View Full Version : A Note To Non-believers re Mains Cables
Clive197
10-04-2014, 16:35
A complaint was made to the Advertising Standards Authority re Russ Andrews claims about mains-borne RFI in mains cables. The ASA told Russ Andrews not to imply that RFI from mains electricity was a perceptible problem or that their products could reduce mains-borne RFI unless they held robust substantiation to show that was the case.
In response Russ Andrews got 3C Test Ltd., an independent UKAS Accredited EMC certified test facility, to test the cables and they found they DID suppress RF noise. Consequently the ASA threw out the complaint.
Finally a nail (I'm sure more will still be needed) in the coffin of Nay-Sayers.
Clive
losenotaminute
10-04-2014, 16:41
Hi Clive, a link to the research would be helpful.
I'm personally not a nay-sayer, I'm what you might call an agnostic.
Even if cables do cut down RFI, I would still want to check that RFI in my home environment makes an audible difference, and that the same benefit cannot be gained by using a well shielded "standard" cable that doesn't cost more than a few quid. The problem is that a lot of the claims that hifi cable manufacturers make relate to electromagnetic phenomena that are outwith the audible range.
walpurgis
10-04-2014, 16:58
Screening of audio cables is an accepted practice. However the audio benefits of fancy and expensive mains cables are something I remain to be convinced about, regardless of screening.
Screening of audio cables is an accepted practice. However the audio benefits of fancy and expensive mains cables are something I remain to be convinced about, regardless of screening.
Certainly not something to worry about anywhere near as much as speaker cables and interconnects.
Now your nearest neighbour is half a mile away. What RFI?
A complaint was made to the Advertising Standards Authority re Russ Andrews claims about mains-borne RFI in mains cables. The ASA told Russ Andrews not to imply that RFI from mains electricity was a perceptible problem or that their products could reduce mains-borne RFI unless they held robust substantiation to show that was the case.
In response Russ Andrews got 3C Test Ltd., an independent UKAS Accredited EMC certified test facility, to test the cables and they found they DID suppress RF noise. Consequently the ASA threw out the complaint.
Finally a nail (I'm sure more will still be needed) in the coffin of Nay-Sayers.
Ha - well done, Russ! 'Get it right up ye', as they say in Glasgow!! :upyours:
Thanks for sharing that, Clive.
Marco.
fuuny you posted this as i was the person who made the complaint.
my reason for doing so was because although i am sure the cable did as it was said in the rfi department.
the advert used the term 'we believe' regarding it improving sound meaning it was just their belief
and if your spending the type of money that lead cost it should be night and day.
the testing done by 3c testing was not in relation to the complaint
that test was done way before my complaint
the advert made a big play of that testing
the asa agreed that no claim of if it could improve sound should be made as ra use of the term 'we believe' could lead people to believe it could.
but in the final ruling it was decided that ra did not brake any rules in the advert.
never was it about if it rejected rfi,that was never in doubt
it was their claims that it could make any difference to the sound
i did in the past buy a ra mains lead and found it made no difference to the sound of my system.
it is all a personal things
i am sure for every person who thinks it does another may not agree.
i now use cheap kettle leads.
when your charging the money that ra was with regards to the lead i complained about
and listing research carried out by 3c testing, then it should really improve the sound.
i doubt they can prove it does improve the sound in a blind test.
if they could then they would not use terms like 'we believe' which the asa agreed with.
as said the complaint was rejected.
since "improve the sound" is a completely subjective statement, why would he ever state anything other than he believed, and why would you expect otherwise?
the only thing that could be objectively proved are things like RFI rejection
because i felt the advert gave the impression that because the cable rejected RFI that it would also improve the sound
and when they are charging around £1000 for the mains cable in question they should made it very clear that the cable
rejected rfi but if it improves home audio is a personal choice.
in short i questioned 1, if the rejection of rfi made a real difference in the home setting and 2. the advert did not make it clear enough in rejecting rfi did not mean the sound would be improved.
i felt as they were charging so much for the cable they should make that more clear.
but the final decision was this was not the case.
http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2014/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_228690.aspx
Thanks for the input lovers23, I suppose many cables under £100 do a great job of rejecting RFI nevermind a grand's worth.
'We believe' means just that - an opinion. It doesn't look on the face of it that they were making any kind of promise or scientific statement. How is this different from the hundreds of skin care products, for instance, that claim you will look younger?
Surely it's a case of let the buyer beware. Or taken responsibility for your own purchase decision.
The reality with face cream is that it coats and absorbs into the top layer of the epidermis, which is effectively dead skin. Thus, these creams can and do reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles in much the same way as conditioners coat the hair to make it more shiny. No they don't reverse ageing skin, but they can definitely show a cosmetic improvement. Hey that's why this stuff is called cosmetics, right?
I should also add that skin is waterproof, but dead skin isn't, so these creams aren't going to be going further than feeling and looking better rather than actual "rejuvenation".
I 'believe' that spending that kind of bunce on any cable is a waste of said bunce.
A N Other may 'believe' the opposite.
Choice.
I 'believe' that spending that kind of bunce on any cable is a waste of said bunce.
A N Other may 'believe' the opposite.
Choice.
Surely its not about belief but about listening.
If you can,t hear the difference it makes the decision easy.
I would never purchase anything according to someones elses belief or opinion. I have to hear it my self - simples:)
Now your nearest neighbour is half a mile away. What RFI?
Mobile phone? wireless router? Both are known sources of RFI
Mobile phone? wireless router? Both are known sources of RFI
Do you believe that the tiny output from those domestic devices is sufficent to be audible in your or my system?
What may be more audible being far greater in RF output power is that I have a mobile phone mast, transmitter, 30 m away from my home and experience nothing audible in my system. Certainly putting a mains cable sold as shielding the mains supply to my system from RFI made no audible difference/benefit/improvement.
Maybe I am lucky - no click or ticks or noises from things switching on/off, microwave does not make anything audible. From what I read on forum I think I am most fortunate compared with some poor souls electricity woes. But I do use a mains regenerator.
It's not what we think can be a problem that is the real problem - its what we can hear. Or is it thinking that there might be a problem that is the problem?
Do you suffer with what you believe is RFI at your home?
Edit:
Mobile mast transmits on 2 frequencies
900 mhz 22.8 dBW
2100 MHz 28.9 dBW
thats a bit more than any domestic appliance
Until recently I was sceptical rather than a nay-sayer. However, being keen to see how much performance I could squeeze out of my set-up I did buy some 'entry-level' Merlin mains cables for my amp and CD player on a promise I could return them if they didn't make any difference.
I'm convinced they have made a difference - almost akin to having a window cleaned when it has a layer of dust on it. They haven't changed the character of the sound at all, but have resulted in a cleaner, clearer view of the music.
I'm not sure I would go any further beyond the Tarantula Mk6 cables I've got, but I certainly wouldn't go back to the basic mains cables now.
Do you believe that the tiny output from those domestic devices is sufficent to be audible in your or my system?
I don't know about in your system, as I haven't heard it, but in many others, including my own, yes. However, it's much more about the cumulative effect various types of interference/noise have on the performance of a genuinely high-resolution hi-fi system, than the specific effect of one form of interference, such as RFI.
It's the deleterious cumulative sonic effect of noise generated by all items (hi-fi and domestic-related) that use switch-mode PSUs, when they're connected to the same electrical supply as any high-resolution audio system, that's the real problem - and in today's gadget-obsessed, computer-driven society, we're filling our homes with more and more of that stuff every day!!
Therefore, if we can hear the detrimental sonic effect of that noise on music reproduced by our systems, then we must seek to isolate them from it as much as possible. It's really that simple.
In my (considerable experience), mains power cables, judiciously designed for hi-fi purposes by specialist manufacturers, address the issue of said noise/interference and considerably help to ameliorate its detrimental sonic effect - and such suitably designed power cables need not always be expensive.
Marco.
PaulStewart
11-04-2014, 20:14
fuuny you posted this as i was the person who made the complaint/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=lovers23;541144]because i felt the advert gave the impression that because the cable rejected RFI that it would also improve the sound and when they are charging around £1000 for the mains cable in question they should made it very clear that the cable rejected rfi but if it improves home audio is a personal chice
Quick question Jason, did you have any intention of purchasing the cable in question, or were you just stirring? If the later what have you achieved apart from wasting RA's time and money and ultimately pushing up the price (business overheads have to be made up somehow) for the people who may want the product.
Yeah, I agree. I'm tempted to say 'get a life', but am too polite to do so... ;)
How anyone could feel sufficiently motivated to complain about something so utterly trivial is beyond me.
Marco.
I'm about to relocate my hifi and wireless router.
Currently have no option but to use internet over mains to get my networked digital system to work, although mains goes through a regenerator before powering hifi. NAS and streamer connected by local hub.
After relocation, was hoping to have router in same cabinet as hifi, to connect everything in one place and not have internet on mains.
So by putting router next to hifi, is it going to sound like a Maestro Diesel?
Practical recommendations appreciated.
Hi Steven,
If you have no other option, I wouldn't worry about it. Is it not possible to keep the router as far away from your system components as its power cable will allow (sat on the floor, for example, away from everything else) - does it have to be inside the cabinet?
Marco.
Given that the improvements tend to be subjective and RA gives a trial period I don't see the problem. If you don't think the change in sound warrants the cost then send it back. And no, I haven' t got any.
I thought the advert was misleading and that ra was up to what they had got in trouble for before
so i made the complaint.
the asa decided there was a case to answer.
if they never thought as such they would not have taken it further.
they made up their report as to why they thought asa done wrong and sent it to the body to then makes the ruling
that body decided not to upheld the complaint.
it is only when people take action when they see a company acting in a dishonest way that things improve.
in this case the complaint was not upheld but i do not regret making the complaint at all.
Yeah, I agree. I'm tempted to say 'get a life', but am too polite to do so... ;)
How anyone could feel sufficiently motivated to complain about something so utterly trivial is beyond me.
Marco.
i do not see my actions no different to your actions in replying to this thread.
you did not agree with my actions and thought i was silly to take action over something so utterly trivial and you took the time to type your comments
that is your right
i did not agree with their advert so i made the complaint.
it must have taken no more then 10 mins.
it is the purpose of the asa
to take action when a company has adverts that are misleading.
i'm thankful that there are people out there who do complain when they see a advert that they believe is misleading because those people mean that company's are held to account for adverts.
not everyone's complaint is upheld but thankgod there are people out there who give a toss.
of cause you do not agree with my actions which is fair enough and i respect your right to think as such.
for me though, i thought the advert was wrong and so i complained.
it does not mean i do not have a life
anymore then you leaving a comment on this thread means you do not have a life.
Each to his or her own, I guess, Jason. If I was to take the trouble to make an official complaint like that, I'd make sure that it was over something that *really* mattered.
Are you also the sort who writes into the BBC to moan if someone says "bum" before the watershed?
Anyway, I have to be honest and say I'm glad that the complaint wasn't upheld... Russ 1 Moaning Old Git 0!!
;)
Marco.
I think being persuaded to part with £1000 for just the manufacturer's BELIEF that it does what it says on the tin is akin to something like homeopathy..
Imagine if someone said that they "believed" that a pill or a diet cured cancer and were allowed to advertise in that way.. it would be wholly irresponsible of someone to turn their back on that and say "people make their choices" leave it up to them. Perhaps for some £1000 is not a big deal, but at some level it is irresponsible to turn your back on similar claims about a £1000 cable lest vulnerable others be taken in.
That's why the ASA is there, to listen to such accusations of malpractice and then make a decision.
I congratulate Jason on having the gumption and community spirit to question RA's right to advertise a product implying an ability to do something simply on the potentially religious beliefs of the manufacturer (which are of course biased and could well be a lie - who's to say he really believes it makes a difference, that's it's not deliberate BS ?).
If he parted with £1000 based on RA's beliefs and found it didn't do as claimed (improve the sound of the system) then he has every right to complain in my view.
Because it's just stated as a belief, it's fair though that ASA decided not to uphold it though, I guess. I'm not sure how you can regulate such carefully worded claims - they would indeed have to try to find out if that personal belief was real or a lie.. like some leaked email exchange laughing at the suckers buying it.
In other words, if you have a £1000 cable to sell, describe the cable,\perhaps explain why it's expensive to make, and let the buyer ascertain as to whether they want it based on THEIR beliefs - don't go making claims about it yourself for which you have no proof and cannot EVER prove. Sadly though, this is half of the industry and it deliberately subverts and abuses people's open minds and subjective leanings.
jandl100
13-04-2014, 05:52
Imagine if someone said that they "believed" that a pill or a diet cured cancer and were allowed to advertise in that way.. it would be wholly irresponsible of someone to turn their back on that and say "people make their choices" leave it up to them.
But the "red top" newspapers (Daily Mirror, Mail, Express etc) do that all the time -- every couple of months they come up with banner headlines about the latest 'cure for cancer' or whatever. Knowingly misleading and totally irresponsible, and done only to boost circulation. A complete and utter disgrace, imho.
And they get away with it.
And then someone comes along to take the trouble to complain about a hifi ad from a long established company with probably thousands of loyal and satisfied customers. :rolleyes:
Do some charity work if you've got time to spare. :thumbsup:
prestonchipfryer
13-04-2014, 07:23
How anyone can compare cancer to a mains lead is ludicrous. Who cares if it's £1,000 or £10. Why waste everyone's time with this puerile nonsense. It's a bloody turnoff.
jandl100
13-04-2014, 07:30
There are 29,057 other threads to look at if you don't like this one. ;)
prestonchipfryer
13-04-2014, 07:38
:sofa:
But the "red top" newspapers (Daily Mirror, Mail, Express etc) do that all the time -- every couple of months they come up with banner headlines about the latest 'cure for cancer' or whatever. Knowingly misleading and totally irresponsible, and done only to boost circulation. A complete and utter disgrace, imho.
And they get away with it.
And then someone comes along to take the trouble to complain about a hifi ad from a long established company with probably thousands of loyal and satisfied customers.
Do some charity work if you've got time to spare.
Precisely, Jerry... There's a slight difference between launching an official complaint about a misleading ad for a cancer cure and doing the same over claims for a fooking hi-fi cable! :doh:
I too laugh at some of the pish advertised in the RA's 'product comic', designed to continually part people from their hard-earned dosh, but do I feel suitably irked to officially complain about it? No, of course not: because like most folk, I've got far more important things to worry about. It's simply very clever marketing. If you get sucked into it, blame no-one but yourself.
You read the blurb in RA's catalogue, the same as you would do with any advert for cables sold on an Internet website, and decide whether or not to take a punt on them - I'm sure that all of us here have done that many times, and not just with cables. At least with RA, you get a 60-day home trial and money back guarantee!
Whether said cables end up improving your hi-fi system in the way you'd expected, or had been described subjectively on the website advertising the cables, is simply a chance you take. There are no guarantees for sonic performance!!
So why don't the 'moaning minnies' amongst us target those Internet websites instead of RA? Simple: because he's the big-bad wolf, in the eyes of the 'measurists', and gets up their noses and those of other foo-bashing obsessed consumer saviours, who continually need 'scientific proof' to confirm their audio experiences, and are annoyed by those of us with the gumption to trust our ears. As far as I'm concerned, long may RA continue to be a thorn in their sides! :upyours:
If he parted with £1000 based on RA's beliefs and found it didn't do as claimed (improve the sound of the system) then he has every right to complain in my view.
So what's the difference between that an an Internet seller advertising a £1000 pair of speakers and claiming that: "the sonic performance on offer from the Reference Studio Monitors MKII SE is nothing short of revelatory. Prepare to be astounded by hearing the sound of musicians performing live in your living room!", buying them on that basis, and when listening to them, discovering that said musicians had decided to stay at home?
Would you somehow feel 'unfairly duped'? Why is that any different from RA making similarly ridiculous claims about his cables?
Marco.
How anyone can compare cancer to a mains lead is ludicrous. Who cares if it's £1,000 or £10. Why waste everyone's time with this puerile nonsense.
:clap: :yesbruv:
Marco.
So what's the difference between that an an Internet seller advertising a £1000 pair of speakers and claiming that: "the sonic performance on offer from the Reference Studio Monitors MKII SE is nothing short of revelatory. Prepare to be astounded by hearing the sound of musicians performing live in your living room!", buying them on that basis, and when listening to them, discovering that said musicians had decided to stay at home?
Would you somehow feel 'unfairly duped'? Why is that any different from RA making similarly ridiculous claims about his cables?
Marco.
Good point, well made.
The Black Adder
13-04-2014, 08:18
I look at their comic and have a laugh and it then goes in the bin. (Great toilet reading) The marketing is clever I agree... But the fluffyness of the fluff puts me off... bells start to ring and sirens go off.
Some of the stuff in there 'might' work, but then I'd just ask someone like Nick Gorham, AnthonyTD or someone who know their onions to make one for me... It would probably work out cheaper and have a product that equally as good or more than likely even better.
I look at their comic and have a laugh and it then goes in the bin. (Great toilet reading) The marketing is clever I agree... But the fluffyness of the fluff puts me off... bells start to ring and sirens go off.
Some of the stuff in there 'might' work, but then I'd just ask someone like Nick Gorham, AnthonyTD or someone who know their onions to make one for me... It would probably work out cheaper and have a product that equally as good or more than likely even better.
Exactly - and that's precisely what I do, and then get on with enjoying life, rather than moaning like a girl about what in the grand scheme of things is an irrelevance.
Marco.
jandl100
13-04-2014, 08:23
I look at their comic and have a laugh and it then goes in the bin. (Great toilet reading) The marketing is clever I agree... But the fluffyness of the fluff puts me off... bells start to ring and sirens go off.
Yes, I quite agree.
Some of the stuff in there 'might' work, but then I'd just ask someone like Nick Gorham, AnthonyTD or someone who know their onions to make one for me... It would probably work out cheaper and have a product that equally as good or more than likely even better.
Yep, I was about to post something along the lines of the RA/Kimber "technology" being similar or equivalent to many/most of the audiophile mains cables, some of which get very good press here on AOS.
It's just the OTT advertising that gets up some folks noses, I think
It's just the OTT advertising that gets up some folks noses, I think...
And jealousy because sales of his products have made RA a rich man ;)
Good on him, I say! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 08:50
And jealousy because sales of his products have made RA a rich man ;)
Good on him, I say! :thumbsup:
Marco.
So basically, anything that makes someone rich is good?? Rather like a US conman getting obscenely rich by selling the 'rapture' to a load of ignorant peasants. Its OK because they have the choice of believing such nonsense or not of course.:scratch:
I'm surprised to see that measurements are now suddenly A Good Thing in the eyes of AoS.
So basically, anything that makes someone rich is good?? Rather like a US conman getting obscenely rich by selling the 'rapture' to a load of ignorant peasants. Its OK because they have the choice of believing such nonsense or not of course.:scratch:
Nope, bizarre as it may seem, Gordon, I don't have a problem with anyone making a legal living from selling hi-fi products, 'foo-related' or otherwise.
RA's not forcing you to buy his stuff. If you're gullible enough to believe some of the claims in his comic, then more fool you! Simples :)
What I don't like are self-appointed consumer saviours.
Marco.
The whole issue raises a wider philosophical question which is how much independence should people have to make their own decisions, their own mistakes and to live with the consequences?
Should we assume that people are in general idiot children who need to be saved from themselves and have everything prescribed for them by the law and the State or should we simply let everyone just get on with it and stand or fall by their own decisions? I am personally not in favour of such intervention. It emasculates us and prevents us from learning and growing, we remain perpetual infants reliant on others who think they know better to make our decisions for us. IMO It is destroying Western Civilisation and it gets worse every day.
kininigin
13-04-2014, 09:15
I really don't understand why people get so heated up about things like this! You would think half of us are incappable of putting our socks on in the morning! I've seen a few of these types of discussions over different forums and to me it's quite simple! If you think it's bollocks or a rip off don't buy! That's it isn't it? Would i buy a cable that costs 1k? No,Would i care if someone else did? No,as it's none of my business and doesn't effect me!
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 09:16
The whole issue raises a wider philosophical question which is how much independence should people have to make their own decisions, their own mistakes and to live with the consequences?
Should we assume that people are in general idiot children who need to be saved from themselves and have everything prescribed for them by the law and the State or should we simply let everyone just get on with it and stand or fall by their own decisions? I am personally not in favour of such intervention. It emasculates us and prevents us from learning and growing, we remain perpetual infants reliant on others who think they know better to make our decisions for us. IMO It is destroying Western Civilisation and it gets worse every day.
Basically I agree with this. However, there does seem to be a point where fraud is involved and some people are undoubtedly incapable of protecting themselves from the conmen. Caveat emptor may apply but in a decent society, some attempt should be made to stop the lambs being fed to the lions. The problem is knowing where to draw the line. These days, the line is being drawn a bit too high it seems to me but it would be nice to think that someone is looking out for the lambs occasionally.
kininigin
13-04-2014, 09:17
The whole issue raises a wider philosophical question which is how much independence should people have to make their own decisions, their own mistakes and to live with the consequences?
Should we assume that people are in general idiot children who need to be saved from themselves and have everything prescribed for them by the law and the State or should we simply let everyone just get on with it and stand or fall by their own decisions? I am personally not in favour of such intervention. It emasculates us and prevents us from learning and growing, we remain perpetual infants reliant on others who think they know better to make our decisions for us. IMO It is destroying Western Civilisation and it gets worse every day.
Haha,great minds think alike! Or is it that it is a perfectly simple situation of people having the freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't effect anyone else!
Basically I agree with this. However, there does seem to be a point where fraud is involved and some people are undoubtedly incapable of protecting themselves from the conmen. Caveat emptor may apply but in a decent society, some attempt should be made to stop the lambs being fed to the lions. The problem is knowing where to draw the line. These days, the line is being drawn a bit too high it seems to me but it would be nice to think that someone is looking out for the lambs occasionally.
Yes I agree no-one wants to let those wankers who rip off old ladies pensions to be able to get away with it. But solve the problem at source, teach people to be lions and not lambs. What we have now is a system that deliberately creates lambs.
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 09:37
Talking of lambs to the slaughter, can someone please protect me from the likes of this crazy. She is coming to a town hall near me soon and I fear for my sanity if I meet her.
http://www.shirleybattie.com/author/
Sorry for the thread drift but it sort of applies.....:mental:
kininigin
13-04-2014, 09:40
Talking of lambs to the slaughter, can someone please protect me from the likes of this crazy. She is coming to a town hall near me soon and I fear for my sanity if I meet her.
http://www.shirleybattie.com/author/
Sorry for the thread drift but it sort of applies.....:mental:
You are free to go or not go! Simple.
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 09:41
You are free to go or not go! Simple.
Obviously.
Talking of lambs to the slaughter, can someone please protect me from the likes of this crazy. She is coming to a town hall near me soon and I fear for my sanity if I meet her.
http://www.shirleybattie.com/author/
Sorry for the thread drift but it sort of applies.....:mental:
Lol - Just read a little of the extract from her book. Carlos Castenada was doing this schtick fifty years ago, the difference seems to be he was good at it.
kininigin
13-04-2014, 09:44
Obviously.
Well ok then.Condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance.
Talking of lambs to the slaughter, can someone please protect me from the likes of this crazy. She is coming to a town hall near me soon and I fear for my sanity if I meet her.
http://www.shirleybattie.com/author/
Sorry for the thread drift but it sort of applies.....:mental:
There are quite a few nutters living in Dorset Gordon, I'm one of them :lol:
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 10:14
Well ok then.Condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance.
What investigation does it take when the inmates have taken over the asylum?
So much for the rational mind, the human race is doomed - doomed I tell 'ee.
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 10:14
There are quite a few nutters living in Dorset Gordon, I'm one of them :lol:
Nice to know I'm not alone:cool:
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 10:40
Well ok then.Condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance.
By the way, you assume I have not investigated this sort of stuff. During the time I been alive, my penetration into the unprovable arts has admittedly, been brief. However, I can safely say that in every case, it has proved to be right up there with the tooth fairy, leprechauns and father christmas.
walpurgis
13-04-2014, 10:42
I really don't understand why people get so heated up about things like this! You would think half of us are incappable of putting our socks on in the morning! I've seen a few of these types of discussions over different forums and to me it's quite simple! If you think it's bollocks or a rip off don't buy! That's it isn't it? Would i buy a cable that costs 1k? No,Would i care if someone else did? No,as it's none of my business and doesn't effect me!
No, people should not be allowed to make life decisions on their own. For goodness sake, there are people out there who buy speakers that are NOT Tannoys. Just goes to show! ;)
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 10:44
For goodness sake, there are people out there who buy speakers that are NOT Tannoys. Just goes to show! ;)
Wow, there must be more rational people out there than I thought:lol:
losenotaminute
13-04-2014, 13:25
Nope, bizarre as it may seem, Gordon, I don't have a problem with anyone making a legal living from selling hi-fi products, 'foo-related' or otherwise.
RA's not forcing you to buy his stuff. If you're gullible enough to believe some of the claims in his comic, then more fool you! Simples :)
What I don't like are self-appointed consumer saviours.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Whilst Russ Andrews has the right to sell foo products, he does not IMO have the right to make unwarranted claims about them. Are you saying that RA should be allowed to advertise his products in any way he sees fit and it's entirely up to the consumer to look after themselves? Would this apply to all products or only hifi products? How would you draw the line between which products you would feel a complaint was justified over and which you would not?
Personally, I am grateful to people who are prepared to appoint themselves self-appointed consumer saviours and take the trouble to complain through the proper channels when they feel that unjustified claims are being made. In this case, Russ Andrews was found not to be making unsubstantiated claims, and hence the system worked. Presumably, if RA had the evidence to back up his claims, then it shouldn't have been too costly for him to provide this to the ASA, and if he didn't then he shouldn't be making the claims in the first place....
There are far too many adverts for all sorts of products which make claims that are not supported by the evidence. We have proved over the last 20 years that caveat emptor doesn't work, hence all of the scandals in financial services, with customers who do have the sense to look after themselves having to compensate customers who don't. The solution is to make sure that advertisements are truthful and reasonable, in every field of commerce, and then you can sit back and leave it up to the consumer to make an informed decision.
I agree that hifi isn't in the same league as health products or even financial services, but the system is there to protect everyone and I don't think it's very polite for the administrator of a hifi forum to tell members to "get a life" when they make a perfectly legitimate complaint about what they felt was misleading advertising!
Lawrence
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 13:38
Lol - Just read a little of the extract from her book. Carlos Castenada was doing this schtick fifty years ago, the difference seems to be he was good at it.
We have them queueing up on our local Google Group to meet her:scratch:. I guess there must be a lot of people who don't like their reality. If more accepted life as it really is, they might get on and enjoy it a bit more and make the most of it instead of always searching for something 'else'
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 13:43
Lol - Just read a little of the extract from her book.
Yikes, I hadn't read that bit - even more demented than I thought.
I think perhaps that I won't go and investigate after all.
kininigin
13-04-2014, 17:50
We have them queueing up on our local Google Group to meet her:scratch:. I guess there must be a lot of people who don't like their reality. If more accepted life as it really is, they might get on and enjoy it a bit more and make the most of it instead of always searching for something 'else'
What a patronising comment!! I had actually gave you a bit of respect re: your earliar comments! But clearly we see differently on these matters,so i will respectively bow out on any further comments re: these type of subjects! Enyoy YOUR reallity as YOU see it! I will say no more on the matter.You can obviously reply but i will say no more! Enjoy your evening sir.
To quote Adam from Mythbusters (and James' signature); "I reject your reality and substitute my own..." ;) (This is not aimed at anyone in particular incidentally, just a reaction to the thread as a whole)
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 18:51
To quote Adam from Mythbusters (and James' signature); "I reject your reality and substitute my own..." ;) (This is not aimed at anyone in particular incidentally, just a reaction to the thread as a whole)
I didn't know what that was so looked at Wiki (I don't have a TV) Seems like fun but they do use the scientific method to test myths etc.
I had no great wish to appear patronising, I should have realised from our friend's signature that it was likely he had a rather different outlook than I do. However, its probably best that I stay on the safe side of such threads in future as it appears there is a certain sensitivity around.
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
You have every right to your opinion, and I have every right to know that you're wrong ;)
I didn't know what that was so looked at Wiki (I don't have a TV) Seems like fun but they do use the scientific method to test myths etc.
I had no great wish to appear patronising, I should have realised from our friend's signature that it was likely he had a rather different outlook than I do. However, its probably best that I stay on the safe side of such threads in future as it appears there is a certain sensitivity around.
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
I have the cauldron out: "Eye of newt, wing of bat, twisted wires and a capacitance hat..." Dr Suess, eat yer heart out...:D
The Barbarian
13-04-2014, 19:01
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
The reason i sold all mine & upgraded to standard kettle leads.
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
No, even more dangerous....
I'm no great fan of the 'what we see is all there is' approach it is a bit blinkered and slightly arrogant I think. We are only a poxy sub-species of ape living on a rock, how can we really think we know everything? On the flip side pseudo mystical nonsense like the book you linked to is really the worse kind of crap unless it is meant to be allegorical. And I don't think she intends it to be allegorical she really does want people to believe she is in contact with higher beings. Women in particular seem to lap this stuff up. If you take something like Castenada which although presented as factual is almost certainly meant allegorically then it can be a worthwhile exercise in looking at reality from a different standpoint. And then you have the likes of Ouspensky/Gurdieff which deals with the practicalities of taking an alternative view. This is where you end up if you take a degree in Philosophy ;)
On the other hand a learned friend once said to me that whilst most Physicists he knew were agnostics the Chemists were atheists to a man.
'The truth is not stranger than we think. It is stranger than we can imagine'
I think that was Einstein. :)
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 19:11
You have every right to your opinion, and I have every right to know that you're wrong ;)
:lol:
Gordon Steadman
13-04-2014, 19:14
No, even more dangerous....
I'm no great fan of the 'what we see is all there is' approach it is a bit blinkered and slightly arrogant I think. We are only a poxy sub-species of ape living on a rock, how can we really think we know everything? On the flip side pseudo mystical nonsense like the book you linked to is really the worse kind of crap unless it is meant to be allegorical. And I don't think she intends it to be allegorical she really does want people to believe she is in contact with higher beings. Women in particular seem to lap this stuff up. If you take something like Castenada which although presented as factual is almost certainly meant allegorically then it can be a worthwhile exercise in looking at reality from a different standpoint. And then you have the likes of Ouspensky/Gurdieff which deals with the practicalities of taking an alternative view. This is where you end up if you take a degree in Philosophy ;)
On the other hand a learned friend once said to me that whilst most Physicists he knew were agnostics the Chemists were atheists to a man.
'The truth is not stranger than we think. It is stranger than we can imagine'
I think that was Einstein. :)
I can't understand the 'chemist' bit. Every time I took some chemicals when I was younger I seemed to delve into all sorts of alternative realities.
PaulStewart
13-04-2014, 19:38
But the "red top" newspapers (Daily Mirror, Mail, Express etc) do that all the time -- every couple of months they come up with banner headlines about the latest 'cure for cancer' or whatever. Knowingly misleading and totally irresponsible, and done only to boost circulation. A complete and utter disgrace, imho.
And they get away with it.
And then someone comes along to take the trouble to complain about a hifi ad from a long established company with probably thousands of loyal and satisfied customers. :rolleyes:
Do some charity work if you've got time to spare. :thumbsup:
Just a quick point here Jerry the Express (which I'm picture editing tonight) is not a red top, they're the Star, Mirror and Sun and thr Record in Scotland. On your point about being knowingly misleading about medical reporting, that is to put it mildly cobblers. The week before last I went to City Hall to photograph two of my Express colleagues getting an award on behalf of the paper from the charity Young Epilepsy for campaigning and educating the the public a few months ago, the editor Hugh Whittow went to 10 Downing Street where he was presented with an award by Diabetes UK for the same thing. We get these awards for quality medical reporting, not making it up
Rant over
Just a quick point here Jerry the Express (which I'm picture editing tonight) is not a red top, they're the Star, Mirror and Sun and thr Record in Scotland. On your point about being knowingly misleading about medical reporting, that is to put it mildly cobblers. The week before last I went to City Hall to photograph two of my Express colleagues getting an award on behalf of the paper from the charity Young Epilepsy for campaigning and educating the the public a few months ago, the editor Hugh Whittow went to 10 Downing Street where he was presented with an award by Diabetes UK for the same thing. We get these awards for quality medical reporting, not making it up
Rant over
To be fair, the Express majors on panic weather reporting and endless Madelaine McCann speculation rather than health scares, but it's about as serious a newspaper as The Beano.
PaulStewart
13-04-2014, 21:32
To be fair, the Express majors on panic weather reporting and endless Madelaine McCann speculation rather than health scares, but it's about as serious a newspaper as The Beano.
Without wanting to go waaay off topic here, when we warned about the recent floods and bad weather we were of course wrong...... Oh! No! Shock Horror, we were in fact right :) The stuff we campaign about we get right on the whole I mean things like the Bomber Command Memorial, ending death duty/inheritance tax for all but the mega wealthy, passports for Gurkhas who have served the UK and stopping the EU totally screwing us As it goeas readers surveys showed they liked the Maddy coverage and the weather stories or we would not do them.
Without wanting to go waaay off topic here, when we warned about the recent floods and bad weather we were of course wrong...... Oh! No! Shock Horror, we were in fact right :)
Whereas the blizzards and sub-Arctic weather conditions predicted for last winter failed to materialise.
As it goeas readers surveys showed they liked the Maddy coverage and the weather stories or we would not do them.
To paraphrase H L Mencken: 'No-one ever went broke by understimating the intelligence of Express readers'.
Ok guys, can you please take your newspaper disagreements elsewhere. Let's get back on topic please.
To be fair, the Express majors on panic weather reporting and endless Madelaine McCann speculation rather than health scares, but it's about as serious a newspaper as The Beano.
Would be nice if they had some balls over the MM case,this goes for other papers to.
Ok guys, can you please take your newspaper disagreements elsewhere. Let's get back on topic please.
This is the famous thread drift for which AoS is renowned! And surely 'mains cables make a difference/no they don't' is the very definition of a circular argument?
Newspaper conversation taken here (thanks, Macca): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31926-Newspapers-Are-any-of-them-worth-Tuppence
kininigin
14-04-2014, 09:45
I didn't know what that was so looked at Wiki (I don't have a TV) Seems like fun but they do use the scientific method to test myths etc.
I had no great wish to appear patronising, I should have realised from our friend's signature that it was likely he had a rather different outlook than I do. However, its probably best that I stay on the safe side of such threads in future as it appears there is a certain sensitivity around.
I still think the whole mains cable thing is a load of old hooey:ner:.... safe enough?
Didn't mean to come across as sensitive! I'm really not at all.I was just a little drunk and your comments irked me at the time! I really don't care either way and normally don't reply to comments like that! No need to stay on the safe side as far as i'm concerned
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