Leak 20 into Harbeth P3ESR

[IHP]

I'm currently selling my EAR Integrated as I wish to go back to Croft. Whilst it's boxed up I'm running a Leak 20 from the variable output of my Quad CD-P to drive my Harbs. Should 10w a side do the job ? Surprisingly yes. I have used this combo before with a pre amp in the mix but hadn't recalled how lush all sounded. Ok, I've not put any rock on yet and don't expect wonders when I do but for now I think I'll get by !

[Gordon Steadman]

I find the Leak will drive almost anything and to decent levels too. I can never understand the need to have different amps for different music. 25 years of using the Stereo 20 has seen me through any type of music i wanted to play. I have only just found an amp that I prefer (Firebottle OTL)

The leak has driven all types of speaker in that time from the 57s though IMF transmission lines to LS3 5As, even some big old Tannoys (not my favourite). Enjoyed them all.

[jandl100]

I find the Leak will drive almost anything and to decent levels too.

Yep, I agree with that.
As a rule, I've found that power is overrated - pun intended ;) - it can be very surprising how few watts most music actually needs into most speakers. The 10wpc from a Leak Stereo 20 can go a hell of a long way, as can the 8wpc from the small t-amps, for example.


I can never understand the need to have different amps for different music.

Ah well, I disagree with that! I can give numerous examples of amps being very good at some types of music but not others. :)
But the Leak is indeed one of the best all-rounders I have come across; gutsy enough for power music but subtley nuanced at lower levels for more delicate fare. --Not all amps can do that by any means - I suspect you've just hit it lucky with using that particular amp, Gordon.

[Gordon Steadman]

Ah well, I disagree with that! I can give numerous examples of amps being very good at some types of music but not others. :)
But the Leak is indeed one of the best all-rounders I have come across; gutsy enough for power music but subtley nuanced at lower levels for more delicate fare. -- I suspect you've just hit it lucky with using that particular amp, Gordon.

Guess so. Since I found the Leak in the attic in a house I bought in Suffolk [ :-) ] I have used nothing else for any length of time. I have used different pre-amps with it with success. Quad 34 was OK but the Creek passive did a good job for me. Right now, its singing away upstairs with a Sugden C51 - sounds great into KEF 101s.

[IHP]

All interesting stuff and great to hear the experience of others. I'll put some Ramones or Led Zep on later ! My Leak is a Classique Sounds rebuild and I do rate Pauls work. Maybe I'll just get a Croft pre and be done with it.

[Macca]

Guess so. Since I found the Leak in the attic in a house I bought in Suffolk [ :-) ] .

You lucky swine. I had a look in my attic once in the hope of finding treasure but there was nothing but a whole load of greasy black crap that rained down on me, I was in the shower for ages after trying to wash it out of my hair.

My experience has been that amps with quality power supply regulation will drive anything happily, watts per channel is a bit of a red herring. Traffos on the old Leak will be very good I suspect. On the other hand I would suggest that an amp/speaker combination that cannot do all types of music equally well is badly flawed somewhere.

[Gordon Steadman]

All interesting stuff and great to hear the experience of others. I'll put some Ramones or Led Zep on later ! My Leak is a Classique Sounds rebuild and I do rate Pauls work. Maybe I'll just get a Croft pre and be done with it.

Now that does sound like a plan. I just got a rebuild kit from a place I can't remember and replaced like with like. Apart from a small fix for channel balance by Alan (Firebottle) recently, thats all I've needed to do in 25 years apart from one new set of valves.

[Gordon Steadman]

You lucky swine.

Yup. And..... the pre-amp, Troughline and Garrard 301 :cool::yay:

[jandl100]

.... On the other hand I would suggest that an amp/speaker combination that cannot do all types of music equally well is badly flawed somewhere.

Well, nothing is perfect - the trick is to find the combo that does best across the breadth of your musical tastes.

If I suddenly had a passion for techno-dance I'd definitely be investigating different amp capabilities --- I fondly recall a visiting Wammer bringing his re-fettled vintage New Zealand solid state muscle amp round (I forget what it was - Perreaux 2150b, that's probably it!) - My Gawd it was stunning with his dance music on my speakers; the slam and visceral impact of the bass was quite literally jaw dropping, I've never heard anything like it - but it screeched like hell on classical, awful!
Horses for courses, Martin. :)

[walpurgis]

Good trusty amp the Stereo 20. Fine sound too and it drives any speaker I've tried, including the notoriously insensitive @ 83db, Celestion SL600Si.

[The Barbarian]

Harold Leak was the man, the old Barbarian holds him in high regard..

[fiddlemaker]

Hope no-one minds if I ask a related question about power?

I recently bought a s/h Croft 7R, and it turns out it's a one-off custom version originally built for very sensitive speakers. Output power 25W rather than the standard 55W. Apparently Glenn could return it to standard spec by replacing the transformer if I so wished.

Anyway, my question is, if an amp drives your speakers to the listening levels you want (which it comfortably does, at no more than 1/2 to 2/3 max output on the preamp) does it by definition have enough power? Or are reserves of power needed for good transient performance? I'm very happy with the 7R, but I do feel it lacks a certain slam on bass and drums that my old (and decidedly inferior in most respects) 70W SS amp had. So might it be wise to have the amp returned to 55W?

[Macca]

Hope no-one minds if I ask a related question about power?

I recently bought a s/h Croft 7R, and it turns out it's a one-off custom version originally built for very sensitive speakers. Output power 25W rather than the standard 55W. Apparently Glenn could return it to standard spec by replacing the transformer if I so wished.

Anyway, my question is, if an amp drives your speakers to the listening levels you want (which it comfortably does, at no more than 1/2 to 2/3 max output on the preamp) does it by definition have enough power? Or are reserves of power needed for good transient performance? I'm very happy with the 7R, but I do feel it lacks a certain slam on bass and drums that my old (and decidedly inferior in most respects) 70W SS amp had. So might it be wise to have the amp returned to 55W?

My personal take is that you need to look at the amp's ability to deliver current rather than watts per channel. If it starts to struggle you will get a softening of the sound like you describe. I tried a 7 series power amp (not the R) but it did not like the difficult load presented by the speakers I was using. Where the volume control is gives no indication of ability to put out power although there is a perception that if you can't get the volume up very high without it sounding loud then the amp must be 'powerful' so lots of amps are deliberately designed that way to impress in the showroom. If you don't listen to music with a lot of dynamics you don't need to worry likewise if the speakers are an easy load and very sensitive it won't matter either. If you have 'normal' speakers and like dynamics then you need a lot of power i.e watts and current in order to be sure that transients won't get softened and that the amp won't clip on peaks. And bear in mind that if it sounds 'loud' you are hearing distortion due to clipping. If the amp is not clipping it will never sound loud and you can keep increasing the SPL until the speakers die or you damage your hearing.

Short answer you could get the amp swapped back to 55 watts but it may not solve the problem with lack of slam.

[fiddlemaker]

Thank you, Martin.
Is it not the case that if I went back to 55W the amp would be able to deliver 55/25 times as much current, in which case I might have a reasonable chance of enjoying Martin Ace and Terry Williams in their former glory?

[Macca]

Maybe but not necessarily. Probably best to ask Croft directly. Out of interest what speakers are you trying to drive?

[fiddlemaker]

Maybe but not necessarily. Probably best to ask Croft directly. Out of interest what speakers are you trying to drive?

neat elite.
I should stress that this isn't a major problem. More a question of whether getting the amp uprated to standard 55W stands a reasonable chance of not being a waste of money.

[Macca]

Well I suspect Glen Croft will be able to give you a definitive answer to that. Even if he can't you will then have a standard spec Croft 7R you can sell to fund a new power amp. Croft gear sells pretty fast on the used market.

[Haselsh1]

Back in 2009, I was using a Creek passive into a Samson Servo 600 power amp and the slam could have knocked at the back door with its power but then I bought a Croft pre/power combination and all of a sudden, there was quality. OK so the sound was soft and gentle and everso slightly restrained but I found that it no longer suited my electronic music as it was more than a tad gutless but the amount of detail that this amplifier displayed was astonishing.

In short, I love my music to sound a certain way and I love to listen to electronic music so I have to concede that the Croft is definitely not for me. I need power and slam and the Croft just couldn't do it, certainly not into the Dali's I had at that time.

[fiddlemaker]

Wouldn't describe the sound of my 7R as "soft and gentle" at all.
And I certainly find it much, much better in the "slam' department than a Stereo 20 (an amp I lived with and enjoyed for several years), while having most of its other positive attributes.

[Jimbo]

Wouldn't describe the sound of my 7R as "soft and gentle" at all.
And I certainly find it much, much better in the "slam' department than a Stereo 20 (an amp I lived with and enjoyed for several years), while having most of its other positive attributes.

I agree john, i had a Leak Stereo 20 modified by Mr Croft and it was certainly a lot more laid back than the Series 7 and certainly did not have the same amount of grunt and slam. I must admit I can only speak for the Series 7 as I have not heard a 7R. How do these compare by the way?

[Macca]

Wouldn't describe the sound of my 7R as "soft and gentle" at all.
And I certainly find it much, much better in the "slam' department than a Stereo 20 (an amp I lived with and enjoyed for several years), while having most of its other positive attributes.

Well, it is all relative. A big pro/semi pro power amp is always going to have a lot of bass punch and slam and swapping to a relatively low powered domestic amp is naturally going to be a step down in that regard. Also it is important to consider the pre-amp in the equation - you can hook up different pre amps to the same power amp and get quite radically different presentations - nothing is ever simple or straight forward in hi-fi much as we would like it to be. It is possible to get a combination of slam and authority with delicacy and subtlety but the pre-amp, power amp and loudspeakers all need to be considered as a whole. Of the three the power amp really matters the least provided it can drive the chosen speakers - in my experience, that is.

[IHP]

Played something rocky last night and I have to say that a Leak 20 into Harbeth P3ESRs is somewhat sluggish with this, and perhaps no surprise. Acoustic and is just stunning though. Should have the Crofts soon, an assured combination ;-)

[fiddlemaker]

I agree john, i had a Leak Stereo 20 modified by Mr Croft and it was certainly a lot more laid back than the Series 7 and certainly did not have the same amount of grunt and slam. I must admit I can only speak for the Series 7 as I have not heard a 7R. How do these compare by the way?

I know someone with a good pair of lugs (professional arranger/composer/conductor) who auditioned both the 7 and 7R and bought the 7. Said it sounded more natural.