View Full Version : High End? What about 'Bottom End'? Nominations please!
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 19:09
We've all heard the overused term 'High End' in relation to Hi-Fi, but what about the bottom end? Over the years there have been some real Audio Clunkers. I call them that, as many just can't even be described as proper Hi-Fi. I'll miss out a few obvious names, but start the ball rolling with a few of what I regard as horrors:
BSR MP60 turntable
Garrard 2025 turntable
Decca Deram ceramic cartridge (it may well have been the best ceramic, but it was still awful)
Wharfedale Denton 2 and Linton 2 speakers
Goodmans Minister speakers
Anything with Tensai written on it
Goldring GL85
Transcriptors Fluid Arm
DIN plugs
Things with 'Control One' written on them
Audiolab 8000A
Pioneer A400
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 19:19
QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.
QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.
Yes every time a new person comes in complaining their system that is usually the first suspect
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 19:29
QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.
Oh yes! I should have included that myself. The mags all raved about it, but it is harsh grainy crap! (not surprising at the price though)
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 19:30
With the usual response "but how can it be at fault ? What Hifi gave it five stars" :D
I recall reading that What hifi's review room is seriously over damped so anything harsh & bright sounds great... To them.
QED Silver anniversary speaker cable.
Sod. The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the thread title.
I reckon I could throw Qunex silver spiral on the pile/pyre too though for much the same reasons.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 19:46
I reckon I could throw Qunex silver spiral on the pile/pyre too though for much the same reasons.
Strange, I've got a pair of Qunex interconnects that sound rather good, but I did terminate them myself and fitted decent plugs.
velocesprint
03-04-2014, 19:46
And therein lies the problem for the journalists - at the end of the day it is only their opinion, however they have a massive responsibility to guide people. Everybody has different hearing, different rooms, different combinations of equipment... the possibilities are infinite. There is only one way to find out - try it in your own system. Unfortunately that can be expensive indeed. And sometimes products just don't work in one setting - too many times I have had a very expensive and well regarded bit of kit that just didn't cut the mustard with what I was using at the time. The cheaper stuff worked better in that context. It does happen I am afraid.
It is why I would never criticize some ones system or music - even if it doesn't work for me. At the end of the day with hearing damaged by 30 years of heavy machinery - what do I know? .... only what I like and makes me happy :)
On a more "on track" note though Nordost cables never excited me (that might be controversial)
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 19:49
Its a mixed bag, I've used "Qunex 2" phonos and found them to be fine but genesis silver spiral was tinny much like silver anny.
Best just to avoid QED silver products :D
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 19:50
On a more "on track" note though Nordost cables never excited me (that might be controversial)
With me it's VDH cables that seem uninspiring. (with the exception of my pair of Thunderline interconnects which are OK)
Strange as i used qed 79 strand which i guess is cheaper but sounds fine to me.
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 19:52
:offtopic:
This is turning into a cable thread - Kill it ! Kill it with fire !
velocesprint
03-04-2014, 19:56
Marantz PM310 - what a howler!
Agree about anything with Tensai on it
Some of the Nad stuff was not great either
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 20:35
Another that the rags waxed lyrical about, Quad 11L. They are some of the most boring, unmusical tripe I've ever had the misfortune of hearing.
nad 3020 ok but highly overated on it's arrival.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 20:44
Another that the rags waxed lyrical about, Quad 11L. They are some of the most boring, unmusical tripe I've ever had the misfortune of hearing.
Ho Ho! That's another one I agree with you on James. Dull little boxes, coloured too.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 20:45
nad 3020 ok but highly overated on it's arrival.
Still overrated now!
The Grand Wazoo
03-04-2014, 20:49
My, what a jolly little thread this is! I bet it'll be making some people really glad that their stuff is being so wholesomely endorsed.
Beobloke
03-04-2014, 21:00
Connoisseur BD1!
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 21:01
My, what a jolly little thread this is! I bet it'll be making some people really glad that their stuff is being so wholesomely endorsed.
Just a bit of fun Chris. Lets face it, it doesn't matter what you own, somebody'll want to crap on it! :) In fact, it doesn't matter what you own - full stop!
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 21:01
Connoisseur BD1!
Now I like those. Still got one!
velocesprint
03-04-2014, 21:02
Just a bit of fun Chris. Lets face it, it doesn't matter what you own, somebody'll want to crap on it! :) In fact, it doesn't matter what you own - full stop!
Well said that man - anyway there is a perverse pleasure in knowing that every body else is wrong :eek:
istari_knight
03-04-2014, 21:03
Ho Ho! That's another one I agree with you on James. Dull little boxes, coloured too.
Great minds think alike ! ... Or is it fools seldom differ ?
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 21:04
there is a perverse pleasure in knowing that every body else is wrong :eek:
I know that feeling so well! ;)
Anything that was designed solely by using measurements!
Marco.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 21:10
Anything that was designed solely by using measurements!
Marco.
I suppose that could include the original 'C' series KEF speakers.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 21:12
So overrated and now vastly overpriced:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Goodmans-maxim-speakers-pair-/231196569410?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item35d463af42
Last pair I bought cost me £8 at a boot sale and I thought I'd been done when I tried them. :eyebrows:
Mission Cyrus 2.
And yes, I bought one and took it back, it sounded so utterly woeful, thinking it was faulty. The replacement one was just as bad.
My little Rotel RA-820B kicked its arse into next month.
Just two from me:
Sony PST1 direct drive turntable.
Nytech CA252 amplifier (I know some people swear by this, but my time of ownership was mostly spent swearing at it).
Other stuff that I didn't get on with I'm prepared to put down to lack of system synergy.
QED Qunex 2 IC's, they sounded dire in my system by sapping the life out of the music...
kininigin
03-04-2014, 22:26
AVI ADM9s!
Marco.
I've never heard these,so can't comment on them but i would like to compare them to mine,just to see what all the fuss is over them! Anyone on AoS have a pair to do battle? That's probably the most stupid question i have asked on here! And i've asked a few :lol:
Anything that was designed solely by using measurements!
Marco.
There goes 90% of all Hifi then Marco ;)
potatoha
04-04-2014, 09:03
Wharfedale diamonds (only the bookshelf ones) in any incarnation. Distinctly no high-end but it's very immune to crappy ancillaries and make music with its own voice. Cheap price but no cheap sound. Greatest buy speaker of all time!!!
There goes 90% of all Hifi then Marco...
I'll stick to using the other (superior) 10% then, Paul! :eyebrows:
Remember that the key word here is "solely" - and in that respect I'm thinking mainly of mass-produced gear that is simply churned out on production lines by a computer. However, equipment produced by manufacturers with a rather dogmatic 'objectivist' approach also comes into that category.
Experience tells me that the designs produced by the most talented audio engineers always start their lives on the test bench, but end up being listened to, and assessed critically on that basis, in a known reference system.
In that respect, the best equipment, IME, is always produced first by adhering to known measurement parameters (it's impossible to do otherwise), but in the final analysis is 'voiced by ear' (in terms of component choice, as essentially it's all about creating the right 'recipe') - and depending on how good the designer is at understanding the fundamental requirements of electronic equipment to accurately reproduce a sound which resembles as closely as possible that of real music, will determine whether one ends up with a device which excels in that area or not....
;)
Marco.
90% of anything labelled Radio shack/Tandy/Realistic? But there are honourable exceptions such as the Linneaum speakers
And, at the the risk of throwing a grenade into this debate, I've never heard an LP12 worth the money...:sofa:
P
Mission Cyrus 2.
And yes, I bought one and took it back, it sounded so utterly woeful, thinking it was faulty. The replacement one was just as bad.
My little Rotel RA-820B kicked its arse into next month.
Can't agree with you there - My Cyrus 2/PSX sounded superb with my Epos ES-14s.. got to use the right speakers I think...
Helius Aureus tonearm
Linn Kan & Index speakers
Naim SBL & DBL speakers
Bose anything
walpurgis
04-04-2014, 10:11
Naim SBL & DBL speakers
Oh yes. Hated those!
Firebottle
04-04-2014, 12:15
Sinclair System 3000 ...............no scrub that, anything with Sinclair on it.
Never mind be designed by measurements (possibly :mental:), I think they were designed down to a price by repeatedly removing components.
When the sound stopped, put the last one back :eyebrows:
Tensai getting some undeserved stick. It was very cheap, let's face it you could buy their 4 way speakers for £50 back in the day. I had a forty quid Tensai turntable from Richer Sound, that was in 1988, did me for a couple of years then got handed down to my brother. Still working as of this year.
Sinclair System 3000 ...............no scrub that, anything with Sinclair on it.
Never mind be designed by measurements (possibly :mental:), I think they were designed down to a price by repeatedly removing components.
When the sound stopped, put the last one back :eyebrows:
I think that was actually exactly how they did their production engineering. Sometimes they didn't notice and otherwise potentially viable products were made horribly unreliable as a consequence of penny-pinching.
Cheers,
Alex
We've all heard the overused term 'High End' in relation to Hi-Fi, but what about the bottom end? Over the years there have been some real Audio Clunkers. I call them that, as many just can't even be described as proper Hi-Fi. I'll miss out a few obvious names, but start the ball rolling with a few of what I regard as horrors:
BSR MP60 turntable
Garrard 2025 turntable
Decca Deram ceramic cartridge (it may well have been the best ceramic, but it was still awful)
Wharfedale Denton 2 and Linton 2 speakers
Goodmans Minister speakers
Anything with Tensai written on it
Goldring GL85
Transcriptors Fluid Arm
DIN plugs
Things with 'Control One' written on them
What a load of bollards this list is!!!! :steam:
MP60. Came with nice ADC K8E cartridge and despite high bearing friction and a touch of rumble on bigger speakers, could sound very acceptable in student digs! The HT70 with cast platter was much better, but came a bit too late I remember, as did the better still BDS80, which was based on the same auto chassis.
2025/2025TC Garrard - I know the Autoslim derivatives probably better than anyone here (except beobloke) but have probably taken more apart than he has. Fitted with a Garrard/Sonotone KS41C/3559 or Acos GP96 or GP104 (as Hacker used), they can sound again, very nice into the right load. Anyone slagging off ceramic cartridges has obviously not listened to one correctly loaded in recent times. I have the BSR SC12M, Acos 96 and 104, Sonotone 9TA-HC and 3559 models as well as a rather good Ronette Stereo 105 needing a heavy old Bakelite style arm to work best and I can assure you that surface roar aside, into a 1.5M load, they can sound incredibly vital 'alive' and involving to listen to, if not the last word in refinement. The little bit of sparkle in the mid treble actually helps the sound of many 60's pop LP's and singles IMO, the singles especially mixed and cut with this style of pickup in mind!
I have yet to hear a Deram cartridge but I believe hifi dave has one with my name on, to borrow at least...
I OWN a pair of Denton W20's from the late 60's and very nice and self-effacing they are too. Great fun and rather well designed for the market they were used with. The MK2 and XP models were iffy I grant you.
Don't remember the Ministers, but liked the Magnum K2's, Goodwoods and little original Maxims very much.
Tensai - probably agree :lol:
GL85 - Designed at the wrong time as tonearms were lighter and the dangers of weak DC motors (dynamic wow) hadn't been acknowledged at the time. Love the look of it though :)
Transcriptors Fluid Arm - have you EVER heard or used one with an original ADC XLM or 25/26/10E IV/Sonus Blue or Empre 1000Z-EX or 2000Z? A wonderful tonearm for such high compliance cartridges and can sound amazing with these with a Garrard 401
DIN Plugs - agreed. Naim were idiots to use them (space saving on the 12 preamp probably) but built a silly cult around these horrid connectors. Why JV didn't use BNC's from the off I'll never know, but then, he was never an electronics engineer, just good at Maths.....
Control 1'a are fine surround boxes, but I don't think they were ever intended for high quality music were they?
Naim SBL & DBL speakers
DBL's are truly dire in every situation I've heard them in, but have you ever tried the later SBL's with Non-Naim amps? They're transformed I found although sadly, I never got to hear them active outside of a Naim system - the whistly old Scan tweeter (a naSSSSSty 9kHz resonance in all versions) taking one's fillings out in the stock Naim active crossover setting...
What a load of bollards this list is!!!! :steam:
MP60. Came with nice ADC K8E cartridge and despite high bearing friction and a touch of rumble on bigger speakers, could sound very acceptable in student digs! The HT70 with cast platter was much better, but came a bit too late I remember, as did the better still BDS80, which was based on the same auto chassis.
2025/2025TC Garrard - I know the Autoslim derivatives probably better than anyone here (except beobloke) but have probably taken more apart than he has. Fitted with a Garrard/Sonotone KS41C/3559 or Acos GP96 or GP104 (as Hacker used), they can sound again, very nice into the right load. Anyone slagging off ceramic cartridges has obviously not listened to one correctly loaded in recent times. I have the BSR SC12M, Acos 96 and 104, Sonotone 9TA-HC and 3559 models as well as a rather good Ronette Stereo 105 needing a heavy old Bakelite style arm to work best and I can assure you that surface roar aside, into a 1.5M load, they can sound incredibly vital 'alive' and involving to listen to, if not the last word in refinement. The little bit of sparkle in the mid treble actually helps the sound of many 60's pop LP's and singles IMO, the singles especially mixed and cut with this style of pickup in mind!
I have yet to hear a Deram cartridge but I believe hifi dave has one with my name on, to borrow at least...
I OWN a pair of Denton W20's from the late 60's and very nice and self-effacing they are too. Great fun and rather well designed for the market they were used with. The MK2 and XP models were iffy I grant you.
Don't remember the Ministers, but liked the Magnum K2's, Goodwoods and little original Maxims very much.
Tensai - probably agree :lol:
GL85 - Designed at the wrong time as tonearms were lighter and the dangers of weak DC motors (dynamic wow) hadn't been acknowledged at the time. Love the look of it though :)
Transcriptors Fluid Arm - have you EVER heard or used one with an original ADC XLM or 25/26/10E IV/Sonus Blue or Empre 1000Z-EX or 2000Z? A wonderful tonearm for such high compliance cartridges and can sound amazing with these with a Garrard 401
DIN Plugs - agreed. Naim were idiots to use them (space saving on the 12 preamp probably) but built a silly cult around these horrid connectors. Why JV didn't use BNC's from the off I'll never know, but then, he was never an electronics engineer, just good at Maths.....
Control 1'a are fine surround boxes, but I don't think they were ever intended for high quality music were they?
Have to say I agree with you here David. A well set up Fluid arm is a thing of beauty and sounds fantastic with both the Sonus Blue Gold and the V15III for which it was originally intended to be used. I have heard one fitted to an original Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference Deck (well isolated) and it was a fabulous combination.
Sinclair System 3000 ...............no scrub that, anything with Sinclair on it.
Never mind be designed by measurements (possibly :mental:), I think they were designed down to a price by repeatedly removing components.
When the sound stopped, put the last one back :eyebrows:
Umm - Do you realise the Naim amp circuit is apparently basically the same thing, both derived from that old 1950's RCA PA amp circuit????? At some point, the RCA circuit was modified/bodged to work with more modern transistors, but I don't know when this was done, or whether Clive Sinclair may have done this himself - can't recall the 1960's history of this design although we all know about how Naim adopted it and made it potentially even more unstable than it was originally - cough - ..
Have to say I agree with you here David. A well set up Fluid arm is a thing of beauty and sounds fantastic with both the Sonus Blue Gold and the V15III for which it was originally intended to be used. I have heard one fitted to an original Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference Deck (well isolated) and it was a fabulous combination.
With a surviving 25/26/10E IV it has BALLS too :)
istari_knight
04-04-2014, 17:23
Umm - Do you realise the Naim amp circuit is apparently basically the same thing, both derived from that old 1950's RCA PA amp circuit????? At some point, the RCA circuit was modified/bodged to work with more modern transistors, but I don't know when this was done, or whether Clive Sinclair may have done this himself - can't recall the 1960's history of this design although we all know about how Naim adopted it and made it potentially even more unstable than it was originally - cough - ..
The old story I heard was that Vereker attended an electronics seminar or something like that presented by Bob Stuart where at the end Julian asked Bob "If I wanted to make myself a decent amplifier how should I go about it ?" Bob replied "just use some Sinclair modules with an oversized power supply."
... AFAIK Bob later exclaimed "I never expected him to actually do it!"
Glad to see the Transcriptors Fluid arm being so robustly defended!
My nominations are the truly awful Goldring G101 turntable, and for those who can remember, Strathearn. Was there ever a more complete waste of a large lump of public money?
have you ever tried the later SBL's with Non-Naim amps?
No, I've only ever heard them in Naim systems, and Naim were consistently brilliant at making their own systems sound shite at hi-fi shows.
As for DBLs, every time I hear them I think 'disco'. That's not a good thing :eek:
Beobloke
04-04-2014, 18:25
MP60. Came with nice ADC K8E cartridge and despite high bearing friction and a touch of rumble on bigger speakers, could sound very acceptable in student digs! The HT70 with cast platter was much better, but came a bit too late I remember, as did the better still BDS80, which was based on the same auto chassis.
2025/2025TC Garrard - I know the Autoslim derivatives probably better than anyone here (except beobloke) but have probably taken more apart than he has. Fitted with a Garrard/Sonotone KS41C/3559 or Acos GP96 or GP104 (as Hacker used), they can sound again, very nice into the right load. Anyone slagging off ceramic cartridges has obviously not listened to one correctly loaded in recent times. I have the BSR SC12M, Acos 96 and 104, Sonotone 9TA-HC and 3559 models as well as a rather good Ronette Stereo 105 needing a heavy old Bakelite style arm to work best and I can assure you that surface roar aside, into a 1.5M load, they can sound incredibly vital 'alive' and involving to listen to, if not the last word in refinement. The little bit of sparkle in the mid treble actually helps the sound of many 60's pop LP's and singles IMO, the singles especially mixed and cut with this style of pickup in mind!
I have yet to hear a Deram cartridge but I believe hifi dave has one with my name on, to borrow at least...
MP60 - meh. It's still a BSR and an SP25MkIII will wee all over it!
2025TC - I wouldn't bank on you having taken more apart than me but I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with the 2025TC and that some of those old ceramics can turn in quite a decent performance. The Deram's a fabulous item, too. I'll be interested to hear what you think when you try one.
As to DBLs, the first time I heard them, I hated them. I genuinely wondered if the bass drivers and tweeters were connected as they appeared to be all midrange and not much else. Every time I've heard them since then, though, I've been blown away by them. They were one of the contenders for big speakers for our new lounge but Mrs. B vetoed them on looks (she muttered something about "tombstones"...) and we've bought something even better now, anyway...:eyebrows:
Strange as I used qed 79 strand which I guess is cheaper but sounds fine to me.
I still do, and there's nothing wrong with them.
So overrated and now vastly overpriced:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Goodmans-maxim-speakers-pair-/231196569410?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item35d463af42
Last pair I bought cost me £8 at a boot sale and I thought I'd been done when I tried them. :eyebrows:
For their size and time they were a lovely 'bookshelf' design, given the constraints.
£500 a pair today is vastly overpriced - looks like they are trying to get on the LS3/5A bandwagon.
[QUOTE=Beobloke;539429]2025TC - I wouldn't bank on you having taken more apart than meQUOTE]
Oh I dunno, I started to make a list and thought better of it ;) I started very young you know :lol:
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I nominate:
Virtually all RCA phono connectors
DINs are much better design, if more fiddly to solder. XLRs are even better.
and
Linn Isobarik speakers (the early versions)
No focus, a horrible ‘swimming image’, no soundstage whatsoever. :sofa:
Linn Kann speakers
Mr Kipling
04-04-2014, 20:26
After reading about the technology that went into the Celestion SL6 speakers I was really expecting something special when I got to hear them. Sadly, it didn't materialise. I was really surprised by the "sat-on" somewhat dull sound. A mate compared them to some B&Ws which we both preferred and he bought. I did wonder if the amp/speaker combination was less than ideal.
Linn Helix speakers for me.
julesd68
04-04-2014, 22:21
No focus, a horrible ‘swimming image’, no soundstage whatsoever. :sofa:
Linn Kann speakers
Agreed, and Linn Kanns give me a headache, way too bright for me ... I thought Linn Indexes were pretty grim back in the day aswell.
For some unknown reason I bought an Audiolab 8000A a couple of years ago, even though I didn't like it when it first came out. When I got it, the sound was so bad I thought it was faulty, so got it serviced by an Audiolab 'specialist' but didn't sound much better after that ... The only good thing was that when I sold it on ebay I got more than my money back they are still so popular ...
walpurgis
04-04-2014, 22:26
For some unknown reason I bought an Audiolab 8000A a couple of years ago, even though I didn't like it when it first came out. When I got it, the sound was so bad I thought it was faulty, so got it serviced by an Audiolab 'specialist' but didn't sound much better after that ... The only good thing was that when I sold it on ebay I got more than my money back they are still so popular ...
I tried one on my system and it sounded like a blanket had been hung in front of the speakers. Got the same effect using a NAD 3020 too!
julesd68
04-04-2014, 22:51
I tried one on my system and it sounded like a blanket had been hung in front of the speakers. Got the same effect using a NAD 3020 too!
Good description Geoff!
Back in the 80's I once auditioned a number of cheap integrated amps at a dealer - there was an entry-level Sugden amp (can't remember the model) that I thought was totally flat, lifeless and boring. For some reason I always remember the dealer's reply to me - 'we like to think of it as neutral.' :doh:
AVI ADM9s!
Marco.
I know you mean this as a joke, but have you PERSONALLY actually heard them? After the highly characterful stereo's most of us own, myself included, anything trying to present a more 'truthful' reproduction of the recording can sound bland and rather boring. In your case, after a HUGE pair of refurbished studio monitors, ANYTHING in a 9L box with a 6" main driver is going to sound underwhelming..
Anyway, we're being told that the current ones seven years on from the originals are SO much clearer and better than the originals, yet the originals would see the backside off any 'passive' speakers out there... :rolleyes:
Linn Index/Kustone...over rated, dull, beaten by Heybrook HB2's which were considerably cheaper.
Linn LP12...a competent deck parading as hi-end back in the day when it was nothing of the sort (301/401 and Thorens TD124 were MUCH better). Whilst initially reasonably priced, the list of "upgrades" and corresponding price hikes over the years have made it very expensive but still no "super deck" imho. Also, some cynicism remains about some of these "upgrades" which were more product development as the deck wasn't really ready to launch when it did.
Most early CDPs and CDs...definitely "low fi" for my tastes. Harsh, bright, brash with few redeeming qualities. It didn't take long though for some major improvements to be made and some stunning battleship build CDPs from the 1980's are still very respected today.
A majority of Chinese valve amps (ok, I can hear the "boo" "hiss" comments but just being honest ;)). Not all, as there are exceptions.
Technics 1210 - dodgy disco deck with poor platter, dodgy bearing, bad power supply, cheap arm etc
If you replace most of the bits it can be made OK, so I hear.
Am I banned?:)
:lolsign:
:interesting:
:guns: :guns:
:fence: :fence:
:spank: :spank:
:goodfriends: :goodfriends:
:kiss: :kiss:
:grouphug:
Marco.
Well taken Marco;):) Grin & a little chuckle here.
istari_knight
05-04-2014, 17:09
I'm struggling to think of anything else thats truly awful :hmm:
I despise Grado headphones but am probably in the minority there.
RobbieGong
05-04-2014, 17:13
Technics 1210 - dodgy disco deck with poor platter, dodgy bearing, bad power supply, cheap arm etc
If you replace most of the bits it can be made OK, so I hear.
Am I banned?:)
:lolsign:
walpurgis
05-04-2014, 18:58
I'm struggling to think of anything else thats truly awful :hmm:
I despise Grado headphones but am probably in the minority there.
Never heard a pair of Koss headphones I liked. That includes the old electrostatics.
Lol.... I use a pair of modern 'reissued' Koss PRO-4 AA's with great success, Geoff! See here (and the rest of the thread, if you're interested):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?9733-Koss-PRO-4-AA-vintage-headpones&p=188996#post188996
Remember the key word: CONTEXT! ;)
If you get a chance to listen to a pair (they differ somewhat in voicing, compared with the vintage ones), in conjunction with a sonically complimentary and high-quality headphone amp, I'm sure you'd be pleasantly surprised.
Marco.
walpurgis
05-04-2014, 20:09
Not tried the modern interpretation of the PRO-4 Marco, but I've owned a couple of pairs of the originals and did not like them much. Granted the sound quality was somewhat better than their cheaper models. Not to mention that wearing a pair was like having one's head in a vise!
I'm not much of a headphone user. I just keep a pair of Yamaha HP-1 Orthodynamics about for occasional listening and a big pair of Audio Technicas for equipment testing (couldn't say which model, as the badges have fallen off). :)
No worries, dude. Just thought I'd put things into proper perspective :)
Here's another Koss fan, extolling the virtues of his PRO4 AAs: http://www.epinions.com/review/koss_pro4aa_headband_headphones_beige/content_88730144388?sb=1
Marco.
istari_knight
05-04-2014, 20:35
I use my headphone's every night but I've never tried any proper Koss... I'll have to read up on them. My favourite's so far have been [rather predictably] Sennheiser HD600 & AKG701 with Superlux HD662 bringing up the rear... Now they are budget belters !
As posted earlier I'm not a fan of Grado's, I had both SR60 & RS1 at the same time and they were both equally the most uncomfortable & harsh sounding 'can's I've used - And that was powered by Darkvoice 336SE / Little Dot III valve amps. I really don't understand the pricing or the fanbase but there you go :scratch: Each to their own & all that.
I use my headphone's every night but I've never tried any proper Koss...
Defo try some, James, should a pair come your way. If you can live with their weight (comfort would only be a 7 out of 10), the sheer 'listenability' and musical insight on offer, considering their price, is quite remarkable!
Marco.
istari_knight
05-04-2014, 20:56
I'll keep an eye out for some s/h :thumbsup:
chris@panteg
06-04-2014, 10:23
Linn LK1 and LK2 amps, crumbly and veiled, almost laughably bad, I remember my Linn dealer telling me he loaned a set to a custumer, who promptly brought them back saying he hated them?
The dealer seemed baffled and nonplussed? I tried not to smile and said something like, he must be really fussy:eyebrows:
Linn LK1 and LK2 amps, crumbly and veiled, almost laughably bad, I remember my Linn dealer telling me he loaned a set to a custumer, who promptly brought them back saying he hated them?
The dealer seemed baffled and nonplussed? I tried not to smile and said something like, he must be really fussy:eyebrows:
Thanks Chris I am just about to put an LK1 up for sale ;)
|When I bought it many years ago now the seller advised me to try it with a Belkin mains block, a particular model designed for use with computer equipment. The Belkin was 50 quid on Amazon so I got one. The LK1 was a fair improvement on my Rotel pre but when hooked up to the Belkin the sound jumped into a whole new ballgame, obvious drop in noise floor, veil lifted territory. I used that set up for a long time quite happily until I had a new leccy meter fitted and forgot to unplug the Belkin and whatever happened it died. It was no longer available so I bought what seemed to be the latest version but it was not the same and made no improvement to the sound. Anyway just goes to show it is horses for courses there are very few truly bad products, I suppose if I had to nominate something I would never recommend in any context it would be the Wharfedale Delta 30.
chris@panteg
06-04-2014, 10:55
Thanks Chris I am just about to put an LK1 up for sale ;)
|When I bought it many years ago now the seller advised me to try it with a Belkin mains block, a particular model designed for use with computer equipment. The Belkin was 50 quid on Amazon so I got one. The LK1 was a fair improvement on my Rotel pre but when hooked up to the Belkin the sound jumped into a whole new ballgame, obvious drop in noise floor, veil lifted territory. I used that set up for a long time quite happily until I had a new leccy meter fitted and forgot to unplug the Belkin and whatever happened it died. It was no longer available so I bought what seemed to be the latest version but it was not the same and made no improvement to the sound. Anyway just goes to show it is horses for courses there are very few truly bad products, I suppose if I had to nominate something I would never recommend in any context it would be the Wharfedale Delta 30.
Sorry Martin, bad timing!
I understand it that they did refine and improve them, it was the very 1st models I'm referring to, these were poorly received.
The Barbarian
06-04-2014, 12:32
Easy
Certain DJ decks, Certain vintage speakers & ofc anything that does not have tone controls
That just about wraps it oop
:eyebrows:
:lolsign:
I was wondering how long it would take for you to say that!
Marco.
The Barbarian
06-04-2014, 14:34
:lol:
Sorry Martin, bad timing!
I understand it that they did refine and improve them, it was the very 1st models I'm referring to, these were poorly received.
The LK1 got slightly better until the Dirak came along, upon which it seemed to get worse again (I don't mind the LK1 after the first batch, but it needs the extra supply capacity (they doubled the value of the caps)).
Ask the buyer NOT to leave on 24/7 as the main board will burn out!
The LK1 got slightly better until the Dirak came along, upon which it seemed to get worse again (I don't mind the LK1 after the first batch, but it needs the extra supply capacity (they doubled the value of the caps)).
Ask the buyer NOT to leave on 24/7 as the main board will burn out!
There's not going to be a buyer at this rate...I'm planning on selling a Sony TAF55ES and a Linn LK100 in the near future too, if anyone wants to slag them off now's your chance ;)
You'd be as well 'killing two birds' and just advertising them as Pishanto - it's becoming very fashionable now, you know!! :D
Marco.
P.S I hear that a hen-pecked husband has come to your rescue on the SL-P1200 front... [Wifey won't 'let him' have it in the lounge, ho, ho... ] :eyebrows:
You'd be as well 'killing two birds' and just advertising them as Pishanto - it's becoming very fashionable now, you know!! :D
Marco.
P.S I hear that a hen-pecked husband has come to your rescue on the SL-P1200 front... :eyebrows:
Yes I am hoping to be shortly back in the game on the SLP1200 front...bit of a chunk from the mortgage repayment fund but it is the last piece of the jigsaw that will give me a truly killer system so it has to be worth it. It's been a long road.
Nice one, mate. I'm pleased for ya! Baw-jaws' loss is your gain... Honestly, who cares what a bloody CD player looks like?? :mental: :mental:
Anyway, enjoy!! :)
Marco.
Naughty Nigel
06-04-2014, 23:06
Another that the rags waxed lyrical about, Quad 11L. They are some of the most boring, unmusical tripe I've ever had the misfortune of hearing.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have a pair of Quad 11L's in my study, (driven by a Pioneer A-400 as it happens, which I see somebody else slated on this thread). The Quads sound very good to my ear, but then I perform regularly, and I am very used to hearing live music, so that probably counts me out of this debate. :)
I am very sensitive to cabinet colouration, and even went to the trouble of building a pair of concrete lined cabinets when I was a student in the 1970's. I have also modified several pairs of loudspeakers since to eliminate colouration, but I do not feel any need to do this with the Quad 11L's.
I believe the original 11L's, which I have, were developed and built for Quad by Spendor, whilst the later 11L2 version is built in China, and I hear is nowhere near as good musically.
I also have a pair of 22L's in my main system, which I like a lot, although I haven't had them long enough to really get to know them yet.
I have to say though, as someone who studied electronics at Uni many years ago, there is more bullshit spouted about HiFi than just about any other subject that I can think of, and if you try hard enough you can convince yourself of almost anything! :)
I am used to being sneered at in HiFi emporia because I use a twenty-five year old Philips CD960 CD player in my main system, but frankly I really don't care. It might be ugly, but it sounds good to me, and that is all that matters. Oddly enough, I got similar sneering remarks about my Quad II amplifiers around the time I bought the Philips CD player, but opinions seem to have changed about those too, so perhaps I was right to ignore the snotty salesman who wanted to PX my Quads for a Cambridge amplifier? :)
Nigel.
istari_knight
06-04-2014, 23:36
One mans meat truly is another mans poison. I'll leave it at that ;)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I have a pair of Quad 11L's in my study, (driven by a Pioneer A-400 as it happens, which I see somebody else slated on this thread). The Quads sound very good to my ear, but then I perform regularly, and I am very used to hearing live music, so that probably counts me out of this debate. :)
I am very sensitive to cabinet colouration, and even went to the trouble of building a pair of concrete lined cabinets when I was a student in the 1970's. I have also modified several pairs of loudspeakers since to eliminate colouration, but I do not feel any need to do this with the Quad 11L's.
I believe the original 11L's, which I have, were developed and built for Quad by Spendor, whilst the later 11L2 version is built in China, and I hear is nowhere near as good musically.
I also have a pair of 22L's in my main system, which I like a lot, although I haven't had them long enough to really get to know them yet.
I have to say though, as someone who studied electronics at Uni many years ago, there is more bullshit spouted about HiFi than just about any other subject that I can think of, and if you try hard enough you can convince yourself of almost anything! :)
I am used to being sneered at in HiFi emporia because I use a twenty-five year old Philips CD960 CD player in my main system, but frankly I really don't care. It might be ugly, but it sounds good to me, and that is all that matters. Oddly enough, I got similar sneering remarks about my Quad II amplifiers around the time I bought the Philips CD player, but opinions seem to have changed about those too, so perhaps I was right to ignore the snotty salesman who wanted to PX my Quads for a Cambridge amplifier? :)
Nigel.
Quite right, Nigel. Long may you continue to plough your own furrow and stick two fingers up to convention!! :respect:
There are many 25 year-old CD players that sound far better than a lot of the overpriced shite being made now.
Marco.
Naughty Nigel
07-04-2014, 12:30
One mans meat truly is another mans poison. I'll leave it at that ;)
It is indeed. I would also agree that there is a lot of naff 'HiFi' equipment out there; and not all of it from the bottom end of the market. (I notice Linn has had a few dishonourable mentions here already.)
But how do we judge whether a system is good or not? For me it is easy as I know what a live performance sounds and feels like, but I know many others are not as lucky. I would suggest that it also depends a lot on what sort of music we like to listen to, as some systems cope better with some genres than others. Surely that itself is a weakness, as a 'good' system should add nothing and take nothing away, and therefore reproduce all genres equally?
However, I am under no illusions that even the 'best' HiFi system can only provide a representation of the original sound, in much the same way that a camera can only provide a pictorial representation of the original scene. It is not like baking a cake or brewing a beer that tastes identical to the 'gold standard'.
There is also the matter of recording, as modern mastering techniques allow us to listen to music which is perhaps 'better'/'cleaner'/'purer'/'more accurate' than a real live performance; which is why some musicians dislike listening to CD's of music they know well, as many commercial recordings bear little resemblance to a real live performance.
Nigel.
StanleyB
07-04-2014, 13:27
But how do we judge whether a system is good or not? For me it is easy as I know what a live performance sounds and feels like, but I know many others are not as lucky.
It is a frequently overused expression that carries little or no weight in all but the most exceptional circumstances .
Most of us know what a live performance sounds and feels like. And I also know that the majority of music released out there was not a recording of a live performance, but a multi session edit. So comparing a live performance with a studio session is kind of like comparing restaurant cooking to home cooking. You can taste the difference.
Even more important is that the sound from those Marshall amps and JBL multi speakers array is not going to sound the same in a living room as they do in a hall. So even if you went to a gig and the performers decided to come to your place with the same equipment and play the same music in your living room, it won't sound the same as the live session heard at the gig.
So with the live performance quote truly discredited, what are we left with exactly? Nothing more than a replica of the original.
Naughty Nigel
07-04-2014, 14:13
So with the live performance quote truly discredited, what are we left with exactly? Nothing more than a replica of the original.
As I said, "even the 'best' HiFi system can only provide a representation of the original sound".
My own live performances are choral; and are often unaccompanied, so the array of Marshall amplifiers doesn't really apply. Likewise, live organ music is not amplified, unless you are unfortunate enough to have an electronic instrument.
These sound sources present their own challenges to recording engineers, but as you say, most commercial recordings are stitched together from multiple sessions.
Even with a multi-channel system it is difficult to recreate the ambience of the original, so for me, the best 'viewpoint' (soundpoint?) is often just outside the open door of the listening room, and how close the sound is to the open door of the Song School. That is easy for me, as I am invariably late for choir practice! :)
Nigel
I've been told second-hand that the later 11L's came in from China boxed for $14 the pair. Add the slurp and they became £320pr inc VAT. They are a bit loose and sloppy, but not as bad as the pendulum swing now makes them out to be IMO.
The A400 could sound horrible into cheap gear, but used above it's station I remember one dem when it sounded fantastic :scratch: The Audiolab 8000A was the same. Early ones used with Linn K20 speaker cable sounded dead and totally bland. By the time we got to sell them, the casework had gone black (D series onwards), some internal tweaks had been done and thankfully, the K20 had been binned some years before. This integrated sounded far better and didn't disgrace itself at all (Chord Company interconnects were recommended at the time - mid to late 90's).
One suggestion from me (back on topic) - LINN Nexus and to a lesser extent, the Kaber. The Nexus was a total disaster of a speaker with hideously over-complex crossover. used with the then new Linn amps, this company reached a new deep low.
The Kaber was before its time in all honesty. The three way passive crossover allowed interference between the bass and mid drivers (not acoustically coupled) and in active form, the tweeter they used (an early ceramic dome) sounded horribly waspy with considerable 'hash' added. Retro fitting the later Keilidh tweeters sweetened the sound no end.
velocesprint
07-04-2014, 21:34
Best thing to do is forget about the Hi Fi and enjoy the music :eek:
Nigel -
The Pioneer A400 and original Quad 11Ls work superbly together and I would imagine that with the Philips CD player your system sounds excellent.
I had 11Ls for a long time and only recently sold them when I bought the Dynaudios. They spent their years coming in and out of my system and spent quite a bit of time not being used, but by far the best I ever got them sounding (or the A400) was with an A400 and a Rotel RCD965BX. Somehow those 3 pieces just worked together and made music. I still have the Rotel CD player and I've tried it in my present system, where it did not disgrace itself. I also still have a Philips CD840. Haven't heard that for some time but I remember it being more capable than quite a few of the more modern machines I've had.
Naughty Nigel
08-04-2014, 08:37
Nigel -
The Pioneer A400 and original Quad 11Ls work superbly together and I would imagine that with the Philips CD player your system sounds excellent.
I had 11Ls for a long time and only recently sold them when I bought the Dynaudios. They spent their years coming in and out of my system and spent quite a bit of time not being used, but by far the best I ever got them sounding (or the A400) was with an A400 and a Rotel RCD965BX. Somehow those 3 pieces just worked together and made music. I still have the Rotel CD player and I've tried it in my present system, where it did not disgrace itself. I also still have a Philips CD840. Haven't heard that for some time but I remember it being more capable than quite a few of the more modern machines I've had.
Thanks for the heads up about the Rotel RCD965BX. There seem to be a few going on fleabay at reasonable prices.
The Philips CD960 lives in my main system downstairs, alongside a Quad 44 preamp and FM4 tuner, driving a pair of Quad II power amps and 22L loudspeakers. I also have a pair of 'worked on' Celestion DL8 Series II's that sound very nice with this system, but they are in need of some attention at present, and will become a 'project' shortly. :)
The Quad 11L's live in my second system upstairs in my study, with the Pioneer A-400 and a Pioneer PD104 CD player, which I suspect is of a similar vintage to the Rotel, and sounds very respectable, although the zapper is missing! I tend to listen to this system all day when I am working at home, so it needs to be easy on the ear, so to speak.
I first heard the CD960 around 1986, when they were selling for about £1,200, and so settled for the CD650 instead, which I was more than happy with. However, the very day I bought the Celestion DL8's I came home to find that some little toe rag had broken in to my house and taken the CD650, along with the two or three pop CD's that I had at the time; but didn't touch my 100+ collection of classical CD's, or a case containing over £2,000 worth of camera gear. He had also missed the zapper, without which the CD650 was pretty much useless!
This meant I had a brand new pair of loudspeakers and no CD player to try them with, but the CD960 (and near identical Marantz CD94) had become 'end of line' by this time, and were being sold for £450, so I bought a CD960 with the insurance payout!
Happy days.
Nigel.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/museum/pics_v2.php?c=1&x=451&t=0&s=1&n=1
walpurgis
08-04-2014, 10:07
Best thing to do is forget about the Hi Fi and enjoy the music :eek:
Quite right! The music comes first. I've got quite a mountain of Hi-Fi gear 'cos I'm a bit of a tinkerer, but I could easily lose most of it and just keep a small system and enjoy the music just as much.
Attaching importance to the way one's gear might be perceived by others is pointless. There is no status in Hi-Fi (despite what some might like to think). Use whatever you like.
Naughty Nigel
08-04-2014, 10:30
Quite right! The music comes first. I've got quite a mountain of Hi-Fi gear 'cos I'm a bit of a tinkerer, but I could easily lose most of it and just keep a small system and enjoy the music just as much.
Attaching importance to the way one's gear might be perceived by others is pointless. There is no status in Hi-Fi (despite what some might like to think). Use whatever you like.
Quite right. I can enjoy listening to the car radio or a portable just as much as a full system. It just depends what you are listening to, where, when, and what mood you happen to be in.
What about those who enjoy listening to a radio at work? Should we take away that pleasure because it doesn't conform to our expectations of HiFi equipment?
Nigel.
istari_knight
08-04-2014, 10:48
Speak for yourselves :lol:
Playing with different gear is a completely separate hobby for me... Whats this "music" you speak of ?
walpurgis
08-04-2014, 11:22
Speak for yourselves :lol:
Playing with different gear is a completely separate hobby for me... Whats this "music" you speak of ?
"music" is the bit that gets in the way when you'd sooner be brandishing your soldering iron! :)
istari_knight
08-04-2014, 11:28
Aha, I've set up a work bench in with the hifi so I can listen & work :eyebrows:
Only mishap so far is knocking over an ultrasonic cleaner full of cleaning solution whilst getting carried away rocking out :doh: ... Maybe I should get back in the shed ?!
Floyddroid
24-04-2014, 22:08
Kef Carlton speakers
Infinity Black Widow tone arm
Musical Fidelity A1001 amp
Linn Kaber speakers
Audio Technica OC7 cartridge
Audio Technica OC7 cartridge
Harsh! I had one for a while and it was pretty good. It was the Roksan Xerxes it was running in that let the side down with its poor build quality and sagging top deck.
walpurgis
24-04-2014, 22:19
Infinity Black Widow tone arm
Not tried the others, but the Black Widow arm is a quality product. It used to get slated when the fashion for high quality cartridges turned towards lower compliance MCs, but due to its very low mass, the Infinity arm is a superb match to older ultra high compliance fixed coil cartridges like the seventies ADCs and Empires for instance.
Not tried the others, but the Black Widow arm is a quality product. It used to get slated when the fashion for high quality cartridges turned towards lower compliance MCs, but due to its very low mass, the Infinity arm is a superb match to older ultra high compliance fixed coil cartridges like the seventies ADCs and Empires for instance.
+1
The effective mass of the Black Widow arm is only 3g. I don't know of any arms having a lower effective mass (apart from the useless Transcriptors Vestigal (sic) design). Thus the Black Widow is one of the few arms that can cope with the absurdly high compliance (>50cu) of the ADC 25 cartridge (itself one of the best fixed-coil cartridges designed). The only other arms that can cope with these high compliance cartridges, are the Breuer designs and perhaps the SME fixed headshell 3009 improved arm.
Surprisingly, the Decca Mk. V and VI cartridges also work very well in the Black Widow arm.
Where've ya been, Bazza? You've been missed! :)
Marco.
Where've ya been, Bazza? You've been missed! :)
Marco.
Mainland Greece, touring the sites of antiquity (Delphi, Thermopylai, Olympia, Epidavros etc.).
I have been keeping an eye on the Forum however but nothing has fired me to respond, although I am following a certain 44 page 'soap opera' with a some amusement.
Cheers
Arf! :D
I'd be lying if I said that I didn't agree ;)
Marco.
P.S Hope you had a nice time in Greece. Retsina is not entirely to my taste, although I suspect that some of the local reds and crisp white wines would be rather quaffable!
julesd68
25-04-2014, 14:18
Mainland Greece, touring the sites of antiquity (Delphi, Thermopylai, Olympia, Epidavros etc.).
Hope you had a great time Barry - I have been to and enjoyed all those wonderful sites. Returning for the annual pilgramage to the in-laws this summer ...
Retsina is not entirely to my taste, although I suspect that some of the local reds and crisp white wines would be rather quaffable!
You would be spot on there Marco!! Retsina from a bottle is a very hit and miss affair, but if you get to sample some well-made 'barrel' retsina from a village, well that's a different matter.
Local reds and whites can also be more than quaffable - you generally get a jug of the stuff from a barrel. There are also some superb 'high-end' wines made in Greece, often at prices that are beyond me though.
Sorry for the thread-drift ...
walpurgis
25-04-2014, 14:51
I am following a certain 44 page 'soap opera' with a some amusement.
I've given up looking at that. It just goes on and on! :rolleyes:
I have been keeping an eye on the Forum however but nothing has fired me to respond, although I am following a certain 44 page 'soap opera' with a some amusement.
Ditto and best description so far Barry, it is all rather amusing/bemusing ;)
Greece, I love it but not been for a few years now, glad you enjoyed your break (I'm assuming you did?) I miss a real Greek Gyros . . . yum yum.
TTFN its wine o'clock.
[QUOTE=Barry;545396]Mainland Greece, touring the sites of antiquity (Delphi, Thermopylai, Olympia, Epidavros etc.).
:thumbsup:
icehockeyboy
26-04-2014, 14:26
Why has no one mentioned Amstrad?
I used to sell the stuff in the 70's, Saturday we'd shift 20 or 30 amps...ic 2000 I think they were, and on Monday 75% of them came back faulty.
Also Arcam Alpha 5 Plus, wooly and undetailed like you had cotton wool in your ears.
And of course Bland N Dull wires ( well, most of them that is)
I disagree about the Quad speakers, I had a set of 22L's, and after my PMC FB1+'s had a pair of 22 L2's.
Nothing wrong with either of them.
jandl100
27-04-2014, 06:37
Some of my least fave kit ...
- Tannoy dual concentric speakers (with the sole exception among the many I have heard of RFC Fidelios), each model seems to irritate me differently :eyebrows:
- Pretty much any and all (cone) single driver speakers that I've heard. Baby/bathwater syndrome.
- Linn Unidisk universal player - mind numbingly boring and intensely irritating - I've never had another component that made me so angry :steam:! - it just bopped lightly along mindlessly, I'd rather listen to a basic car radio
- Klipsch Heresy 2. More coloured than a coloured thing.
- Naim Nait 3 amp - screeeech :eek:
There, have I offended everyone by now? :lol:
Some of my least fave kit ...
- Tannoy dual concentric speakers (with the sole exception among the many I have heard of RFC Fidelios), each model seems to irritate me differently :eyebrows:
- Pretty much any and all (cone) single driver speakers that I've heard. Baby/bathwater syndrome.
- Linn Unidisk universal player - mind numbingly boring and intensely irritating - I've never had another component that made me so angry :steam:! - it just bopped lightly along mindlessly, I'd rather listen to a basic car radio
- Klipsch Heresy 2. More coloured than a coloured thing.
- Naim Nait 3 amp - screeeech :eek:
There, have I offended everyone by now? :lol:
You missed out Technics turntables; DJ decks that need a fortune spent on them to make them not quite hifi.
walpurgis
27-04-2014, 10:30
You missed out Technics turntables; DJ decks that need a fortune spent on them to make them not quite hifi.
My God, what have you said?!! The AOS Techie mafia will be hunting you down now!!! :lol:
jandl100
27-04-2014, 10:58
You missed out Technics turntables; DJ decks that need a fortune spent on them to make them not quite hifi.
Ah, but I like those DJ decks Techie turntables. :)
The moment anyone says DJ deck (ooh, I'm so hurt), I go glazy eyed and move on.
Anyone remember Rank Domus speakers? :spew:
walpurgis
27-04-2014, 11:27
Anyone remember Rank Domus speakers? :spew:
Yes, I remember when they came out. There was a big display on the Rotel stand at a Hi-Fi show. Can't say I recall the sound though. The drive units looked OK, Spanish I believe.
walpurgis
04-09-2016, 19:08
Just rummaging through some of my old threads and thought I revive this one for a bit of fun.
Anybody got some new contenders?
I'll throw Eagle International and Keletron speakers in. Their stuff worked, but was generally pretty undistinguished in every other way.
How about 'Realistic', items sold through the Tandy/Radioshack store I believe?
Although I have not heard any of the following, so cannot really comment of their performance, I would have avoided anything made by Alba, Bush, BSR or Sinclair
Arkless Electronics
04-09-2016, 19:18
defining high end is probably more difficult.... Price? performance? originality? circuit design? styling? weight!? there is plenty of stuff of ancient design, basic, nowt special in performance, but built with 1/2" thick front panels, designer phono sockets etc which costs a fortune but it's meh...
walpurgis
04-09-2016, 19:33
How about 'Realistic', items sold through the Tandy/Radioshack store I believe?
Although I have not heard any of the following, so cannot really comment of their performance, I would have avoided anything made by Alba, Bush, BSR or Sinclair
Yes. Generally I'd agree about 'Realistic' gear. Not bad as such, but pretty run of the mill.
I didn't like the others either apart from Alba. Their amps were budget, but well enough made and had a reputation for decent sound. On a par with Metrosound in my opinion.
Ah yes, 'Metrosound' - I had forgotten about them!
They also made a large bookshelf speaker with an electrostatic tweeter I believe. Did anyone hear them?
walpurgis
04-09-2016, 19:48
They also made a large bookshelf speaker with an electrostatic tweeter I believe. Did anyone hear them?
I did. But can't remember what they sounded like :). There were two versions, a short one and a taller one.
SteveTheShadow
06-09-2016, 21:38
Linn K9
Linn Mk1 Akito with sticky bearings.
Linn Intek Amp.
Eagle SE5 headphones.
Cecil Watts Dust Bug - pre echo wasn't an adequate description :lol:
Oh and Metrosound makes it real doncha know.
I had a Redifusion (can't recall the spelling) cassette deck....it was pants.
walpurgis
06-09-2016, 23:01
I had a Redifusion (can't recall the spelling) cassette deck....it was pants.
In my opinion ALL cassette decks were "pants"! :sofa:
(waiting for Nakamichi and Teac owners to attack now :eek: ------------ mind you, I was far happier with my MiniDisc deck than any Cassette device)
How about 'Realistic', items sold through the Tandy/Radioshack store I believe?
Although I have not heard any of the following, so cannot really comment of their performance, I would have avoided anything made by Alba, Bush, BSR or Sinclair
That's Hilarious ! There are Legions of geriatric 'Muricans who view Realistic bumph as better than Sex.. As if any could remember.
Oh yes. Hated those!
I was going to invite you to tea but I'm very hurt now lol
walpurgis
06-09-2016, 23:30
I was going to invite you to tea but I'm very hurt now lol
I have to be honest, I've never heard SBLs sounding good to me. But then, it was a fair old while ago on Naim demos and I didn't like the amps anyway. Maybe on the end of big Audio Research or Krell amps they'd be better (they'd have to be really :D).
You can still invite me to tea though, but I'm very fussy about how it's made :).
I have to be honest, I've never heard SBLs sounding good to me. But then, it was a fair old while ago on Naim demos and I didn't like the amps anyway. Maybe on the end of big Audio Research or Krell amps they'd be better (they'd have to be really :D).
You can still invite me to tea though, but I'm very fussy about how it's made :).
I ran my first pair with the classic Naim amp set up but this new pair with a Musical Fidelity A3. The weighty nature of the amp's output suits the SBLs well
rigger67
07-09-2016, 06:53
Solavox speakers, sold through Comet.
Quite a lot of box for the money and I thought they went very nicely with my second-hand Pioneer PL-12D (probably fifth-hand in reality) and beefy Technics receiver. I think mine cost £40 new.
I was 17.
Life was simple and good ...
At 14 I bought my first ghetto-blaster (an Aiwa) based on which one had the sexiest "soft-opening" door mechanism .. again, from Comet : £35 :)
We've all heard the overused term 'High End' in relation to Hi-Fi, but what about the bottom end? Over the years there have been some real Audio Clunkers. I call them that, as many just can't even be described as proper Hi-Fi. I'll miss out a few obvious names, but start the ball rolling with a few of what I regard as horrors:
BSR MP60 turntable
Garrard 2025 turntable
Decca Deram ceramic cartridge (it may well have been the best ceramic, but it was still awful)
Wharfedale Denton 2 and Linton 2 speakers
Goodmans Minister speakers
Anything with Tensai written on it
Goldring GL85
Transcriptors Fluid Arm
DIN plugs
Things with 'Control One' written on them
Just how many of these things have you actually used, let alone owned?
BSR MP60's - fine with cheap ADC cartridges but ran slightly fast, even more than an old Rega. The better HT70 was a goodie cheapie though
HOW DARE YOU slag off the Garrard 2025! The better ceramics (KS41C/3559 and BSR SC11/12M and 9TA-HC) actually have a directness in sound that's highly engaging, if a but awry in terms of absolute fidelity. The Garrard Autoslim mechanism is exceptionally reliable until the grease turns to glue and was very little changed from the early 60's to the mid 70's in the very last SP25/125SB models - detail mods rather than re-designs I remember.
The Deram just needs properly loading I reckon, just like all ceramic cartridges.
I own and have extensively used Denton's (W20 model). I'll grant the Denton and Linton 2 replacements were a bit grim in comparison.
I have vague memories of the Ministers, so pass on further comment, but not sure they were truly awful though..
Tensai? Don't know but weren't they rebadged 'Decca' electronics with a sort of far eastern sounding name?
And what's wrong with a GL85 exactly? Good tonearm, but a slightly weak DC motor perhaps?
The Fluid Arm was amazing with the recommended high compliance ADC and Empire cartridges. Yes, I remember it forst time round as with all of the above. VETY few tonearms can properly support an ADC25/26/10E IV/XLM I but the Fluid Arm did and they sounded great I remember, before the opposite compliance MC craze began a few years later.
DIN plugs were fine for end users not into making up thick wanky wires and Naim still use them - maybe I shouldn't defend them then ;)
A poster here bought some Control Ones very recently for a study system and is using them to good effect with a 'Mini 1' amp. I don't like tiny boxes much, but that's personal experience rather than slagging off the product just because it's small. Hundreds/thousands of pairs around, often in AV systems I believe.
I don't think much expensive gear is proper Hifi either, as the gear becomes too narrow in ability. Improve dynamics and colouration suffers. get a very natural acoustic tone and dynamics goes out of the window. Huge Hifi is for huge egos with loads of money and huge rooms to fill in my experience. Nothing to do with a 'better' sound.
Gawd, I'm in a bad mood today :(
Just how many of these things have you actually used, let alone owned?
BSR MP60's - fine with cheap ADC cartridges but ran slightly fast, even more than an old Rega. The better HT70 was a goodie cheapie though
HOW DARE YOU slag off the Garrard 2025! The better ceramics (KS41C/3559 and BSR SC11/12M and 9TA-HC) actually have a directness in sound that's highly engaging, if a but awry in terms of absolute fidelity. The Garrard Autoslim mechanism is exceptionally reliable until the grease turns to glue and was very little changed from the early 60's to the mid 70's in the very last SP25/125SB models - detail mods rather than re-designs I remember.
The Deram just needs properly loading I reckon, just like all ceramic cartridges.
I own and have extensively used Denton's (W20 model). I'll grant the Denton and Linton 2 replacements were a bit grim in comparison.
I have vague memories of the Ministers, so pass on further comment, but not sure they were truly awful though..
Tensai? Don't know but weren't they rebadged 'Decca' electronics with a sort of far eastern sounding name?
And what's wrong with a GL85 exactly? Good tonearm, but a slightly weak DC motor perhaps?
The Fluid Arm was amazing with the recommended high compliance ADC and Empire cartridges. Yes, I remember it forst time round as with all of the above. VETY few tonearms can properly support an ADC25/26/10E IV/XLM I but the Fluid Arm did and they sounded great I remember, before the opposite compliance MC craze began a few years later.
DIN plugs were fine for end users not into making up thick wanky wires and Naim still use them - maybe I shouldn't defend them then ;)
A poster here bought some Control Ones very recently for a study system and is using them to good effect with a 'Mini 1' amp. I don't like tiny boxes much, but that's personal experience rather than slagging off the product just because it's small. Hundreds/thousands of pairs around, often in AV systems I believe.
I don't think much expensive gear is proper Hifi either, as the gear becomes too narrow in ability. Improve dynamics and colouration suffers. get a very natural acoustic tone and dynamics goes out of the window. Huge Hifi is for huge egos with loads of money and huge rooms to fill in my experience. Nothing to do with a 'better' sound.
Gawd, I'm in a bad mood today :(
:lol:
Shoot from the hip Dave - I always enjoy reading of your experiences with hi-fi kit!
I'm not familiar with any of the above, but can well believe the Transcriptor's 'Fluid Arm' would be an excellent match with the ADC 25/26. Transcriptor did make one hopeless arm however - the 'Vestigal' (sic) bi-axis arm: talk about warp-wow!
Firebottle
07-09-2016, 11:17
Wasn't Tensai the name that Dixons used on their far eastern kit, when a far eastern or Japanese name supposedly suggested a bit of quality?
:doh:
Oh - enjoyable post Dave :eyebrows:
Wasn't Tensai the name that Dixons used on their far eastern kit, when a far eastern or Japanese name supposedly suggested a bit of quality?
:doh:
Oh - enjoyable post Dave :eyebrows:
No, Dixons fake jap brand was Matsui. Tensai was sold in Comet, and occasionally Richer Sounds.
rigger67
07-09-2016, 11:25
No, Dixons fake jap brand was Matsui.
I've got a Matsui NICAM VHS recorder and it's still going strong after twenty-odd years :lol::lol::lol:
To the chant of Bansai ;)
:lol:
Shoot from the hip Dave - I always enjoy reading of your experiences with hi-fi kit!
I'm not familiar with any of the above, but can well believe the Transcriptor's 'Fluid Arm' would be an excellent match with the ADC 25/26. Transcriptor did make one hopeless arm however - the 'Vestigal' (sic) bi-axis arm: talk about warp-wow!
Oh yeah....... :lol:
PLEASE CHAPS - Don't take me very seriously. I can't be arsed to keep putting smileys in all the time and *some* old crap stuff can actually perform very well when you're not expecting anything from it. It's the other end when expectations and costs are frighteningly high and the delivered result is so wanting that I really object to.
Oh, and be warned. I'm fast approaching my 60th birthday and if I got crabby at my 50th, you lot ain't seen nothing yet - one reason why I'm not posting on a certain other forum right now, 'cos I'd rather come and go of my own bloody choosing and not be banned for life ;)
rigger67
07-09-2016, 11:53
To the chant of Bansai ;)
You've got me thinking about that weird C4 TV show, Banzai .. remember Mr Shake Hands ??
9BVghzF1DNk
:rfl:
walpurgis
07-09-2016, 12:13
Just how many of these things have you actually used, let alone owned?(
I've owned and used all of them apart from the Control One's, which I have heard.
Some of these items, several times over.
By the way, the GL85 was prone to the lightweight platter warping, it cost more than the GL75/78 and was not as good. And the Fluid Arm is virtually unusable with anything other than the high compliance ADCs (and the odd vintage Empire and Shure). It may have fluid damping, but it's too resonant for low compliance carts. The headshell is flimsy and very resonant (much like the rest of the arm) and the arm lift is a right pain in the arse.
You might be becoming a grumpy old git Dave, but I'm an even older grumpy old git. So There!! :D
southall-1998
07-09-2016, 13:43
I see a remake of the ''grumpier old men'' coming to our big screens soon :D
S.
I see a remake of the ''grumpier old men'' coming to our big screens soon :D
S.
Grumpiness is something that needs many years to perfect Shane, I practice a lot :argument:
I've owned and used all of them apart from the Control One's, which I have heard.
Some of these items, several times over.
By the way, the GL85 was prone to the lightweight platter warping, it cost more than the GL75/78 and was not as good. And the Fluid Arm is virtually unusable with anything other than the high compliance ADCs (and the odd vintage Empire and Shure). It may have fluid damping, but it's too resonant for low compliance carts. The headshell is flimsy and very resonant (much like the rest of the arm) and the arm lift is a right pain in the arse.
You might be becoming a grumpy old git Dave, but I'm an even older grumpy old git. So There!! :D
Again, old memories of the GL85 only when it was new and before these issues came to light. I believe the arm was based on a separate one they once marketed, I think before the L75, using races for vertical motion instead of the dreaded V blocks.
Anyway, I defend the Garrard Autoslims to the very end. 'Course they're not Hifi and even the SP25's were marginal even in the mid 60's, but they got loads of people of my age and slightly older started down the winding road in the late 60's and pre PL-12D era and, with a damned good service and an AT95E or Stanton 500v3, they're doing the same today if the VE Garrard room is anything to go by.. Seized trip pawls, shiny idlers with no grip, gummed up mechanisms............
Martyn Miles
07-09-2016, 18:29
I've owned and used all of them apart from the Control One's, which I have heard.
Some of these items, several times over.
By the way, the GL85 was prone to the lightweight platter warping, it cost more than the GL75/78 and was not as good. And the Fluid Arm is virtually unusable with anything other than the high compliance ADCs (and the odd vintage Empire and Shure). It may have fluid damping, but it's too resonant for low compliance carts. The headshell is flimsy and very resonant (much like the rest of the arm) and the arm lift is a right pain in the arse.
You might be becoming a grumpy old git Dave, but I'm an even older grumpy old git. So There!! :D
Underrated speakers, the Control 1s.
I once had a pair running from a Sony ST88/TA88 combination.
Surprisingly good on Radio 3...
I still have a pair ( in their original box ) for outside work.
Martyn.
Just had some JBL Control 1 as my mains last week, just for fun and reaserch. They are miraculous for the size and money at gentle levels, but if you push them at all they lose it big time.
I use JBL Control 1s with my PC and they really do a great job. As long as you don't want to shatter your windows with sound they are very good.
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