Mahler's 5th - an Apology.

[DaveK]

Hi y'all,
This is by way of being a belated apology to one of my early responders on this forum who recommended Mahler's 5th Symphony to me, at which point I made a rather disparaging response. :eyebrows: As I type this I am listening, for the third consecutive time, to the Adagietto. Now this is music that I can just lay back, with eyes closed, and let the music, for it really is MUSIC, just wash over me. Obviously (hopefully), it is not the first time that I have heard it, but it is the first time that I have looked to see what it is that I am listening to. BEAUTIFUL, there is just no other word for it !!!:)
Questions: -
1) Is the rest of it as beautiful as the Adagietto?
2) Do you know any more like that?

Cheers,

[DSJR]

I first heard this beautiful music back in the seventies and the Adagietto via Herbert von Karajan's recording from 1974. The score calls for the tempo to be slow and later, even slower!!! Many conductors speed up instead and although I like much of Solti's Mahler cycle, Herby did this one for me, along with Tennstedt's interpretation in the early eighties. In the right mood, time stands still for fifteen minutes or so... The whole thing is wonderful if you can give it time.................

If you like the above, then try the Ruckert Lieder. "Ich Bin de Welt" has me in tears almost every time I hear it and the Christa Ludwig/Herbie interpretation on DG from 1974 (the LP [not the CD] translation of the words are what I want at my funeral) is magical. I've also heard Dietrich Fischer Discau's interpretation and this gives a wonderful rendering from a man's point of view.

So many years have passed since these recordings were made I have no idea if the more recent performances are any better. But try the above and I don't think you'll be disappoined...


P.S. herbie did have a habit of getting behind the mixing desk and subtly "mixing" certain phrases and parts. After his death, a few of the better performances were re-mixed with far more atmosphere and these sound much better and more "3-D" on the CD medium.

Hope the above snippet is helpful to you. I love much of Mahler's work, although his hero Wagner leaves me totally cold for some reason.



".......I have renounced the worldy bustle and live in peace at a quiet place. I live alone in this, my heaven. In my love, in my songs............"

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for that - just a quick response due to lousy headache.
I am a fan of Herbie (as you call him) - his version of Tchaikovsky's is the best I've heard so far (am collecting different versions :mental: ).
Tennstedt I am not aware of - I'll look out for him.
Ruckert Lieder. "Ich Bin de Welt" has me in tears almost every time I hear it - sounds like my sort of music - I'll look out for that too - dependant on what sort of mood I'm in at the time, instrumental versions of Londonderry Aire can sometimes have the same effect on me - soppy ain't I !!:mental:
Snippet was very helpful - also agree with you about Wagner in general, with the possible exception of Valkyries - very dramatic !!! :)
Cheers,

[Barry]

Hi Dave

My version is by Solti with the Chicargo Symphony Orchestra (Decca 414 321-2). Mahler is not in my 'top 10', so I have no idea if this recording is considered to be a good reading and performance.

Your post has caused me to pull it out to play. I have not played it in a while, will do so tomorrow evening.

Regards

[DSJR]

Solti was marvellous on the more "robust" Mahler symphonies like the 6th, 8th and 4th I understand. The recording of the 8th suffers with the Decca "tree" mic system causing all sorts of phase distortion and so it sounds confused at the dramatic ending.

Interesting comments on Solti's 4th - my mastering engineer friend played me the original LP set from 1964 - very rich and dull balance. When he came to master the CD set, he got the original tapes from the store - Decca usually used the original tapes for mastering and there were safety backups in case of disaster. The eq settings for the vinyl cut were written on the boxes and sounded horrid when listened to on the monitors, so he decided to align the playback machine (Studer A80 IIRC) "flat" and the CD as mastered by him is, "As the producer heard it!" he says with total conviction, having compared the master with the CD made from it...

[Barry]

Hi Dave,

Have just played the Mahler 5 and can see what you feel about the Adagietto. This then led me on to listening to the Adagio and Adante markings of other classical works, such as Beethoven 7, Hyden's 100 and 104, Dvorak 9 etc.

At the moment I'm listening to a compilation of Mozart Adagios on Naxos 8.552241. Very soothing.

This one of a series:

Beethoven, Naxos 8.552240
J. S. Bach, Naxos 8.552242
Mahler, Naxos 8.552243
Albinoni, Naxos 8.552244.

Trust this is of interest

Regards

[DSJR]

With Naxos, you either get bloody marvelous or bloody awful, and sadly, I'm not an expert to tell which..

The feelings on tempo have changed over the centuries. In Beethovens time it seemed that tempo should be faster when in the 1930's to the sixties or so, everything was played much slower (huge potential flame issue this so apologies in advance). Until the Dual blew a capacitor at Christmas, I was listening to the Colin Davis Philips recording of Handel's Messiah and couldn't believe how laboured it was. I also have a "Proprius" LP set of this and the whole thing has more "bounce" to the rhythm and feel of the piece. A dreadful way to describe it, but I think you know what I mean by these terms.....

[Barry]

With Naxos, you either get bloody marvelous or bloody awful, and sadly, I'm not an expert to tell which..

The feelings on tempo have changed over the centuries. In Beethovens time it seemed that tempo should be faster when in the 1930's to the sixties or so, everything was played much slower (huge potential flame issue this so apologies in advance). Until the Dual blew a capacitor at Christmas, I was listening to the Colin Davis Philips recording of Handel's Messiah and couldn't believe how laboured it was. I also have a "Proprius" LP set of this and the whole thing has more "bounce" to the rhythm and feel of the piece. A dreadful way to describe it, but I think you know what I mean by these terms.....

Hi Dave,

Yes, you are right in some respects: Naxos do use recordings by largely little-known east-european ensembles. This is not necessarily a bad thing; sometimes they can be better than expected. However the use of less well known musicians is quite often compounded by the less-than-sophisticated recording equipment used. No, we're not talking triode-based electronics here, more like germanium semiconductor technology. Despite all this, the Naxos recordings are not expensive and do provide a cost-effective way of exploring certain classical avenues. My introduction to the works of Eric Satie was via Naxos.

Understand what you are saying about the tempo markings. No, you're not going to get 'flamed', well certainly not from me; I'm not sufficient a musicologist to comment. Suffice it to say that I do collect different interpretations of classical works, and when it come to Beethoven, Klemperer's reading is almost painfully slow. But you are quite right, it wasn't until comparatively recent times that metronome markings were used to clarify what was meant by the traditional Italian terms such as Adagio, Allegro, Presto etc.

Regards

[DaveK]

Hi Dave and Barry,
I started another thread a few days ago asking for opinions on the low price classical CDs currently on offer at HMV in conjunction with Classic FM. To my surprise no one responded - is it approriate to raise the subject again here as I would expect both participarting companies to be keen to put out only high quality discs - any views?
Cheers,

[Barry]

Hi Dave and Barry,
I started another thread a few days ago asking for opinions on the low price classical CDs currently on offer at HMV in conjunction with Classic FM. To my surprise no one responded - is it approriate to raise the subject again here as I would expect both participarting companies to be keen to put out only high quality discs - any views?
Cheers,

Hi Dave,

Yes, I was aware of your post regarding HMV (Greensleeves?) recordings. Unfortunately, I have no direct experience of these.

Sorry, cannot comment........

Regards

[Jeremy Marchant]

Questions: -
1) Is the rest of it as beautiful as the Adagietto?
2) Do you know any more like that?

(1) No. It’s not supposed to be. Think of the fifth as a huge journey from tragedy (first movement) to exuberant joy (end of last movement). Listen to the symphony all the way through, and it becomes apparent that the adagietto (fourth movement) plays a crucial role in this much larger design; your appreciation of it is likely to be increased by the contrast between it and the surrounding music.

May I point out something amusing which you might not have noticed and which shows Mahler saying ‘don’t treat this adagietto too seriously’. All the timings below are from the Chicago SO/Abbado performance of the fourth and fifth movements lasting 11’55 and 14’41 respectively. Adjust my figures below accordingly depending on the timings of these movements on your CD.

Notice that the adagietto comes to small climax which subsides to 4’55, at which point a new, slightly less unruffled section begins. There’s a new tune at 5’50, running to 6’27 and beyond. Now fast forward to the fifth movement. That’s a rondo – ie a piece of music in which one section recurs with contrasting bits between each recurrence. The rondo theme is none other the new tune of the adagietto, now decidedly more jaunty and down to earth – in Abbado’s performance it occurs at 3’38 - 4’10, 6’53 - 7’32 and 12’06 - 12’54, each time developed a bit more.

Also, it’s not too soon to see how Mahler’s symphonies flow form his songs. Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen (I have lost track of the world) form the Rückertlieder (Rückert songs) is a template for the adagietto, both melodically and psychologically. Interesting, so too is Nun seh’ ich wohl… (Now I understand why such dark flames were strewn on me when you looked at me) from Kindertotenlieder (Songs on the death of children). Melodically close, but psychologically at odds. Mahler is full of these contradictions and paradoxes.

(2) The other big Mahler slow movements are those in
symphony 3, Langsam [slow], subtitled What love tells me, or What God tells me
symphony 4, Ruhevoll [peaceful]
symphony 6, Andante moderato [at a slow walking pace]
symphony 9, Adagio [slow].
[By convention, movement identifiers include the first tempo marking to appear in the score.]

None of these are the static snapshot that the adagietto is intended to be. You’ll find they all traverse emotional terrain not all restful and tranquil. 3’s is the last of six movements and works itself up into a huge conclusion befitting a symphony nearly 100 minutes long. 9’s – also the last movement – written when the composer was ill and soon to die, disintegrates into nothingness.

In all cases I urge you not to extract the slow movement from the whole work. If Mahler had wanted to write a standalone movement, he would have done. Hear the music in context.
--
You might want to try Bruckner. Some people find his music heavy and ponderous – I suspect that’s often because they’re not in sympathy with it, and that’s that. Sometimes, it is poorly conducted, and sometimes it is, even now, performed in stupidly cut versions. Bruckner is both more objective and more spiritual than Mahler. His symphonies 7, 8 and 9 contain wonderful, long slow movements. Without going into the ins and outs of conductors now, I’ll say you can’t go wrong with Karajan in these works (both his DG and EMI recordings).

For something very moving, at the tragic, grieving end of the scale, Richard Strauss’s Metamorphosen for string orchestra is worth a try. The middle section is surprisingly brisk, but all the more powerful is the slow music when it subsequently returns (Previn on Philips is good.)

Despair, this time building to a piledriving, crushing climax is the hallmark of the slow movement of Franz Schmidt’s fourth symphony. If you like that, play the whole work, it’s a remarkably integrated, vast span.
---
Switching continents, I am not a fan of Rachmaninov, but the slow movement of his second symphony fits the bill. No tragedy here, though maybe a bit of wistfulness here and there. Previn’s pioneering recording with the LSO on EMI is still excellent.

Shostakovich turned in some excellent slow movements, including those of his fifth and sixth symphonies. Again, expect some variety of emotion in them.
---
If you really want strictly beautiful, unruffled music, you’ll find it in Arvo Pärt, amongst others (perhaps another post if people are interested).

[DaveK]

Hi Jeremy,
First let me belatedly welcome you to the forum. One of the first members to welcome you, if I recall reasonably correctly, said that he thought that you would be a great asset to the forum and, based on your friendly, very detailed, informative and very interesting post on Mahler et al, I can only but agree with him, in spades !!
I will read it again more closely tomorrow and perhaps post a second response in more detail, (and probably with more questions :) ), but, even at this time of night, I could not let it pass without posting an immediate thanks, being as I was the person who posted the questions with which you opened your post.
Thanks and welcome again,
Cheers.

[DaveK]

Hi Jeremy,
Thanks again for your posting on Mahler et al.
I'll try to respond as best I can to the points you raised.
I had already decided to 'invest' in a copy of Mahler's 5th and I'll take the fact that you have used the Chigago SO/Abado recording as your reference as a recommendation that it's a good version. I'm just trying to get back into vinyl again so I'll look for a vinyl version if one exists, failing that a DVD-A, HDCD, SACD or CD. Thankfully I've got a series of 'black boxes' that enable me to play most things but not necessarily all well !!

To be honest I'm not really 'into' songs in a foreign language (with the exception of some of the opera 'classics'that tend to cross the great divide, started by Russell Watson and Pavarotti etc.), so Mahler's songs are a closed book to me and likely to remain so.

I will make a point of listening to the other big Mahler slow movements that you recommend and let you know if any of them 'hit the spot'. This also applies to your Bruckner 7, 8 and 9 recommendations. I will look for the Karajan recordings as I am a fan of his - he made a good job of most of what he did, IMHO.

Having said that, a possible exception to this is his DG recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th, a (if not the) favourite piece of classical music of mine - I personally find his recording too slow and pedestrian. I was introduced to it by a friend of many many years and I must admit it took some time for me to really appreciate it all. I stuck with it so that I could discuss it with him over our regular meeting (and drinking) sessions and grew to really appreciate it all. Within a few years of this my friend died suddenly at a relatively young age and specified that he wanted it to be played at his funeral. It left me shredded and I couldn't listen to it for a couple of years without breaking up but that has passed and I can now enjoy it again.

Again the Previn/Philips recording of Strauss's Metamorphosen will get an airing, as will Schmidt's 4th slow movement. Being honest, I can't say I've heard of Arvo Part but I'll look out for him too.

Thanks again for giving us (me) the benefit of your knowledge, experience and insight.

Cheers,

[Jeremy Marchant]

I find Claudio Abbado one of the most reliable conductors around – it’s very unusual to find a dud performance, and his Mahler 5 is good. Not that there aren’t lots of good CDs of this work – there are probably over 100 different performances currently available! If you can’t get Abbado on vinyl – and it would be a matter of finding a secondhand copy – Bernard Haitink’s vinyl account on Philips is excellent in all respects.


To be honest I'm not really 'into' songs in a foreign language... so Mahler's songs are a closed book to me and likely to remain so.

But that’s just a belief! Unless you’ve listened to the songs a few times, how would you know that you couldn’t bear them? And, if you were going to be convinced that they were a good listen, wouldn’t a song which is interestingly close to a piece of music you do like the best place to start?


Having said that, a possible exception to this is his [Karajan's] DG recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th, a (if not the) favourite piece of classical music of mine - I personally find his recording too slow and pedestrian.

I think it’s fair to say that there were a lot of questionable performances from Karajan over the years, but his Bruckner symphonies aren’t among them.


Again the Previn/Philips recording of Strauss's Metamorphosen will get an airing, as will Schmidt's 4th slow movement.

Schmidt: If you can find Zubin Mehta’s performance on vinyl (Decca), go for it, otherwise I see there’s only one performance available on CD (Jarvi on Chandos, which I’ve not heard).

[DSJR]

The best orchestral concert I EVER attended was Abbado conducting mahler 6 in the festival hall way back in 1983........ Time stood still for the entire performance and the movement and "flow" in the concert was mesmerising. Contrast this with the Maazel Mahler cycle which was terrible by comparison :(

If you want to find any good, well mastered (without tinkering) CD's, try some of the old Decca cheapies of recordings from the fifties and early sixties. My mate Chris "did" a good many of them and what comes out is exactly what went in, each disc sounding different depending on the venue etc...

IMO, ones to avoid are some of the CBS early eighties orchestral recordings, which are over-miced to oblivion. many of these discs were mixed to sound how the CONDUCTOR hears them - in-ya-face and over "deeeeetailed."

[Joe]

The Barbirolli Mahler 5th is excellent and only £6.50 from Amazon.

[DSJR]

Another good "gig" was Mahler 2 at a proms, again well back in time. We were sat next to the organ and behind the orchestra (didn't matter, the music was magical). I forget the soloist's name (tip of tongue), but when she sang "Irlicht" it was another "stasis" moment. The song ends and the tempo picks up hugely and she just stood there transfixed for a moment before gently sitting back down.


A couple of other favourites - Barber's Adagio For Strings and, staying with Mahler, the realisation of the 10th is very powerful IMO, especially the final 15 minutes or so...

[Jeremy Marchant]

Elgar could write a good slow piece. In addition to Nimrod from the Enigma Variations, try the slow movements of both symphonies and the cello concerto. All works, which like the Schmidt 4 I mentioned earlier, repay hearing in their entirety.

Sticking with the original request, which I interpret as being for pieces of beautiful music which stay pretty much in the same state, you certainly need to hear some Olivier Messiaen. Jardin du sommeil d'amour [Garden of love's sleep] from his vast Turangalila symphony manages to be rapturous and contemplative at the same rime. Previn's version on EMI is excellent, and inexpensive. More spiritually, Prière du Christ montant vers son Père [Prayer of Christ ascending towards his Father] from L'Ascension is in the same vein. This is a long way form German romanticism, and none the worse for that.

Try Cantus in memory of Benjamin Britten by Arvo Part, like the Barber, for strings (plus a bell). There's a good enough performance on a cheap HMV Classics CD (called Tabula rasa), which will enable you to listen to a variety of other pieces by Part which often reach a state of timelessness. In particular Spiegel im Spiegel [Mirror in the mirror] and Silentium from Tabula rasa [Blank slate] itself.

[Jeremy Marchant]

The Part album is the one on Classics for pleasure, 5758052 (not the Best of Part album on the same label which ironically omits one of his best pieces, Tabula rasa). Worth £4.89 of anyone's money just to experiment (here www.mdt.co.uk).

[DaveK]

The Part album is the one on Classics for pleasure, 5758052 (not the Best of Part album on the same label which ironically omits one of his best pieces, Tabula rasa). Worth £4.89 of anyone's money just to experiment (here www.mdt.co.uk).

Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for the pointer - fully agree with you about the experiment and have ordered it - not the most 'user-friendly' ordering system but got there in the end (if you do something wrong it just ignores further key strokes, no error message or hints). Will let you know what I think after a good listen.
Thanks again,