WTD: Ortofon Cadenza Black or other interesting MC Cart; Possible swap for AT 50ANV

[Elephantears]

I'm very interesting in trying a Cadenza Black, but I'm building up a list of other carts I'm interested in, including 47 Labs MC Bee, something by Zyx or Transfiguration, or possibly a Benz. I want something around 0.3 - 0.4mV output that has both refinement and guts.

I have an AT 50ANV, which is a fantastically dynamic and revealing cartridge, and it tracks so well that a record cleaner becomes redundant. However it is very low output at 0.12mV and I don't think I will be able to get the best out of it unless I start investigating with SUTS and new valve phono stages, which I'd prefer not to do. If you have a suitable set up, though, this cartridge is in many ways extraordinary, and I would consider putting it up for a swap.

[walpurgis]

I have a ZYX R100 H2 with only 50 hours use. It was given a once over by Dom at Northwest Analogue recently and given a clean bill of health. He actually commented on the excellent sound quality and said he thought it superb. Anyway, I'd sell it for £550. I have two other ZYXs and a variety of other makes. So I'll part with this one. Currently well over £800 new.

[prestonchipfryer]

quote by Elephant Ears:


and it tracks so well that a record cleaner becomes redundant

:scratch:

I would think a record cleaner would be essential for any cartridge to track correctly the grooves of vinyl

[Elephantears]

I mean that the 50ANV locks in to the heart of the groove so well that it diminishes surface noise enormously.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Im not swapping mine, start saving up! :)

[Elephantears]

Unfortunately the Cadenza Black is at the price level that makes me come out in a cold sweat and dry throat, so I'll wait for a S/H example. Have you done much experimentation with different arms etc? I suppose you can't really go wrong with an SME 5.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not much experimentation mate, sorry. It's just been on my SME 3012 and sounds bloody lovely, but it's sounds best on the SME V and the 1210. If you cant afford the black, why not go and find a Rohman, or maybe a Cadenza bronze? I've had the Rohman and its a very very good cart, needs a decent arm though.

[Elephantears]

bump

[RobbieGong]

Hi Andrew, I'd love a Cadenza black but it's a bit pricey for my humble pockets. Like the 2M Black mm it shares the wonderful Shibata stylus profile. The 2M Black is a cart I could quite happilly live with forever. I think you'd be onto a winner with Ortofons new mc the Quintet Black which also carries that lovely Shibata stylus. It got a pretty good review in one of the hif mags last month and is described as a bargain at £695. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Andrew, I'd love a Cadenza black but it's a bit pricey for my humble pockets. Like the 2M Black mm it shares the wonderful Shibata stylus profile. The 2M Black is a cart I could quite happilly live with forever. I think you'd be onto a winner with Ortofons new mc the Quintet Black which also carries that lovely Shibata stylus. It got a pretty good review in one of the hif mags last month and is described as a bargain at £695. ;)

+1 with all of the above.

[Elephantears]

Hi Andrew, I'd love a Cadenza black but it's a bit pricey for my humble pockets. Like the 2M Black mm it shares the wonderful Shibata stylus profile. The 2M Black is a cart I could quite happilly live with forever. I think you'd be onto a winner with Ortofons new mc the Quintet Black which also carries that lovely Shibata stylus. It got a pretty good review in one of the hif mags last month and is described as a bargain at £695. ;)

Mmm, that's a thought. I like the 2M Black - it's really got guts and purpose, and the bass is just amazing. I borrowed one a while back and I've never found Jimmy Garrison's solo on 'A Love Supreme' so compelling. However I didn't find it had enough refinement and tonal detail. Classic MM vs MC virtues really. So yes, the mid-way option between 2M and Cadenza Black could well give me what I'm looking for. Thanks for the idea.

[Elephantears]

On the other hand, this report is rather damning;

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/comparison-between-the-ortofon-quintets-and-cadenzas.343106/

I take this seriously because it has problems with the voice and guitar on a Joni Mitchell record, and coincidentally that is precisely where I heard the slight harshness of the 2M Black (particularly on 'For The Roses'). Of course this is all in context. I've heard the 2M Black sound beautifully smooth in somebody else's system (on Tony L's Tannoys), but the 2M Black had a few raw edges in my system so it looks like the Quintet might show these characteristics too.

[RobbieGong]

On the other hand, this report is rather damning;

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/comparison-between-the-ortofon-quintets-and-cadenzas.343106/

I take this seriously because it has problems with the voice and guitar on a Joni Mitchell record, and coincidentally that is precisely where I heard the slight harshness of the 2M Black (particularly on 'For The Roses'). Of course this is all in context. I've heard the 2M Black sound beautifully smooth in somebody else's system (on Tony L's Tannoys), but the 2M Black had a few raw edges in my system so it looks like the Quintet might show these characteristics too.

Hi Andrew, I saw this review way back and I immediately thought 'take with a pinch of salt'. The reason for this is that the Shibata stylus requires particularly careful and precise setup due to it's profile. I have indeed experienced this myself. In fact Ortofon themselves recommend you use it on a deck with easy vta/vtf adjust. What I have found is get it wrong and the Black will display some harshness and not sound particularly special. On the other hand, when you get it right and it 'pops in' ie sweet spot is found it is absolutley gorgeous to listen to, smooth, air, holographic, timbre, seperation of parts and superb detail retrieval. This is why it has the reputation it has. It's often said it displays the characteristics of a good mc but without the complication you can get with mc set up.
Now back to that review. My guess is that Steve Hoffman didnt take or even have the time to give the Quintet Black the time and care that I or you would in our own systems while knowing the importance of proper meticulous set up. If you read the review it is clear he is 'swapping out' between different carts, hence his findings in my view. You just cant do that with a quality Shibata cart / stylus. The Shibata clad Ortofon carts are well regarded and smoothness is one of their traits amongst other things, ie Ortofon Jubilee, 2M Black and Cadenza Black. I think it was the recent HFW review of the Quintet Black which again described one of it's characterisctics as smooth. The harshness Steve describes does not in anyway go with my experience of the Shibata, exept and ONLY when I've not had it set up correctly. It has sometimes taken me absolutely ages to find that 'spot' but when I have - BINGO !!! absolutley fantastic. It just sounds so right.
BTW - Check the reviews of the 2M Black here, http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Black-Phono-Cartridge
particularly the all important customer reviews tab - not a bad review in sight and a fair amount of superlatives expressed. If I added a review that would be another one full of superlatives. I can only imagine that the Quintet Black mc will be in a similar vein of quality replay. Ortofon make some top carts and definately know what they are doing.
Personally I'd take very little notice of Steves review until more cutomer reviews start to come through which will happen over time. :)

[Elephantears]

Ok, Rob, thanks for your detailed reply and I take all your points seriously. The 2M Black in particular does seem to provoke extremely variable results, from 'greatest MM of all time' to 'a bit bright and harsh' and clearly much has to do with setup. Also loading seems to be critical, as Tony L has argued on pinkish. I feel I got the 2M Black reasonably well set up and I did not find it harsh; perhaps what I said about the Joni Mitchell record gave the wrong impression. It was very compelling and direct. However I was comparing it to a Benz Wood SL and that had more finesse and tonal detail. I felt that if I could merge the two into one I might have the cart of my dreams. Something like a Cadenza Black perhaps? But of course I did not give the 2M Black the attention of continued ownership and experimentation. If that's what it takes, well fair enough. After all, I repositioned my ESL 63s at least 3000 times before getting it right. As always with carts, the truth is hearing it in your system and giving set up due care and attention. But that is what is so damned difficult to do!

[RobbieGong]

Ok, Rob, thanks for your detailed reply and I take all your points seriously. The 2M Black in particular does seem to provoke extremely variable results, from 'greatest MM of all time' to 'a bit bright and harsh' and clearly much has to do with setup. Also loading seems to be critical, as Tony L has argued on pinkish. I feel I got the 2M Black reasonably well set up and I did not find it harsh; perhaps what I said about the Joni Mitchell record gave the wrong impression. It was very compelling and direct. However I was comparing it to a Benz Wood SL and that had more finesse and tonal detail. I felt that if I could merge the two into one I might have the cart of my dreams. Something like a Cadenza Black perhaps? But of course I did not give the 2M Black the attention of continued ownership and experimentation. If that's what it takes, well fair enough. After all, I repositioned my ESL 63s at least 3000 times before getting it right. As always with carts, the truth is hearing it in your system and giving set up due care and attention. But that is what is so damned difficult to do!

I hear ya Andrew and appreciate your experiences. Like you I'd love to get my hands on a Cadenza Black which is always said to be very neutral alongside all it's other great traits. One day !! ;)

[Elephantears]

I'm still looking for something interesting, to buy not to swap. I'm going to keep the AT50ANV because I have learned a lot about how to set it up properly. However it is still very low output in my system, so I'm interested in trying other carts around 0.3mV.

I'm also interested in trying valve phono stages that can cope with an output of 0.12mV.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Have you thought a second hand Kiseki, Supex, or Koetsu cart? I've a Koetsu black goldline which I love. I'd like to try a Supex, but getting one for a decent price is another thing... :rolleyes:

[Elephantears]

I'd love to hear a Kiseki Blue, but they're up there in the Cadenza Black price range, so too much, unless I can get one from Japan perhaps. I would imagine the chance of picking one up second hand is slim. I don't know about Supex; are there any in particular that you've read about and sound promising (and something in the region of affordable).

[Wakefield Turntables]

Supex are designed by the same guy that designed Koetsu's, I'll let you do the research but they are quite well thought of. I would image a 900S might be a good starting point for you.

[twotone]

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?106120-I-would-like-to-swap-my-collection-of-Supex-for-a-top-notch-MM-or-high-output-MC