View Full Version : Just pulled the trigger on one of these babies....
I've been wanting to try a Denon DL-S1 for a while, so whilst 2juki were doing a good deal, with free P&P to the UK, I thought I'd take the plunge: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281171175461
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/594/fppd.jpg
Technical specifications and general info:
DENON DL-S1 PHONO CARTRIDGE
The Denon DL-S1 moving coil phono cartridge is Denon's top of the line phono cartridge. It is designed and crafted to provide the pinnacle of performance, a bold statement that should not be taken lightly given Denon's track record of producing moving coil phono cartridges that have withstood the test of time and penchant for understating the engineering genius of their designs. The Denon DL-S1 cartridge offers musical accuracy that is exemplary, breathtaking and addictive. It is a standard by which other pinnacle and topflight cartridges will be compared to. If you are thinking of spending up to 100 times the cost of the Denon DL-S1 phono cartridge, it may be wise to reconsider. Musical satisfaction could be less expensive than you imagine. The special features and technical specifications enumerated below offer a thoughtful glimpse of its capabilities.
Features:
1. Newly developed ultra fine wire combining gold and 6N copper. A newly developed ultra fine wire combining pure gold and 6N copper is used in the voltage generating coil. By combining the excellent qualities of gold and copper, the Denon DL-S1 is thus able to deliver uncompromisable and unadorned pure and clean analog sound quality. Pure music - that's what you get with the Denon DL-S1 MC phono cartridge.
2. Stable, analog reproduction via superb tracing capability. The use of a tapered cantilever, a non-magnetic coil bobbin, and a 0.07 mm micro stylus chip reduced the effective mass of its vibration system, lowered its mechanical impedance, and superbly improved its ability to trace the grooves in the record.
3. Elimination of unwanted vibrations with carefully selected materials. A ceramic frame and a highly rigid aluminum body to eliminate unwanted vibrations within the cartridge.
4. Denon's unique 2-way dumping system. The unique Denon two-way dumping system has been employed to suppress the tonal variations due to changes in room temperature and at the same time to obtain level frequency characteristics.
Denon DL-S1 Phono Cartridge Specifications:
- Type: Moving coil
- Output voltage: 0.15mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-70kHz
- Recommended load impedance: Over 100 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: > 28dB
- Stylus tip: 0.07 x 0.07 mm square solid diamond
- Compliance: 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: (1.3g +/- 0.2g)
- Color: Black/Gold
- Weight: 7 g
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/41/2id3.png
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/703/jvw6.jpg
I'll be using it with one of these headshells (in my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/21/57s6.jpg
Should be an interesting comparison with my SPU Royal GM MKII! :)
Full review to follow when it arrives (expected sometime between 12th-23rd April).
Marco.
Look forward to reading the review. :)
Can't wait to get my mitts on it, Barry. The DL-S1 has been on my radar for a while, and by all accounts is a bit of a 'giant-killer'... Could be the another AoS SPPV champion! ;)
Marco.
I've been wanting to try a Denon DL-S1 for a while, so whilst 2juki were doing a good deal, with free P&P to the UK, I thought I'd take the plunge: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281171175461
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/594/fppd.jpg
Technical specifications and general info:
DENON DL-S1 PHONO CARTRIDGE
The Denon DL-S1 moving coil phono cartridge is Denon's top of the line phono cartridge. It is designed and crafted to provide the pinnacle of performance, a bold statement that should not be taken lightly given Denon's track record of producing moving coil phono cartridges that have withstood the test of time and penchant for understating the engineering genius of their designs. The Denon DL-S1 cartridge offers musical accuracy that is exemplary, breathtaking and addictive. It is a standard by which other pinnacle and topflight cartridges will be compared to. If you are thinking of spending up to 100 times the cost of the Denon DL-S1 phono cartridge, it may be wise to reconsider. Musical satisfaction could be less expensive than you imagine. The special features and technical specifications enumerated below offer a thoughtful glimpse of its capabilities.
Features:
1. Newly developed ultra fine wire combining gold and 6N copper. A newly developed ultra fine wire combining pure gold and 6N copper is used in the voltage generating coil. By combining the excellent qualities of gold and copper, the Denon DL-S1 is thus able to deliver uncompromisable and unadorned pure and clean analog sound quality. Pure music - that's what you get with the Denon DL-S1 MC phono cartridge.
2. Stable, analog reproduction via superb tracing capability. The use of a tapered cantilever, a non-magnetic coil bobbin, and a 0.07 mm micro stylus chip reduced the effective mass of its vibration system, lowered its mechanical impedance, and superbly improved its ability to trace the grooves in the record.
3. Elimination of unwanted vibrations with carefully selected materials. A ceramic frame and a highly rigid aluminum body to eliminate unwanted vibrations within the cartridge.
4. Denon's unique 2-way dumping system. The unique Denon two-way dumping system has been employed to suppress the tonal variations due to changes in room temperature and at the same time to obtain level frequency characteristics.
Denon DL-S1 Phono Cartridge Specifications:
- Type: Moving coil
- Output voltage: 0.15mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-70kHz
- Recommended load impedance: Over 100 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: > 28dB
- Stylus tip: 0.07 x 0.07 mm square solid diamond
- Compliance: 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: (1.3g +/- 0.2g)
- Color: Black/Gold
- Weight: 7 g
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/41/2id3.png
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/703/jvw6.jpg
I'll be using it with one of these headshells (in my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/21/57s6.jpg
Should be an interesting comparison with my SPU Royal GM MKII! :)
Full review to follow when it arrives (expected sometime between 12th-23rd April).
Marco.
:popcorn:
You might end up with one yourself, Andy, as an upgrade over your DL-103 :)
Marco.
jandl100
30-03-2014, 08:14
:popcorn:
Ker-ching! - That's a £ in the charity box please :lol:
jandl100
30-03-2014, 08:17
I tried one of those Denon DL-S1 .... err, let's just say that it is VERY different from a 103. ;)
I suspect you need more patience and applied resources to make it work than I was prepared to supply! :scratch:
Will be interesting to read your thoughts on this one Marco. I was recently looking at these myself before taking the 103D and SA. Its a bit of an odd ball IMHO, it has very low output and very high compliance meaning arm matching may be a bit of an issue. I would have like to have seen it come with a better stylus as well...
Yeah, should be a VERY different presentation to the SPU's, meaning the modern ones. 'Twill be fascinating to read your comments Marco :) :respect:
I tried one of those Denon DL-S1 .... err, let's just say that it is VERY different from a 103. ;)
I suspect you need more patience and applied resources to make it work than I was prepared to supply! :scratch:
Lol... Yup, I read the review in Pig! You know how it is when you have an itch to scratch, and the DL-S1's been such an itch, for me, for some time.
I'm confident it'll work, as I suspect it will like my valve phono stage, not to mention the Paul Hynes head amp, which can be tuned to suit any kind of loading or gain requirements, and with 15" Tannoys (and the fact that the Techy is a 'bass demon'), there is no lack of low-end extension in my system, so even if the Denon is a little leaner in that department than I'm use to, it'll be no bad thing :)
Anyways, muchacho, we shall suck it and see! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Neal,
Will be interesting to read your thoughts on this one Marco. I was recently looking at these myself before taking the 103D and SA. Its a bit of an odd ball IMHO, it has very low output and very high compliance meaning arm matching may be a bit of an issue. I would have like to have seen it come with a better stylus as well...
Yup, although in terms of a "better stylus", one thing I've learned with experimenting with cartridges, is that the quality of the diamond used, and how its polished is, overall, of more importance than the type of tip fitted, and so a cartridge that has a 'special elliptical' stylus, fitted with a top-notch, 'expertly polished' diamond, can outperform one fitted with a 'posher' stylus and inferior quality diamond.
Therefore, I'm not too concerned about the 'inferior' stylus, especially as I'm sure that Denon would've used a line-contact type, on their 'flagship' cartridge, if they'd felt that in the context of the design it offered a worthwhile advantage. Besides, the best Denon cartridge I've ever heard (the DL-103M) used the same stylus as has been fitted to the DL-S1, so I'm hoping that the latter will be capable of similar magic, especially with the tapered cantilever, the effect of which I'm led to believe is significant.
As for tonearms, I've read good reports about people using the DL-S1 in Linn Ittoks [see here: http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/DLS1/], which are simiar in type and mass to my Ortofon, and of course I can experiment with headshells, and optimise things from that point of view, so I'm not really too worried on that score.
Anyway, the proof of the pudding is in the listening, as they say, so we shall see how this particular experiment pans out! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Dave,
Yeah, should be a VERY different presentation to the SPU's, meaning the modern ones. 'Twill be fascinating to read your comments Marco :) :respect:
Yup, matey - I wanted to try something that was the polar opposite of my SPU, in terms of design and style of sonic presentation. If it works out how I'm hoping it will, I'll have two superb cartridges that excel in specific areas of music reproduction which are very important to me, depending on the type of music I'm listening to.
Fingers crossed it all works out. It's time that the DL-S1 was a little more well-known on these shores! :)
Marco.
That seems to be a rather popular smiley here! ;)
Marco.
Ker-ching! - That's a £ in the charity box please :lol:
Lol!
Is this an in-joke, amongst daftees, I'm not aware of? :D
Marco.
Its a bit of an odd ball IMHO, it has very low output and very high compliance meaning arm matching may be a bit of an issue. I would have like to have seen it come with a better stylus as well...
Yes, I was surprised to see the output so low (not a bad thing, just means that the phonostage has to be very low noise and relatively high gain) and I was also surprised that it doesn't have a more advanced stylus profile (there seems to be a bit of a fashion for this among some Japanese manufacturers - some Audio-Technicas also).
Edit: Just seen the price - £500 seems very reasonable.
Having just had a 103D rebuilt with a fine line stylus I'm singing its virtues! ;) :D
Of the stylus or the 103D - or both?
Magna Audio
30-03-2014, 14:58
Oooh - looks lovely. Should be well engineered and sound different to the SPU.
Look forward to the review.
Variety is the spice of life!
Hi Mark,
Yes, I was surprised to see the output so low (not a bad thing, just means that the phonostage has to be very low noise and relatively high gain) and I was also surprised that it doesn't have a more advanced stylus profile (there seems to be a bit of a fashion for this among some Japanese manufacturers - some Audio-Technicas also).
Edit: Just seen the price - £500 seems very reasonable.
Indeed... The thing with Denon cartridges is that they always perform, sonically, far in excess of their price (witness the superb performance available from their budget MCs, such as the DL-110 and 160, not to mention the world-renowned DL-103, and what it's capable of with some judicious tweaking), and so whilst £500 is a very reasonable price indeed for a cartridge of the calibre of the DL-S1, you can bet your boots that, technically (sound of course is subjective), it'll compete with virtually any other cartridge that's out there, regardless of price.
Denon can do that simply because they're such a huge company, who employ some very talented, hugely experienced designers, and have all the tooling and production techniques set-up that allows them to produce cartridges, such as the DL-S1, for a fraction of the cost of much smaller companies, who mainly (or solely) make cartridges. It's an 'economies of scale' thing. The exact same applies with a company like Nagaoka, and so therefore, one can always guarantee very high 'SPPV' and technical precision with Denon or Nagaoka cartridges.
In terms of phono stage gain, there's only 0.05mV of a difference in output between my SPU and the DL-S1 (0.2mV and 0.15mV, respectively), so in that respect there should be no issues, and if there are, I'll get Paul to increase the gain on the head amp and/or make it switchable. The same applies with loading, which at the moment is set at 100 ohms on his head amp. There has been some talk that the DL-S1 likes 200 ohms, or perhaps even a little higher, but I'll address that issue if it becomes necessary when I listen to the results.
Can't wait to get it now! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Steve,
Oooh - looks lovely. Should be well engineered and sound different to the SPU.
Look forward to the review.
Variety is the spice of life!
Indeed! One of the things that attracted me to the DL-S1 (amongst many things) was its hugely extended high-frequency response. This thing goes up to 70kHz!! :eek:
Therefore, it should be a veritable 'information-meister', with bags of top-end sparkle and filigree detailing, which my SPU Royal already excels at (by going up to 60kHz), although not quite at the level of Dom's (£5k) DH1, which I heard at his place recently, and utterly blew me away!
What I'm hoping for, with the DL-S1, is the seemingly endless high-frequency 'headroom' of Dom's DH1, married to its 'boogie factor' and that of the SPU, for £500, instead of £5000.......... ;)
We'll see what happens and how close I can get!
Marco.
Well, yes, there is only .05 output difference which does seem tiny - but placed within context. That equates to 25% less output than your current, very low output, cartridge.
Yes, Denon are a large company but so are Audio-Technica and they have certainly made some cartridges that are not to my taste. To be honest, it rather sounds like you have decided that you are going to live this cartridge whatever.
I read Jerry's review of it and his comments regarding poor bass concern me (though he doesn't state what phonostage is used) - I've owned Denon cartridges in the past and reticent bass is not a characteristic I remember.
Regarding high frequency output, that is definitely a factor of low tip mass, low moving mass (low output suggests few coil turns which is good) and stylus profile. The Denon says it uses a modified elliptical - it would be interesting to know what this means exactly but on the face if it there are significantly better profiles available (including the one fitted to your own SPU).
If it does go above 20k though you will need to consider some super tweeters for your speakers. I was very pleased indeed by the results when I built mine.
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/Supertweeter_update_front_and_back_together.jpg
No, not at all! It simply that, on paper, it ticks certain important boxes for me. Time will tell if that ends up being the same in practice :)
I've been researching the DL-S1 for some time, and have now decided to take an 'educated punt' on it. If it works out as well as the similar punts I took on my SPU or the Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, not to mention the modified Technics SL-1210MK5G, which I imported from the States (or even my Tannoy Lockwoods), then I'll be laughing...! ;)
If gain needs to be increased, I'll simply get Paul to do that on the head amp - no biggie.
Yes Audio Technica also come into that category, although they're nowhere near as big as Denon. Like you, I'm not a massive fan of AT cartridges in general, although some have hit the spot, most notably the 33PTG. Some of their MMs are also very good.
Marco.
chris@panteg
31-03-2014, 09:58
Hi Steve,
Indeed! One of the things that attracted me to the DL-S1 (amongst many things) was its hugely extended high-frequency response. This thing goes up to 70kHz!! :eek:
Therefore, it should be a veritable 'information-meister', with bags of top-end sparkle and filigree detailing, which my SPU Royal already excels at (by going up to 60kHz), although not quite at the level of Dom's (£5k) DH1, which I heard at his place recently, and utterly blew me away!
What I'm hoping for, with the DL-S1 is the seemingly endless high-frequency 'headroom' of Dom's DH1, married to its 'boogie factor' and that of the SPU, for £500, instead of £5000.......... ;)
We'll see what happens and how close I can get!
Marco.
Surprised you never fancied trying a Technics EPC100 Marco , Matshushita's finest by all accounts , a MM but with a frequency response of 5 hz to 100 khz .
They are rare and not cheap though .
Yes, the 33PTGII is more to my taste too (though it doesn't completely shed that AT leanness) - you can get that at a very good price imported through eBay. AT do a number of variants of it though and some of them use less radical stylus profiles - elliptical variants.
Of the stylus or the 103D - or both?
Both...but you could argue its no longer a 103D.
Marco, did you consider the AT- ART7?
http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/products/cartridges/product.asp?catID=8&subID=57&prodID=4495
It looks very interesting and can be had for £800.
I've just found this that I found interesting - don't know if you have seen it already:
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-S1_Freq_Response0001.jpg
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-S1_5476_Freq_Res_Azimuth.gif
The comparison on Agon was with a DL-S1, another air core coil type, and the Art7 was said to be better in every way. I haven't heard the Art7 or the AT50ANV which is more expensive, but they seem to overcome a big problem with the DL-S1 and some preamps. That's the relatively high resistance/inductance. I'm not exactly sure what inductance is on the DL, but the Art7 is 12 ohms and 8uH.
Partially because of the large amount of gain needed for these carts, the cart inductance combines with shunt capacitance and can cause ultrasonic ringing and overload. I have read about people loading the cart below its impedance and I suspect that's why. When I tried the DL-S1 with an AHT phono stage I experienced what seemed like harmonic distortion, a rather nasty overtone on the mid/treble. I didn't take it below 100 ohms. When I switched to another phono stage the cart was excellent with a relaxed effortless type of natural sound. The AT is probably a more detailed sound and, judging from that response curve, accurate.
neo
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/105/1059319.html
The above, highlighted in red, may well explain Jerry's negative experience. I don't know how your own stage will interact with the Denon but it is worth bearing in mind.
Hi Chris,
Surprised you never fancied trying a Technics EPC100 Marco , Matshushita's finest by all accounts , a MM but with a frequency response of 5 hz to 100 khz .
They are rare and not cheap though .
Yup - that's another one on my radar. I'll happen at some point :)
Marco.
Marco, did you consider the AT- ART7?
http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/products/cartridges/product.asp?catID=8&subID=57&prodID=4495
It looks very interesting and can be had for £800.
I've seen it, Mark, but as we've discussed, which we agree upon, the AT 'house signature' is not especially or usually very desirable.
Marco.
I've seen it, Mark, but as we've discussed, which we agree upon, the AT 'house signature' is not especially or usually very desirable.
Marco.
Yes, I agree, but the 7 uses a construction/magnetic circuit like the Denon and quite unlike the rest of the AT range (including the model above it, the 9); as such, there is a good change that it will not have the same character that other AT cartridges exhibit.
I've just found this that I found interesting - don't know if you have seen it already:
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-S1_Freq_Response0001.jpg
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=3771&f=DL-S1_5476_Freq_Res_Azimuth.gif
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/105/1059319.html
The above, highlighted in red, may well explain Jerry's negative experience. I don't know how your own stage will interact with the Denon but it is worth bearing in mind.
Absolutely, and yes I've seen the graphs. This is all about 'sucking it to see', so we'll discover in due course how things work out. As you know, there are so many different variables that apply when testing cartridges, especially somewhat 'off the wall' ones like the Denon, that it's almost impossible to accurately predict an outcome.
When researching the DL-S1, one thing that came up was that, in the right system (and here I'm referring mainly to the T/T, tonearm and phono stage), it essentially sounded like a higher-class, more 'finessed', DL-103. In that sense, it mirrors the DL-103M, which I've heard sound stunning.
In essence, it's been mooted that the DL-S1 design took the 'bones' of the 103 sound and refined it to its full potential, by addressing issues at both ends of the frequency response that adversely affect the performance of a stock 103: namely a slightly bloated bottom end and rolled-off high-frequencies, whilst retaining its beguiling 'valve-like' midrange and 'boogie factor'. If it turns out that way, I'll be delighted.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about this, and I'm confident it will work. However, we'll see what happens! :)
Marco.
Yes, I agree, but the 7 uses a construction/magnetic circuit like the Denon and quite unlike the rest of the AT range (including the model above it, the 9);as such, there is a good change that it will not have the same character that other AT cartridges exhibit.
Perhaps, but I'm letting that one slide past me for the moment.
Marco.
One thing I've just noticed from the information provided on the graph, is that a Technics SL-1200 MK2 was used for testing purposes.
Now if the DL-S1 was fitted simply to a stock Technics arm, that would explain some of the less than favourable results... Quite simply, that arm was never designed to be used with a cartridge, such as a DL-S1! :doh:
The results would almost certainly be different if the cartridge were used on more suitable tonearm.
Incidentally, changing the subject somewhat, what type of stylus do you use on your Troika - is it the stock one or have you had it re-tipped with something more exotic? :)
Marco.
Btw, I've just noticed your edit on post #23...
If it does go above 20k though you will need to consider some super tweeters for your speakers. I was very pleased indeed by the results when I built mine.
http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/projects/8326/Supertweeter_update_front_and_back_together.jpg
That's interesting (and those look nice), as I've been thinking for a while about trying some super-tweeters on my Tannoys, so perhaps this'll just be the excuse I need! :)
One thing I've noticed in the past with super-tweeters, and also cartridges with a very extended high-frequency response, is that there is a knock-on effect (benefit) further down the frequency range, from where they operate, which our ears are able to process.
That is why speakers I've heard, fitted with super-tweeters, not only results in them producing more detailed high-frequencies, but bizarrely, also tighter and more articulate bass. The same, in my experience, also applies with cartridges that have an extended HF response, out with of audible range, and is probably what's responsible for their beguiling 'crystalline clarity'/top-end 'sparkle'.
We may not be able to hear any sound waves at 70kHz, but we can 'hear' the knock-on effect on music, of cartridges with 'supertweeter-type performance' at frequencies where our ears are capable of functioning! ;)
Marco.
One thing I've just noticed from the information provided on the graph, is that a Technics SL-1200 MK2 was used for testing purposes.
Now if the DL-S1 was fitted simply to a stock Technics arm, that would explain some of the less than favourable results... Quite simply, that arm was never designed to be used with a cartridge, such as a DL-S1! :doh:
The results would almost certainly be entirely different if the cartridge were used on more suitable tonearm.
Incidentally, changing the subject somewhat, what type of stylus do you use on your Troika - is it the stock one or have you had it re-tipped with something more exotic? :)
Marco.
I wouldn't say the graphs are unfavourable - in fact the frequency response is quite flat - a rising top end is common and often more pronounced than indicated here.
I'm surprised you think the arm would impact so - what do you feel is wrong with the standard arm for a frequency sweep? The mass should be OK.
My Troika has been quite heavily reworked and has a ruby cantilever and nude Geiger II S stylus (basically the same one as on your Ortofon). I also have one with the original aluminium cantilever and a Paratrace stylus.
Ha yes, I always edit my posts - half a dozen times sometimes!
There is a lot of speculation as to how supertweeters work (and as much as to whether they even do work). What is true (in every case I know of) is that supertweeters have output below 20k - ie well in to the audible range. They also alter the dispersion characteristic. I found the positioning of mine to be quite critical and have ended up with them angled slightly down and pointing slightly further out than the main speakers. I also recently changed the crossover cap from a ClarityCap ESA to a Mundorf Supreme (same value) and that has also made a difference for the better.
rubber duck
31-03-2014, 14:11
That is why speakers I've heard, fitted with super-tweeters, not only results in them producing more detailed high-frequencies, but bizarrely, also tighter and more articulate bass.
Gosh Marco, you almost sound like Roy Gregory!
I wouldn't say the graphs are unfavourable - in fact the frequency response is quite flat - a rising top end is common and often more pronounced than indicated here.
I'm surprised you think the arm would impact so - what do you feel is wrong with the standard arm for a frequency sweep? The mass should be OK.
It probably wouldn't affect the frequency sweep results, but the resonance characteristics of the stock Technics arm are not favourable for use with anything that could be considered as a 'high-end' cartridge. It's a peaky, shouty, resonant thing in stock form, and so simply not fit to be attached with something as demanding and revealing as a DL-S1.
I'm not sure which arm or T/T Jerry tested it with, but I suspect that the results he obtained were most likely attributable to a tonearm and/or phonostage mismatch.
More on this (and super-tweeters) later - gotta pop out for a bit! :cool:
Marco.
Gosh Marco, you almost sound like Roy Gregory!
Oh dear, that's worrying! :D
Marco.
Coherent cable loom - nuff said!
Phonostage issue with regard to Jerry - though he does seem to favour turntables I wouldn't personally consider.
rubber duck
31-03-2014, 16:08
There is a lot of speculation as to how supertweeters work (and as much as to whether they even do work). What is true (in every case I know of) is that supertweeters have output below 20k - ie well in to the audible range. They also alter the dispersion characteristic.
This was exactly what Peter Comeau once pointed out. Will try to locate the article for some quotes, but in essence he didn't believe super tweeters are able to reproduce signal that high up - noise and artefacts yes, but not necessarily musically relevant information. The increased clarity and presence reported by listeners does appear to coincide with output below 20kHz. I haven't myself listened to these but have been invited to a supertweeter shoot out which I'm now quite curious to hear.
The increased clarity and presence reported by listeners does appear to coincide with output below 20kHz. I haven't myself listened to these but have been invited to a supertweeter shoot out which I'm now quite curious to hear.
Keep us posted with the results of that one, Jeff! :)
Marco.
I've seen it, Mark, but as we've discussed, which we agree upon, the AT 'house signature' is not especially or usually very desirable.
Marco.
But surely in the right system it would sound fine. :ner:
Lol - yes in the right system, you'd hear the full extent of its inherent sonic signature, which depending on the listener, may or may not be desirable.
Marco.
pimlicoquad
31-03-2014, 16:53
I look forward to hearing how you can differentiate between those 60Khz an 70kHz tones. You'd better be submitting your review to Nature or some other learned journal if your ears can tell the slightest difference. Or is for the benefit of the passing bats? "All the highest notes, neither sharp nor flat: The ear can't hear as high as that, still I ought to please any passing bat With my High Fidelity" - Flanders and Swan A Song of Reproduction.
Lol - yes in the right system, you'd hear the full extent of its inherent sonic signature, which depending on the listener, may or may not be desirable.
Marco.
So, it's all a matter of taste, and a minefield for having to buy blind.
Exacto! However, I've bought blind many times before, most notably with my current tonearm and cartridge combination, at a combined cost of £3400, so you could say that I'm well used to taking a gamble! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I look forward to hearing how you can differentiate between those 60Khz an 70kHz tones. You'd better be submitting your review to Nature or some other learned journal if your ears can tell the slightest difference. Or is for the benefit of the passing bats? "All the highest notes, neither sharp nor flat: The ear can't hear as high as that, still I ought to please any passing bat With my High Fidelity" - Flanders and Swan A Song of Reproduction.
And this post serves exactly what purpose, Richard? I'm not going to be comparing 60 and 70kHz tones. Where did you get that from? All I said was that both my current SPU and the DL-S1 have an extended high-frequency response, with the latter, in that respect, even more extended than the former.
Marco.
Whether we can hear above 20K is one valid issue but so is the question of what is on a record over 20k. Supertweeters can definitely reach the frequencies they claim - my own are pretty flat to 40K, but that's only part of the story. In my own case I built them because the tweeters in my main speakers roll off quite quickly above 10K. One would expect the addition of a driver partly crossing into the operating range of another to adversely impact image focus and make the sound brighter. In actual fact the sound does not seem any brighter and focus is actually improved!
chris@panteg
31-03-2014, 17:44
With such an extended frequency responce, isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement.
It's interesting to see the frequency response chart almost matches the AT150 MLX, with a similar kick up around 10kHz. The 150 MLX is 5db at this point, so slightly higher. I think you need to revisit the AT house sound Marco. Admittidley, the 150MLX only goes from 10Hz to 30kHz, but the top end is beyond your hearing range anyway, but it's much cheaper and on paper does similar things.
I realise that the Denon is an MC, and the 150MLX is MM, but I would be intrigued to hear the differences between the two, and something higher up the AT range as well. As I said on paper, the responses are very similar.
pimlicoquad
31-03-2014, 18:22
Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues. Take the latest post - 'isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement." Now come on. That statement deserves some analysis. A suggestion that an extended frequecy response beyond the range of human hearing (and remember that men over 40 have a greatly reduced frequency response, despite what they might imagine or what their hifi dealers might tell them) improves harmonics. Well, whether any higher harmonics of fundamental tones are present is going to be a function of the system that produced the fundamental tones. Yes, if we are talking about a stringed instrument, there will be a series of harmonics present in the string's vibrations, but remember that the fall away of the volume of the higher harmonics is extremely rapid so the higher harmonics if present at all will be increasingly low in volume. Whether any of these increasingly small high frequency sounds have been captured will be a function of the transducers that captured the original sound, namely the microphones, and the resoution of the original capture matrial, eg the magnetic master tape. Electronc music producing pure tones won't generate harmonics in and of itself, unless they are part of the tone that is programmed to be produced. And then to cap it all the statment "Even though the ear can't hear that high" and the grand non sequitur "but you'll still notice an improvement". Quite how exactly? With a some special audiophile auditory organ that the rest of the population don't have? With the third eye? Because you've read in a hifi mag or a forum that you should be able to detect some difference?
Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues.
It may have appeared to you as "flippant", but with the absence of any smilies, in order to indicate irony, it certainly didn't come across like that - and now you're referring to perfectly valid input as "nonsense".
I suggest that you cease your blatant thread-crapping, aggressive tone, not to mention disrespectful and condescending attitude, or face a week's ban without any further warning. We don't tolerate that sort of behaviour here.
Marco.
It's interesting to see the frequency response chart almost matches the AT150 MLX, with a similar kick up around 10kHz. The 150 MLX is 5db at this point, so slightly higher. I think you need to revisit the AT house sound Marco. Admittidley, the 150MLX only goes from 10Hz to 30kHz, but the top end is beyond your hearing range anyway, but it's much cheaper and on paper does similar things.
I've heard the 150 (and also the 440MLA) and like them both, but I expect the DL-S1 to be rather different. I'll let you know the score on that one when the Denon lands! :)
Marco.
I really hope it is! I've spent enough on cartridges recently with the 2M Black and SAE 1000LT, but plans for an upgrade can always be made. I'll be placing an order for a platter soon, so my upgrade journey is almost over. The only things left to buy will be vinyl, and a decent MC cartridge (and the Slee Elevator EXP)
Are you going for the ETP platter or a Funk? :)
Marco.
Not sure at the moment.
A mk 1 Funk is cheaper, a mk 2 would be interesting, but I hear nothing but good things about the ETP.
Any chance of a decent pic of the ETP?
Ideally, I would like all three here so I can pick my favourite.
Not my T/T, but the platter is identical:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/541/enkr.jpg
Marco.
Cool. Thanks.
It will probably come down to who is willing to do the best deal for me at the end of April, (may be sooner).
If I go for a Mk2 funk, it will have to be a plain one.
I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest. I doubt I will ever get to hear them all, so it will be a case of paying my money, and taking my pick. I am still hoping a 2nd hand Mk1 turns up at a bargain price. I think the Mk1 Funk may be discontinued soon now that the Mk2 is around. So there may be an opportunity to get a deal from someone wanting to shift "old" stock.
I looked at getting a platter machined up at my friendly machine shop, strictly as a one off, but they are struggling for capacity for the foreseeable future, so I have resigned myself to buying one. It didn't look too difficult. The only interesting thing was going yo be getting the bearing on a CMM to get an accurate profile of the taper.
I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest.
Having compared them both the other day, side-by-side in the same system (with having Darren's Techy here to play with), I can tell you for a fact that there isn't a massive difference between them ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
31-03-2014, 19:48
Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues. Take the latest post - 'isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement." Now come on. That statement deserves some analysis. A suggestion that an extended frequecy response beyond the range of human hearing (and remember that men over 40 have a greatly reduced frequency response, despite what they might imagine or what their hifi dealers might tell them) improves harmonics. Well, whether any higher harmonics of fundamental tones are present is going to be a function of the system that produced the fundamental tones. Yes, if we are talking about a stringed instrument, there will be a series of harmonics present in the string's vibrations, but remember that the fall away of the volume of the higher harmonics is extremely rapid so the higher harmonics if present at all will be increasingly low in volume. Whether any of these increasingly small high frequency sounds have been captured will be a function of the transducers that captured the original sound, namely the microphones, and the resoution of the original capture matrial, eg the magnetic master tape. Electronc music producing pure tones won't generate harmonics in and of itself, unless they are part of the tone that is programmed to be produced. And then to cap it all the statment "Even though the ear can't hear that high" and the grand non sequitur "but you'll still notice an improvement". Quite how exactly? With a some special audiophile auditory organ that the rest of the population don't have? With the third eye? Because you've read in a hifi mag or a forum that you should be able to detect some difference?
Blimey, a few paragraphs wouldn't go amiss either.
If its nonsense then perhaps I failed to make my point but its something I put to someone who I regard and respect very highly!
What are the main benefits of such an extended frequency range such as the EPC100 mm cartridge? It was a couple of years back now but Richard Peachey said something along the lines of greater or extended harmonics?
Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this so?
Mr Pimlico has been given a week's holiday, in order to learn some manners.
Marco.
chris@panteg
31-03-2014, 20:11
I'm reasonably thick skinned Marco, if what I said was nonsense or the musings of a daftee I can take it you know:D
I know that, Chris. However, as you also know, that's not how we address each other here on a friendly forum like AoS, least of all on thread I've started about a new toy I'm getting! ;)
I simply won't tolerate that pish.
Marco.
With such an extended frequency responce, isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement.
That's the idea, or part of it anyway. But the naysayers would say that vinyl simply cannot support the extended high frequency information required to allow it to happen.
MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.
I don't know what the frequency response is of the Coles supertweeters in my DM2's however I sure as heck detected when one of them had failed, and I have 51 year old ears :eyebrows:
To get the full benefit, I assume you also need to make sure that the phono stage and amplifiers don't clip the output, and can support these frequencies?
MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.
...but in the meantime, you're perfectly happy trusting your ears telling you that there is a genuinely worthwhile improvement, so the naysayers can bleat away until the cows come home, meanwhile you're just enjoying the music! ;)
And dat's exactly how it should be brovva!
:exactly:
Marco.
Well yes, precisely - but I'm still interested in discovering the mechanism by which the subjective improvement is achieved.
chris@panteg
01-04-2014, 08:02
That's the idea, or part of it anyway. But the naysayers would say that vinyl simply cannot support the extended high frequency information required to allow it to happen.
MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.
Thanks Mark, I agree.
phonomac
01-04-2014, 08:10
Just another input to the criticality of the pre-amp interface with the DL-S1. This link is to a continuation of the A'gon discussion on another forum, and provides some more detail about matching the DL-304 and DL-S1 to pre-amps:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98674.0
regards
Angus
Well yes, precisely - but I'm still interested in discovering the mechanism by which the subjective improvement is achieved.
Sure, but that's (for me, anyway) very much a side-issue. The most important thing is enjoying the 'fruits of your labour' and revelling in the increased enjoyment of listening to music the improved sound has resulted in! :)
Life's too short to obsess over the 'whys and wherefores' or the 'ifs and buts' (not that I'm saying you're doing that, though). I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Just another input to the criticality of the pre-amp interface with the DL-S1. This link is to a continuation of the A'gon discussion on another forum, and provides some more detail about matching the DL-304 and DL-S1 to pre-amps:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98674.0
Thanks for the link, Angus. I'll have a good read of that :)
Edit: just looked - I've already read it, during part of my research. Thanks anyway!
Marco.
.... I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Because many folk equally enjoy the scientific and engineering side of the hobby, take Audio-Talk as an example. Some of us have curious minds and like to understand the science and engineering part as well as enjoy the music in equal measure. :)
:interesting:
That's absolutely fine, Neal, as long as you don't look down upon others who think differently from you, or try and force them into occupying the same mindset ;)
You, of course, don't do that, and neither do most of the guys on audio talk. However, whenever I get a sniff of that pish happening here, it's immediately stamped on!
Marco.
Exactly, its all about respecting the view point of others...
Unless we audition super-tweeters which only have output above 20kHz we can't know whether what we're hearing is down to our sensing ultrasonic frequencies. I feel it is a lot to do with the overlap in the audible range.
As super-tweeters generally overlap existing tweeters we can't de-couple what we hear in the audible range from ultrasonic. My hunch is that if we kill off the ultrasonic aspect of super-tweeters they would sound just the same....but it's only a hunch. At the same time I'd be happy to believe that we can sense ultrasonics vs hearing them.
Because many folk equally enjoy the scientific and engineering side of the hobby, take Audio-Talk as an example. Some of us have curious minds and like to understand the science and engineering part as well as enjoy the music in equal measure. :)
:interesting:
I have to agree with this. The engineering aspects, and proposed solutions to problems (that may or may not actually exist) fascinate me. My engineering background has meant that I have actually boycotted purchasing certain products as the manufacturer will not answer some basic questions about the properties/specifications of there product, without revealing the "secret" part of their work.
This is normally used to contrast managers and engineers but seems to chime with the current topic too.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/ManandEng_zpsc956d3e9.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/cmeakins/media/ManandEng_zpsc956d3e9.jpg.html)
Quality... Nice one, Clive! :D
Marco.
JazzBones
01-04-2014, 19:48
Life's too short to obsess over the 'whys and wherefores' or the 'ifs and buts' (not that I'm saying you're doing that, though). I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Someone buy this man a good bottle of wine, my feelings are the same. I have been using Townshend Maxim supertweeters for years now and with the variable output of frequency I can dial in as and when needed. Normally they are set on Position 1 so just ticking in, would not be without them. Marco, get a move on lad and write up your findings on the new cartridge, looks like it would do nicely on the end of my AO modified Linn Ekos :D
I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest.
I found the difference between the two platters to be about as much as between the bearings, i.e. significant but not 'massive'.
I'd say that the improvement brought about by going from the stock bearing to the MN one is bigger than that obtained by going from the Funk platter to the ETP, quite simply because in the case of the former, you're going from something that was fundamentally built to price, and whose performance is thus constrained on that basis, to something uber-engineered and built to be the best it can.
In terms of the Funk versus the ETP, you're going from one inherently well-engineered bespoke-designed platter, free from the cost constraints/sonic limitations of the stock Technics item, to another, and consequently any perceived superiority of performance with either is ultimately less apparent than when comparing the Technics bearing with the Mike New one (and the same would apply when using the Technics platter as a benchmark for quality against either the Funk or the ETP).
In saying that, however, the sonic benefits I've obtained by changing from the Funk (MKI) to the ETP have been entirely worthwhile :)
Marco.
P.S Thanks, Ron - as soon as the DL-S1 lands, chez-moi, you'll be hearing all about it! :trust:
thankyoumisterman
02-04-2014, 06:40
I haven't replied on this board in a loooong time...but I confidently predict you'll love the DL-S1. With a wide-band SUT or the like to boost that delicate signal, it's a great distillation of the Denon sound. I run a few Denon carts now - a Zu 103r, a 103D that I recently had retipped, and a DL-S1 that I bought 5 months ago. It's not as full-sounding as the 103r, but it's more refined, particularly in the treble, where the 103 had a bit of tendency to sound a bit ragged or distorted, no matter what I tried with its setup. Maybe the S1 isn't quite as "downtown" sounding as the 103, but it's definitely a more sophisticated older brother. The 103D is a great cartridge too, BTW - I wish Denon would put it back into production, but I doubt they will. I've read rumors that the S1 is scheduled to be discontinued, which is a shame, if true.
As far as bass goes, the S1 isn't as fulsome subjectively as the lower-range 103, but it is certainly better defined and tauter. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.
You might end up with one yourself, Andy, as an upgrade over your DL-103 :)
Marco.
Possibly mate, but l am really enjoying my DL103, in my, plus l am a bit nervous that l will lose the boogie factor l am getting, l will most certainly in the near future upgrade the cartridge, but like the musicality l have at the moment.
Hi Trey,
Nice to see you popping in again and thanks for your input, which is much appreciated :)
I haven't replied on this board in a loooong time...but I confidently predict you'll love the DL-S1. With a wide-band SUT or the like to boost that delicate signal, it's a great distillation of the Denon sound.
That's exactly what I suspected and was hoping for! What you describe with the following is also spot on, in terms of what I thought would be the case:
It's not as full-sounding as the 103r, but it's more refined, particularly in the treble, where the 103 had a bit of tendency to sound a bit ragged or distorted, no matter what I tried with its setup. Maybe the S1 isn't quite as "downtown" sounding as the 103, but it's definitely a more sophisticated older brother.
<Snip>
As far as bass goes, the S1 isn't as fulsome subjectively as the lower-range 103, but it is certainly better defined and tauter.
With having very large and efficient speakers, featuring 15" Tannoy DCs, driven by a powerful push-pull valve amp, and a system full of components that produce a weighty and 'purposeful' sound, there is no lack of bass, so if the DL-S1 is a little leaner sounding in that area, it won't be perceived as a negative. Therefore, coupled with its undoubted refinement, the Denon will offer a slightly different style of presentation than I'm used to from my SPU - and one which I'm very much looking forward to hearing.
I've read rumors that the S1 is scheduled to be discontinued, which is a shame, if true. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.
I've also heard that. It’s one of the reasons why I nabbed one now whilst the price was good and they're still available. Clearly these are specialist items. Apparently, Denon produce them in very small batches on a production run, and then supply them to selected outlets. Once those are sold, there's a long waiting list for the next batch to be produced.
I suspect that the limited demand for the DL-S1, compared with their more mainstream designs, is making it more and more costly/difficult for Denon to facilitate their production. Therefore, once the one I'm waiting for arrives, and I express my thoughts on it, if anyone likes my description of how it sounds, and feels that they have a suitable system with which to optimise it, my advice would be to snap one up while you can, as it's destined to go the way of the 103SA!
Marco.
Possibly mate, but l am really enjoying my DL103, in my, plus l am a bit nervous that l will lose the boogie factor l am getting, l will most certainly in the near future upgrade the cartridge, but like the musicality l have at the moment.
No worries, dude - I totally understand. I'm just pleased that the 103 hit the spot! Told you it would, didn't I? ;)
Marco.
No worries, dude - I totally understand. I'm just pleased that the 103 hit the spot! Told you it would, didn't I? ;)
Marco.
Not in an SME V you said:ner:, l did wonder about this myself, especially using the Gyrodec and it's suspension, but the Gyro/SME V/Denon DL103, bops along nicely! l am just getting the hang of the deck and do concede a better cartridge is the way to go, by the wayl Al brought round his SUT purchased from you and we had a brief play with it, very nice piece of kit!
Not in an SME V you said
And Marco would be right ;) It works in an SME but the SME is no where optimal for the 103 it's about 12~15g short on mass...been there, got the T shirt etc... Oh, and this was on a Gyro SE / Orbe platter and DC/NC motor combo.
Not in an SME V you said:ner:, l did wonder about this myself, especially using the Gyrodec and it's suspension, but the Gyro/SME V/Denon DL103, bops along nicely! l am just getting the hang of the deck and do concede a better cartridge is the way to go, by the wayl Al brought round his SUT purchased from you and we had a brief play with it, very nice piece of kit!
Cool - I'm glad it works. I agonised for ages over selling it, as I really liked what it did in my system. However, the PH head amp was just that bit better overall, and so the ST-80SE was simply not being used as much as it should. Therefore, I decided to let it go and allow someone else to enjoy it.
I'm glad it ended up with Al, because after having heard his system at Scalford, I thought it would gel with the rest of his kit and hit the spot nicely. I couldn't believe he was bypassing the superb, hard-wired valve phono stage in his Croft, in order to hook up a decent (but no more than average) external MC stage!! :doh:
Talk about doing things 'arse about face'.... :D
The thing is too, the Croft MM phono stage is eminently tweakable, so with some judicious mods (or even just by fitting better valves), he could turn it into something rather special, which when used in conjunction with the ST-80SE, will produce stunning sounding music. Therefore, he's got a whole world of fun ahead of him! :eyebrows:
As for the DL-103, it will work reasonably well on your SME V, but as Neal correctly states, it won't be anywhere near optimised. If you want to do that, swap your V for a Series M2, and add some extra mass to the headshell. Honestly, you'll be stunned at the results it achieves with your 103, and you can spend the change you get on more music!
:trust:
Marco.
Returning to the DL-S1, I found this YouTube video, which within the limitations of the accompanying system, the dubious taste in music and the rather 'broken vehicle' of listening via the Internet, shows some promise:
k6LoD5rFgs8
Marco.
Beobloke
02-04-2014, 15:34
There's not much "limitation" where that turntable and arm are concerned, I reckon!
:eek:
Returning to the DL-S1, I found this YouTube video, which within the limitations of the accompanying system, the dubious taste in music and the rather 'broken vehicle' of listening via the Internet, shows some promise:
k6LoD5rFgs8
Marco.
l have a Della Reese LP, that l tried to offload on AudioAl, even he knocked that one back.:lol:
There's not much "limitation" where that turntable and arm are concerned, I reckon!
:eek:
Why you say so, mansab? Which T/T and arm is it, incidentally? :)
Marco.
l have a Della Reese LP, that l tried to offload on AudioAl, even he knocked that one back.:lol:
Nothing wrong with Della ;)
http://youtu.be/ycxqCOVEV9o
That's a much better song, Simon! Interesting T/T and arm... Any idea what it is? :)
Marco.
Just purloined these rather excellent (and hard to obtain) AT headshell leads, which will replace the el-cheapo ones supplied with the following headshell:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/811/ierx.jpg
Some info from the manufacturer:
The Quattro are a set of headshell leads made with a balanced mix of four types of gold clad +7 N-OFC + PCOCC + OFC, the leads are crimped with 24K gold-plated chip lead, the Quattro hybrid conductor has 12 strands with a diameter of 0.18mm. This construction gives a quiet and gentle tone with a sense of transparency to the sound.
Those will be used with my NOS AT MG-10 magnesium headshell (along with the Denon DL-S1):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/69/jms4.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/23/yidx.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/845/d6d1.jpg
Above pics are of the actual headshell I bought from ebay. As you can see, it's mint - and it only cost me $30 (including shipping) from the States! They normally cost $69.00, plus shipping, from Audiocubes: http://www.audiocubes2.com/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/13/products_id/481
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Btw, whilst I was looking at the Audiocubes site I noticed this in their description of the DL-S1:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/14/products_id/40
Features:
A new frontier of high quality sound is made possible from the superfine coil that is made with 6N copper and pure gold compound...
I guess that refers to what was mentioned earlier in the product description for the DL-S1:
"A newly developed ultra fine wire combining pure gold and 6N copper is used in the voltage generating coil."
Most interesting....
Marco.
P.S Some difference in the price of the cartridge there, too... $1299.99 is roughly £780 - I only paid £500 for mine!!
Beobloke
03-04-2014, 07:52
Why you say so, mansab? Which T/T and arm is it, incidentally? :)
Marco.
The turntable is a Micro Seiki DDL-150 - http://www.thevintageknob.org/micro_seiki-DDL-150.html and the arm is an SAEC W308 http://www.fonolab.com/service-saec.html
The arm is of late 1970s vintage and, although it uses knife edge bearings like the SME 3009, it's built on a much larger scale and is a higher mass design. Fairly rare outside Japan and reputedly very good indeed - and the sort of thing that's right up your street I'd have thought!
Oh, and the deck in Simon's video is a Marantz 6300. I really should get out more...
Yesh, but we rely on you, darling, to be suitably anal!! :D
Thanks for the info. Yup, those T/Ts are right up my alley, although not aesthetically, in the case of the Micro Seiki, as I hate that plastic looking 'faux rosewood' veneer the Japs *so* love! :spew:
However, I'm sure that the DDL-150 sounds superb.
It certainly appears to, taking into consideration the limitations of listening to an MP3 file on YouTube. The SAEC tonearm is just simply GORGEOUS and defines pretty much what I consider as 'the perfect tonearm' (although from the link you supplied, the WE-308SX hits the spot most). The engineering quality there is simply to be marvelled at... Only the Japs can do it like that!
Look-wise, (and it doesn't seem to sound too shabby either) I much prefer the Marantz 6300. Isn't it crazy, and somewhat of a scandal, how all these superb D/D turntables never made it to our shores during the heyday of vinyl replay (most likely because of the belt-drive 'superiority' bullshit we were fed at time)?
Incidentally, do you have any thoughts on the Denon DL-S1? You know that I value your opinion :)
Marco.
Beobloke
03-04-2014, 08:55
Although, when it comes to turntables, I am a firm subscriber to the theory that it's not how you do it, but how well you do it, as someone once commented to me "If the best way to drive a platter really is with a little Philips motor and a rubber band, then why did the Japanese throw so much R&D time and money into developing direct drive turntables?"
As to the DL-S1, I've not heard one. Be interesting to hear your thoughts on it, especially comapred to the DL-103, which I am familiar with!
Although, when it comes to turntables, I am a firm subscriber to the theory that it's not how you do it, but how well you do it, as someone once commented to me "If the best way to drive a platter really is with a little Philips motor and a rubber band, then why did the Japanese throw so much R&D time and money into developing direct drive turntables?"
Ha - I couldn't agree more!! :yesbruv:
As to the DL-S1, I've not heard one. Be interesting to hear your thoughts on it, especially comapred to the DL-103, which I am familiar with!
I'm expecting it to be the latter's more refined younger brother :)
Marco.
More expectation bias creeping in? :lol:
:ner:
Only kidding....
Yesh, from now on, jusht call me exshpectashion biash-boy: cartridges, T/T bearing-base plates - you name it. I just automatically *know* they'll be excellent!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Although, when it comes to turntables, I am a firm subscriber to the theory that it's not how you do it, but how well you do it, as someone once commented to me "If the best way to drive a platter really is with a little Philips motor and a rubber band, then why did the Japanese throw so much R&D time and money into developing direct drive turntables?"
That wold be a more compelling argument if the Japanese hadn't also spent a huge amount of R&D time and money developing belt and thread drive turntables - particularly their hi-end designs!
Precisely, Mark - but those high-end thread-drive designs don't use a piss-poor little Philips motor or an elastic band! ;)
Marco.
Not all their 'high-end' designs are thread drive, there are also belt drives. I'm working on my new turntable now - it will be belt driven (albeit a very carefully made one). To be honest, drawing conclusions about a turntables performance from the drive method used is about as justified as judging a cars performance on the size of its wheels.
Yes, I know. I totally agree - I was just pulling your leg! ;)
Marco.
15 minutes in the naughty corner for you I think!
Can I get a nice hard spank like the last time? :eyebrows:
Anyway, tell us about your new turntable design....
:)
Marco.
chris@panteg
05-04-2014, 21:14
Not all their 'high-end' designs are thread drive, there are also belt drives. I'm working on my new turntable now - it will be belt driven (albeit a very carefully made one). To be honest, drawing conclusions about a turntables performance from the drive method used is about as justified as judging a cars performance on the size of its wheels.
Quite right.
Can I get a nice hard spank like the last time? :eyebrows:
Anyway, tell us about your new turntable design....
:)
Marco.
Ewe are weird oh great forum owner.
:ner::ner:
All going well, the DL-S1 is due to land tomorrow at Marco towers..... :yay:
Marco.
Audio Al
08-04-2014, 16:23
You have a runway in your garden :respect:
Of course - how else do you think I get the private jet in?
Marco.
Welcome to the UK, meesta DL-S1!! :champagne: :partytime:
[Doubt I'll get a chance to set it up, though, until tomorrow].
Marco.
Of course - how else do you think I get the private jet in?
Marco.
To let people escape more like.:)
Welcome to the UK, meesta DL-S1!! :champagne: :partytime:
[Doubt I'll get a chance to set it up, though, until tomorrow].
Marco.
:popcorn:
I'm interested to hear your thoughts exshpectashion biash-boy. ;)
Well come on the masses are waiting......:popcorn:
My SAE 1000LT arrived today, and I will be in the process of fitting it as soon as I have pressed the reply button.
What's your excuse?:eyebrows:
Lol - curiosity got the better of me, so I've just fitted it, set it up, and spun a few well-known tunes... Let's just say that this sums up my initial reaction to the sound:
:) :) :carrot: :carrot: :thumbsup:
More later!
Marco.
My SAE 1000LT arrived today, and I will be in the process of fitting it as soon as I have pressed the reply button.
What's your excuse?:eyebrows:
I love my SAE 1000E, but it took a while to get on-song. For the first couple of hours, it was really, really bad - no bass, no treble - but after four hours or so, it started to loosen up and continued to improve steadily up to the twenty-odd hour mark at which point it was like someone threw a switch and everything just snapped into place. Wouldn't be surprised if your 1000LT doesn't need the same kind of time to run in.
Ok, so having had a good few hours now assessing the beastie, I can say most definitely I like it and that it's an interesting and worthwhile alternative to my SPU :)
It certainly has a different sound to the latter. The first thing that was apparent when the stylus hit the groove was that hugely extended high-frequency response we discussed earlier, which makes for a very crisply defined, sparkly, airy and spacious top-end, but without the slightest hint of 'edge'. The DL-S1 is a very 'clean' sounding cartridge, and analytical in the level of detail retrieval it offers, but never to the extent that the masses of information it throws at you becomes overbearing.
The midrange is wide-open and hugely communicative, such that voices and instruments are rendered with convincing realism and clarity. Bass is tight, rhythmic, tuneful and extended (when the music demands), but without an ounce of flab. The DL-S1 doesn't underpin music with a forceful authority in the lower registers, in the way of the SPU, but it is not bass-light (at least in my system). Essentially, the DL-S1 is a very 'accurate' sounding cartridge, but it also has 'soul', and with beat-driven music it can boogie, too!
It doesn't have quite the 'funkiness' and 'ballsy' rhythmic drive of the various derivatives of the DL-103; the DL-S1 is altogether more sophisticated and refined sounding, but it still has plenty of 'fun factor' and can carry a tune with the best of them, turning pretty much any style of music you throw at it into a rewarding and entertaining listen.
I suspect that it still needs a bit more running in, as I can hear a slight 'tightness', indicating that the sound hasn't yet fully 'fleshed out', but as more hours are being put on it, it's gradually opening up and unleashing its considerable talents, and fulfilling its credentials as a rather enthralling music-making device.
One of DL-S1's real strengths is that it's a superb tracker, and so it positively sails through rather 'difficult' material which would cause the SPU (and most cartridges) some concern, and so even with a supposedly 'inferior' stylus profile, I can observe no obvious sonic weaknesses over the SPU's line-contact Replicant design. Even at the ends of sides on albums (where traditionally line-contact styli come into their own), there is no end of side distortion, even with highly modulated material - the DL-S1 stays clean right to the musical death!
It sounds best tracking at 1.45g (with anti-skate set at 1.25g), and just fine loaded at 100ohms, through my MC head amp, although I may experiment a little in that area. Gain is also not an issue, as indeed I suspected, because the Paul Hynes head amp packs an almighty wallop! I have to say that I'm really pleased with the synergy achieved with the PH head amp and the Croft's valve MM phono stage. Once the DL-S1 has run-in fully, its performance will be in the top rank, which is quite remarkable considering that we're talking about a low-output MC cartridge that 'only' costs £500.
I've still to take delivery of the Audio-Technica A-6106 headshell leads, so fitting those should further improve matters. The DL-S1 certainly seems to like the Audio Technica MG-10 magnesium headshell, where mass appears to be near-optimal. I've also ordered one of these chaps: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171070144679 as I'm curious to see if the graphite stabiliser can offer any further sonic improvements.
All-in-all, I'm delighted with my purchase of the DL-S1 and will continue listening to music on it, as it runs in from new. I'll add some more comments in due course, but that's it for now folks! :cool:
Marco.
Incidentally, these are the features of the DL-S1, as outlined in the owner's manual:
Newly developed ultra-fine wire combining pure gold and 6N copper
- used in the voltage-generating coil. By combining the excellent qualities of gold and copper, a pure and clean analog sound quality has been achieved.
Stable analog reproduction via superb tracing ability
- use of a tapered cantilever, a non-magnetic coil bobbin and a 0.07mm square micro-stylus chip, have allowed a reduction of the effective mass of the vibration system, a lowering of the mechanical impedance, and stable tracing of the grooves in the record.
Denon's unique 2-way dumping system
- the unique Denon two-way dumping system has been employed to suppress the tonal variations, due to changes in room temperature, and at the same time to obtain level frequency characteristics.
Elimination of unwanted vibrations with carefully selected materials
- a ceramic frame and highly rigid aluminium body, which has received a double alumite treatment, eliminate unwanted vibrations. The cartridge can be mounted in the headshell with four screws.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
I've found that the latter aids rigidity and really makes for the most solid coupling of the cartridge to the headshell :)
Aside from that, the technical features above appear to result in some unique sonic traits I've so far not heard in other MC cartridges.
Marco.
thankyoumisterman
10-04-2014, 00:27
Ah, I thought you'd dig it. If I could level only one criticism of the S1, it's that it doesn't pull a bit more bass depth out of LPs that really have it - but that's really a minor quibble when the rest of what the cartridge does is so damned good. I haven't heard your particular version of the SPU, but when compared to an old-fashioned of same, the S1 doesn't kick the sound out on its ass through the speakers! :lol:
Altogether a great bargain, and I do believe I'll order another to have on hand if Denon has truly decided to close down production on it. FWIW, the Cinemag Sky30 can be configured neatly around S1's output and impedance characteristics and works exceptionally well into a moving magnet tubed phono stage.
I look forward to hearing it into the VIDA, Marco. Sounds like it's going to have a somewhat different presentation from the Shelter.
Hi Trey,
Ah, I thought you'd dig it.
I do! It's unquestionably a superb cartridge and a worthwhile alternative to my SPU :)
If I could level only one criticism of the S1, it's that it doesn't pull a bit more bass depth out of LPs that really have it - but that's really a minor quibble when the rest of what the cartridge does is so damned good. I haven't heard your particular version of the SPU, but when compared to an old-fashioned of same, the S1 doesn't kick the sound out on its ass through the speakers!
Lol... I know what you mean. The SPU (and DL-103) drive the bass along with an infectious 'thrust', and superimpose their low-end authority onto the music. The DL-S1 is somewhat gentler in that respect, but I've found doesn't lack any genuine low-end extension when the music demands.
For example, last night I was listening to an audiophile pressing, on London records, of 'The Three Cornered Hat', by Manuel de Falla, shown here: http://www.amazon.com/Falla-Three-Cornered-Ernest-Ansermet/dp/B003ZXOF78/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0S0D9W0EQGWQ27NE7QGK and when the orchestra starts to 'let loose', the lowest bass notes were easily heard (and felt), as they thundered through the speakers with a rather entertaining visceral intensity! :eek:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/827/a4g3.jpg
YouTube video of the perfomance, for those interested:
0WZBOF-9t64
Therefore, when deep bass is present in the recording, the DL-S1 lets it through, unhindered, in all its glory. It just doesn't 'lead with its ass', in the way of a DL-103 or SPU, and so because it handles low frequencies in a less 'obvious' way, it can appear as being bass-light in comparison.
Furthermore, I suspect that the DL-S1 is one of those cartridges that requires a lengthy time for run-in, as the more it's being used, the more I can hear the sound 'fleshing out', particularly the bass, which has now all but lost its initial somewhat frigid reticence. Even the (already superlative) mid and top-end has benefited. The sheer clarity and level of musical analysis is now nothing short of breathtaking!
Altogether a great bargain, and I do believe I'll order another to have on hand if Denon has truly decided to close down production on it.
I would, if I were you. Judging by what I've heard so far, the DL-S1 is an unmitigated bargain and, when partnered with the right equipment, delivers a sonic performance that belies its low price, in high-end terms. Make no mistake: get it right, and this is a £2-3k cartridge for £500!
In that respect, it continues the Denon tradition of delivering superb SPPV. However, the DL-S1 is a demanding design, and so the use of a suitably high-quality turntable, tonearm (and especially) high-gain phono stage/head amp and/or SUT is mandatory. As such, it would be inadvisable using it with equipment that would normally partner a £500 cartridge, as you will simply not hear it at its best.
FWIW, the Cinemag Sky30 can be configured neatly around S1's output and impedance characteristics and works exceptionally well into a moving magnet tubed phono stage.
Thanks for that. It looks a very nice thing. I'll certainly keep note of the Cinemag, should I wish to revisit the SUT route. At the moment, I reckon that the PH head amp is about 85% optimised for the DL-S1. The remaining 15% will come with some further tweaking! :cool:
Marco.
kininigin
10-04-2014, 07:20
Congrats on the new cart Marco.So will it be used only to play certain types of music? If so,what types does it lean towards,if any that is?
Hi Darren,
Cheers, dude! :cool:
I wouldn't hesitate using the DL-S1 with all types of music, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice for rock, pop or dance, although it is by no means a slouch in those areas. A DL-103 (stock or modified), however, has a more 'boppy' style of presentation, which lends itself better to reproducing that type of music with the required foot-tapping 'fun factor'.
Judging by what I've heard so far, the DL-S1 excels with classical music, whether full-scale or the gentler, more intimate stuff, as indeed was indicated by last night's listening session, not only with the Manuel Falla piece, but subsequent musical performances from Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich, Chopin and Bizet, where the results were simply breathtaking.
As such, by being voiced to excel with those genres of music, it also handles acoustic material (rock or classical - chamber and choral music is also hauntingly atmospheric), female/male vocals and jazz, with similar aplomb, although with the latter it lacks the dynamic alacrity and sheer vivacity of the SPU, especially with trumpet, sax and piano.
In short, I'm not sure if the DL-S1 would be quite your thing, but it's certainly a valuable addition to my cartridge 'arsenal', especially with my ever-growing collection of classical music on vinyl.
Marco.
kininigin
10-04-2014, 08:06
Hi Darren,
Cheers, dude! :cool:
In short, I'm not sure if the DL-S1 would be quite your thing, but it's certainly a valuable addition to my cartridge 'arsenal', especially with my ever-growing collection of classical music.
Marco.
As you have stated in your previous post,by the time you have suitable partnering equipment,it's costing a fair whack! So it's not something i would be going for at this moment in time! I need to get my deck sorted in other areas first as it's back to stock atm! I'm not massive fan of classical,but when i first heard Beethoven's second movent of symphony No 7 (i think that's how you say it!) in a film,i was almost moved to tears! I still get the same effect everytime i play it! I have no idea why this happens! :scratch: It is an amazing piece though.
julesd68
10-04-2014, 10:36
I wouldn't hesitate to use the DL-S1 with all types of music, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice for rock, pop or dance, although it is by no means a slouch in those areas. A DL-103 (stock or modified), however, has a more 'boppy' style of presentation, which lends itself better to reproducing that type of music with the required foot-tapping 'fun factor'.
Marco - I'm interested to know how you rate the 103 with classical music - is it refined enough to do it justice?
Hi Jules,
Generally, no. It's not a cartridge that, in stock form, I'd usually recommend to people who listen mainly to classical music. It can sound quite good on some stuff, but crescendos and heavily modulated material usually catch it out (due mainly to a somewhat ragged treble), and also end of side distortion can often be an issue with the conical tip.
However, if a 103 is fitted with a nice line-contact stylus (and also shed of its resonant plastic housing), then it becomes a whole different animal (where the above issues are largely eradicated), and in that scenario, the 103 would be superb with pretty much any music.
In summary, I'd advise against using it for classical music if you're unable or unwilling to modify it from stock, as described above, although much depends on how fussy you are and also how well, or otherwise, a stock 103 gels in your system. In some circumstances its limitations may not be as apparent as they are in other systems.
Hope this helps! :)
Marco.
thankyoumisterman
10-04-2014, 16:30
I agree that the stock 103 doesn't quite do the trick with classical music, especially big orchestral work. The somewhat ragged upper treble doesn't flatter really dynamic symphonic music. And yes, the conical does tend to start giving off a kind of unpleasant inner groove distortion on many LPs.
I do wish Denon would commence production of the Denon 103D anew - it's a great combination of some of the punchy, fun 103 and the more refined attributes of their upper range of cartridges. I have an older version of the 103D retipped by Soundsmith here in the U.S., and it's a corker - but a real pain in the ass to set up, due to its new line-contact stylus.
Well, it seems Marco is very well set for listening for some years!
Marco, are you familiar with the DL304? I'd be interested to know how it compares to the DL-S1. Superficially, I would expect it to be closer in character to the DL-S1 than the 103 is.
Hi Trey,
Indeed - it's going to be interesting swapping back to the SPU later, and finding out how I instantly react, as the DL-S1 possesses a repertoire of talents not easily replicated (far less bettered) by other cartridges. I'm really delighted that I took a punt on it, and wouldn't hesitate advising others doing the same, if they think it would fit the bill and have the kit required to optimise it :)
Agreed about the 103D, and indeed the 103M, if you can find one. The DL-S1 is remarkably close in overall sonic signature and musical presentation to the latter, but probably with a touch more overall refinement.
Tell me about line-contact styli! :doh: I know *exactly* what you're referring to, in terms of set-up, as they reveal any tiny error in the adjustment of VTA, VTF and azimuth. In that respect, it took me AGES to dial in my SPU Royal, as its Replicant stylus is so fooking accurate. However, once you get it right, the musical rewards are substantial, so persevere with that 103D!
Marco.
Hi Shane,
Marco, are you familiar with the DL304? I'd be interested to know how it compares to the DL-S1. Superficially, I would expect it to be closer in character to the DL-S1 than the 103 is.
It is and it isn't... The cartridge that the DL-S1 sounds most like is the (now long discontinued and rare as rocking horse shit) DL-103M.
Yup, I've used a DL-304 in the past (there's pretty much no Denon cartridge I haven't had at some point), and whilst I know where you're coming from, as they share both an electrical and physical resemblance, the 304 is an overall brighter sounding cartridge with more of a distinct 'hi-fi sound'.
The DL-S1 isn't like that. Yes, it ticks all the respective 'hi-fi boxes' with aplomb, but it does it in a way without making that obvious, and so one simply revels in the musical benefits its audiophile prowess provides, rather than becoming 'emotionally detached' by the somewhat ethereal, tonally dry sound of the DL-304, in comparison with that of its more illustrious brother.
Essentially, the DL-304 lacks 'soul' and is somewhat a victim of its 'audiophile voicing', whereas the DL-S1 isn't: it has plenty of soul, whilst still excelling at the expected, and rather prosaic hi-fi considerations. When optimised, its balance is pretty much spot-on. I guess that's why it's Denon's top cartridge! :)
Marco.
julesd68
10-04-2014, 17:59
In summary, I'd advise against using it for classical music if you're unable or unwilling to modify it from stock, as described above, although much depends on how fussy you are and also how well, or otherwise, a stock 103 gels in your system. In some circumstances its limitations may not be as apparent as they are in other systems.
Hope this helps! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Most helpful indeed. The combination of my Garrott cart with the hybrid amp is quite sublime with classical music and am slightly reticent to change it. However it is just a little on the 'soft' side with my 70's rock lp's. This is more down to the amp than cart, but a slightly more explicit cart could be worth a try - am still wondering if there is a cart that can 'do it all' out there and for sensible money. I was wondering about the 103R as I recently acquired a nice little Lentek head-amp which will of course be a good match. Not much point in buying one and changing body and stylus as this would bring it up to the price of the DL-S1 I think!
Thanks Marco, much food for thought!
Hi Jules,
That's the trouble with hi-fi: there's never a 'free lunch', and so some sort of trade-off is inevitable. Like you say, a cartridge that excels with classical music rarely pulls off the same trick with rock and pop, as the requirements are somewhat different. That is precisely why I've invested in a DL-S1! :)
A 103R will be better than a stock 103, but it's still not ideal for classical music. You have to watch the 103R, as it can get a bit 'shouty' in some systems, and it too has a tendency towards brightness (although loading can help here), especially if the partnering tonearm has insufficient mass. You could consider a DL-301II, which has a higher output (0.4mV) and a nice 'punchy' and open sound.
Ironically, as I've just slated the DL-304, if you were to use it solely for playing classical music, its traits (and overall voicing) would be more suited to accurately reproducing that genre of music, so you could give one of those a go. Another option would be the 103Pro, as the Highphonic boys have modified it to be a rather more musically mellifluous item than the stock DL-103, and it would sing its heart out through your Lentek head amp.
Is your Lentek completely original? If so, if you want, I could loan you my Nick G-modified one, which is a considerable step-up from the stock unit, and if you like what it does, you could get Nick to carry out similar (fairly inexpensive) modifications to yours - just a thought! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco, much food for thought!
You're welcome, Shane :)
Marco.
jandl100
10-04-2014, 19:19
Marco, are you familiar with the DL304? I'd be interested to know how it compares to the DL-S1. Superficially, I would expect it to be closer in character to the DL-S1 than the 103 is.
Bearing in mind what Marco has just posted, nonetheless if you just plunk a DL-S1 in a fairly basic tt rig where a 103 is happy, you can take a line from the 103, lighten the balance and increase refinement to get to a 304 and take that line even further and you get to the S1.
At least that was my experience.
I'd say you need the tt system sophistication, skills and investment of Marco to get the best out of the 304 and even more so for the S1.
Check out my comments on my Denon cart group review here http://hifipig.com/a-cacophony-of-cartridges-part-2-denon-mcs/
Just my 2-penneth. :)
--- note also the comments at the end of my review from two folks - I am not alone! ;)
thankyoumisterman
10-04-2014, 19:34
I also agree that the 304 is a bit "sanitized" compared to the other stars of the Denon lineup. If most of what you listen to is classical or small group acoustic music, it might, however, be just the thing for you. The thing is, the price is just close enough to the DL-S1 here in the States that it only makes sense to jump to the top of the line S1. I'm not sure what the price disparity might be in the U.K. The Zu Denon I have addresses some of the issues inherent in the stock 103, but that could be also be done with an aftermarket aluminum or heavy wood body and potting the internals after setting the cartridge into the new case. I can vouch for the aluminum body and stylus guard sold on Audiogon by "daiwok", who also posts on lencoheaven.net; it's a quality aftermarket modification.
Marco, I see that you run an amp with KT120 tubes - do you find them to be a worthy successor to the various KT88s? My current amp can accept them with a bit of bias adjustment, but the transformers aren't stout enough to safely provide the full current that the 120s can put out - I just don't know if being unable to fully exploit the tube's potential would be worth the outlay over the KT88s I'm currently running.
thankyoumisterman
10-04-2014, 19:38
Bearing in mind what Marco has just posted, nonetheless if you just plunk a DL-S1 in a fairly basic tt rig where a 103 is happy, you can take a line from the 103, lighten the balance and increase refinement to get to a 304 and take that line even further and you get to the S1.
At least that was my experience.
I'd say you need the tt system sophistication, skills and investment of Marco to get the best out of the 304 and even more so for the S1.
Check out my comments on my Denon cart group review here http://hifipig.com/a-cacophony-of-cartridges-part-2-denon-mcs/
Just my 2-penneth. :)
--- note also the comments at the end of my review from two folks - I am not alone! ;)
I hadn't read your website before - some good stuff there! You'd already anticipated some of the very things discussed here. I liked your take on the Cartridge Man, which is probably a much better deal purchased in the U.K. - the price is rather high over here in the States for a moving iron cartridge, as good as it is.
Hi Trey,
I'll get to your tube query in a moment. In the meantime, I've just found this old thread on AoS, in reference to the DL-S1:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22690-SUT-for-Denon-DL-S1
:interesting: Stephen seems rather happy with his!
Marco.
jandl100
10-04-2014, 20:30
I hadn't read your website before - some good stuff there!
Thanks for the compliment - but it's not my website, I'm just one of the contributing reviewers. :)
Hi Trey,
I also agree that the 304 is a bit "sanitized" compared to the other stars of the Denon lineup. If most of what you listen to is classical or small group acoustic music, it might, however, be just the thing for you.
I would agree with that. It could just be the ticket for Jules, as indeed could a DL-301II, which has a different presentation again that would lend itself to playing a wide variety of music, not just classical/acoustic.
The Zu Denon I have addresses some of the issues inherent in the stock 103, but that could be also be done with an aftermarket aluminum or heavy wood body and potting the internals after setting the cartridge into the new case. I can vouch for the aluminum body and stylus guard sold on Audiogon by "daiwok", who also posts on lencoheaven.net; it's a quality aftermarket modification.
Yup, that would be another option. The Zu-modded DL-103 is arguably the best of the 're-bodied breed', and up there with the 103SA. However, you're still dealing with the 103's stock conical stylus, with its inherent limitations, not best served for optimising classical music, which requires a tip with more finesse to tease out the inherent subtleties in that genre of music.
Marco, I see that you run an amp with KT120 tubes - do you find them to be a worthy successor to the various KT88s? My current amp can accept them with a bit of bias adjustment, but the transformers aren't stout enough to safely provide the full current that the 120s can put out - I just don't know if being unable to fully exploit the tube's potential would be worth the outlay over the KT88s I'm currently running.
The 120s are superb, and IMO smoke ANY KT88, but the best are the hand-selected, matched and cryo'd ones from Upscale Audio in the States (good video to watch here): http://www.upscaleaudio.com/tung-sol-kt120/
That's where I got mine from, and they are superb. The dudes at Upscale are total perfectionists!
*HOWEVER* make sure that your amplifier can SAFELY take KT120s, by FIRST checking with the manufacturer and/or a qualified electronics engineer.
I'll shortly be ordering some cryo'd KT150s from Upscale, as my Copper amp is also safe to use with those. I'm hopeful that they will kick ass even more than the 120s!! :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
Marco.
julesd68
10-04-2014, 22:39
Hi Jules,
That's the trouble with hi-fi: there's never a 'free lunch', and so some sort of trade-off is inevitable. Like you say, a cartridge that excels with classical music rarely pulls off the same trick with rock and pop, as the requirements are somewhat different. That is precisely why I've invested in a DL-S1! :)
A 103R will be better than a stock 103, but it's still not ideal for classical music. You have to watch the 103R, as it can get a bit 'shouty' in some systems, and it too has a tendency towards brightness (although loading can help here), especially if the partnering tonearm has insufficient mass. You could consider a DL-301II, which has a higher output (0.4mV) and a nice 'punchy' and open sound.
Ironically, as I've just slated the DL-304, if you were to use it solely for playing classical music, its traits (and overall voicing) would be more suited to accurately reproducing that genre of music, so you could give one of those a go. Another option would be the 103Pro, as the Highphonic boys have modified it to be a rather more musically mellifluous item than the stock DL-103, and it would sing its heart out through your Lentek head amp.
Is your Lentek completely original? If so, if you want, I could loan you my Nick G-modified one, which is a considerable step-up from the stock unit, and if you like what it does, you could get Nick to carry out similar (fairly inexpensive) modifications to yours - just a thought! :cool:
Marco.
Many thanks for your kind offer! My Lentek is completely original - I'd like to see what it can do in its current state, and if I like what I hear I might well take you up on that. I read about the mods Nick did for you on an old thread. I don't think I will bother with the 304 as I think I will find it too polite for the likes of Black Sabbath!! The 103 pro is a new one for me and will do a bit of research into that. Cheers.
No worries, Jules. You can let me know about the Lentek. The Nick-modified one sounds sublime and is about 80% as good as my £1600 Paul Hynes head amp/SR5 PSU combo, at a mere fraction of the price! Defo worth a listen... :)
Here is the technical spec for the DL-103Pro, plucked from the Net (and details of how it differs from the stock 103):
The improvements (mainly cantilever and damper) as per their claims are:
little higher compliance 6cu with VTF2g+/-0.2g (original 5cu and VTF 2.5+/-2g),
improved (titan coated?) cantilever avoiding partial resonances, 20-55kHz (original 20-45kHz)
output 0.35mV (original 0.3mv) at 1kHz Lateral Modulation 5cm/s
Impedance 38 Ohm (original nominal 40 Ohm)
Separation 26dB (original nominal 25dB)
Having used one, I can tell you that it is a superb cartridge, and one of the best derivatives of the DL-103, arguably only outperformed by the (now discontinued) 103SA.
Available from here (as well as other Japanese outlets, such as Eifl): http://www.audio-accessory.com/denon_dl-103pro.html
As an aside, if you're not totally wedded to DL-103s, the new AT-33PTGII is also a fabulous cartridge and would be excellent with classical music: http://www.audio-accessory.com/audio-technica_at-33ptg_2.html
The AT is also a total bargain!
Marco.
thankyoumisterman
11-04-2014, 00:00
The 120s are superb, and IMO smoke ANY KT88, but the best are the hand-selected, matched and cryo'd ones from Upscale Audio in the States (good video to watch here): http://www.upscaleaudio.com/tung-sol-kt120/
That's where I got mine from, and they are superb. The dudes at Upscale are total perfectionists!
*HOWEVER* make sure that your amplifier can SAFELY take KT120s, by FIRST checking with the manufacturer and/or a qualified electronics engineer.
I'll shortly be ordering some cryo'd KT150s from Upscale, as my Copper amp is also safe to use with those. I'm hopeful that they will kick ass even more than the 120s!! :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
Marco.
Thanks. The amp I have now is essentially made for the KT88/6550 type, and the transformers are specified as such. The builder tells me he has used the Tung-Sol 120s with success, increasing the bias to accommodate the tube, but the amp just can't be run "balls to the wall" with the amount of current the Tung-Sols can maximally draw. He bumped bias down to a bit above his usual recommended levels and the transformers ran a bit warmer but well within specs. He just didn't believe the KT120s performed at their real potential in his particular amplifier, and thought the Primaluna Dialogue lineup would probably be a better option as an amp that can exploit the 120s more effectively.
Beobloke
11-04-2014, 08:17
That's the trouble with hi-fi: there's never a 'free lunch', and so some sort of trade-off is inevitable. Like you say, a cartridge that excels with classical music rarely pulls off the same trick with rock and pop, as the requirements are somewhat different..
Sorry, Marco, but I'm going to have to sneak in here and respectfully disagree with this.
A good cartridge is a good cartridge, full stop and it should be able to cope with any kind of music thrown at it. A cartridge (or indeed amplifier, pair of speakers, turntable etc) that "only good with xxxx music" isn't really 'good' at all, IMHO.
I agree. I don't think any really good system (or component) should favour one kind of music over another.
Sorry, Marco, but I'm going to have to sneak in here and respectfully disagree with this.
A good cartridge is a good cartridge, full stop and it should be able to cope with any kind of music thrown at it. A cartridge (or indeed amplifier, pair of speakers, turntable etc) that "only good with xxxx music" isn't really 'good' at all, IMHO.
Lol... After all that's been written, is that the only comment you can make?
I know where you're coming from, Adam, but the fact is that NO piece of hi-fi equipment is perfect, and therefore excels at every aspect of music reproduction, and that includes cartridges - or otherwise we'd all be using the same one! ;)
If you've read my comments properly, you'll have understood that the DL-S1, although excelling mostly with classical music, is far from being a 'one-trick pony'... I can assure you that it isn't. Last night I was listening to Jeff Buckley, The Beatles, Eric Clapton, Pink Floyd, Count Basie and Miles Davis, with the DL-S1 at the helm, and all were reproduced with a big cheesy grin on my chops!!
It's a perfectly valid and recognised fact, for example, that certain loudspeakers favour some genres of music more than others (e.g. Quad ESLs), but whilst being 'none too shabby' at reproducing the others - and one could extend that principle to almost any equipment. In that respect, a cartridge is no different.
Another example of this is the way that the Ortofon SPU handles jazz music, and how realistically it portrays the sound of saxophone, trumpet and piano. No other cartridge I've heard gets it so *right* in those areas, in a similar way to how very few (if any) conventional 'box' loudspeakers can compete with the midrange prowess of Quad ESLs (or other high-quality electrostatics), and how lifelike they make any musical information sound, reproduced at those frequencies.
In summary, that's kind of what I'm getting at with the DL-S1: it excels at accurately reproducing classical music, in the same way as electrostatic loudspeakers excel at midrange transparency, thus achieving their primary design goals, whilst simultaneously being more than adequate in other areas.
Anyway, the Audio-Technica AT6106 headshell leads and Isokinetik graphite cartridge stabiliser have arrived, so more toys to play with, and thus the possibility of extracting even more magic from the DL-S1... I'm off to have a play! :)
Marco.
I agree. I don't think any really good system (or component) should favour one kind of music over another.
Yes, Martin, but that's not what I'm saying (see my reply to Adam).
I'll be bringing the DL-S1 down with me, when we fit the MN bearing base-plate, so I'll demonstrate exactly what I mean, after which all will become blatantly clear :)
Marco.
jandl100
11-04-2014, 09:30
How sweetly naïve. ;)
If you have a perfect component / system (unachievable) then sure, it will play all music perfectly.
But any imperfection is likely to favour one musical genre more than another, simply because different music types make different demands on an audio system.
So, for example, a component good at classical is not necessarily what you want for techno. And vice versa. :exactly:
But any imperfection is likely to favour one musical genre more than another, simply because different music types make different demands on an audio system.
Agreed with the latter, but are you not conflating style of presentation with capability?
We all have a preference for style of presentation, but in my experience a system improvement usually improves all of my preferred music. Once a system reaches a level of all-round goodness, it should be able to handle anything played on it. After all, it doesn't know the difference between classical, jazz or rock, does it? I never go for upgrades or mods that work with only a particular type of music, in fact I can't see how that would or could work.
jandl100
11-04-2014, 09:52
I never go for upgrades or mods that work with only a particular type of music.
Oh yes you do.
We all do.
We are limited by the musics we listen to, however wide our musical tastes there is always a hell of a lot more music out there!
I've never heard a system that is equally good at everything. They all do some things better than others.
But I suspect this is something we will never agree on. :)
We are limited by the musics we listen to
Of course, and I can only play what I have in my collection.
However, I can only repeat "I don't think any really good system (or component) should favour one kind of music over another". Yes, all our systems have shortcomings, but the measure of a truly great system is one that could play anything well. That continues to be my target, anyway.
I do agree, but then what Jerry says also applies and makes sense.
Aside from that, regarding the DL-S1, could you read my post #156 (recently edited), particularly the summary, and confirm that you can see where I'm coming from? :)
Marco.
jandl100
11-04-2014, 10:08
Ah, that's fine for a "target" - but all systems I have heard fail to achieve it.
I'd rather have a system that plays 'my music' better than say some dubstepping techno. I'd buy quite a different system if I wanted to blast out 20Hz at 115dB.
Anyhow - good luck with achieving your goal!
Beobloke
11-04-2014, 10:41
I'd rather have a system that plays 'my music' better than say some dubstepping techno.
Yes, but therein lies the issue - what if dubstepping techno does make up part of 'your music'? I'm certainly not averse to a bit of this but it's a long way from being the only thing I listen to. Let me give you an example - last Friday night I found myself in the house on my own, with my new pair of speakers installed in my listening room and nothing in particular to do (well, actually I should have been painting some skirting boards but couldn't be a*sed!).
Consequently, (and I'm ashamed to admit it's far too long since I've done this) I plonked myself into my listening room for nearly 4 hours with a few beers and big pile of LPs and CDs and just listened to a load of 'my 'music'. The music in question ranged from Melody Gardot to Metallica, and inlcuded stops along the way at The Eagles, Sarah K, Bach, Deadmau5, Enya, London Grammar, Mozart, Disclosure, The The, Caravan and Pink Floyd. The cartridge happened to be my Audio Technica AT-OC9MLII which I like very much, and it did a cracking job of all of it. Exactly how many different cartridges should I really have used for all this do you reckon?!
;)
Anyhow - good luck with achieving your goal!
Thanks! :)
Indeed, Adam, but we're in danger of entering into the realms of absurdity... No-one's suggesting that one should have multiple cartridges, in order to reproduce every genre of music, although some do, including having three different tonearms fitted to the one T/T, with different cartridges on them, just for that very job! ;)
However, I think that classical music has particular demands that warrant (if one is willing to go there) the use of a certain components and/or cartridges which excel at satisfying those demands. In that respect, I can understand why Jerry, for example, builds his system in such a way as to achieve precisely that.
With the DL-S1, I have a cartridge that excels in certain areas that are important to me, whilst opening the window onto my favourite music in a different, but equally valid and entertaining way, to my SPU. That, muchacho, is the ticket to a whole world of fun, which for me is what high-end audio is all about!
:exactly:
Marco.
P.S I trust that you can see where I was coming from in my previous post, #156?
I don't know about anyone else, but if I didn't have a cartridge that didn't play Reggae as well as classical, blues, operatic, jazz or pop-pap, then I wouldn't entertain having it in my system because a good cartridge should be well capable of 20Hz-20KHz, with dynamics, trackability and resolution enough to do all musical genres justice. The Zyx can and so could the Shelter in my system before that. Now if we're talking about loudspeakers, then that's a different story. Few I listen to can do all music the justice it deserves. For me, a do-it-all speaker has to (by definition) be capable of full range performance, have adequate resolution and measure reasonably flat with good driver integration and phase response. That rules out around half the speakers sold today. Since not everyone has the room (or budget) for a good full range speaker, then taht is really where most compromises lay, and I go along with Jerry here on the speaker front since some are better at some genres than others. That, or we learn to set compromises we can live with.
Indeed, Paul. However, in all my years of experience, I've yet to hear ANY cartridge reproduce jazz music as well as an SPU, when suitably optimised, or classical music, as well as a Denon DL-S1, when optimised in a similar way. In audio, as in life, there are different tools for different jobs.
On top of that anyway, both cartridges reproduce all other genres of music extremely well, just not as well as they do with jazz or classical - and I like having cream on top of my cream cake, not just in the middle... ;)
Marco.
Having heard Jerry's system quite a few times, I actually think it is a pretty damned good all rounder. We have pretty different tastes in music, but the sh*te I like (rock, electronic, reggae) does come across very well on Jerry's gear, at least when he isn't using a blinking T-ampon with no power, LOL.:doh:
Really seriously good all rounders will have a pretty goddam flat in-room FR, I reckon.
Quite... If a system can reproduce full-scale orchestral music with convincing realism, then it should do the same trick with rock or reggae.
Loved the T-ampon remark, btw! Major lolz :D
Marco.
Well I've just fitted the AT-6106 (Quattro Hybrid) lead wires to my AT MG-10 magnesium headshell, and as before when upgrading the 'freebie' leads supplied with some detachable headshells, the (albeit subtle) sonic improvement gained is instantly noticeable and worthwhile.
Bass has become a bit more defined and tuneful, but the biggest improvement is in terms of overall clarity and filigree detail retrieval at high-frequencies, where things like high-hats and plucked guitar strings 'shimmer' more in the mix and sound 'crisper', through being reproduced with superior leading edge definition.
The headshell leads feature PCOCC (Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process) in their construction, as does the solid-copper wire in my Furukawa mains leads, and I recognise its familiar sonic signature.
For around £65, I'm pleased with the upgrade that these headshell leads have provided, and wouldn't hesitate giving them my highest recommendation :)
Right now, I'm off to enjoy some more tunes... Tomorrow I'll fit the Isokinetik graphite cartridge stabiliser and see what (if anything) that brings to the party!
Marco.
That is one of the funniest manufacturing process I have ever heard of.
"Oh no! Continuous casting", (which by the way is really bad for oxidation of the metal during the process, but is basically used to reduce costs, but also improve quality.
The metal needs to be cleaned of any oxidant, before passing on to the next stage).
It's still a funny name....
Funny name, perhaps, but the stuff sounds bloody good!!
:exactly:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
11-04-2014, 21:54
"Oh no! Continuous casting",
I understand that they use the Yoko from Dodo's eggs in the manufacturing process!
Wish I had seen this thread earlier.
The DL-S1 is a fine cart, I wound up purchasing a second DL-S1 thinking that I would never be interested in any other cart again - I found it that pleasing. I used the DL-S1 on an Audiomods V arm and an Audiocraft AC-3000 unipivot...oddly the cart seemed to prefer the Audiomods. I enjoyed this cart with all types of music, it paints a very well defined picture for the listener.
Then the "I need to try other carts" bug hit and I went on a spree of sorts...during that time I purchased the AT33PTG/II from ebay (2 in fact, because Canadian Club whiskey and ebay don't play nice). The AT33PTG/II quickly found favour with me, so much so that I sold one DL-S1. I have continued to try different carts but I'm becoming enamoured with the AT33PTG/II, so much so that the second DL-S1 was recently sold.
I've just purchased a Denon DP-7000 DD mounted in the most solid plinth I've seen to date...I also purchased an AT33E cart to run for a bit. I'm becoming quite interested in these AT carts and I'm looking forward to discovering what the 33E has to offer. And very soon I'll very likely order an Art7, although I'm still hungry to get hold of a DL-103D or DL-103M and go for an upgraded retip...we'll see.
No doubt the DL-S1 is a cart for music lovers...enjoy.
Top cartridge the DL-s1 but please keep it quiet or the audiophiles will save a grand and get the same quality!
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/835/bgam.jpg
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http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/834/skahh.jpg
I'll post some thoughts later on the sonic benefits of the (excellent) ISOkinetik Graphite cartridge stabiliser, which so far hasn't been discussed :)
Marco.
I'll post some thoughts later on the sonic benefits of the (excellent) ISOkinetik Graphite cartridge stabiliser, which so far hasn't been discussed :)
Marco.
Looking forward to reading about the stabiliser. :)
Wakefield Turntables
27-04-2014, 20:06
+1 with regards your comments.
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