View Full Version : Complete BS? Or the tweak of the decade?
I had the opportunity to experience a "tweak" first hand yesterday... The reason for me and a friend visiting another pal was that his Kuzma needed some tender loving care, and re-alignment of cart and such. After the Kuzma had gotten its fair share of attention, and to good effect i might add!, we were presented with the effects of a kit small "thingies" called High Frequency transducers, HFT's.
These are made by Synergistic Research and along with a couple of other tweaks, these have stirred some emotions in the world of audio lately.
Let me first say that i am basically very sceptical to these kind of tweaks, and more likely to be affected by nocebo, than being gullable.
And i have not read one word about these HFT's or what they're supposed to do, beforehand. All references were researched after the actual listening.
Anyhoots, my pal suggested we listen to a track for comparison before/after. At this time we didnt know what he was up to, so we chose a well recorded track with a swedish singstress, Anna-Lotta Larsson. Sounded nice on the hosts kit, comprised of McIntosh MCD301 and MA7000 combined with Verity Audio Parsifal Encore speakers. These are cabled together using some pretty expensive MIT Cables and the whole thing sounds really nice, even if the room is a little lively i some parts of the frequency spectrum and may also cause some resonance in the bass at times.
So, whats the tweak then? These HFT's are very small "room treatment" items, about the size of a very small coin, but deeper. Looking at them closely the resemble miniature horn's, and they're attached to the wall using a very small piece of blu-tac, about 3mm in diameter.
In a Level 1 kit there are five of these little thingies, and they are placed on the front wall, about a foot outside each speaker, at the same height as the tweeters. The next two are placed directly above the first two, about two feet higher. Finally the last one is placed at the same level as the first pair, but between the speakers.
The three of us were unified in our opinion that these shouldn't affect the sound in any significant way. You may call this expectation nocebo, the expectation of no difference, or even worsening the musical experience.
Unfortunately this is not what we heard... The effect was not subtle, much more obvious than you'd think! Of course, don't take my word for it, but try these for yourself. Most dealers offer a try-before-you-buy service and considering their heft, they are quite pricey, ca 300$.
But in the grand scheme of things, there are few cables or other kit that offer the same kind of improvement anywhere near these prices...
The soundscape was very much cleaned up, all of the imaging became very much clearer and most strange of all, the bass became drier and with more structure all while maintaining depth.
So then, how the f*ck is this possible? By blu-tac-ing five little "bugs" on the front wall? And still, we were all sceptical about any effect...
Any theories to what this is all about? Too much drugs? To little? I admit, we were all sober, disregarding the coffe and tap water...
If indeed they are on a try before you scheme there is nothing to lose l would have thought.
I had the opportunity to experience a "tweak" first hand
So then, how the f*ck is this possible? By blu-tac-ing five little "bugs" on the front wall? And still, we were all sceptical about any effect...
Any theories to what this is all about? Too much drugs? To little? I admit, we were all sober, disregarding the coffe and tap water...
Did you try different amounts of Blu Tac to see if that made any difference?
It sounds fantastic and if you lived round the corner from me I would love to share the experience. Perhaps get some more people in and see how they react.
A mere £180
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Synergistic-Research-HFT-High-Frequency-Transducer-PRODUCT-OF-THE-YEAR-2013-/151267956624?pt=US_Acoustical_Treatments&hash=item233845d790
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 13:22
The effect was not subtle, much more obvious than you'd think! ...
The soundscape was very much cleaned up, all of the imaging became very much clearer and most strange of all, the bass became drier and with more structure all while maintaining depth.
So then, how the f*ck is this possible? By blu-tac-ing five little "bugs" on the front wall? And still, we were all sceptical about any effect...
Any theories to what this is all about? Too much drugs? To little? I admit, we were all sober, disregarding the coffe and tap water...
Not sure why this might be classified as BS given your collective experience. Just because it doesn't appear to make sense but yet appears to work simply suggests science is not able to explain everything.
Not sure why this might be classified as BS given your collective experience. Just because it doesn't appear to make sense but yet appears to work simply suggests science is not able to explain everything.
People love to believe that sort of thing. But tis BS. It's only air molecules moving around FFS. It isn't rocket science. There is NO magic in it.
As you might have guessed, I'm in the complete BS camp.:)
I know, I wasn't there, LOL.
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 13:44
Actually the OP was totally sceptical to begin with, so he surely doesn't fall into the 'people love to believe that sort of thing' camp. I wouldn't dare comment on the validity of the product or experience, not having been there and not having tried the items.
In the realm of the psychologists, I think.
Gordon Steadman
07-04-2014, 13:59
Sounds like another Belt special to me but then, like everybody here but you, I wasn't in the room.
Haselsh1
07-04-2014, 14:10
A few friends and myself once tried the PWB Graphite foils cut into little delta shapes and stuck on the inside of CD's. The difference for those in the room was blatantly obvious but still the world ridiculed. Some you will never win.
In the realm of the psychologists, I think.
I'm not disputing that this might affect our perception of the effects...
What bothers me most is the fact that i see meself as a reasonably intelligent bloke, able to comprehend the most basic physical rules we abide to, like gravity, electricity and materials properties etc. (Have a university degree in low voltage electronics and computing, however old)
How can such a small item affect bass, which normally requires wardrobe sized boxes to affect?
Perhaps its more to do with how we percieve audio through our hearing, than how a piece of kit "sounds"...
I'm not sure you follow me here, but i believe audio output can be reasonably correctly measured. But our interpretation of the information that our ears send to the brain is not as easily measured...
Anyways, if you get the chance, give these little thingies a try... Sceptic or not, i still believe most of us here would be able to tell a difference! ;)
I'm not disputing that this might affect our perception of the effects...
What bothers me most is the fact that i see meself as a reasonably intelligent bloke, able to comprehend the most basic physical rules we abide to, like gravity, electricity and materials properties etc. (Have a university degree in low voltage electronics and computing, however old)
How can such a small item affect bass, which normally requires wardrobe sized boxes to affect?
Perhaps its more to do with how we percieve audio through our hearing, than how a piece of kit "sounds"...
I'm not sure you follow me here, but i believe audio output can be reasonably correctly measured. But our interpretation of the information that our ears send to the brain is not as easily measured...
Anyways, if you get the chance, give these little thingies a try... Sceptic or not, i still believe most of us here would be able to tell a difference! ;)
It can't, period. That's a stone cold fact.
There's nothing in the known universe that can otherwise explain it except listening bias. You knew they were being placed; there was no blind test, however un-statistical it may have been anyway; therefore the only likely and probable explanation can be expectation bias.
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 14:25
It was also a stone cold fact that cables made no difference...
I agree Paul, however, the effects of placebos *are* very real, whether they have any basis in science or not. You have only got to look to the drug industry where tablets of the 'right' colour containing nothing more than corn flour have shown positive results in trials.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03wcchn
For the test subject the effects are very real.
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 14:34
But the test subject (OP) did not believe the product would work, nor was he expecting it to, so why would he still hear a difference?
I agree Paul, however, the effects of placebos *are* very real, whether they have any basis in science or not. You have only got to look to the drug industry where tablets of the 'right' colour containing nothing more than corn flour have shown positive results in trials.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03wcchn
For the test subject the effects are very real.
I remain healthily sceptical that something which no-one seems to understand (in terms of what it is or what it does) that small can have any impact whatsoever on the bass notes that speakers produce in a room. I'm not discounting what you may or may not have heard Neal. The products in question are not part of the signal path, they're not modifying speaker response, they are stuck on walls and are tiny. Sorry to appear to be so bluntly sceptical, but unless there is some sort of rational description of what these are meant to do and how they work from the seller, then I can't see (unless the laws of physics have been altered in some parallel universe) how these can have any effect on bass frequencies whatsoever. People can bang on about how if someone hears a difference, then it mist be true all they want but 1) that isn't evidence, and 2) I am not discounting what someone is hearing, just what might or might not be responsible. I'll now bow gracefully out ;).
I remain healthily sceptical that something which no-one seems to understand (in terms of what it is or what it does) that small can have any impact whatsoever on the bass notes that speakers produce in a room. I'm not discounting what you may or may not have heard Neal. The products in question are not part of the signal path, they're not modifying speaker response, they are stuck on walls and are tiny. Sorry to appear to be so bluntly sceptical, but unless there is some sort of rational description of what these are meant to do and how they work from the seller, then I can't see (unless the laws of physics have been altered in some parallel universe) how these can have any effect on bass frequencies whatsoever. People can bang on about how if someone hears a difference, then it mist be true all they want but 1) that isn't evidence, and 2) I am not discounting what someone is hearing, just what might or might not be responsible. I'll now bow gracefully out ;).
Paul, I didn't hear anything, I wasn't there! ;)
I was highlighting that placebos can have an effect that for the test subjects are very real indeed even if they where not expecting anything especially as the test was not performed blind.
Hmmm, from reading Mike's post any expectation bias is more likely to have veered towards the negative for both him and his mate, more than that I wouldn't like to say as I wasn't there... Weird! :eyebrows:
I'm not disputing that this might affect our perception of the effects...
What bothers me most is the fact that i see meself as a reasonably intelligent bloke, able to comprehend the most basic physical rules we abide to, like gravity, electricity and materials properties etc. (Have a university degree in low voltage electronics and computing, however old)
How can such a small item affect bass, which normally requires wardrobe sized boxes to affect?
Perhaps its more to do with how we percieve audio through our hearing, than how a piece of kit "sounds"...
I'm not sure you follow me here, but i believe audio output can be reasonably correctly measured. But our interpretation of the information that our ears send to the brain is not as easily measured...
Anyways, if you get the chance, give these little thingies a try... Sceptic or not, i still believe most of us here would be able to tell a difference! ;)
That is the one thing I shall not do. No offence to your beliefs. But join a group of people who I do not know and they can hear a difference I am interested in. The stranger in the room effect or conversely group thinking.
Does the manufacturer offer an explanation of how they work? usually with these thing it is either
a) semi-mystical horse shit
b) secret as it is 'patent pending'
c) something they dscovered whilst researching something else totally unconnected and so still unexplained.
Does the manufacturer offer an explanation of how they work? usually with these thing it is either
a) semi-mystical horse shit
b) secret as it is 'patent pending'
c) something they dscovered whilst researching something else totally unconnected and so still unexplained.
This may throw some light http://www.audiostream.com/content/synergistic-research-high-frequency-transducer-and-frequency-equalizer
I couldn't be bothered to read all of it other than these HFR are part of a team not stand alone wonders.
A few friends and myself once tried the PWB Graphite foils cut into little delta shapes and stuck on the inside of CD's. The difference for those in the room was blatantly obvious but still the world ridiculed. Some you will never win.
Do you continue to use them?
For those still interested in these items this proved interesting http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1381868965 people who have tried.........
Spectral Morn
07-04-2014, 18:13
Not heard those but I have heard these, from the same company.......
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7eSavSAKxoDl4pxlAOJ2PRGpZSgHvY UbB1AY855IW5nTIFjqRww
I was hostile and quite incredulous but they made a difference and this was done blind i.e my eyes were closed and I was not told when and where they were being moved, removed etc. They made a very audible difference/improvement to the sound in the room.
Just because we can't explain a thing, or it doesn't fit our world view does not mean it doesn't work. Suck it and see and then offer an opinion because with all due respect to those poo pooing, none of you have heard these products so are showing your own form of bias.
Regards Neil
Not heard those but I have heard these, from the same company.......
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7eSavSAKxoDl4pxlAOJ2PRGpZSgHvY UbB1AY855IW5nTIFjqRww
I was hostile and quite incredulous but they made a difference and this was done blind i.e my eyes were closed and I was not told when and where they were being moved, removed etc. They made a very audible difference/improvement to the sound in the room.
Just because we can't explain a thing, or it doesn't fit our world view does not mean it doesn't work. Suck it and see and then offer an opinion because with all due respect to those poo pooing, none of you have heard these products so are showing your own form of bias.
Regards Neil
Do they make any difference if you listen with just headphones?
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 18:43
Just because we can't explain a thing, or it doesn't fit our world view does not mean it doesn't work. Suck it and see and then offer an opinion because with all due respect to those poo pooing, none of you have heard these products so are showing your own form of bias.
Indeed. Even measurement-oriented engineering types like Stereophile editor JA has acknowledged the effect of this even though he is unable to explain why or how they might work.
A number of my customers asked me about these many months ago and I could not be bothered with them
as have enough to be going on with, if they are akin to the SR20 fuses this company also make I would say
its likely the OP is 100% correct (well he is right if he hear it himself surely) , the fuses have a money back
guarantee from the manufacturers themselves, un-heard of I would say, out of well over 300+ fuses sold so
far 1 person has sent them back (well actually not yet as he only told me today)
Don't dismiss any tweaks until you have tried them yourself is my opinion. :)
Not heard those but I have heard these, from the same company.......
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7eSavSAKxoDl4pxlAOJ2PRGpZSgHvY UbB1AY855IW5nTIFjqRww
I was hostile and quite incredulous but they made a difference and this was done blind i.e my eyes were closed and I was not told when and where they were being moved, removed etc. They made a very audible difference/improvement to the sound in the room.
Just because we can't explain a thing, or it doesn't fit our world view does not mean it doesn't work. Suck it and see and then offer an opinion because with all due respect to those poo pooing, none of you have heard these products so are showing your own form of bias.
Regards Neil
Well if I'd experienced the same I'd keep very quiet about it....:)
Well if I'd experienced the same I'd keep very quiet about it....:)
Or invite everyone I knew to hear what they can do.
Where did you buy yours from there seem to be no UK dealers (wonders why)?
walpurgis
07-04-2014, 19:51
I find wearing odd coloured socks improves system coherence no end. An orange one on the left and blue on the right seems to give best results. ;)
Gordon Steadman
07-04-2014, 20:01
I find wearing odd coloured socks improves system coherence no end. An orange one on the left and blue on the right seems to give best results. ;)
This just doesn't tie in with my experience at all, you have to hang one of the socks on the wall. This might be hedging the bets though - a sort of foot in either camp.
This just doesn't tie in with my experience at all, you have to hang one of the socks on the wall. This might be hedging the bets though - a sort of foot in either camp.
Thread drift into the usual mickey take :lol:
I have some on the way so let's have a session anyone?
Stocks in the UK, who wants some?:)
Thread drift into the usual mickey take :lol:
I have some on the way so let's have a session anyone?
Stocks in the UK, who wants some?:)
Congratulations I believe you are the first UK dealer. Smart move given the demand that is building. Still wondering why nobody else has sought dealership.
rubber duck
07-04-2014, 20:36
I have some on the way so let's have a session anyone?
Well, this changes things somewhat. No more speculation... Question is, will the foo fighters be up for this?
Big Vern
07-04-2014, 20:57
Hi Folks,
Try this link to a review of this product, with an explanation by the designer;-
http://www.avshowrooms.com/Synergistic_Research.html
I have to say the presenter 's style does make me chuckle, but it is entertaining and his videos quite informative...and he, too, agrees with the OP in terms of what these devices do for his system.
Will be interesting to hear Dave's opinion when some land at MCRU World HQ :)
Best Wishes,
Paul.
Congratulations I believe you are the first UK dealer. Smart move given the demand that is building. Still wondering why nobody else has sought dealership.
I have been selling Synergistic Research for many months, I did in fact get told about these but the conversation went astray as I was busy preparing for a show so dismissed them at the time!
Hi Folks,
Try this link to a review of this product, with an explanation by the designer;-
http://www.avshowrooms.com/Synergistic_Research.html
I have to say the presenter 's style does make me chuckle, but it is entertaining and his videos quite informative...and he, too, agrees with the OP in terms of what these devices do for his system.
Will be interesting to hear Dave's opinion when some land at MCRU World HQ :)
Best Wishes,
Paul.
I have just watched the two videos, and have to say in the second video the room sounded just as live-sounding regardless of how many levels of room treatment were applied. In fact it sounded awful with some of the piano notes causing me to wince, so distorted were they.
The only way that system/room could be improved would be to take two of the HFT gizmos and place one in each ear!
LOL! I agree Barry (for once! :) ) I've just listened to this through some reasonable headphones and its quite easy to note where the demos are for each treatment on the time line and jump back and forth between them...there is no difference! The clue is in his voice as well, the room is just as lively when he talks at the end as when he started!
Gentlemen, please note that the videos in no way are trying to demonstrate the effect these thingies have on the acoustics.
Just the way they are to placed and what they do, in some way at least.
Representative from Synergistic Research says, regarding a similar comment on their site;
"Michael the videos were shot using a consumer handheld video camera attached to a tripod. They were intended as a primer on how to place HFT and FEQ in a system, not as substitute for auditioning HFTs and FEQ in your system. It would be next to impossible to demonstrate the difference between a $900 system and a $10,000 system under such circumstances, let alone acoustic treatment devices on a heavily compressed YouTube feed. We hope the videos served their purpose by giving you a good idea how to set up these amazing products in your system. To make auditioning easy, both HFT and FEQ are sold with a 30-day risk-free in home audition guarantee."
Regards
Mike
Gordon Steadman
08-04-2014, 06:50
Whilst I cannot have an opinion on these particular objects, in fifty years of listening to music in the home, I have seen so many 'amazing','life changing', astounding' widgets that I have lost count. All have been the flavour of the month for a bit and then faded into obscurity as it was realised that the hype was a load of bull.
I would be astonished indeed, if this one was any different.
However as I have no interest in doing anything other than listening to music - as opposed the the equipment - I will remain in happy ignorance. Good luck to any of you who consider spending this sort of sum on some small turned aluminium stock that must cost at least £5 to produce.
It could just be the bluetack I suppose?
...
have been the flavour of the month for a bit and then faded into obscurity...
This is an interesting point, i have tried to recap what "tweaks" i have tried during the years, and which, if any have stayed?
One tweak that made huge difference in my past was the green pen to paint the edge and center suppression of a CD.
I know a lot of you will dismiss this as utter BS, but on my CD Player at the time it made a considerable difference. When i changed the CD into something "better" it didn't have the profound effect anymore so therefore it didn't get any more use. And nowadays i dont play CD's at all, but who knows, it might just help the ripper to perform better to?
I do belive "better cables" to be considered "tweaks" in some 20-25 years ago? How many of you use the std issue liquorishe strings/freebies/bell wire today?
Is room treatment a tweak? Not today, but if you asked anyone 30 years ago i'm sure they would raise eyebrows if you mentioned diffusors or absorbers?
So, our collective has changed, and so would the tweaks as their purpose must change along with what the "average hifinut Joe" has in his kit/room...
Besides, the HFT's are not "turned aluminium stock", the horn shaped insert is a sort of membrane.. Im not sure they cost more than £5 to produce though :lol:
Feels like i'm defending their purpose here, but belive me, i'm just as much a sceptic as the next guy. :) I just cant explain how they seem to make more difference than changing cables/adding diffusors/optimizing speaker placement. And let me say this much, i challenge you to find a speaker cable or interconnect at anywhere near this cost that makes music this much better!
Gordon, dont you think that good sound quality enables you to enjoy music more? Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this thread! ;)
All the best
/Mike
Gordon Steadman
08-04-2014, 07:35
Gordon, dont you think that good sound quality enables you to enjoy music more? Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this thread! ;)
All the best
/Mike
Yes of course I agree about good sound quality. I am also one of those boring people who believes that the laws of physics applies and I like to understand how stuff works. Faith and belief are not part of my mind set.
Yes I choose my equipment after listening carefully so thats subjective obviously. However, having been through the Belt era and the green felt pen stuff and finding that, like most things, it changed with my mood or the wind direction, I prefer just to relax and listen to the music.
There is no point on criticising people who believe all this stuff, humans believe all sorts of things that can't be proved. However, there is always room for some checks and balances and a bit of banter never does any harm.
This is an interesting point, i have tried to recap what "tweaks" i have tried during the years, and which, if any have stayed?
One tweak that made huge difference in my past was the green pen to paint the edge and center suppression of a CD.
I know a lot of you will dismiss this as utter BS, but on my CD Player at the time it made a considerable difference. When i changed the CD into something "better" it didn't have the profound effect anymore so therefore it didn't get any more use. And nowadays i dont play CD's at all, but who knows, it might just help the ripper to perform better to?
I do belive "better cables" to be considered "tweaks" in some 20-25 years ago? How many of you use the std issue liquorishe strings/freebies/bell wire today?
Is room treatment a tweak? Not today, but if you asked anyone 30 years ago i'm sure they would raise eyebrows if you mentioned diffusors or absorbers?
So, our collective has changed, and so would the tweaks as their purpose must change along with what the "average hifinut Joe" has in his kit/room...
Besides, the HFT's are not "turned aluminium stock", the horn shaped insert is a sort of membrane.. Im not sure they cost more than £5 to produce though :lol:
Feels like i'm defending their purpose here, but belive me, i'm just as much a sceptic as the next guy. :) I just cant explain how they seem to make more difference than changing cables/adding diffusors/optimizing speaker placement. And let me say this much, i challenge you to find a speaker cable or interconnect at anywhere near this cost that makes music this much better!
Gordon, dont you think that good sound quality enables you to enjoy music more? Of course you do, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this thread! ;)
All the best
/Mike
Not true at all. 30 years ago the SCIENCE behind room treatment was well known and documented. Why do you think recording studios used sound treatment not to mention live venues? Joe average hifi buff didn't because 1) they were not available for the domestic market and 2) Only a small number of people with a modest system understood what was involved in the science. Typically 30 or 40 years ago, if you wanted room treatment, you made it.
Ditto cables. We don't use the freebee high capacitance strings with our kit because far better quality is available and the LCR issues are well enough understood as are the benefits of low impedance grounding and decent screening and plugs. There's no magic involved.
As to our collective changing...well there's no doubt that some have access to more information and more education but equally there's more myth and more disinformation too. But one thing is for certain; little machined aluminium discs ("patent pending") weren't able to defy the laws of physics back then, nor are they able to today, but it's a free world so good luck to anyone spending a small fortune on them. Frankly you might be better off buying a better cartridge, or more appropriately, if your room has issues, buy some DSP correction; it works and we understand why it works. That or some acoustic treatment.
Well Alpha
Thanks for making us aware of your experience. MCRU has some coming in so for those who have had their curiosity roused by the thread they can play to their hearts content.
One point someone trying these may wish to consider. The effect of BlueTac on paper surfaces. I believe in time it leaks a goo which will stain the paper. Flock wall paper is certainly out.
Looking forward to hearing all the enthusiasm that those who trial them experience. I have no personal curiosity in the objects just people who find they make a difference.
I tried a green disk/matt that sits on top of a CD and still use it. I don't recall it making the slightest difference to sound. I do leave it in the CD Player in the hope it does keep dust off the lens though.
Well Alpha
Thanks for making us aware of your experience. MCRU has some coming in so for those who have had their curiosity roused by the thread they can play to their hearts content.
One point someone trying these may wish to consider. The effect of BlueTac on paper surfaces. I believe in time it leaks a goo which will stain the paper. Flock wall paper is certainly out.
Looking forward to hearing all the enthusiasm that those who trial them experience. I have no personal curiosity in the objects just people who find they make a difference.
I tried a green disk/matt that sits on top of a CD and still use it. I don't recall it making the slightest difference to sound. I do leave it in the CD Player in the hope it does keep dust off the lens though.
The green mat works wonders for cd playback Alan if it is the marigo labs one, if not then I apologize.
The SR HFT transducers are £200 for a set of 5, as with all things tweakery based the proof of the pudding is in the listening, I always say don't dismiss anything without hearing it first!
Gordon Steadman
08-04-2014, 08:50
The green mat works wonders for cd playback
Its this sort of statement that I find amusing. 'works wonders', night and day'..... all that sort of stuff. No it doesn't. It makes subtle changes. Some will be improvements, some won't.
As I have said before, with all these cumulative improvements, its a wonder it doesn't sound much better than the real thing:scratch:
Its this sort of statement that I find amusing. 'works wonders', night and day'..... all that sort of stuff. No it doesn't. It makes subtle changes. Some will be improvements, some won't.
As I have said before, with all these cumulative improvements, its a wonder it doesn't sound much better than the real thing:scratch:
Gordon, most of the things I post are actual punters telling me, it works wonders was a customer from Aberdeen, no point in me stating that as no one would believe me!
This thread has made it onto SR's facebook page, someone is famous! :)
Gordon Steadman
08-04-2014, 10:07
no point in me stating that as no one would believe me!
Why's that then??:eyebrows:
Spectral Morn
08-04-2014, 10:21
Or invite everyone I knew to hear what they can do.
Where did you buy yours from there seem to be no UK dealers (wonders why)?
They were being demoed at the Heathrow Chester show a few years ago by ABC Audio.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
08-04-2014, 10:28
Well if I'd experienced the same I'd keep very quiet about it....:)
I heard what I heard, it was obvious, repeatable and frankly left me perplexed, because even in my open minded world this stunned me. How could these small cups do what they did. Frankly I struggle even today to get my head round it and I can offer no explanation of any kind as to how. However they did.
I read about these on 6 Moons originally, though they were under Franck Chang's name and frankly it read like witchcraft and I was very hostile to the entire possibility but proof in the pudding is the tasting. I had a listen, expecting nothing to happen and I was wrong it did.
Go figure, because I can't.
The Six Moons item I read http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem/resonators.html and the follow up http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators.html
http://www.francktchang.com/
Regards Neil
The green mat works wonders for cd playback Alan if it is the marigo labs one, if not then I apologize.
The SR HFT transducers are £200 for a set of 5, as with all things tweakery based the proof of the pudding is in the listening, I always say don't dismiss anything without hearing it first!
No apology necessary it is an exchange of views.
You say you quote others in a later post but you do not sell said green discs ATM. If I remember correctly it was an obscenely large amount for a Marigo disk £180 maybe. So whatever wonders it may or may not offer my system it will not be evaluated or entertained.
£180/200 buys a lot of music be it vinyl, CD or HR downloads.
Same for HFTs. A person hooked on them could spend a grand, that is 5 stages of treatment 200 a shot as SR promote. Then there is the other device that partners it.
From a business point of view I hope it is successful. From the punters point of view I hope it gives them VFM.
Its this sort of statement that I find amusing. 'works wonders', night and day'..... all that sort of stuff. No it doesn't. It makes subtle changes. Some will be improvements, some won't.
As I have said before, with all these cumulative improvements, its a wonder it doesn't sound much better than the real thing:scratch:
:lol:
Very valid points Gordon! We need to keep things in a reasonable perspective when discussing audio "improvements"!
Regards Mike
No apology necessary it is an exchange of views.
You say you quote others in a later post but you do not sell said green discs ATM. If I remember correctly it was an obscenely large amount for a Marigo disk £180 maybe. So whatever wonders it may or may not offer my system it will not be evaluated or entertained.
£180/200 buys a lot of music be it vinyl, CD or HR downloads.
Same for HFTs. A person hooked on them could spend a grand, that is 5 stages of treatment 200 a shot as SR promote. Then there is the other device that partners it.
From a business point of view I hope it is successful. From the punters point of view I hope it gives them VFM.
I did sell the green discs Alan but no longer (only due to having been given some from a retired dealer)
I just bought a gazebo yesterday, the £100 could have been spent on vinyl or some other bit of bling, but when I am sat out in the sun drinking stella and chilling I am happy.
Same for spending £200 on HFT's, if they work and you are sat smiling that's surely what life is all about, enjoyment? Otherwise why carry on living?
They were being demoed at the Heathrow Chester show a few years ago by ABC Audio.
Regards Neil
Thanks Neil
Just had a look at their web site http://www.abc-audio.co.uk/synegistic-research/ but it doesn't say very much with no links to anything more informative like where to buy and how much and...
Spectral Morn
08-04-2014, 11:17
Thanks Neil
Just had a look at their web site http://www.abc-audio.co.uk/synegistic-research/ but it doesn't say very much with no links to anything more informative like where to buy and how much and...
Sadly ABC Audio is no more as it once was, the owner has been ill for awhile, so only does a little selling these days, mainly MSB. He might have some Synergistic Research kit still. Best way to get hold of him is on the WAM where he advertises still as HiFi Addict.
Regards Neil
Sadly ABC Audio is no more as it once was, the owner has been ill for awhile, so only does a little selling these days, mainly MSB. He might have some Synergistic Research kit still. Best way to get hold of him is on the WAM where he advertises still as HiFi Addict.
Regards Neil
Ah ha Wam for ever. Illness is a right b*st*rd, tell me about it. So MCRU is/are have the field to themselves.
I'm giving my wall paper priority.
This may throw some light http://www.audiostream.com/content/synergistic-research-high-frequency-transducer-and-frequency-equalizer
I couldn't be bothered to read all of it other than these HFR are part of a team not stand alone wonders.
I've read that before, there is no explanation of how they work, however in the comments section below is this:
HFTs are high frequency resonators that operate outside the limits of human hearing to clean up high frequency harmonics. This in turn reduces resonant harmonic distortion in frequencies that are audible to human beings
So the music casues them to resonate at VHF levels, this in turn effects frequencies lower down that we can actually hear in a beneficial way.
So there is an explanation for how they work, I don't know enough about the science of acoustics to say whether this is a credible explanation or not. Certianly if we accept that passive devices like bass traps and absorbant panels affect the sound, and no-one would deny that, then there is no reason prima face that small resonating devices cannot also affect the sound.
I would give them a try if it wasn't for the price which is a rip off since there is nothign special in the construction so you could get them made up in China for a few pence each if you ordered a container load (which they probabaly did). If it was £20 for 5 I would have a go.
But the test subject (OP) did not believe the product would work, nor was he expecting it to, so why would he still hear a difference?
That's not true.. They were being deliberately placed on the walls in order to effect the sound, they were advertised as being able to effect the sound, they cost a lot of money for what they were.
There are many people who suffer from such things as phobias of some very odd things, yet are fully able to reason logically to themselves and others that these things are absolutely NOT scary in any way whatsoever. And yet they continue to panic and have fear of those things..
Even people who suspect they are taking a placebo are effected by the placebo.
The only way these could not have a psychological influence is for him to be unaware that they were there and also unaware when they were removed but yet noticed the difference and searched around after the fact for a reason for the change of sound..
Certianly if we accept that passive devices like bass traps and absorbant panels affect the sound, and no-one would deny that, then there is no reason prima face that small resonating devices cannot also affect the sound.
Hmm.. that sounds like we are simply religious, passive observers in the world and just accept things that are thrown at us.
I don't just accept that bass traps and sound absorbers work..
I acknowedge the theory behind them and trust enough that they do work when designed properly because of the people behind saying that they do and the physics behind them, the number of different sources of the theory and practice etc etc. Yet I've not personally worked it out for myself nor experienced it for myself fully in detail although have been in a few before and after basically treated rooms with problems.
Ok, there's a lot of people behind religion and lots of theory and centuries of repetition of those theories, millions of books written on the subject etc and yet I don't feel I have to then accept any of it as truth because it simply doesn't make any sense nor bare any truth to reality as I experience it.. In the past, it was the best fit explaination of the world around us.
One explaination of a theory of why something might have an effect is no reason to accept something as even possibly true.
Essentially you apply theory to practice as and when you need it and go from there.. the rest is just conceptual and thought experiment.
There is certainly a difference between what people have heard and the behaviour of the pressure waves in a room.
The pressure waves in a room may not be effected one jot.. and yet people can hear definate effects. The problem is people assume hearing is a direct response to the outside world yet in reality, according to neurological research at least (which, when you follow the discovery process rather than jumping in at "facts" down the line, appear and logically follow reality as I experience it) hearing is FAR removed from the outside world and is more directly conencted to the brain and it's complexity than the outside world.
Haselsh1
08-04-2014, 14:51
Do you continue to use them?
Barry, the ones originally put in place are still in place but given the amount of money being asked for these items, no, I do not still use them.
My main gripe against products like this is the general costs. It only strengthens a sceptical view point IMHO
And if they work then the daft price only fuels the idea that it's a con looking for the highest return before people find out!
Need to get something similar lathed or 3D printed for cheap to test. Then of course the excuse if they don't is that they are not EXACTLY the same thing.
Life is short so it's best (in my view) not to bother with such uncertain things unless you're still happy even if it might be the placebo effect (if it increases real pleasure felt then plaecbo is good!) or have enough money not to worry about throwing it away.
kininigin
08-04-2014, 23:10
Perhaps its more to do with how we percieve audio through our hearing, than how a piece of kit "sounds"...
I'm not sure you follow me here, but i believe audio output can be reasonably correctly measured. But our interpretation of the information that our ears send to the brain is not as easily measured...
Anyone who has taken acid/mushrooms ect will tell you when your perception is changed,your hearing ect changes!! I remember a time i was at a mates house listening to some music,it sounded shite!! Proper tinny,distorted,no bass and just plain wrong! After partaking in some mind altering shenanigans,how did it sound AMAZING! Clear highs,no distortion and lovely deep bass! (It was music DESIGNED to sound like that,unless under the influence! What does that tell you!!) Now had what we were playing changed in anyway? No,we had changed! Our perception had changed altering what we heard!
We don't actually hear sound through the ear! You have a vibration enter the ear which is converted into an electrical signal which is then sent to the brain and decoded by the brain into sound which we hear! It's the same for ALL our senses.Alter your perception,you alter your 'reality'. Do these things alter your perception somehow? Fook knows!
Got a set this morning, won't be till tonight when I attach them to my walls,
maybe a glass of red will make them sound "right"! :)
I did sell the green discs Alan but no longer (only due to having been given some from a retired dealer)
I just bought a gazebo yesterday, the £100 could have been spent on vinyl or some other bit of bling, but when I am sat out in the sun drinking stella and chilling I am happy.
Same for spending £200 on HFT's, if they work and you are sat smiling that's surely what life is all about, enjoyment? Otherwise why carry on living?
For some reason I do not equate gazebos to HFT as you do. They are of course both a source of income to someone. The whole world belives gazebos are a great thing any human can see and experience the immediate benefits. Maybe you can find someone who has an opposing view. Anti Gazebo? As for HRTs they are somewhat different.
I think this has already been said but does not hurt to give any tweak this perspective. How many people will return home and while they were away someone had installed in their listening area these HRTs without their prior knowledge and certainly without any knowledge of their existance or what the manufacturers claim they can do.
The returned person sits down and starts to listen to their system. Almost immediately they hear a difference and start to wonder why.
When we have people who have that experience and tell us about it I will give credance to these profitable objects.
Rush2112
12-04-2014, 12:45
Well there are things that are unexplainable ! I tend to view most of these things sceptically, I remember a visit to Moorgate Acoustics many years ago to hear some Epos speakers and the salesman spending some considerable time positioning a large cushion on the wall behind the speakers before I was allowed to listen to them ! As I couldn't have a home trial and the rest if the system was very different from mine I decided not to buy them and went with the B&W Matrix 805's that my local dealer lent me for the weekend to try ! However, that said since then I have discovered there are some simply tweeks that can help improve room acoustics see:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec09/articles/beginnersacoustics.htm
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