundstage collapse. Sounds that were far right came in to the confines of the speaker cabinet.

HRS do a similar vibration removal system. There system is a little different because they utilise top plates to remove air born vibration.

Regards

Stephen

[Ammonite Audio]

I meant to put a comment on here earlier Hugo but I have been somewhat occupied elsewhere LOL

My understanding of Vertex cables from what I have read on the internet is the "box" is there purely for vibration damping control and has no electrical connection to the cable itself. How true this is I have no idea, although I had a Vertex digital co-ax cable when I last had a separate DAC and despite all the talk of "bits is bits" the system certainly sounded better to me with the Vertex cable in than without.

Puzzle I may do about hi-fi components and how there are put together and how they work, I never go busting into any of it to investigate the workings, especially when it has a price tag like the Vertex cables. The other Vertex item I adored the effect it had on sound, was the Super Kinabaloo support.

Regarding your swap exercise of putting the Furutech plugs onto the 16 amp cable, you had a play, it was not for you and good enough for me as it was the intent that was notable :)

That's correct - the box is for absorbing sound and vibration energy and the conductors somehow pass through it without interruption .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I too can vouch for some of the things said in this discussion. I own a p10, for a while I just used standard less than a fiver power lead, the p10 worked and improved my sonic experience. I then found an old isotek elite power lead with some shielding, decent plug and iec. The p10 improved again, not much but I could detect it. I must admit that the improvements were only small but I was pleasantly surprised. Fast forward again and I now have a fully shielded mains cable with decent quality copper and again a further upgraded plug and IEC, yet another improvement, again not massive but my system just sounded tighter and more cohesive, two variables which are very important for my enjoyment of music. I will probably upgrade the lead again with two 3mm pure silver solid conductors. My system seems to get better when you improve twhe quality of the components. Im very sceptical about cables and don't usually comment about them. I don't think you need to spend much to get a decent cable. My "best" design cable has cost me less than £100. I shall hopefully, as funds permit, roll out this design to the rest of the system. I've produced a lead which has been beneficial for my system and had the enjoyment of making it myself. Ok, that's my 2bob's worth. ;)

[jandl100]

Interesting experiment and findings, Hugo.

Did you consider trying the Vertex cable with ordinary plugs?

[Ammonite Audio]

Interesting experiment and findings, Hugo.

Did you consider trying the Vertex cable with ordinary plugs?

No, that would have been too much trouble - some years ago I changed the Vertex-fitted connectors for the Furutechs and did not keep the original plugs (thickish and inflexible conductors are quite tricky to fit in ordinary 13A plugs anyway). I'm not up for any further experimentation, having established that my system really sings with the Vertex stuff in place, but not without.

[Another Andy]

I was lucky enough to be able to pull a dedicated ring main through to my listening room from the consumer unit.

I used standard 2.5mm T&E cable. I found switchless 13A outlet wall plates that I dismantled cleaned and put back together (only do this is you know what your doing!!) and I polished the pins on the 13A plugs that go into this ring.

Definite improvement to my ears, and when Im alone in the house I can also switch everything else off at the consumer unit and just have my system running on its own. This makes a big improvement!

Most of my replaceable mains cables are either budget replacements (£20-50) or DIY costing roughly £50 for parts.

Yes I have noticed a difference between different cables I have used to the point of finding a silver mains cable sounds much better with my Rega Apollo, but sounds terrible on my preamp.
I am also a great believer in using screened mains cables if at all possible, its not so much what these cables pick up but what they give out that's picked up by the rest of the system.

[Jimbo]

I was lucky enough to be able to pull a dedicated ring main through to my listening room from the consumer unit.

I used standard 2.5mm T&E cable. I found switchless 13A outlet wall plates that I dismantled cleaned and put back together (only do this is you know what your doing!!) and I polished the pins on the 13A plugs that go into this ring.

Definite improvement to my ears, and when Im alone in the house I can also switch everything else off at the consumer unit and just have my system running on its own. This makes a big improvement!

Most of my replaceable mains cables are either budget replacements (£20-50) or DIY costing roughly £50 for parts.

Yes I have noticed a difference between different cables I have used to the point of finding a silver mains cable sounds much better with my Rega Apollo, but sounds terrible on my preamp.
I am also a great believer in using screened mains cables if at all possible, its not so much what these cables pick up but what they give out that's picked up by the rest of the system.

I used to get quite a bit of interference from my mains cables, especially the power lead to my TT, however since changing them all to screened cables I have significantly reduced electrical interference.

My preamp would pick up the switch noise from my TT motor when I switched it on and off previously. This has now been eliminated with screened cable.

Makes you wonder how much other stuff is fed back into your system with unscreened cables?

[YNWaN]

My preamp would pick up the switch noise from my TT motor when I switched it on and off previously. This has now been eliminated with screened cable.

Are you quite sure - that isn't usually attributed to a cable screening issue?