Koetsu Re-tip advice needed....

[kroslos]

I recently had my Koetsu Onyx Platinum Diamond cartridge re-tipped. So as not to be a "flamer", I won't reference where/who did the re-tipping; however, I will say that the service, responsiveness, and the repair results were considerably below my expectations. Nonetheless, when I finally receive my cartridge back, mounted it, made all of the adjustments (with the Graham 1.5t arm, this is quite easy), and lowered it on to a reference piece of vinyl, to say that I was underwhelmed would be an understatement. I also have a Koetsu Rosewood Signature, so true A-to-B comparisons were easily performed and the re-tipped Onyx was so inferior - in all aspects - to the Rosewood Signature, that I had to ask "what's wrong here!?". So I contacted the re-tipper, and he finally replied after two weeks of my trying to chase him down. "Cartridge Loading" he tells me, and I tell him of the comparison to the Rosewood Signature and my past very vivid recollection of the sonic signature of the Onyx; furthermore, the loading of the two Koetsu's should be similar/same (never a problem in the past!); so what gives?

I should note that the Onyx had about 250-300 hours on it, and other than the fact that the diamond tip had come off the cantilever (children!!), everything else was fine. Additionally, since this is a "Diamond" series Onyx, when I shipped it to him for re-tipping, I requested that he NOT replace the cantilever - just the diamond tip.

So I'm looking for some advise here... 1) I've been told by some that Koetsu does not recommend re-tipping. An "authorized" Koetsu dealer/re-tipper will rebuild your entire cartridge using only the old body/housing of your old cartridge. OK fine - but for $3,000 to $4,000! Suggestions/input on this? 2) Should I ship the cartridge back to the re-tipper (he advised he'd accept it back and inspect it). However, I'm apprehensive of dealing with this guy again, and if putting a new, non-Koetsu, diamond on the cartridge will ever be "on a par" (or even close!) with the original, then why spend good money after bad? 3) If there are other Koetsu owners who have gone the re-tip route (not rebuild), what were the results, and if you were pleased with the outcome, where did you have the re-tipping done? And 4) Has anyone had their Koetsu completely rebuilt: if so, what were the results and where did you have it done?

Very frustrating and disappointing and would appreciate any feedback I can get.

Kyle

[hifi_dave]

In my experience, the only way to get a Koetsu 'properly' serviced or re-tipped, is to return it to Koetsu via your dealer or distributor.

Other companies can repair, re-tip and service but without access to Koetsu parts, will not be able to return it to the original performance or sound. Others may even be able to do a better job but it won't be a Koetsu. A bit like taking your Ferrari into the local Dawoo dealer and having a clutch fitted. It might work well but it won't be a Ferrari.

[vouk]

Hi Kyle,

I certainly agree with Dave above - I realize that the price for an actual re-tip by Koetsu is rather steep but, considering that this involves a complete re-build (minus magnets - body) of the cartridge, it seems like the right way forward. Especially with a cartridge like yours. Having recently compared a re-tipped Black to a new factory one the differences, while subtle, were quite audible.

That being said, many people here at AOS have had very positive results with North West Analogue - he seems to have a lot of experience with Koetsu; he is a member here so might be worth contacting. My other recommendation would be Roberto Torlai in Italy - top notch.
Best
John

[DSJR]

Can Dom/NWA actually fit diamonds to existing cantilevers, or do they fit new cantilever assemblies to existing generators? I think ESCo can do this, as well as full rebuilds, but this latter are able to fully recalibrate if necessary.

The only Koetsu I remember having 'things' done to it was an original Onyx which again, had its diamond knocked off. VDH retipped it and it sounded amazing, quite the best early Koetsu I ever heard.

Later on, the owner sent it back to Japan to be turned into a 'Signature' model and it came back ruined, the sound rather wishy-washy and effusive, much in the vein of Top End pickups back then.

I do understand that Koetsu's today, as well as being daft money (I just have this 'thing' about foo products and prices - apologies), are more neutral in performance than the warm-toned earlier models, but if the performance has been altered negatively by your recent adventures, going back to the factory may well be the only option, although thus pauper must add that cachet aside, there are some rather wonderful cartridges available for well under $1000 you know ;)

[kroslos]

Dave/Dave/John - Thanks for the input. hifi dave's comment was spot on regarding retipping my Onyx through non-Koetsu channels - " A bit like taking your Ferrari into the local Dawoo dealer and having a clutch fitted. It might work well but it won't be a Ferrari." Ha! Great analogy!

No I have to find legitimate Koetsu sources for the rebuild.

Kyle

[chelsea]

My black was re done at Goldring.
Very good job done and quick.

[NRG]

+1 for the Goldring service. Although its not in the same class they did a superb job with my 103D.

[paskinn]

In my experience, the only way to get a Koetsu 'properly' serviced or re-tipped, is to return it to Koetsu via your dealer or distributor.

Other companies can repair, re-tip and service but without access to Koetsu parts, will not be able to return it to the original performance or sound. Others may even be able to do a better job but it won't be a Koetsu. A bit like taking your Ferrari into the local Dawoo dealer and having a clutch fitted. It might work well but it won't be a Ferrari.

This is correct..and needs saying. Too many enthusiasts have ruined Koetsus (and other good makes) by having them retipped by outside agents. Sometimes, too often, attempts are made to sell such modded cartridges as 'original.' After all, how would most of us know?
As a result of this problem, I won't buy second-hand cartridges. You just don't know what has been done to them. By the way, have you noticed how nearly all second-hand cartridges have been' lightly used.'?
So, my advice would be to buy new and use carefully...if it's too expensive, buy something you can afford. Isn't that what we have to do all the time (I'd like a Jaguar, I drive an old Toyota).

[vouk]

Dave/Dave/John - Thanks for the input. hifi dave's comment was spot on regarding retipping my Onyx through non-Koetsu channels - " A bit like taking your Ferrari into the local Dawoo dealer and having a clutch fitted. It might work well but it won't be a Ferrari." Ha! Great analogy!

No I have to find legitimate Koetsu sources for the rebuild.

Kyle

the US distributor is Pelotone: http://www.pelotone.com/index-koetsu-phono-cartridge/#/pelotone-koetsu-factory-rebuild/

[DSJR]

+1 for the Goldring service. Although its not in the same class they did a superb job with my 103D.


What's not in the same class?????

The 103 doesn't have a posh stone body I grant you and diamond cantilevers with stunning stylus fit and finish can be had in the Dynavector 17D3 I think still for a 'mere' £600 or so, but the bits inside won't be so different. It's the CACHET of the Koetsu that tries to justify the expense. Ab Sounds sell an expensive lifestyle portfolio of products to a tier above B&O but don't ever think the products are 'better' than everyone else. They're just much more expensive and 'exclusive' because of it, the one exception possibly being Devialet, which does seem somewhat unique in what it offers the consumer and the internal electronic engineering involved to make it do what it does.

[NRG]

OK! Calm down, Calm down :D

[DSJR]

Wot I ment to say guv'nor, is that most cartridges of a particular type are very similar indeed under the skin and the rest is cachet and 'intellectual property' whatever that means in this instance ;)

Oh Gawd, seems as if I'm being patronising to the OP. I'm really not and apologies if I was taken this way :doh: :o

[walpurgis]

It's the CACHET of the Koetsu that tries to justify the expense.

I thought the sound was the selling point. Koetsu MCs have always sounded excellent to me.

[PaulStewart]

Hi Kyle

I have used Koetsu for many years and I have the Rosewood Signature, after an accident it required a re-tip, so I sent it back to Japan via the UK Distributor. This was fully rebuilt and came back sounding like new. I will be sending back for another rebuild, either this year or early next. In my opinion, to paraphase Dave, a Ferrari needs genuine parts and mechanics. It really is the only way to go. With due respect to others who work on these carts, original works best for me

Best of luck with it

[The Grand Wazoo]

I had my first Black (an original) re-tipped and cantilevered by van den Hul some years ago. The tip fell off within days! It was sent back and repaired, after which it was fine. It sounded very good indeed, but I thought it was different to how it had sounded originally.
My second Black lost its tip in an accident and the whole cartridge was replaced through an insurance claim.

[anubisgrau]

Does anyone have any experience with Black Goldline and how sensitive are the coils in a relation to a cantilever damage? How big are the chances of broken coil(s) if the cantilever is pulled out?

[hifi_dave]

Surely, if the cantilever has been pulled out, the coils have been damaged ? The coils are affixed to the cantilever, I believe.

[anubisgrau]

doesnt have to be in my experience and it mostly depend on a type of the cantilever. hard ones like ruby or boron or similar have higher chances to do so in comparison with aluminium. that's why i asked for black, i think the original cantilever was a type of composite alu, quite a soft one.

[huw chardon]

The best retip is done yer aj van den hul, he will match a cantilever to the tip, he is the master at this, and, more than probably, because of the the stylus profile, it will sound better. Than new, he will also rebuild the suspension, this is Very Important, as the rubber ages it becomes hard and has a massive effect on sound quality, again Vdh will do this, he is the only man I trust to do this, hope this is helpful.

[walpurgis]

Dominic Harper at Northwest Analogue has many happy customers. His site has loads of interesting photos of the intricate and expert work carried out.

http://www.northwestanalogue.com/

[anubisgrau]

The best retip is done yer aj van den hul, he will match a cantilever to the tip, he is the master at this, and, more than probably, because of the the stylus profile, it will sound better. Than new, he will also rebuild the suspension, this is Very Important, as the rubber ages it becomes hard and has a massive effect on sound quality, again Vdh will do this, he is the only man I trust to do this, hope this is helpful.

do you have your own experience with vdh in this?

FWIW the worst koetsu retip i've ever heard was rosewood signature by vdh.

[montesquieu]

Your findings mirror mine, though perhaps with slightly humbler cartridges. I've never had a cartridge back from a retip that I kept for any length of time. I personally wouldn't touch any 'retipped' (as opposed to factory rebuilt) Koetsu with a bargepole.

[petrat]

Your findings mirror mine, though perhaps with slightly humbler cartridges. I've never had a cartridge back from a retip that I kept for any length of time. I personally wouldn't touch any 'retipped' (as opposed to factory rebuilt) Koetsu with a bargepole.

My experience, exactly.

[paskinn]

In my experience, the only way to get a Koetsu 'properly' serviced or re-tipped, is to return it to Koetsu via your dealer or distributor.

Other companies can repair, re-tip and service but without access to Koetsu parts, will not be able to return it to the original performance or sound. Others may even be able to do a better job but it won't be a Koetsu. A bit like taking your Ferrari into the local Dawoo dealer and having a clutch fitted. It might work well but it won't be a Ferrari.

A bit of simple common sense. You see the forums full of people recommending none standard re-tips, but all you do is destroy the authenticity of the cartridge. In which case, why buy it in the first place? The truth is that owning high-end cartridges is a very expensive business; if you can't afford it, don't do it.
The good news is, that to my jaundiced ears, you can get equally enjoyable cartridges at far more reasonable prices. This fun hobby doesn't have to be about money and hi fi snobbery.

[walpurgis]

Usability comes before authenticity in my book. I'd have nothing against an expert retip or cantilever replacement or even coil replacement. Many cartridges can actually be improved on over the original spec.

[Ammonite Audio]

Usability comes before authenticity in my book. I'd have nothing against an expert retip or cantilever replacement or even coil replacement. Many cartridges can actually be improved on over the original spec.

Quite. Re-tipping can bring extra years of enjoyment, at modest cost, from an otherwise sound MC cartridge. Putting on and aligning a new tip is one thing; however problems can potentially arise when it comes to suspension, tie-wire tension etc. Playing around with those things requires real expertise and that is where the manufacturer's re-build service comes in (if such service is available).

[walpurgis]

Buying for instance, a budget MC like the Denon DL-103 with a broken stylus cheaply and having it rebuilt to standard way above the normal spec is an attractive idea. If I recall, Northwest Analogue has done a few. A fine boron tube cantilever and something like a Geiger tip may sound excellent on one of these. Whether you'd recoup the expenditure is another thing, but you can't do Hi-Fi properly if you always have an eye on resale values.

[montesquieu]

Buying for instance, a budget MC like the Denon DL-103 with a broken stylus cheaply and having it rebuilt to standard way above the normal spec is an attractive idea. If I recall, Northwest Analogue has done a few. A fine boron tube cantilever and something like a Geiger tip may sound excellent on one of these. Whether you'd recoup the expenditure is another thing, but you can't do Hi-Fi properly if you always have an eye on resale values.

Tried that and was unconvinced (Expert, paratrace). The spherical on the 103 does limit its performance, yes, but so does the body and indeed the limitations of the design.

By contrast a soundsmith DL103R modified to mono was a great success (tip unchanged).

[dario1954]

Hi Kyle,
My other recommendation would be Roberto Torlai in Italy - top notch.



I had a Denon 103 completely overhauled by Torlai, the result was so convincing that a friend of mine, always a VdH fan, sold his Dutch cartridge and went for a 103R.

Be aware that Torlai, as well as other cartridge rebuilders, uses Benz parts, hence your Koetsu will have maybe a different sound...

[anubisgrau]

Usability comes before authenticity in my book. I'd have nothing against an expert retip or cantilever replacement or even coil replacement. Many cartridges can actually be improved on over the original spec.

true, especially with designs with inherent compromises.

i too support the original manufacturer service, however what is to be done when you dont have like 1.5k to spend on that (koetsu black for example) and need to find a solution for about a quarter of the price or even less? you have to accept the compromise and gamble. i've recently had koetsu black goldline serviced at a relatively unkown place but was attracted with a good documentation provided about the service, like lots of the pics of the inner before, during and after service, plus lots of positive feedback from the clients. i'm glad it showed i didn't make a mistake, although i'm pretty confident that this is not the same as a stock K black goldline. however, if an original though used up sugano san K black i also have here is a relevant reference, the new is actually a better one, especially in the areas known as koetsu weak points (top HF extension, mid bass bloom). it has new copper coils, boron cantilever and micro ridge stylus, improved resolution and HF extension, less coloured mid bass and retained all the midrange sweetness and excellent dynamics/energy. very happy with it and given the price i paid, i will have no bad conscience to grind it as an everyday pickup on any records.