Preamp / SUT my 2p worth

[Audio Al]

During my journey with HiFi I started with a simple setup

I had a integrated amp with a inbuilt phono stage. I never owned a line only amp never needed a separate phono stage.

Move forward several years and I was tempted by a Chinese valve amp and ordered one ( not good quality so it went back ) At that time I ordered a Project phono stage as as a result of sending back the amp never used the Project phono :doh:

Several better amps came and went all with inbuilt phono stages

Then one day I read a review of the Cambridge Audio 640p conversion carried out by Jez Arkless and had previously heard this conversion being used by Freefallrob and Radical at the 2013 WW show , Being quite keen to try one out I purchased a 640p and sent it off to Jez to have everything done , Top of the range Turbo with a switch for MM / MC :D ( in for a penny in for a pound ;) )

12004


When the Turbo arrived I could not wait to try it out , and try it out I did , result was :eek: OMG
F in L the sound quality was well it may sound cheesy " Turbo-ed " Lots more detail more gain and to my hearing it sounded epic :) , I was using this at the WW show at Scalford hall with my Techy , Quad 11's , Quad 57's etc , on the day I have quite a few favorable remarks re the sound quality :D

Enter Marco , Dude why are you not using the phono stage in the Croft 25 you are using , Me = I have a MC cart ( Shelter 5000 ) and the croft is a MM phono stage !
Marco " get a SUT and all will be revealed "

Me = :hmm::hmm::hmm: This sounds good as it is :D

Later I received a PM from Macro saying I need to view the private exhibitions as something of interest will be posted soon :scratch:

As stated later on this item appears in the adds :)
A Ortofon ST-80se SUT for £600 :eek: I leave it for a day hoping someone else would buy it to save me some money :lol: alas No one did buy it :(
So that was it Macro had lobbed out the hook baited with a SUT and reeled me in :D

The SUT arrives and after a illness I get it hooked up running the SUT through the Croft Phone stage ,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2786.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2786.jpg.html)


Result = improvement again , How can thing keep getting better :scratch::D

Comparing the Turbo with the Ortofon , The Arkless Turbo is very good value for money and a big step up in performance , The Ortofon is a step further however If I had paid the full retail price for the Ortofon I would not have been as happy , It is better but is it double the price better :hmm:

If anyone is interested in the Arkless Turbo I will be putting it up for Sale soon to recover some of the cost of the Ortofon

[AlanS]

During my journey with HiFi I started with a simple setup

I had a integrated amp with a inbuilt phono stage. I never owned a line only amp never needed a separate phono stage.

Move forward several years and I was tempted by a Chinese valve amp and ordered one ( not good quality so it went back ) At that time I ordered a Project phono stage as as a result of sending back the amp never used the Project phono :doh:

Several better amps came and went all with inbuilt phono stages

Then one day I read a review of the Cambridge Audio 640p conversion carried out by Jez Arkless and had previously heard this conversion being used by Freefallrob and Radical at the 2013 WW show , Being quite keen to try one out I purchased a 640p and sent it off to Jez to have everything done , Top of the range Turbo with a switch for MM / MC :D ( in for a penny in for a pound ;) )

12004


When the Turbo arrived I could not wait to try it out , and try it out I did , result was :eek: OMG
F in L the sound quality was well it may sound cheesy " Turbo-ed " Lots more detail more gain and to my hearing it sounded epic :) , I was using this at the WW show at Scalford hall with my Techy , Quad 11's , Quad 57's etc , on the day I have quite a few favorable remarks re the sound quality :D

Enter Marco , Dude why are you not using the phono stage in the Croft 25 you are using , Me = I have a MC cart ( Shelter 5000 ) and the croft is a MM phono stage !
Marco " get a SUT and all will be revealed "

Me = :hmm::hmm::hmm: This sounds good as it is :D

Later I received a PM from Macro saying I need to view the private exhibitions as something of interest will be posted soon :scratch:

As stated later on this item appears in the adds :)
A Ortofon ST-80se SUT for £600 :eek: I leave it for a day hoping someone else would buy it to save me some money :lol: alas No one did buy it :(
So that was it Macro had lobbed out the hook baited with a SUT and reeled me in :D

The SUT arrives and after a illness I get it hooked up running the SUT through the Croft Phone stage ,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2786.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2786.jpg.html)


Result = improvement again , How can thing keep getting better :scratch::D

Comparing the Turbo with the Ortofon , The Arkless Turbo is very good value for money and a big step up in performance , The Ortofon is a step further however If I had paid the full retail price for the Ortofon I would not have been as happy , It is better but is it double the price better :hmm:

If anyone is interested in the Arkless Turbo I will be putting it up for Sale soon to recover some of the cost of the Ortofon
Al

The last Arkless Turbo for sale had a MM/MC switch has yours? If so would you be prepared to indicate what you want for it?

I thank you.

[chris@panteg]

I've gone back to using an SUT as well, for the last four years I've been running a Trichord Diablo.

My cartridge is the AT33EV and I prefer it into the Puresound T10 going into the Marantz Pearl lite onboard phono stage, I did take my time over this I might add.

The main difference's were better dynamics and a clarity to vocals especially, obviously the Marantz phono is a good one but I'm sure I can improve on this?

I can't see myself going back to an active mc stage now but keep an open mind, but I can use the Pearl lite as pre or power amp so I have some options?

[Audio Al]

Al

The last Arkless Turbo for sale had a MM/MC switch has yours? If so would you be prepared to indicate what you want for it?

I thank you.


Yes as stated it has the MM / MC switch

£375 posted recorded delivery

[AlanS]

Yes as stated it has the MM / MC switch

£375 posted recorded delivery

Thanks al

I thought I had looked for switch but too early

[Marco]

Yo Super-daftee,


Result = improvement again , How can thing keep getting better :scratch::D

Comparing the Turbo with the Ortofon , The Arkless Turbo is very good value for money and a big step up in performance , The Ortofon is a step further however If I had paid the full retail price for the Ortofon I would not have been as happy , It is better but is it double the price better :hmm:


Excellent - glad it's worked out well for you! So how would you describe the improvement? :)

The full retail price for the ST-80SE is commensurate with what quality SUTs sell for from established high-end manufacturers, and assessed within that context and of the systems that would normally partner such devices (consider that in my system it was being used with a £2100 Ortofon arm and £1500 SPU cartridge), the cost is entirely normal, so you got a real bargain!! ;)

Your own arm and cartridge aren't exactly 'bargain basement' either, at full retail, and therefore deserve to be used with something of the quality of the ST-80SE.

The fun isn't over yet, though... Upgrade the valves in the phono stage of your Croft (and as I know what's in there now, I know how much of an improvement you've still got to come :eyebrows:), and you'll giggle like a girl! Simply fit some NOS Telefunkens, Teslas or Mullards in there and you'll be gob-smacked at just how good that phono stage will sound (in conjunction with your SUT)!! :trust:

Marco.

P.S Who's this "Macro" dude? :scratch:

[Audio Al]

P.S Who's this "Macro" dude?

Bloody spell checkers :scratch:

Sorry Micro it wont happen again , Promise ;)

[Marco]

No worries, Alice!

:D

Marco.

P.S Don't you fancy trying some tube-rolling in yer Croft?

[MikeMusic]

My ST80SE was a big step up
Really took me by surprise.
Makes me smile to think it isn't even connected to the mains !

The Whest phono stage came later and took the SQ up even higher

I was never keen on adding more boxes but these are very worth while

[Tarzan]

l have heard Al's new SUT and it sounds good!- however l was using my Gyrodec.:booty:

[fiddlemaker]

The Croft phono stage is a thing of beauty.
I have a pair of silver plate triple mica Cifte 5751s for sale if you are interested. Very nice valves indeed that sound great in the Croft, miles better than the usual JJ valves fitted. I'd still be using them if I hadn't gone and got myself addicted to Mullard CV4004s!

[Marco]

Hi John,

Yup, the CV4004s are very nice indeed, although if you want the ultimate (and have deep enough pockets), try some CV4035/M8214s, available from Tubemonger (once he gets some more stock in):

http://www.tubemonger.com/Mullard_CV4035_NOS_NIB_1961_Prem_CV4004_Whyteleafe _p/2050m.htm

Those are simply stunning, and in my experience, the best ECC83/12AX7 types available (and I've been through most of them)! Especially so, with the bakelite bases Tubemonger fit, which make for a much more secure connection.

Btw, Al should defo take up your offer for the 5751s, in order to dip his toes into the world of tube-rolling.... Al, are you listening? ;)

Marco.

[Audio Al]

Al, are you listening?

NO :lol:

Well OK yes :lol:

[Firebottle]

Right here goes, lets lob the feline into the pigeon coop.

Something I've failed to understand is why different valves do sound different.
I have no doubt that alternative valves have their own sonic signature, but I'd like to understand why.

Maybe I could come up with a circuit tweak that will make a JJ sound like a Telefunken or Mullard :scratch:
No such hope I rather guess.

If you changed the transistors in a quality Japanese amplifier from say Sanken to Toshiba, would you notice a difference?

Admittedly no valve, or transistor, is perfect. If they were there wouldn't be a different sound, would there:confused:
Thinking of what possible difference to the characteristics might impact on the sonic signature, here are my thoughts:

Linearity of the transfer characteristic. If you changed the exact operating point to choose to be on the most linear part, would this limit the sonic differences?
Is the difference down to harmonic distortion caused by (very small) signal compression/expansion?

Differences in Miller effect capacitance, thinking triodes here. I would think that with a well designed circuit any difference to the ultimate high frequency performance should be accommodated for.


ECC83 and their derivatives are not my favourite valve as I like more current flow. A bit like having a Merc with a nice V6 or V8 engine up front, rather than a mundane 4 pot lump with lesser umph in reserve.

Another thing that I wonder, with reference specifically to Croft preamps, is whether the sonic differences are more apparent in a circuit that uses feedback. All croft circuits I know uses a feedback configuration for the RIAA correction.
(I don't have the latest design circuits but doubt that this has changed)

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

It may be that higher purity materials were used in the earlier valves, which may be a partial explanation. Nick has also had the thought that age may do something to the metal inside the valves. It's interesting that it often seems to be the older valves that sound better.

[twotone]

I'm quite surprised at the comments regarding the Croft basic pre with phono amp, I had one and while I wasn't really into vinyl then I did listen to some records with the Croft and wasn't that impressed frankly.

I've had some decent phono amps I think, not expensive ones but well regarded nevertheless and I certainly wouldn't put the Croft up there with the likes of the Arkless standard and Turbo modded phono amps.

For me, as I recall, the Croft was a bit shrill and shouty with my set up, I know that valves are meant to be not tooth enamel stripping amps but that was definitely my impression of the Croft when I had it, I actually bought the Croft because of the phono section.

Another thing that confuses me is that, okay say the Croft is a decent phono amp but it's just decent or a bit better than decent IMO so how come then does these Ortofon SUTs make a 'decent' MM phono stage sound top notch, can someone explain that to me? Why not just buy a good MC phono stage instead?

Tony

[fiddlemaker]

Tony, I have no idea how good the Arkless-modified 640 is. Never heard one. But I do know that my old micro A had a much better phono stage than a standard 640. I mean so much better that you could tell almost as soon as the needle hit the groove. And the current Croft phono stage is much better than that.
I don't think I'm a total Croft fanboy. I wasn't terribly keen on the series 5 power amp I used to have, and I don't think I'd rush into a burning building to save my current 7R. But I feel the same about my Croft pre-amp as Charlton Heston feels about his rifle.
Be a boring old world if we all had the same tastes though:).

[twotone]

Tony, I have no idea how good the Arkless-modified 640 is. Never heard one. But I do know that my old micro A had a much better phono stage than a standard 640. I mean so much better that you could tell almost as soon as the needle hit the groove. And the current Croft phono stage is much better than that.
I don't think I'm a total Croft fanboy. I wasn't terribly keen on the series 5 power amp I used to have, and I don't think I'd rush into a burning building to save my current 7R. But I feel the same about my Croft pre-amp as Charlton Heston feels about his rifle.
Be a boring old world if we all had the same tastes though:).

Thanks John, btw I'm talking about the Croft Basic Pre not the Croft RIAA Phono amp, pretty sure that Al has the Croft Basic pre.

Don't get me wrong I thought the phono section in the Croft pre was okay but certainly not as it's been described in this thread by some of the guys.

BTW, why not use the Ortofon SUT with the Arkless Turbo set to MM, wouldn't that make the Arkless an 'even better' amp than it is on it's own surely, no?

[fiddlemaker]

If I could be excused for hijacking the thread slightly I would like to ask for opinions on the following (related) question.
As mentioned above, I have a Croft Micro A pre-amp, modded to current 25R spec. Again, as above, this has a MM-only phono stage, and I won't repeat how wonderful I think this is (oops I just did....).

Here's me question (also related to another thread I started on cartridge re-tipping).

I have a high output MC (Benz Micro ACE) approaching the time when it will need a new stylus/exchange cartridge.

Am I better off going for a trade-in high output cartridge (probably Benz wood), or low output (same cartridge) plus SUT (bearing in mind that my max SUT budget would be around £300).? Would the low output + SUT sound better than the high output?

Or forget MC altogether and go for a nice MM/MI? I do find the high output Benz sounds good, I have to say.

Cheers
John

[belloire]

i'd say a benz wood sl and sut personally, having heard an ace sl and wood sl in the same system, there wasn't a huge difference in the sound, but it's definately better.

however, the only person that can say wether ho, lo/sut or mm is better is you, and it's not an easy or cheap thing to test unless you know somebody who has all 3 to listen to?

i have a 'marthas SUT' using all silver wired 1:10 partridge trannys (not the more common, and not as good 1:6...) but still prefer the active, valve based, step up in my Audio Innovations S200, can't quite put my finger on why though. it's not a specific thing, more an overall thing, if that makes sense...

[twotone]

If I could be excused for hijacking the thread slightly I would like to ask for opinions on the following (related) question.
As mentioned above, I have a Croft Micro A pre-amp, modded to current 25R spec. Again, as above, this has a MM-only phono stage, and I won't repeat how wonderful I think this is (oops I just did....).

Here's me question (also related to another thread I started on cartridge re-tipping).

I have a high output MC (Benz Micro ACE) approaching the time when it will need a new stylus/exchange cartridge.

Am I better off going for a trade-in high output cartridge (probably Benz wood), or low output (same cartridge) plus SUT (bearing in mind that my max SUT budget would be around £300).? Would the low output + SUT sound better than the high output?

Or forget MC altogether and go for a nice MM/MI? I do find the high output Benz sounds good, I have to say.

Cheers
John

John I bought a Reca Reson MM cart from the classifieds for £170 and it is the best cart I've heard in my system, not that I've heard a lot of carts but it really is a superb cart, I'm waiting on a valve phono stage which is supposed to make that cart really sing.

[nat8808]

Who's this "Macro" dude? :scratch:


Bloody spell checkers :scratch:

Sorry Micro it wont happen again , Promise ;)

I think he was trying to say you were cheap and shop in bulk at Macros.

[nat8808]

Back in the day (the 80s) I thought people with valve amps simply went straight into the MM stage and turned the volume up.. certainly reviews by Ken Kesler always did that, taking into account the loading etc.

Had you tried that Al with the Croft, direct into the MM input? Depending on the loading and cart output, it should just be quieter and so need turning up.

[Audio Al]

No , I have not tried that

I have a low output mc cart and use the sut with it , sound very nice:D