View Full Version : WTD - Digital stylus gauge
I'm after a decent accurate gauge with a low platform non magnetic for very occasional use. Used is fine - jewellers scales are not. Ta
Audio Al
04-04-2014, 05:42
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Stylus-Cartridge-Tracking-Weight-Gauge-Scale-0-01g-Accuracy-MC-MM-/141228629378?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Performance_DJ_Par ts_Accessories&hash=item20e1e1dd82
This should be fine
Clothears
04-04-2014, 05:46
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Stylus-Cartridge-Tracking-Weight-Gauge-Scale-0-01g-Accuracy-MC-MM-/141228629378?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Performance_DJ_Par ts_Accessories&hash=item20e1e1dd82
This should be fine
Apart from the P & P charges!
.
Always a bit suspicious of folk headlining a decent price then whacking on about 70% extra as delivery charge. Also looking for a max readout of 5 gms rather than 100. I know I know - I'm a fussy sod!
chris@panteg
04-04-2014, 06:39
I bought this one , 5g max and free postage !
It works perfectly .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221335596420
Yes, that's the one I have too, Chris. Works very well.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/PROFESSIONAL-DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-STYLUS-FORCE-SCALE-GAUGE-including-BATTERIES-/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/xXEAAOxydlFSqcwq/$_12.JPG
Fair enough - I'll get one. Ta
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2014, 07:12
Yes, that's the one I have too, Chris. Works very well.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/PROFESSIONAL-DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-STYLUS-FORCE-SCALE-GAUGE-including-BATTERIES-/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/xXEAAOxydlFSqcwq/$_12.JPG
+1 I have this one I think I got mine for about £17.
I find it interesting that folks wanting such accuracy for VTF when the very scale they use sits far too high above the platter surface to be truly accurate! :D
The ones pictured above don't - their platform is only a few millimetres thick. I used to do my own, but it just isn't worth the bother for £17.
I find it interesting that folks wanting such accuracy for VTF when the very scale they use sits far too high above the platter surface to be truly accurate! :D
Their thickness is not much more than a record so when placed on the platter the readings are fine.
I did wonder because this looks very high to me....
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/gos2/PICT0024.jpg
Yeah, you should use it with the platter mat removed.
I find it interesting that folks wanting such accuracy for VTF when the very scale they use sits far too high above the platter surface to be truly accurate! :D
The angular error involved leads to an error which is well within the accuracy of the scales.
I still use my old scales version...may not be as accurate but always seems good to me.
The angular error involved leads to an error which is well within the accuracy of the scales.
? err yes we know :scratch:
Bought what Chris and Martin recommended. Job done. Ta :)
? err yes we know :scratch:
If you know, why did you bring the subject up?
Forget that digital pish - this is what you need if you can find one... I give you the finest (and most accurate) stylus pressure gauge known to man:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/824/uq5w.png
:exactly:
Marco.
Hi Robin,
I have the same stylus gauge I believe you Chris and Martin have and can definitely recommend it. I am lucky enough to work with scientific calibration equipment and these scales are spot on to 2 decimal places.
:closed:
If you know, why did you bring the subject up?
Because it matters.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. When you said “Yes I know”, I assumed you agreed with me: that the error caused by using a set of scales where the weighing platform was not at the same level as the record playing surface was very small and within the overall accuracy of the scales themselves.
You replied, when I queried if you agreed with me why then raise the subject – “because it matters”. Well for the great majority of cases it does not matter at all.
I have measured the distance of the weighing platform on my jeweller’s scales. It is 13.6mm from the surface of the turntable platter. The average thickness of an LP is 1.6mm, so when the stylus sits on the weighing platform it is 12mm higher than when it sits in the record groove. This means the arm is lifted up by a small angle from its nominally horizontal position. If we assume the arm has an effective length of 9", or 228mm, then this angle is 12/228 = 0.0526 radian, or 3.02°.
So the downward force as measured by the scales will be reduced by a factor of cos (3.02°) = 0.9986, that is to say the scales will under-measure the VTF by the same factor. Thus a VTF of say 2.5g, as measured by the scales, will in actuality be 2.5035g. This is an error of 3.5mg, well within the accuracy of the scales, quoted to be ± 0.01g or 10mg.
This error lessens when using arms having a longer effective length, and correspondingly worsens when using arms having a short effective length. The latter situation could well arise with some linear tracking arms, and is particularly true of the short vertical arm stub of the Dynavector DV505 biaxial arm. In these few cases only, would I agree with you and say, “Yes it matters”.
I was always told that vta is not overly critical, within reason that is.... so as you point out it does not make much of a difference here either
That depends on the type of stylus used on your cartridge, and how 'forgiving' it is in that respect. Trust me, with the best line-contact types, such as an FG S (or similar), it matters, baby - BIGTIME! ;)
Marco.
I would say that VTF can be critical to the nearest 0.1g for some cartridges depending, as Marco says, on the stylus profile.
I tend to set close to the manufacturer's maximum tracking force and take it from there by listening.
VTF is relatively critical, depending on the stylus etc, and although the majority of arms and carts don't require exact VTA, I guess some will...there are always exceptions to the rule.
I would say that VTF can be critical to the nearest 0.1g for some cartridges depending, as Marco says, on the stylus profile.
I tend to set close to the manufacturer's maximum tracking force and take it from there by listening.
Hi Martin,
Any comments re. the last paragraph of my post (no. 22)?
Regarding VTF, I tend to set it at 0.25g below the manufacturer's maximum figure and take it from there by listening. The same with the anti-skating bias setting, which I usually find needs to be less than appropriate for the VTF.
Any comments re. the last paragraph of my post (no. 22)?
Hi Barry
Yes, the stub-arm can accentuate angular errors on my DV507-II and I use the simple expedient of adjusting the arm height cam to get it parallel when on the scales. Since arm height is the last adjustment I do (with a micro spirit level placed on the headshell), that works fine.
Stratmangler
06-04-2014, 22:43
Forget that digital pish - this is what you need if you can find one... I give you the finest (and most accurate) stylus pressure gauge known to man:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/824/uq5w.png
:exactly:
Marco.
And how much are these new?
Can you even get them new?
In lieu of them being available the digital scales come in as first in a one horse race.
The Techie scales may well be the "best" available, but they're made of unobtainium.
Along with Rocking Horse droppings and Unicorn Farts ;)
Lol - who said it had to be new??
In terms of availability, the Technics gauges turn up quite frequently on ebay... As they say: 'seek and ye shall find'! ;)
Oh look, here's one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281282207502?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
:ner:
Marco.
Stratmangler
06-04-2014, 22:57
I had a look on The Bay before I posted.
I've just purchased the one Chris@Panteg linked to.
One was sold on eBay earlier this year for £67.77.
There are 5 currently for sale on eBay, ranging in price from $200 (£120) to $395 (£239).
Me - I'll make do with my jeweller's scale, or my Swiss Mettler gauge or the Transcriptors 'spirit level' device.
Sure, and likewise, I'll make do with the digital scales I've had for years, but you can't deny that the Technics ones are much cooler, in typical retro-stylee (and I'd bet more accurate, too)! :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2014, 07:09
This may be of interest - A Review of Four Digital Stylus Pressure Gauges (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?67124-A-Review-Of-Four-Digital-Stylus-Pressure-Gauges)
Very interesting, Chris (and thanks for sharing)!
It proves what I've long suspected, which is that the ubiquitous 'el cheapo' digital scales, commonly used by all of us, are woefully inaccurate, as they were never designed for the purpose we use them for.... I simply use mine to get somewhere close to 'in the zone', and then fine-tune VTF by ear.
In that respect, I shall be ordering one of the ones from Steve Blinn desings, in my view priced very reasonably at $179 (around £108 - see here: http://www.steveblinndesigns.com/pricelist.html), for something that's actually designed for the job, and to remove any guesswork from the equation! :)
I like the styling of the vintage Technics gauge, but want the flexibility of being able to measure more than 3g VTF.
Marco.
I don't agree, if you look at the readings produced the differences are in the hundredths of a gram. Round them to a single decimal place and they are consistent. I've found that gentle blowing on them changes the reading and shows how sensitive they are. Unlike the reviewer's sample, mine reads correctly every time I check with the reference weight. Supposedly 'more accurate' scales only read to a single decimal place.
Fair enough, Martin. Obviously, accuracy varies from sample to sample, as my scales aren't as accurate as yours.
I'd rather remove all doubt/guessing from the equation and obtain a set of scales, designed for the intended purpose of measuring stylus pressure, which one can rely on to be consistently accurate.
I've been meaning to treat myself to some 'proper ones' for a while, but didn't want to pay the exorbitant prices being asked for those that are ridiculously over-engineered and fitted with a 'desirable badge', so in that respect, the Steve Blinn scales should hit the spot! :)
Marco.
The Barbarian
07-04-2014, 09:36
I can set my SME 3009 up manually as per SME instructions, then pop it on my el cheapo digital scales, both read the same weight. That will do for me..imho VTF does not have to be hair line accurate.
mad-moon
07-04-2014, 09:40
Corr that must be rarer than rockin horses poop...
Forget that digital pish - this is what you need if you can find one... I give you the finest (and most accurate) stylus pressure gauge known to man:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/824/uq5w.png
:exactly:
Marco.
imho VTF does not have to be hair line accurate.
Well you would have to change it every time you changed a record if it were, I have records that are as thin as paper and some other records that must be about 5mm thick and other records that are warped so how do you get it 'right' every time? you can't is the answer.
In that respect, I shall be ordering one of the ones from Steve Blinn desings, in my view priced very reasonably at $179 (around £108 - see here: http://www.steveblinndesigns.com/pricelist.html), for something that's actually designed for the job, and to remove any guesswork from the equation! :)
I wouldn't Marco - those scales are no more designed for the job than any of the other small jewellers scales available! I wouldn't say £108 is very reasonable for them either!
Very interesting, Chris (and thanks for sharing)!
It proves what I've long suspected, which is that the ubiquitous 'el cheapo' digital scales, commonly used by all of us, are woefully inaccurate, as they were never designed for the purpose we use them for.... I simply use mine to get somewhere close to 'in the zone', and then fine-tune VTF by ear.
In that respect, I shall be ordering one of the ones from Steve Blinn desings, in my view priced very reasonably at $179 (around £108 - see here: http://www.steveblinndesigns.com/pricelist.html), for something that's actually designed for the job, and to remove any guesswork from the equation! :)
I like the styling of the vintage Technics gauge, but want the flexibility of being able to measure more than 3g VTF.
Marco.
That Steve Blinn design look just like my jeweller's scale, which I think only cost me ~£18.
Surely Marco, your loyalty to Ortofon would oblige you to use Ortofon's own gauge? http://ortofon.com/products/accessories
I can set my SME 3009 up manually as per SME instructions, then pop it on my el cheapo digital scales, both read the same weight. That will do for me..imho VTF does not have to be hair line accurate.
You're dead right there André - and for most of the time I do just that. There are some situations where the counterbalancing and set up of VTF cannot be done separately, so for this a stylus balance is necessary.
Well my cheapo ebay scales have arrived so will have to see what is what. I should have ordered two so that I can check one against the other. Or they could both be wrong I suppose.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2014, 16:56
Actually, is all out utter accuracy even necessary?
Assuming we all find a rough setting using a gauge and then fine tune by ear, the actual figure is completely irrelevant. What we need from that point on is to repeat that same setting when we change things or to know what it is in order to check that it hasn't drifted off. It really doesn't matter what we call that setting - as long as it is reliably repeatable, then 15 elephants (for example) is just as useful a term as 1.7900005643984 grammes.
So what we really need as a minimum in a stylus gauge is precision, rather than accuracy.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LpvA4lv5DbE/SwVFCc5oK7I/AAAAAAAAADo/PR25UL3t4tw/s1600/Accuracy+vs+Precision.jpg
Guys,
I hear where you're coming from, regarding the Steve Blinn scales, which also made me think twice, but as usual, the devil is in the detail... I like the indentation for the stylus in the measuring platform, which inspires confidence and increases consistency of use, and they appear to be very accurate. Apart from that, I also like the look of them! :)
More detailed description here:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-steve-blinn-designs-stylus-force-gauge-digital-gauge-1-100gm-accuracy-2012-11-21-analog-10301
So, I'll give them a go and report back when they arrive :cool:
Marco.
Marco, it's up to you obviously, but those scales are obviously modified jewellers scales (as are mine and many others). The blurb says they are accurate to 100th of a gram - that is the standard for these types of scales, my own are exactly the same. Honestly, if you want to spend three times as much as you need to and order from the US then that's up to you - makes no sense to me though.
julesd68
12-04-2014, 15:09
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. When you said “Yes I know”, I assumed you agreed with me: that the error caused by using a set of scales where the weighing platform was not at the same level as the record playing surface was very small and within the overall accuracy of the scales themselves.
You replied, when I queried if you agreed with me why then raise the subject – “because it matters”. Well for the great majority of cases it does not matter at all.
I got a set of these 0.01g accurate digital scales this week and set them up today. Bit of a pain to get the weighing platform at the right height as platter / mat / lp (the platform is on a bit of a slant which doesn't help) but with a bit of perservering I managed to get the VTF spot on my target of 1.8g. With my previous scales, which were 0.1g accurate, the VTF measured 1.8g but in actuality turned out to be 1.77g. So, hardly a critical difference, but hey, might as well get it right ... I also noticed that when the weighing platform was a few mm too high, it made roughly 0.04g difference to the result. Not a deal-breaker either, especially with different thicknesses of vinyl as mentioned. A worthwhile bit of kit though, thanks for the recco. :)
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