View Full Version : Hello to a civilised forum
I've read the AoS forum a fair bit and have finally properly joined. Thanks for having me.
I'm fairly new to Hi Fi, but have spent an enthusiastic year or so putting together my first proper system. All SS. Roksan Darius stand-mount speakers via Alchemist Forseti Pre and a Parasound A21 power. I use an Alchemist Kraken CD player (2 box) and an Inspire-Rega TT heavily tweaked. And a Haden Boardman valve pre phono.
I'm big on isolation, so have experimented a lot with various bits of kit, and have made my own granite rack, all fully floating. Fun. And cheap.
I stream through Sonus, but my CD is nearly always better, and first love is always vinyl.
I hope I can contribute to the forum. Thank you. Richard
Welcome to AoS Richard, what sort of music do you enjoy listening to? ;)
Welcome to AoS Richard, what sort of music do you enjoy listening to? ;)
Hello Synsei. If I say 'all sorts' it sounds like a cop-out, doesn't it, but it's honestly true. Although I will have a lot of Music For Pleasure and Monte Python albums for sale at some point… :eek:They do take up a lot of space! I mention this just to make the point that I don't listen to 'everything'. The last line of Dirty Harry, as uttered by Clint, says it all: "Every man should know his limitations."
Hello Richard. Is your surname Brown by any chance? (Knees up....? I'll get me coat)
Hello Richard and welcome to AoS. That Parasound is a keeper!
Ali Tait
01-04-2014, 06:46
Hi, that's a pretty good first system.
Thanks gents for all your kind messages. I much appreciate it. The 'knees up' name comes from my motorcycling forum input. Everyone banging on about getting their knee-down the whole time… Well, mine are up. When 'biking. And dancing. And stuff.
Can someone tell me why I can't send a PM to anyone? I would like to reply to a classified advert and have read the forum rules but seem to be missing something.
Many thanks. Richard
And Martin, I agree about the Parasound. Thank you. I blew up my Avondale S100 and was recommended the Parasound as more suitable for driving my Darius. It's a fabulous thing. Really love it. Just need the Ayre K-5 xe MP to match it now… but that's a long way off.
Think you need 5+ posts before you can PM? (someone more savvy than me will be along it a bit)
Sounds good to me, Roy. And this one is my fifth. Thanks for the steer! R
The Parasound A21 is good and in some ways great. The first time one hit my Apogees I had to have one. I kept it for a few months and ultimately realised whilst it did some incredible things, and I really do mean quite astonishing things with my speakers, the most listenable long term option was the valve amps I use. A lot more expensive, those, though.
Enjoy:)
Strange this, as I've now done 6 posts and still can't PM and I've looked seemingly everywhere on the site rules and can't see any info. Am I being dim….?
Very interesting, Justin. My listening experience is very 'at the gig' and 'full-on' with the Darius. I also use two 400W sub-woofers. Together it's as SS as you can get, I recon. I love the A21's detail and effortlessness and, like you say, its cost effectiveness. To say nothing of its super build quality. The valve journey will come later for me, I'm sure….
The Parasound A21 is good and in some ways great. The first time one hit my Apogees I had to have one. I kept it for a few months and ultimately realised whilst it did some incredible things, and I really do mean quite astonishing things with my speakers, the most listenable long term option was the valve amps I use. A lot more expensive, those, though.
Enjoy:)
The Parasound A21 is good and in some ways great. The first time one hit my Apogees I had to have one. I kept it for a few months and ultimately realised whilst it did some incredible things, and I really do mean quite astonishing things with my speakers, the most listenable long term option was the valve amps I use. A lot more expensive, those, though.
Enjoy:)
Apogees and the Darius dip similarly low, too, I should imagine.
walpurgis
03-04-2014, 23:08
Strange this, as I've now done 6 posts and still can't PM and I've looked seemingly everywhere on the site rules and can't see any info. Am I being dim….?
Think you may have to do a few more posts Richard. Or, maybe there's a time constraint. But I'm not aware of one.
PM me if you get PMs working! :D
Think you may have to do a few more posts Richard. Or, maybe there's a time constraint. But I'm not aware of one.
PM me if you get PMs working! :D
Thanks Geoff. Will do! R
Apogees and the Darius dip similarly low, too, I should imagine.
Not looked up the Darius but the Duetta is a very flat 4 Ohms across the entire FR.
The A21 worked best with an EAR 868PL as a pre - which cost massively more than the A21. TBH though I'm sure a much cheaper valve pre could have the same or better effect. I actually rate the Chinese Cayin pre I run now above the EAR, especially with the valves I've just dumped in it. So if you want to get a flavour of valves to de-SS the system a bit, pick up a good 2nd hand valve pre just to experiment? You might like it, you might not, but defo worth a try if you haven't already.
Not looked up the Darius but the Duetta is a very flat 4 Ohms across the entire FR.
The A21 worked best with an EAR 868PL as a pre - which cost massively more than the A21. TBH though I'm sure a much cheaper valve pre could have the same or better effect. I actually rate the Chinese Cayin pre I run now above the EAR, especially with the valves I've just dumped in it. So if you want to get a flavour of valves to de-SS the system a bit, pick up a good 2nd hand valve pre just to experiment? You might like it, you might not, but defo worth a try if you haven't already.
I hear what you say, and have very nearly gone the Trilogy route twice now, having missed a super bargain last year. Instead I have a valve pre phono and will be using a valve buffered DAC, through which my cd and Sonos will route. I felt that was the next stage in my evolution, partly because I love my Forseti so much I don't want rid of it. And I can't keep everything!
Which 'big valve monos' do you use now…? If I may ask?
And the Darius run 3.8-4Ohms, but dip lower at the X-over point. R
Ah! I can PM now! Thanks for everyone's advice there! R
Which 'big valve monos' do you use now…? If I may ask?
See my profile.
My goodness. Some serious gear there. Oddly your Profile wasn;t showing info for me earlier… But now it is. So, I'm up to speed with full access, it seems. Tremendous system you have. Thank you for your advice. R
Serious old style kit - but it brings a freaking serious smile with it:)
Rush2112
06-04-2014, 18:23
Well guys I've taken a look call me old fashioned call me a dinosaur but it's a black DJ deck that's been pimped ! It's not an evolution of an audiophile design like the myriad of mods developed for an LP12 by Linn and countless others including people who didn't even make turntables !
I think you may have all been over come by the heady vapour of record cleaning fluid ! The proof is in the listening so until then I will stick with the belt is best as my old QL A7 was no match for an AR Legend all those years ago !
The Grand Wazoo
06-04-2014, 18:38
Brace yourself Mark - it's coming!
jandl100
06-04-2014, 19:03
Ah, Parasound Halo A21 - I think I sparked the first interest here for that amp. :)
I kept the dang thing for 18 happy months, which is a looooooong time for a boxswapper like me!
Welcome to AOS, Richard!
Well guys I've taken a look call me old fashioned call me a dinosaur but it's a black DJ deck that's been pimped ! It's not an evolution of an audiophile design like the myriad of mods developed for an LP12 by Linn and countless others including people who didn't even make turntables !
I think you may have all been over come by the heady vapour of record cleaning fluid ! The proof is in the listening so until then I will stick with the belt is best as my old QL A7 was no match for an AR Legend all those years ago !
I'd hang onto that Sharks tale as if your life depended on it, it's name is Marco incidentally... ;)
Well guys I've taken a look call me old fashioned call me a dinosaur but it's a black DJ deck that's been pimped ! It's not an evolution of an audiophile design like the myriad of mods developed for an LP12 by Linn and countless others including people who didn't even make turntables !
S'ok, some delusions are harder to cure than others! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I will stick with the belt is best as my old QL A7 was no match for an AR Legend all those years ago !
:(
S'ok, some delusions are harder to cure than others! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I take it someone bad mouthed MacGuyver :lol:
Ah, Parasound Halo A21 - I think I sparked the first interest here for that amp. :)
I kept the dang thing for 18 happy months, which is a looooooong time for a boxswapper like me!
Welcome to AOS, Richard!
Tis true, Jerry. And I'm super-grateful for all your recommendations because it's a wonderful thing. Although it was actually your mate Paul Coupe at RFC who put me on to the A21 initially (pointing me in your direction) when we found that the desired Albarrys weren't powerful enough to comfortably drive my Darius speakers. Paul had invested a huge amount of time repairing the Darius for me - a very challenging task for all kinds of reasons. They are very unconventional, not least because the B200 drivers were modified by Touraj Moghaddam when new and the X-over design was bizarre and complex. Touraj is now Vertere, of course, and he's got the speakers now, doing his mods. Can't wait for their return… They were very special before and should be even more so when I finally get them back. Anyway, the A21 is my system's heart and I love it. Thank you!
Rush2112
18-05-2014, 19:56
Touraj Moghaddam a gifted designer for us vinyl junkies the Roksan Xerxes Artimiz and Shiraz hold fond memories.
Touraj can keep his poxy Xerxes, which gave me nothing but trouble with that sagging top plate, which eventually I could not adjust out with the suspension settings. I eventually sold it off in disgust having paid considerably for it and the subsequent Mk. II power supply.
You may need to readjust your horizons as my modded Technics leaves it for dead in sound quality.
Rush2112
21-05-2014, 19:13
What is this obsession for modified DJ decks ! I never owned a Xerxes but heard a few variants and never found them irritating ! However, I never had to live with one long term either. Now as for turntables that made an impression there are many. Linn LP 12, Townsend Rock, Void, Origin Live, Alphason Sonata, Kuzma Stabi, SME, Gyrodec, Oracle, Nottingham Analogue, Wilson Benesch, VPI. Rega. QT and last but not least Pink Triangle to name but a few! Now I've never heard a 1210 mk 5 or one modified and I dare say it would give a couple of those above a run for their money but there's a majority of the above that I am sure would leave it for dead ! Certainly I listened to many 1200's and found them versatile, robust and competent but never jaw dropping!
Floyddroid
21-05-2014, 19:37
Great to have you here. This is without doubt one of the best forums on the net.
I've read the AoS forum a fair bit and have finally properly joined. Thanks for having me.
I'm fairly new to Hi Fi, but have spent an enthusiastic year or so putting together my first proper system. All SS. Roksan Darius stand-mount speakers via Alchemist Forseti Pre and a Parasound A21 power. I use an Alchemist Kraken CD player (2 box) and an Inspire-Rega TT heavily tweaked. And a Haden Boardman valve pre phono.
I'm big on isolation, so have experimented a lot with various bits of kit, and have made my own granite rack, all fully floating. Fun. And cheap.
I stream through Sonus, but my CD is nearly always better, and first love is always vinyl.
I hope I can contribute to the forum. Thank you. Richard
Now I've never heard a 1210 mk 5 or one modified and I dare say it would give a couple of those above a run for their money but there's a majority of the above that I am sure would leave it for dead !
If you've 'never heard' one then how can you be 'sure' what will 'leave it for dead'? And enough with the DJ deck crap. It has been well established that the 1210 line were devised for audiophile and professional use and only later taken up by DJs.
Now I've never heard a 1210 mk 5 or one modified and I dare say it would give a couple of those above a run for their money but there's a majority of the above that I am sure would leave it for dead !
You will get more than a few knickers in a twist with a comment like that on AOS! I hope you do get the chance to hear a fully modded 1200 /1210 some time. You clearly have a vast experience with spinners and I for one would appreciate your input. A modded 1210 will have superlative speed stability, and the weaknesses can all be addressed by an amateur - I know because I am one. The platter, suspension, wiring, tonearm, bearing and even the power supply can all be done at home. When I joined AOS I had no idea this was a 'Techie' forum. I got converted to the new faith, renounced my previous ways (a Marantz TT15), went with a 1210 and do not regret it.
walpurgis
21-05-2014, 21:36
Nothing wrong with having a modified DJ deck! :)
DJ deck?? :spank: :spank:
;)
Marco.
walpurgis
21-05-2014, 22:08
Ouch, pack it in! :eyebrows:
Nothing wrong with having a modified DJ deck!
Agreed - there isn't. But there is a tendency in people who are being dismissive to use it as a pejorative.
Rush2112
22-05-2014, 19:21
Hey that's life ! One persons Hi-Fi is another persons Lo-Fi, at 15 I wanted a Garrard SP25 a Trio amp and a second hand pair of Tannoy speakers my idea of Hi-Fi but my dad insisted on a Bush music centre his idea of Hi-Fi in truth neither were really Hi-Fi !
However, if you set out to build a High Fidelity product you set about trying to build something to the highest possible standard in the price bracket for your product. If that product then requires the user to modify it's parts in order to yield the best from it then it questions how good the original design was or what the expectations were of the market it was aimed at.
The DJ has far different requirements to the audiophile I know many DJ's who consider the 1200/1210 as the best available, their first and only choice. However, as yet I haven't met a DJ with a Gyrodec or a Linn etc., in a club !
So for me it's horses for courses, get the best out of something absolutely, the SL 1200 was of course a high fidelity design it's particular strengths of quick start up and speed stability combined with speed adjustment and low resonance made it an ideal night club deck and a easy deck to develop the skills of scratching! By comparison these are not on the whole the design strengths of the list of turntables regarded as the great hi-fi turntables so as I say it's horses for courses and get the best out if something by all means but if you put super unleaded in a Dacia it won't turn it into a Focus RS or a Focus RS into a Porsche. The law of diminishing returns probably applies less to the Technics than it does to a Linn so as a Technics owner you a clearly a winner.
walpurgis
22-05-2014, 23:45
The law of diminishing returns probably applies less to the Technics than it does to a Linn so as a Technics owner you are clearly a winner.
Very true I'd say. A top notch Linn will not give you that much change out of ten grand if you buy all the posh bits available (you can spend even more). A Techie can meet serious expectations for less than a quarter of that. Yes you do have to spend a bit of dosh, although even in stock trim it's still a decent TT.
StanleyB
23-05-2014, 05:43
The DJ has far different requirements to the audiophile I know many DJ's who consider the 1200/1210 as the best available, their first and only choice. However, as yet I haven't met a DJ with a Gyrodec or a Linn etc., in a club !
The club DJ might consider the 1210 to be the best but the radio DJ would give that vote to a SP10.
Rush2112
28-05-2014, 22:51
Hi Peter. As the owner of Matrix 805's for many years. when it was time to change it was a difficult decision as you are loathed to give up the assets of a great small monitor to gain that missing bass! Along the way I upgraded the B&W supplied 6th order bass alignment filter with a bespoke unit, which improved the bass significantly. Now as to subwoofers well the 805's were replaced with Sonus Faber Electa Amators and a Gravis Subwoofer ! Had I the room for Martin Logan's or Wilson's then maybe I would agree with the idea that bigger / full range is better but having tried numerous floor standing speakers including, 803's, 804's and the like my general impression was that gains were less than losses so back to small speakers and a sub it was and still is. Until the lottery comes up and I have room and funds for Martin Logan CLS !
Hi Peter...
Peter - who he? :scratch:
Hi Mark,
Let's just say that you've got a LOT to learn about the sonic capabilities of a judiciously modified SL-1200 or 1210. In that respect, if you ever feel inclined to be suitably educated, I'll gladly bring mine to Lincoln, where you can compare it to whatever T/T (at any price), in your system, you think is superior - and then use YOUR ears to decide what the outcome of that is.
That's a genuine offer, btw! :)
Marco.
Rush2112
30-05-2014, 17:18
Hi Marco
I don't doubt your offer or my ears for that matter !
Now I have no doubt the 1200 / 1210 has it's attributes and with mods is a capable performer no doubt above the level expected at that price. My point is there are a number of fine turntables new and second hand capable of exceptional performance and quite possible in the case of a second hand Michell or Linn etc at less cost than you might expect.
So the point is for the wider audience is take a look at all the possibilities not just the current trend or flavour of the month.
I have owned 6 turntables in the last 30 years one was even Japanese, direct drive and semi automatic too ! Oh God the heresy !
( I am still wearing the cilice for my sins)
I have seriously listened to at home or in friends systems another 8 or so turntables.
So to those new to analogue decks I say get out and listen to as many decks as you can before following one well trodden or espoused path!
Happy listening !
Hi Mark,
I've got no problem with any of that. So what about my offer? Are you curious about hearing, first hand, what 'all the fuss is about', in reference to judiciously modified SL-1200 and 1210s?
I can assure you that there is much more to their popularity here than 'flavour of the month'. If so, that month has been going on for YEARS!! :D
Give it a go (I don't mind travelling), and afterwards you'll be rather better informed about them, and thus your opinion on the subject will carry more weight. Ask your friends to come too and bring with them whatever T/Ts they want, as part of the bake-off. What have you got to lose? :)
Marco.
StanleyB
30-05-2014, 18:14
Now I have no doubt the 1200 / 1210 has it's attributes and with mods is a capable performer no doubt above the level expected at that price. My point is there are a number of fine turntables new and second hand capable of exceptional performance and quite possible in the case of a second hand Michell or Linn etc at less cost than you might expect.
The price that the 1200 was sold at by Technics is not a true reflection of its actual worth. No other turntable manufacturer has ever been able to make a turntable base to the same high standard at even several times the price. The 1200/1210 were cheap to buy because of the immense production quantity. I think that the 1200/1210 production numbers were at least ten times that of its nearest competitor. If the Linn had been made in the same sort of quantity it would have been about the price of a Sansui SR-222 or Pioneer PL12.
The price that the 1200 was sold at by Technics is not a true reflection of its actual worth. No other turntable manufacturer has ever been able to make a turntable base to the same high standard at even several times the price. The 1200/1210 were cheap to buy because of the immense production quantity.
Precisely, Stan. It's called 'economies of scale' :)
That the 1200/1210 sold for such a pityful amount new, given the standards of engineering prowess on offer (and here I'm talking mainly about the superb D/D motor unit), is unfortunately, along with the DJ association, why many so-called 'audiophiles' don't give it the credibility it deserves....
Marco.
Mr Kipling
30-05-2014, 19:25
Big on isolation? Me too.
12582
Thanks Stephen. This thread has become rather - varied - shall we say, although the TT dialogue is fascinating. In so far as isolation is concerned, I've spent as much on the isolation aspects of my system as the major components. For me it's that important. RFI and microphonics are minimalised everywhere.
As for TTs. I started with an RP3 and changed just about every element of it. It's owes me £1500 now, including a 2M black, and I could have bought a Xerxes 20+ for that.... But it sounds damn good to my ears. I love the personalisation of decks. And hi fi, come to that. It's almost an intuitive art, as much as a science. I for one firmly believe that we listen with far more than our ears. More our whole bodies. And the measurable is only a part of the sonic and sensory spectrum.
jandl100
31-05-2014, 06:01
Hi Peter. As the owner of Matrix 805's for many years. when it was time to change it was a difficult decision as you are loathed to give up the assets of a great small monitor to gain that missing bass! ..... Until the lottery comes up and I have room and funds for Martin Logan CLS !
Be careful what you wish for!
You want deep bass but you are considering ML CLS? :scratch:
Does not compute! :)
The CLS (I had CLS2z a couple of times) are huge speakers with the bass capability of fairly small standmounts! They just don't do bass welly at all. They do other things like rez and imaging superbly, though, when driven adequately. And because of the nature of the bass rolloff (quite slow) they are very tricky to blend in properly with a sub, in fact I suspect it can't be done properly. You just have to accept them for what they are.
StanleyB
31-05-2014, 06:49
They just don't do bass welly at all.
I remember you saying that about the NS1000M as well. But it has helped me to find out what really hides behind some great bass recordings.
jandl100
31-05-2014, 06:59
Well, I'm stickin' to ma guns, Stan. ;)
Bass quality is excellent in its way with the CLS - really taut, detailed and textured, just not deep or powerful. Want to flex the walls? - look elsewhere!
Must confess I can't really recall the bass on the Yammies, just that the speakers overall did not suit me at all.
Rush2112
01-06-2014, 05:42
I never said I want deep bass never mentioned the word deep not once! That's the whole point of high end it's still a compromise ! There are things Wilson's can do that Logan's can't and vice verse ! I heard both and could live with either for different reasons.
jandl100
01-06-2014, 07:52
I never said I want deep bass never mentioned the word deep not once!
Ah. Yup, correct! You never mentioned deep bass.
I just deduced it from your statement ...
Hi Peter. As the owner of Matrix 805's for many years. when it was time to change it was a difficult decision as you are loathed to give up the assets of a great small monitor to gain that missing bass!
Well, I'm stickin' to ma guns, Stan. ;).
Stick to your guns by all means, but you are still wrong. My friend Andrew visited this weekend and he had absolutely no complaint regarding 'bass welly'!
As with every speaker, you need a decent source and an amplifier that suits them - not just some random bit of kit that happens to be passing through.
jandl100
01-06-2014, 08:35
Stick to your guns by all means, but you are still wrong. My friend Andrew visited this weekend and he had absolutely no complaint regarding 'bass welly'!
Well, I'm stickin' to ma guns, Stan. ;)
Bass quality is excellent in its way with the CLS - really taut, detailed and textured, just not deep or powerful. Want to flex the walls? - look elsewhere!
Must confess I can't really recall the bass on the Yammies, just that the speakers overall did not suit me at all.
it helps if you read what's on the page ;)
Yes, true :) - that's the problem with reading quotes of other peoples posts - some of the context (or all of it) can be lost.
The question is, are Yammies as much of an 'acquired taste' as big Tannoys, or even MBLs? ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
03-06-2014, 13:33
I wouldn't say that the NS1000M at least is an acquired taste. It is more of a reference kind of speaker that can show up faults and weaknesses in the delivery chain. Unfortunately, far too often the speakers are fingered as the culprit when things don't sound right. I have read old wives' tale about placing them x, y, or z inches from the wall. Or about how the bass leaves a lot to be desired. As far as I am concerned, those are blatant slurs on the capabilities of these speakers.
jandl100
03-06-2014, 13:44
I guess that my real problem with the Yammies was that they had major competition at the time chez Jerry - I already had a pair of Thiel CS2.3, and they did similar things to the Yams, but better!
So the Thiels stayed for quite a while longer and a new home was made for the Yams at StanB Mansions :)
IMO YMMV etc
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/YamThiel_zpsa91aa612.jpg
StanleyB
03-06-2014, 14:39
The thing is that I also got a pair of the Thiels and they are nowhere as good as the NS1000M in the accuracy of the bass delivery. Deep yes, but a far slower start and stop performance. Zoolook by JMJ is a dead give away of poor bass punctuality. The Thiel fails that test.
The question is, are Yammies as much of an 'acquired taste' as big Tannoys, or even MBLs? ;)
Marco.
I wouldn't say the Yammies or MBL's are 'acquired taste' sort of designs. As Stanley B writes, the Yammies are not what you would call forgiving (but then they weren't supposed to be) - the MBL's produce a soundstage that some may find odd - such is the nature of the omni. It's the bass loading of rear horn loaded Tannoys that I can't get on with - but I wouldn't call it an acquired taste as I just don't see myself acquiring it.
walpurgis
03-06-2014, 16:08
I've always liked the NS1000 when I've heard them. They are very revealing and there's a nice sense of tautness about the delivery that few other speakers can match. In the wrong setup I'm sure they could be described as unforgiving, but that's due to use in the wrong context.
Anyway, what is a forgiving speaker? One that sounds so dull as to muddle the signal being fed to it?
I wouldn't say the Yammies or MBL's are 'acquired taste' sort of designs. As Stanley B writes, the Yammies are not what you would call forgiving (but then they weren't supposed to be) - the MBL's produce a soundstage that some may find odd - such is the nature of the omni.
Yup. However, the point I was making is that as loudspeakers are undoubtedly the most coloured sounding and inaccurate components in the audio reproduction chain, pretty much any of them could be considered as an 'acquired taste'! ;)
The interesting thing, in terms of Yammies, is that both those and Tannoys were widely used in professional recording studios, and therefore despite sounding totally different from each other, were obviously considered as being suitable for the job (accurate enough for monitoring purposes) by the engineers of the respective studios where they were used.
Also, I appreciate and enjoy the unique sonic abilities of both Yammies and vintage Tannoy DCs, recognising that both are ultimately flawed (in different ways), but that they are also superior in many ways to a lot of modern designs. I think that both genuinely deserve being referred to as 'classics' from their respective eras.
It's the bass loading of rear horn loaded Tannoys that I can't get on with - but I wouldn't call it an acquired taste as I just don't see myself acquiring it.
I'm not even sure that applies to my Lockwood Majors? Sorry, I pay little attention to these sorts of things - I just listen to the buggers! However, am I right in saying that most of the Tannoy DCs you've heard have been at Scalford?
If so, Lancasters aside, which Jerry was demonstrating for someone, all the other Tannoy DCs I've heard there have been crap, and have sounded 'phat', tubby and old-fashioned, with a distinctly rolled-off top end and a rather 'opaque' midrange (mainly because most still had the original crossovers and were used on the end of rather 'rose-tinted' sounding valve amps), so I'm not surprised you didn't like them.
Mine sound NOTHING like that, mainly because of how they've been voiced, as a result of judicious crossover modifications, not to mention how well they respond to amplification from the Copper amp, and also how well they work in the (small but perfectly formed) room I use them in. Most large Tannoy DCs I've heard work best in small rooms.
It's a pity, Mark, that although you travel to hi-fi shows, you don't seem to be as willing to travel the same distance to people's houses, as you'd be welcome to come and hear my LMs, on the end of my system (in situ at home), and see whether or not they change your views slightly on big Tannoys :)
Marco.
jandl100
04-06-2014, 05:13
The thing is that I also got a pair of the Thiels and they are nowhere as good as the NS1000M in the accuracy of the bass delivery. Deep yes, but a far slower start and stop performance. Zoolook by JMJ is a dead give away of poor bass punctuality. The Thiel fails that test.
Hmm, odd. I found the Thiels very tight in the bass, even a bit dry and overdamped - maybe it's amp dependent? - from my pic above I was using a Lyngdorf 220wpc class D amp - so good power delivery and very high damping factor.
Anyway, there's more to life than just bass.
No, honestly, there is! :lol:
jandl100
04-06-2014, 05:21
... The interesting thing, in terms of Yammies, is that both those and Tannoys were widely used in professional recording studios, and therefore despite sounding totally different from each other, were obviously considered as being suitable for the job (accurate enough for monitoring purposes) by the engineers of the respective studios where they were used....
Now there's a fascinating subject! :eyebrows:
Indeed, which is why I brought it up! ;)
Marco.
jandl100
04-06-2014, 07:08
I guess sound engineers need to hear differences as much as, or even more than, absolute quality ... ?
Lol... Well, that depends on what you mean. For me, if they're considered as accurate enough to be used in major recording studios worldwide (where sonic standards are high), responsible for producing some of the finest recodings contained in our music collections, then they are, by definition, accurate [or indeed as 'accurate' any inherently flawed transducer can be].
The 'absolute quality' thing I don't buy, as I consider that both Yammies and Tannoys are high-quality speakers, quite clearly capable of producing musical enjoyment to many listeners, yet both are also ruthlessly revealing of deficiencies in programme material, hence deserving their 'studio monitor' status.
However, what I love about both speakers (when used on the end of a suitably high-quality/high resolution system), is their ability to offer the listener incredible levels of analysis and insight into recordings, such that the tiniest details and nuances within them are laid bare for inspection, but in a totally believable, un-fatiguing, non-clinical and musically addictive way (the right partnering system and optimal set-up are mandatory for this to happen) - despite both speakers having rather different sonic presentations.
It's that last part I find most intriguing, and which probably deserves discussing/exploring on a separate thread of its own :)
Marco.
jandl100
04-06-2014, 08:30
Does not compute :scratch:
They can't be very different from each other and both be accurate! - in fact, neither is accurate as far as I am concerned, although the Yammies come a lot closer, and the Yams give much higher rez than almost all Tannoys I have heard. I agree that yours do the high rez thing, Marco - but they aren't normal Tannoys by any means.
You're certainly right about the 'high-rez' thing - I simply couldn't listen to them otherwise, as I don't 'do' cuddly or euphonic! :nono:
The dichotomy you've identified is precisely what I'm getting at and find intriguing. When I get time, I'll come back and explain my position more clearly :)
Marco.
walpurgis
04-06-2014, 10:03
I've heard the NS1000 many times and I acknowledge they are faster and tighter at their (limited) bottom end than just about any other moving coil speaker I've listened to. But my Tannoys have superb resolution and speed from the upper bass onwards, granted the Yams do tighter bass, but that's all as far as I've heard.
I've heard the NS1000 many times ..
Ah, but not mine... ;).
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So the Yamahas are 'faster and tighter' than any other moving coil speaker yet the Tannoys have 'superb resolution and speed'... It's not easy to see how you are separating 'fast' and 'speed' here - I've not heard any Tannoy with the resolving power of the Yamahas either - though I have heard the Yamahas being driven by a number of valve amps and I'm not convinced they are the perfect match some believe.
walpurgis
04-06-2014, 11:25
Ah, but not mine... ;).
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So the Yamahas are 'faster and tighter' than any other moving coil speaker yet the Tannoys have 'superb resolution and speed'... It's not easy to see how you are separating 'fast' and 'speed' here - I've not heard any Tannoy with the resolving power of the Yamahas either - though I have heard the Yamahas being driven by a number of valve amps and I'm not convinced they are the perfect match some believe.
Not sure I am separating 'fast' and 'speed'. The Yams use a high flux dome midrange unit and tweeter and the Tannoys have a very fast compression driver, so the speed through the critical mid and treble should be excellent for both. The "faster and tighter" quote is now out of context, as I did say "I've listened to". I have owned speakers faster and tighter sounding than either though.
I'm not even sure that applies to my Lockwood Majors?
No, I don't know if it does either. Yeah, most vintage ones at Scalford, more modern ones at other shows and my friend Dave has a pair of old DC Tannoys (in modern cabinets).
It's a pity, Mark, that although you travel to hi-fi shows, you don't seem to be as willing to travel the same distance to people's houses, as you'd be welcome to come and hear my LMs, on the end of my system (in situ at home), and see whether or not they change your views slightly on big Tannoys :)
Marco.
I usually do the show thing as a 'boys day out' - but even then we rarely travel that far; I didn't go to Bristol this year, for example - but, never say never and all that.
Does not compute :scratch:
The clue is here:
However, what I love about both speakers (when used on the end of a suitably high-quality/high resolution system), is their ability to offer the listener incredible levels of analysis and insight into recordings, such that the tiniest details and nuances within them are laid bare for inspection, but in a totally believable, un-fatiguing, non-clinical and musically addictive way (the right partnering system and optimal set-up are mandatory for this to happen) - despite both speakers having rather different sonic presentations.
Essentially, BOTH speakers were designed to provide high levels of insight and analysis into music recordings, and to reveal lots of inner detail, in order to fulfil their role as genuine studio monitors.
However, both Yammies and Tannoys do that job in a different way, and so whilst the above is true, that doesn't stop them both sounding different, due to the fact that they've been designed differently and have different physical dimensions.
It's basically a question of differentiating between musical insight/analysis and 'sonic signature'. In that sense, two totally different speakers can still achieve the former, even if they have rather different sonic presentations.
Marco.
No, I don't know if it does either. Yeah, most vintage ones at Scalford, more modern ones at other shows and my friend Dave has a pair of old DC Tannoys (in modern cabinets).
Cool. I'm guessing that the latter, to your ears, sound the best out of the bunch?
Aside from the Lancasters Jerry was demonstrating at one of the shows, for a fellow Wammer (which were probably just a 'happy accident'), I've never heard a decent pair of vintage Tannoys at Scalford [other than my own, when they were part of an AoS system demonstrated there], for reasons previously described, so I'm not surprised you haven't liked any either. Similarly, I've not really heard any modern ones at shows that I've liked, but for somewhat different sonic reasons to those I've stated for the vintage ones.
Experience has taught me that there are so many things to get right with large Tannoy DCs, new or old, before they will reveal their true sonic potential, in terms of how successful the drive units match the cabinets, the massive influence on proceedings of the crossovers used, how well the partnering amps drive the speakers and achieve sonic and electrical synergy, not to mention one of the most important things of all: how well they integrate into the room they're being used in...!!
In my experience, rarely is ALL of the above optimised in systems - and when big Tannoys DCs aren't 'right', due to their ruthlessly revealing nature, your ears will soon tell you, which is one of the main reasons why opinions on them are often quite divided. However, when you get it right, and tick all of the above boxes, the results are magical - providing of course you get on in the first place with their intrinsic and unique way of music-making.
Marco.
P.S I would really like you at some point to come and hear mine, as I know how critical and difficult to please you are, and so your constructive criticism would be useful, no doubt insightful, and therefore most welcome :)
jandl100
06-06-2014, 06:04
Aside from the Lancasters Jerry was demonstrating at one of the shows, for a fellow Wammer (which were probably just a 'happy accident'), I've never heard a decent pair of vintage Tannoys at Scalford [other than my own, when they were part of an AoS system demonstrated there
Yep, for some reason Wammer Robin's Tannoys really were on song that day. The room helped a lot I suspect; large but not too large, rectangular but with some interesting protrusions to break up resonances, with lots of space around the speakers.
I think some amplifier synergy was also at work - Unison Research Unico Secondo hybrid integrated (mainly) but also an Amptastic Mini-T both sounding great - not a few folks thought it the best sound at the Scalford Show that year. I've certainly not heard Tannoys sounding better and more musical than in that system/room - even if they did do my head in after a few hours with the Tannoy-TinselTM in the upper mids and a bit too much enveloping bloom for my tastes.
I hate to flatter Marco but I reckon his 66s were the best vintage speakers there that year. Strip vintage and still pretty much the best there in a lot of respects.
Should be checking out Tom's Tannoys later today:)
Mark? :popcorn:
Marco.
Sorry Marco - me Mark?
Yesh, daftee - who else do you think I was referring to? ;)
See post #80; it was directed at you.
Marco.
I hate to flatter Marco but I reckon his 66s were the best vintage speakers there that year. Strip vintage and still pretty much the best there in a lot of respects.
That's very kind of you to say, but don't forget that any loudspeakers are only as good as the signal which feeds them - and in that system, there was A LOT of very good equipment upstream, and most importantly in a hotel demo room, attention to detail paid, in terms of how the system received power from the mains supply and was supported on equipment racks, etc! ;)
We spent about 6-7 hours the night before tuning the system to perform in the room as optimally as possible - and it is *that* which was largely responsible for the results we achieved.
Marco.
Yesh, daftee - who else do you think I was referring to? ;)
See post #80; it was directed at you.
Marco.
Oh, hang on:
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Cool. I'm guessing that the latter, to your ears, sound the best out of the bunch?
Well, yes, sort of. He ended up taking them all active and I was progressively less keen on them as he did so. He's actually removed the DC drivers from the cabs now and is using them with an Eminence driver and a separate tweeter - which does sound significantly better in pretty much every way (passive again).
Aside from the Lancasters Jerry was demonstrating at one of the shows, for a fellow Wammer (which were probably just a 'happy accident'), I've never heard a decent pair of vintage Tannoys at Scalford [other than my own, when they were part of an AoS system demonstrated there], for reasons previously described, so I'm not surprised you haven't liked any either. Similarly, I've not really heard any modern ones at shows that I've liked, but for somewhat different sonic reasons to those I've stated for the vintage ones.
I did hear yours at Scalford - but only for quite a short time. I was struck by how much better they were than the previous years Hecos (I think they were the previous year), but then they weren’t being thrashed to death as the Hecos were (they sounded dire). To be honest, I wasn't overwhelmed - but then I also didn't leave thinking 'rolled off treble and pudding bass' which is what most of the vintage cabinet Tannoy DC's sound like to me.
Experience has taught me that there are so many things to get right with large Tannoy DCs, new or old, before they will reveal their true sonic potential, in terms of how successful the drive units match the cabinets, the massive influence on proceedings of the crossovers used, how well the partnering amps drive the speakers and achieve sonic and electrical synergy, not to mention one of the most important things of all: how well they integrate into the room they're being used in...!!
I don't disagree with any of that - but I think it's true of all good quality speakers and all large speakers are difficult to site in a room without exciting room problems.
In my experience, rarely is ALL of the above optimised in systems - and when big Tannoys DCs aren't 'right', due to their ruthlessly revealing nature, your ears will soon tell you, which is one of the main reasons why opinions on them are often quite divided. However, when you get it right, and tick all of the above boxes, the results are magical - providing of course you get on in the first place with their intrinsic and unique way of music-making.
Marco.
Yeah... I'm not sure 'ruthlessly revealing' is how I would describe my experience...
P.S I would really like you at some point to come and hear mine, as I know how critical and difficult to please you are, and so your constructive criticism would be useful, no doubt insightful, and therefore most welcome :)
Weelll.... that would be cool - but what if I don't like them?
Lol - that was a bit of an interrogation! [I always feel that excessive quoting of small bits of someone's text comes across that way].
It doesn't matter if you don't like them. I like them, and so that's all that matters. All I'm curious about is how they compare, to your ears, with all the other big Tannoys you've heard, so just be honest. I'm not one of those 'precious types', who are easily offended, and so won't cry like a girl if someone doesn't like my speakers! ;)
Lockwood Majors (with 15" Tannoy MGs) performing optimally in the right room, *are* ruthlessly revealing. That's one thing you will definitely hear with mine, whether or not you like how they present music.
At the Scalford show you attended, where my Lockwood Majors were being demonstrated, do you remember if you came into the AoS room early or late in the day? When I say late in the day, I'm talking about within the last hour before everyone was packing up.
The reason I ask is that different amplifiers were being used depending on at what time you attended the demo.
Marco.
Hmm.. good question - I think it was toward the end of the show.
If a post makes lots of points I quote different sections, as I respond to each bit, so I don't have to write a massive essay with lots of explanation as to what I am responding to - it's a convenience thing, nothing more.
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It's also interesting that people have written so many positive comments regarding the Ditton 66's - when we heard them at Scalford (we being myself and my little group of cohorts) we really weren't wowed at all.I'm not sure why we should hear things so differently. I have found that where you sit makes a huge difference at shows and given the chance I try to sit in a number of different positions when attending show. Scalford is so busy that I think I tried a couple of seats but none ideal. However, I've also noticed that people often love systems essentially because they happen to be playing music they like. Unfortunately, when I heard the Celestions they were playing The Colour of Spring by TalkTalk - an album myself and one of my friends had listened to on my system before going to Scalford - both of us were really struck by the differences (but, unfortunately, not in a very positive way).
Out of interest, Mark, was the TalkTalk track on vinyl or CD? :)
If you were in the AoS room at the end of the day (when the Lockwoods were there), it would've likely been Steve Toy's Copper amp that was being used, as I'd left mine at home. Before that, it was Anthony TDs single-ended Soul Monoblocks.
However, the point I was making was that the presentation of the system was rather different, depending on which of the above amps were used, neither of which of course were mine.
Marco.
I can't really remember the answer to either of those questions I'm afraid. I don't think the Talk Talk was on vinyl and I think it was Steve's amp being used - but could easily be wrong on both counts.
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Mentioning Steve's system, I've heard that at least twice at Scalford and I'm not a fan of his Tannoy's. My ear seems to be drawn to the transition between the tweeter and the bass and the lower treble/upper mid always sound rather too hot. Once I've heard this colouration it seems to pervade everything played on them.
jandl100
06-06-2014, 19:33
I hate to flatter Marco but I reckon his 66s were the best vintage speakers there that year. Strip vintage and still pretty much the best there in a lot of respects.
Well, I don't mind flattering Marco - and I agree with you. That system sounded superb - I'd take the C66s over Tannoys any day of the year!
I can't really remember the answer to either of those questions I'm afraid. I don't think the Talk Talk was on vinyl and I think it was Steve's amp being used - but could easily be wrong on both counts.
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Mentioning Steve's system, I've heard that at least twice at Scalford and I'm not a fan of his Tannoy's. My ear seems to be drawn to the transition between the tweeter and the bass and the lower treble/upper mid always sound rather too hot. Once I've heard this colouration it seems to pervade everything played on them.
No, I don't think it would've been on vinyl either, namely because I don't have that album on vinyl, and we know how much you just love CD... ;)
I think Steve's Tannoys are quite good, although I much prefer Anthony's Kensingtons or my own LMs.
Yup, I strongly suspect you're a bit like Jerry, and that the 'Tannoy thing' just isn't for you. However, that doesn't stop me being curious about letting you hear mine, so if you fancy it, or are ever in the area, let me know! :cool:
Marco.
Well, I don't mind flattering Marco - and I agree with you. That system sounded superb - I'd take the C66s over Tannoys any day of the year!
LOL - I wasn't sure if you'd had a chance to hear the C66s or not. Mark's right, though, about it all depending on where you sit. Furthermore, hotel rooms are dreadful places to try and achieve a good sound. The fact that we managed to get some sort of decent result in there was a miracle!
Marco.
I'll make time for a visit Marco :).
Quality! Why not pop over after the Cranage Hall show? The venue is no more than 35 mins away from me. Your friends would also be welcome :)
Marco.
Ah, cos there will be four of me
Wow - that's quite a doppelgänger talent you've got...! :eek:
Not a problem, we'll squeeze all four Marks in!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ah, perhaps - work the next day though and it difficult to persuade four (two of which won't have read any of this).
No worries... Let's meet up in the bar at Cranage and discuss it :cool:
Marco.
Yep - I'm sure we will be in the bar at some point.
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