How good is a fully upgraded Technics SL-1210mk2 compared to other high end TT?

[ChrisKemp]

As the title says;

How good is a fully modified Techy 12xx, with say new PSU, MN Bearing, ETP platter, Isonoe Feet, new arm (Jelco 750D or Origin Live Silver or Funk Firm)…

compared to say:

Linn LP12

JR Transrotor ZET-1

Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge

VPI Classic

Michell GyroDeck

Michell Orbe SE

Avid Diva

ProJect RPM-10.1

:scratch:

ALL of these TT obove will cost about the same as a fully modified Technics deck.

My upgrades so far has been relatively low cost (KAB Fluid Damper, Mains PSU, Achromat 1200, Isonoe). The three next upgrades will be high cost upgrades:
- Mike New Bearing.
- Mike New ETP platter
- Origin Live Silver/ Jelco 750D tonearm/ FX arm

I was hoping that someone that has heard or own a fully upgraded 12xx, and compared it to or upgraded it to another high end TT could share som input. Hopefully compared it to one of the above.

Here is a picture of the German made JR Trans Rotor ZET-1::eyebrows:

[MikeMusic]

More or less that spec Tech compared to my
LP12, Aro, Lyra Dorian, Valhalla, not Cirkus
it is better by say 20%.

When I have a day off and some time I intend to compare both again more fully

I'd say pop in for a listen but you're some distance away so maybe not
:)

[ChrisKemp]

Thanks MikeMusic. I have never heard a Linn LP12, but if it is that much better than a fully modded Technics, that is impressive!
And yes please compare the two. I think alot of members will like to hear your findings.

It would be great to pop in for a demo. I´ll just take a 1h30m train ride to the airport and take the first plane over :lol:

Often the word "better" is a little difficult to fully understand when it comes to sound quality. That is why I wrote "compared to" instead of "better". How do you think the LP12 is better? What difference in sound??

[MikeMusic]

Tech is 20% better than the LP12, sorry if unclear.

Then there's the ride from Heathrow
:)

I'm struggling for words as it was many months ago after I modded the Tech.
It was better in terms of detail I think and total amount of music delivered.

[ChrisKemp]

Oh, wow. The Technics is better than your LP12!? I´m even more impressed now. I see you have the Oyaide MJ-12 platter. I have the Achromat Funkplatter 1200 with 400 gram record weight. Will the Oyaide be an upgrade from the Achromat you think?

[MikeMusic]

Definite.
The Oyaide a definite step up from the Achromat - which I thought was fantastic sound quality, especially at that price level

But - before you go spending money .... we have yet to discover for sure if the Oyaide on a Funk Firm is better or worse then the Mike New platter on it's own

[ChrisKemp]

So the Oyaide is that good. :) Yes to compare it with the Mike New Platter would be interesting…

Ok, back ot again;)

In Norway one of the most populair TTs is Rega and the RP8 has received great reviews in my country. Has anyone compared the RP8 + Apheta to a fully modded Technics SL12xx??

I have read alot of post were fully modded Technics are considered to be great turn tables. But how good compared to others. And what would be the differense in SQ??

[Audioman]

As most people will gather I don't rate the Lp12 and certainly these days a 20% improvement (always subjective) can be had by spending far less than the full Technics mods cost. This would involve the convenience of buying a properly designed off-the-shelf product from the likes of Mitchel.

[Audio Al]

How good is a fully upgraded Technics SL-1210mk2

EPIC :D
Rather nice
Sweet
Dandy
Spot ON
the list goes on ;)

[ChrisKemp]

Hehe, great reply Audio Al:D

But how well does it do to others? That is what I want to know:scratch:

[costerdock]

I have a fully modded (except arm and platter - as I'm happy with them) M5G and it does very well compared with my VPI Classic - at this point I can now change between carts etc and have some nice comparisons. I'm extremely happy having two such different tables (light platter/heavy platter, long arm/short arm, belt, direct,....) I wish I could have them side by side - but I just do not have the room.

In short - the Technics is capable of greatness.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af280/costerdo/IMG_2417_zpsa45319db.jpg

[ChrisKemp]

Great looking system you have there. Tubes and VPI Classic. Is it possible for you to explaint the difference between the two turntables? Because as you write, they ate very different. I have never heard a VPI Classic, but they are some great looking decks! What cartridge do you use on Technics and VPI (favorite cartridge)?

[MikeMusic]

I have a fully modded (except arm and platter - as I'm happy with them) M5G and it does very well compared with my VPI Classic - at this point I can now change between carts etc and have some nice comparisons. I'm extremely happy having two such different tables (light platter/heavy platter, long arm/short arm, belt, direct,....) I wish I could have them side by side - but I just do not have the room.

In short - the Technics is capable of greatness.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af280/costerdo/IMG_2417_zpsa45319db.jpg

And what's more you have a couple of great dogs !
:)

[Audio Al]

Hehe, great reply Audio Al:D

But how well does it do to others? That is what I want to know:scratch:

I have a 1210 Mk2
fully modded

Mike new bearing and ETP platter
Origin live Encounter MK3c arm
Shelter 5000 cart
Feet
Timestep HE power supply

It sounds Lovely

It;s my TT of choice the other 15+ TT get a spin now and then

Also , Its fun doing the upgrades , if you keep all the original item you can return to original and sell all the up grades without loosing much money

[ChrisKemp]

Is any of your 15 TT one of the turntables I wrote on my list i the opening post.?

[6L6]

You don't even need to go fully modded, the SL-1200 has a certain rightness to timing, flow, rhythm, pitch and soul that any low-mass rubberband deck just can't do. It has it when completely stock. (They are just dark when stock) Modded the deck is a complete and utter giant killer.

The mods you have done have been an improvement in the proper direction, yes? By all reports the ones you mention also move it in the right direction. Don't get caught up in the idea that spending more money on a different, expensive table is a guarantee of good sound... It's just a guarantee of spending more money.

[costerdock]

And what's more you have a couple of great dogs !
:)

Thanks very much!

[MikeMusic]

Thanks very much!

Something about that pic says all is good

I think we should get dogs in all the kit pics !

[costerdock]

Great looking system you have there. Tubes and VPI Classic. Is it possible for you to explaint the difference between the two turntables? Because as you write, they ate very different. I have never heard a VPI Classic, but they are some great looking decks! What cartridge do you use on Technics and VPI (favorite cartridge)?


Thanks very much. On the VPI I'm running a Grado Reference Master 1 and on the Technics a DV 10x5. I cannot really say which is my favorite as I love them both very much - but I have to admit - I'm playing the VPI more often - mostly because of the Grado - also - it is a damn cool table - I love the way the record seals onto the platter with the clamp setup. My goal will likely be to move the Grado back to the Technics as it is quieter there (since the Grado picks up some low motor noise at high volumes - which being unshielded - it is known for - really only noticeable when you are over the record) and move the VPI to a low output DV 20X. When I first heard the VPI - I felt it had a bit more bass than the technics - but that could have been the DV I had on it. I cannot make up my mine - I choose to simply enjoy both.

Thanks again,

[ChrisKemp]

You don't even need to go fully modded, the SL-1200 has a certain rightness to timing, flow, rhythm, pitch and soul that any low-mass rubberband deck just can't do. It has it when completely stock. (They are just dark when stock) Modded the deck is a complete and utter giant killer.

The mods you have done have been an improvement in the proper direction, yes? By all reports the ones you mention also move it in the right direction. Don't get caught up in the idea that spending more money on a different, expensive table is a guarantee of good sound... It's just a guarantee of spending more money.
That is very true! Yes my upgrades has given me a very good TT indeed! And I follow you completely what you say about spendig more money and the guarantee of good sound :)

[6L6]

The other thing you need to keep in mind about the $€£ of high-end components these days it that as the market rapidly and quickly contracts, the prices must go up to keep some semblance of profit as the unit sales go down. Just because a whatever costs 20K doesn't necessarily mean that it's thousands and thousands better. This and that there is a huge amount of Veblen pricing in this industry...

Anyway, I am in awe of how well the Techie responds to modification when addressing some of it's engineering tradeoffs. This thing is just amazing. It's so much better than the Rega Planar25 it replaced it's laughable. I'm seriously contemplating a megabuck arm, like a Graham or something similar. My experiences so far say that it will respond very well to it.

[Andrei]

You don't even need to go fully modded, the SL-1200 has a certain rightness to timing, flow, rhythm, pitch and soul that any low-mass rubberband deck just can't do. It has it when completely stock. (They are just dark when stock) Modded the deck is a complete and utter giant killer.

The mods you have done have been an improvement in the proper direction, yes? By all reports the ones you mention also move it in the right direction. Don't get caught up in the idea that spending more money on a different, expensive table is a guarantee of good sound... It's just a guarantee of spending more money.
+1

[CageyH]

The other thing you need to keep in mind about the $€£ of high-end components these days it that as the market rapidly and quickly contracts, the prices must go up to keep some semblance of profit as the unit sales go down. Just because a whatever costs 20K doesn't necessarily mean that it's thousands and thousands better. This and that there is a huge amount of Veblen pricing in this industry...

Anyway, I am in awe of how well the Techie responds to modification when addressing some of it's engineering tradeoffs. This thing is just amazing. It's so much better than the Rega Planar25 it replaced it's laughable. I'm seriously contemplating a megabuck arm, like a Graham or something similar. My experiences so far say that it will respond very well to it.

My experience also suggests that the deck responds very well to a good arm. I would only class mine as a moderately expensive but mega arm :lol: but I have never heard a Graham or Dynavector.

[Audio Al]

Is any of your 15 TT one of the turntables I wrote on my list i the opening post.?


Unfortunately not

[Tarzan]

Depends on what you like listening to in music, l am getting my Gyrodec next week, so can let peeps know when l have compared my Techie at home( see system details), l heard them at the showroom and l loved the sound of the Gyrodec-it sounded stunning, having heard AudioAL's highly pimped Techie, that sounded superb as well it really did,it all depends on your priorities are in sound. Good luck and have fun!

[ChrisKemp]

I understand that the Technics is a great table. That is why I bought one:) I just can't find any Technics vs xx turntable reviews. Rega is not my cup of tea, but I really love the design of the JR Transrotor ZET-1. The ZET-1 with a Rega arm, cost £2500 here in Norway. For me a fully modified 1210mk2 will cost a total of £2500. With a Transrotor 800S arm the ZET-1 will cost £2800.

So many say the fully upgraded 1200/1210 is a really great deck. But until it is compared directly to another high end deck in the same pricerange, how can any say how great the Techy really is? I think my 1210mk2 is great now, that is without MN bearing, no ETP or expensive arm. I ask, because it is not easy to try out alot of TT at home.

[Audio Al]

Do you have a active audio group in Norway ? maybe arrange a a one day meet up with a techy user

[ChrisKemp]

Yes we have vinyl clubs not far from me. I could bring my 1210mk2 and have a listen and compare mine to others. That is a very good idea, Audio Al, but what I would be most interested in is a fully modded Technics, like some of the members on the AoS have. I don't know if there are any fully upgraded decks in Norway...

A fully modded vs xx. I can't find any threads of that on this forum either?

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

I'll come back to this later (as I've compared my modded Technics to quite a few high-end commercial T/Ts), but in the meantime, have a read at these threads:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1023-KAB-modified-SL-1210-vs-Slatedeck-SP10-a-review

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6889-A-battle-of-D-Ds-Heavily-modified-SL-1210-vs-Kenwood-L-07D-and-Nakamichi-TX-1000

Those were some comparisons I carried out years ago when my T/T was in a far lower state of modification than it is now :)



Marco.

[sonddek]

One afternoon I tried an XX-2/Uphorik with my SL1210/TimeStepHE/MikeNewBearing/EkosII, and with a Well Tempered Amadeus, versus a full Klimax Sondek (Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE, Akiva, Urika). There was very little in it, but I thought the 1210 held its own. It had the speed stability to match the WTA and very nearly as much detail as the Sondek. I felt the Sondek was the most detailed but least musical of the three decks due to the trademark speed instability, with subtle wobbling and de-tuning of sustained notes, and associated loss of melodic and harmonic tunefulness. The WTA was very musical but seemed very slightly to lack detail compared to the Ekossed decks. The Techie was about the best of both worlds: great detail and accurate pitch. If the playing field were leveled by putting the Ekos SE/Akiva on the Technics I would expect the Technics to match the Sondek for detail and win on speed stability/tunefulness.

[ChrisKemp]

Hi Chris,

I'll come back to this later (as I've compared my modded Technics to quite a few high-end commercial T/Ts), but in the meantime, have a read at these threads:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1023-KAB-modified-SL-1210-vs-Slatedeck-SP10-a-review

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6889-A-battle-of-D-Ds-Heavily-modified-SL-1210-vs-Kenwood-L-07D-and-Nakamichi-TX-1000

Those were some comparisons I carried out years ago when my T/T was in a far lower state of modification than it is now :)



Marco.
Thank you Marco and for the links. I've read them before, but I read them again. And it's impreswive how the modified Technics compare to older hiend decks, yes. This is why I wonder if it can compare to modern high end/ top class TT.

Waiting for your response here :)

[ChrisKemp]

One afternoon I tried an XX-2/Uphorik with my SL1210/TimeStepHE/MikeNewBearing/EkosII, and with a Well Tempered Amadeus, versus a full Klimax Sondek (Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE, Akiva, Urika). There was very little in it, but I thought the 1210 held its own. It had the speed stability to match the WTA and very nearly as much detail as the Sondek. I felt the Sondek was the most detailed but least musical of the three decks due to the trademark speed instability, with subtle wobbling and de-tuning of sustained notes, and associated loss of melodic and harmonic tunefulness. The WTA was very musical but seemed very slightly to lack detail compared to the Ekossed decks. The Techie was about the best of both worlds: great detail and accurate pitch. If the playing field were leveled by putting the Ekos SE/Akiva on the Technics I would expect the Technics to match the Sondek for detail and win on speed stability/tunefulness.

This is very impressive indeed. I guess the differense in price is huge between the Sondek and the Technics, too. Did you use the Mike New ETP platter or Oyaide?

And thank you for sharing :)

[Marco]

Thank you Marco and for the links. I've read them before, but I read them again. And it's impreswive how the modified Technics compare to older hiend decks, yes. This is why I wonder if it can compare to modern high end/ top class TT.

Waiting for your response here :)

Well, considering that the older high-end decks in question (those that were tested against my T/T) are better than about 90% of what's made today (especially the L0-7D), then that should answer your question!! ;)

However, I will comment further in relation to current high-end turntables later.

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

That would be great Marco :) That is why I write "compare". Because many say "my TT is better than"... Better is a very subjective word, and Rega RP-8/ P-9 owners will probably say that their TT is the best also. For me it sould be interesting to know what the differences are. An RP-8 is for sure a great TT. The same with Michell Gyro Deck or a JR Trans Rotor ZET-1 with their big and heavy platters and fantastic build and bearings. How would a fully upgraded 1200 compare to those newer decks?

[Andrei]

Chris
This does not answer you question directly but is food for thought. Consider the various retailers who sell modded 1200s. What is the pricing for example by Inspire who do the Monarch turntable? MCRU and Origin Live also. There are others I am sure. The retail pricing of those TTs is not proof of their sonic value but is an indication of their perception of where they sit in the market.

Another way of looking at it is this: rather than look at the turntables as a whole consider what you want from a TT. My checklist would would go something like this:
Speed Stability - low wow and flutter.
Speed accuracy - how close it is to 33 and 45.
Is it a good platform for a quality arm.
Vibration control - lots of sources of bad vibes. Motor, bearing, platter, footfall, airborne, stylus itself.
Quality of wiring.

So you can take turntable X and compare the essential features. If you can tick off each of your (modded) 1200's criteria as the equal of Turntable X; then - in theory at least - you have as good a turntable.

[ChrisKemp]

You have some very good points there, Andrei :)

[Beobloke]

Hi Chris,

I'll come back to this later (as I've compared my modded Technics to quite a few high-end commercial T/Ts), but in the meantime, have a read at these threads:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1023-KAB-modified-SL-1210-vs-Slatedeck-SP10-a-review

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6889-A-battle-of-D-Ds-Heavily-modified-SL-1210-vs-Kenwood-L-07D-and-Nakamichi-TX-1000

Those were some comparisons I carried out years ago when my T/T was in a far lower state of modification than it is now :)

Marco.

And the latter one STILL awaiting the Nakamichi TX-1000 thoughts as far as I can see....:D

[sonddek]

This is very impressive indeed. I guess the differense in price is huge between the Sondek and the Technics, too. Did you use the Mike New ETP platter or Oyaide?

No, I use a standard platter, but I have some sort of heavy plate which sits on top of it, and a rubber mat.

The effective prices of the three decks/phono-stages would roughly be:

Technics/Uphorik: 5350 GBP
WTA/Uphorik: 5850 GBP
Klimax Sondek: 15650 GBP

...but take into account that I have used the second-hand price of an Ekos II (1300 GBP) in that calculation, and a second-hand price of 100 GBP for the 1210 itself, because I got mine for 200 GBP with an OL modified RB250.

Around that time I also listened to Klimax Sondeks in other dealerships, and I thought the one used in this session was performing quite normally. After this listening session I decided that I would not spend any more on upgrading my own Sondek. I sold my Greenstreet subchassis, and use my Ekos II on my Technics and Garrard 301s.

[Marco]

And the latter one STILL awaiting the Nakamichi TX-1000 thoughts as far as I can see....:D

Heh-heh, indeed it is - it's a curse being so popular, you know!!

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

Well, considering that the older high-end decks in question (those that were tested against my T/T) are better than about 90% of what's made today (especially the L0-7D), then that should answer your question!! ;)

However, I will comment further in relation to current high-end turntables later.

Marco.

Hi Marco. Waking up this thread again and waiting on your comments... :)

Things have changed here a little, though. I sold my 1210mk2 (with the MN Bearing) and bought my friend's 1210mk5G. It has all the upgrades as my mk2 did, including the MN Bearing. The mk5G is one good looking TT:) Finally a shiny G for me too.

And since I desided to do the bearing upgrade I also desided to keep it. I think I will do the full upgrade with the ETP Platter also. My next upgrade will be a new Riaa and most likely the ASR Mini Basis Exclusive. But in the meantime I'm thinking of what kind of arm I should buy. As you know I have the fully modded KAB arm with the fluid damper.

I think I will go with a straight arm without removable headshell and the latest Audiomods arm comes to mind. I'm also curious about the Origin Live Silver. As for future cartridge I will probably go for a Zyx.

Audiomods or OL Silver? Or will a Jelco 750D be just as good? Any comments will be helpful:)

[Mike_New]

I have a fully modded (except arm and platter - as I'm happy with them) M5G and it does very well compared with my VPI Classic - at this point I can now change between carts etc and have some nice comparisons. I'm extremely happy having two such different tables (light platter/heavy platter, long arm/short arm, belt, direct,....) I wish I could have them side by side - but I just do not have the room.

In short - the Technics is capable of greatness.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af280/costerdo/IMG_2417_zpsa45319db.jpg

Hi Costerdock,
Far be it for me to criticise anyones physical room layout.
But can I say that putting your valve amp. on top of your speaker is a most unwise thing to do.
Valves are notoriously microphonic and will pick up LF vibrations though both the electrode plates and the heaters, (particularly the heaters) No amount of damping (which you may be using) between the amp. chassis and the speaker top will totally isolate the amp from feedback.

[CageyH]

Hi Marco. Waking up this thread again and waiting on your comments... :)

Things have changed here a little, though. I sold my 1210mk2 (with the MN Bearing) and bought my friend's 1210mk5G. It has all the upgrades as my mk2 did, including the MN Bearing. The mk5G is one good looking TT:) Finally a shiny G for me too.

And since I desided to do the bearing upgrade I also desided to keep it. I think I will do the full upgrade with the ETP Platter also. My next upgrade will be a new Riaa and most likely the ASR Mini Basis Exclusive. But in the meantime I'm thinking of what kind of arm I should buy. As you know I have the fully modded KAB arm with the fluid damper.

I think I will go with a straight arm without removable headshell and the latest Audiomods arm comes to mind. I'm also curious about the Origin Live Silver. As for future cartridge I will probably go for a Zyx.

Audiomods or OL Silver? Or will a Jelco 750D be just as good? Any comments will be helpful:)

Straight arm, and fixed headshell? One really good option would be the Funk FX1200, but I might be slightly biased.

[ChrisKemp]

Yes, thank you. I think maybe I have narrowed it down to Jelco 750d, Origin Live Silver or Audiomods.

[CageyH]

The Audiomods and OL Silver were arms I also considered. I don't think you can go wrong with either. I never really considered the Jelco, as it's very similar to the stock arm in appearances.
It's better than the stock, but I have heard mixed reports between it being moderately better to significantly better. I'll let the current users correct me here, but it must be pretty good, as you don't see many 2nd hand.

[MikeMusic]

The Audiomods and OL Silver were arms I also considered. I don't think you can go wrong with either. I never really considered the Jelco, as it's very similar to the stock arm in appearances.
It's better than the stock, but I have heard mixed reports between it being moderately better to significantly better. I'll let the current users correct me here, but it must be pretty good, as you don't see many 2nd hand.

I have a Jelco, available for sale, now upgraded to a Fidelity Research.
Not compared to a stock arm just know the FR is better than the Jelco - as it should be given the price difference !

[ChrisKemp]

But has anyone compared a fully modified Technics to a high end TT; especially:

- JR Transrotor ZET-1 or Fatbob S
- Rega RP8
- Linn Sondek LP12
- Mitchell GyroDeck
- Thorens 350
- Nottingham Spacedeck models

I mean compared to some of the most popular models on market today??

Anyone???

[Marco]

But has anyone compared a fully modified Technics to a high end TT; especially:

- JR Transrotor ZET-1 or Fatbob S
- Rega RP8
- Linn Sondek LP12
- Mitchell GyroDeck
- Thorens 350
- Nottingham Spacedeck models

I mean compared to some of the most popular models on market today??

Anyone???

Hi Chris,

Yes to 2, 3 and 4 (above). I've also compared it to numerous Thorens T/Ts, but not the 350. To my ears, (my own modded Techy) is considerably better than all of them, in the areas that matter and that are important to me. That last bit is crucial, however, as my best may not be your best.

Others who have different sonic and musical priorities may prefer something like an LP12 or a Gyro, which do some things better than any modified Technics will. It's a very difficult question to answer in any kind of way that will be of genuine use to you, quite simply because there as so many variables to consider.

I guess that a very basic answer would be that, IMO, an SL-1200/1210 modified to the same level as mine (or others similar to that) would almost certainly be at the same level of performance as any of the T/Ts you've listed, but some of the ones on your list may do certain things better, and vice versa in terms of the Techy.

Hope that helps a little :)

Marco.

[costerdock]

Hi Costerdock,
Far be it for me to criticise anyones physical room layout.
But can I say that putting your valve amp. on top of your speaker is a most unwise thing to do.
Valves are notoriously microphonic and will pick up LF vibrations though both the electrode plates and the heaters, (particularly the heaters) No amount of damping (which you may be using) between the amp. chassis and the speaker top will totally isolate the amp from feedback.

Chris - you have my answer already.

Mike (love the bearing by the way) - not a problem at all - and yes - I'm well aware of the potential issues. I've had the amps on the speakers for quite a while - then I moved them off onto my rack as advised by countless others - absolutely no difference in sound quality. I did have microphonic issues - but those were due to driver tubes - which I have since replaced with very good quality NOS GE and RCA tubes - dead quiet - no buzziing or wierd tube feedback. I've since moved the amps back - because the Cornwalls are extremely heavy at 100lbs - they sit on rubber cubs - and are completely secure to the floor - no vibrations - the amps are extremely heavy at @50lbs each - they sit on 1/4 inch rubber along with their squishy rubber feet. Absolutely no microphonics - dead silent - and able to produce concert level sound which is absolutely clear - and both tables handle it very well - I'll give the edge to the Technics - since the Isonoe footers do a much better job at dealing with vibrations due to walking around or drunken slam dancing :eyebrows:

Chris - I'd recommend you get a second dream table - that will make you the most happy - I now have two of the tables that I've always wanted and my looking for upgrades has stopped. As Marco correctly pointed out - each table is great - some do things better than the others - but there is no way that I'll give up my M5G nor my Classic now - I love them both.

Good luck!

[ChrisKemp]

Hi Chris,

Yes to 2, 3 and 4 (above). I've also compared it to numerous Thorens T/Ts, but not the 350. To my ears, (my own modded Techy) is considerably better than all of them, in the areas that matter and that are important to me. That last bit is crucial, however, as my best may not be your best.

Others who have different sonic and musical priorities may prefer something like an LP12 or a Gyro, which do some things better than any modified Technics will. It's a very difficult question to answer in any kind of way that will be of genuine use to you, quite simply because there as so many variables to consider.

I guess that a very basic answer would be that, IMO, an SL-1200/1210 modified to the same level as mine (or others similar to that) would almost certainly be at the same level of performance as any of the T/Ts you've listed, but some of the ones on your list may do certain things better, and vice versa in terms of the Techy.

Hope that helps a little :)

Marco.
Hi, Marco.

Yes, that says alot:)

The reason why I ask this question again is because I´m now starting to understand how great the Technics is. Since two weeks ago I have tried out two new Riaa in my system. I used to hav the Musical Fidelity V-LPSii + V-PSUii. A very good combo, but has it´s limitations of course.

I also had a little trouble with my Mike New Bearing in the beginning, because the bearing was noisy:scratch: But Mike and I worked it out. My bearing just took so long to run in. It was running day and night and now it is silent. I can hear it at start up for 1-2 turns then it settles down and I can´t hear it anymore:) Better treble dynamics and tighter bass is what I get from MN bearing.

The two Riaa´s and my new modified mk5G is really sounding great! One Riaa is the Graham Slee Reflex M connected with my Xindak MC-10 stepup. The other is Audion Premier tube Riaa also connected with my Xindac MC-10. And by the way, the Xindac stepup is a very very good stepup. It was tested in the norwegian Fidelity a couple of years ago by one of Norways hifi gurus and he loved the Xindac´s so much he bought them his self:eyebrows:

The midrange of the tube Riaa (Audion Premier) is absolutely fantastic. But it has too much bass for my set up. The Reflex M is in another league! Bass is tight and very dynamic, treble is crystal clear and the midrange is full and airy. It has it all. That is why I wonder; how much better can a different TT be? And now I know that my mk5G is right up there with the absolute best.:cool:

Lately I have been reading about the Jasmine LP2.0 mk2 Riaa. The Jasmine has gotten fantastic reviews, both in Norway and in the US, and can compete with Riaa all the way up to high end. So yesterday I ordered directly from the Factory in China, the brand new Jasmine LP2.5DU:eek:. This is even better than the mk2 and has the opportunity for two tonearms. Has 55db gain for MM and 70db gain for MC, is silent and has a PSU.

With the sound I have now and possibly even better with the comming Jasmine LP2.5DU that will arrive in two weeks time, I just know that I will keep my mk5G. I´m convinced, Marco and Costerdock:)

My next upgrade in some months will be the Oyaide MJ-12 (plus the 1mm Oyaide rubber mat). Then I will keep my KAB modified arm with Fluid Damper until I have saved up enough money to buy the Audiomds arm. I have read so much of this Audiomods arm and I just love the way it looks, too.

Thank you, Costerdock and Marco, for helping me making the desition to keep my 1210mk5G. And it looks absolutely great, too:)

[CageyH]

I'm another happy Graham Slee Reflex M user with a "modded" Technics. I have no desire for another deck based on audio quality alone.

[walpurgis]

I have no desire for another deck based on audio quality alone.

Not sure I follow Kevin. For what other reason would you buy one?

[CageyH]

Aesthetics.
Engineering quality.
Design.

[walpurgis]

Aesthetics.
Engineering quality.
Design.

Fair enough. They are good criteria, but I personally put the sound first and ergonomics some way behind and as long as the thing won't fall apart, I don't worry too much about the engineering. The aesthetics & design don't concern me.

[ChrisKemp]

If there is one thing the Technics won't do, is fall apart:)

[walpurgis]

If there is one thing the Technics won't do, is fall apart:)

Depends how high you drop it from! :D

[CageyH]

Fair enough. They are good criteria, but I personally put the sound first and ergonomics some way behind and as long as the thing won't fall apart, I don't worry too much about the engineering. The aesthetics & design don't concern me.

It has to pass the Mrs H approval test.
I find the weights on the Michell Orbe mesmerising. You can sit there and watch it for hours.

The point is that my Technics is producing a pretty good sound. It's not as tweaked as some other members of the forums decks, but I think that to improve the sound, you'll have to spend thousands. So, if we take value for money as the no.1 criteria, as long as you can live with the industrial looks of an SL1200, I think it's hard to beat. Mine has been upgraded over two years and I have enjoyed the journey. I'd love to hear it up against some serious competition, and then compare the expenditure on each deck.

Of course, if money is no object, then I would probably want a hyperdeck or something similar.

[topmetom]

I have a rega p3, people tell me the techie would beat this for sound quality though? What do you think?

[ChrisKemp]

I agree, but what is so great with the Technics is that I can upgrade in steps. So yes, when it's fully modified it will cost £2000+ but for me that is easier than buying a TT that cost £2000+. Also I plan to buy an Audiomods arm or maybe a Micro Seiki MA-202, and if I choose to buy a different TT in the future, I can use the Audiomods arm on the other TT. If I upgrade the tonearm I will keep the KAB arm with the Fluid Damper.

[CageyH]

I think a modified techie would, but in standard form both offer a different type of sound.
It's a question about which one you prefer.

[CageyH]

I agree, but what is so great with the Technics is that I can upgrade in steps. So yes, when it's fully modified it will cost £2000+ but for me that is easier than buying a TT that cost £2000+. Also I plan to buy an Audiomods arm or maybe a Micro Seiki MA-202, and if I choose to buy a different TT in the future, I can use the Audiomods arm on the other TT. If I upgrade the tonearm I will keep the KAB arm with the Fluid Damper.

Just check that if you are planning on the Technics specific Audiomods arm, that you can remove the arm board. My understanding is that it is a drop in unit. After what I have heard from my deck, I would encourage people to try a Funk arm. I am really impressed with what AK has done with my standard Technics arm.

[Beobloke]

I find the weights on the Michell Orbe mesmerising. You can sit there and watch it for hours.


Actually, it's the Gyrodec that has the spinning weights - the Orbe's platter is solid. I know this as my wife cannot be in the same room as my Gyro SE when it's spinning otherwise she starts to feel sick very quickly.

I'm tempted to get her to stump up for an Orbe platter/bearing upgrade but personally, like you, I love the spinning weights!

[Tarzan]

Actually, it's the Gyrodec that has the spinning weights - the Orbe's platter is solid. I know this as my wife cannot be in the same room as my Gyro SE when it's spinning otherwise she starts to feel sick very quickly.

I'm tempted to get her to stump up for an Orbe platter/bearing upgrade but personally, like you, I love the spinning weights!


Yes and the fact it sounds pretty darn good too.......:cool:

[Audio Al]

Yes and the fact it sounds pretty darn good too.......:cool:


You cant help NOT look at them :eek:

only thing missing is


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ1JiPyXw2w

I think Andy keeps this for private pleasure ;)

[Tarzan]

That is Pishanto in a naked ie; non musical form a result of which which would not be allowed anywhere in my music room.

[Tarzan]

Besides my Gyro is better looking and most certainly better sounding.:ner:

[Beobloke]

I love my Gyro but personally I'd swap it for Kylie without a moment's hesitation...

:eyebrows:

[Gazjam]

Heard a fully modded Techie at the weekend, also heard a couple of 401's, one with linear tracking arm and another with Michell technoarm.

To me (and my ears) the Techie was a fair bit behind in involvement, realism and that "x factor" I heard with the 401's..
T'was good, especially in terms of soundstage but didn't have the magic I heard from the 401's.

Personally, I've just got a Gyro SE with the full Orbe upgrades, including double spider, but not set her up yet.
Looking fwd to that. :)

[Stratmangler]

Heard a fully modded Techie at the weekend, also heard a couple of 401's, one with linear tracking arm and another with Michell technoarm.

To me (and my ears) the Techie was a fair bit behind in involvement, realism and that "x factor" I heard with the 401's..
T'was good, especially in terms of soundstage but didn't have the magic I heard from the 401's.

Personally, I've just got a Gyro SE with the full Orbe upgrades, including double spider, but not set her up yet.
Looking fwd to that. :)

It could be any one or a combination of things you were hearing with the Technics Gaz.
It could be a lack of resonance distortion, after all the deck in question does have a MN bearing, MN platter, LDA offboard PSU etc.
There were even SLIC cables in the equation.
I wouldn't judge anything by the results you hear in the room at Owston, although it is possible to get a reasonable idea of what's going on - the room is a known problem in itself.

Enjoy the Gyro - they're good decks.

[Marco]

Is it Brooksy's Techy you're referring to, Gaz? If so, I can totally understand where you're coming from, especially if it was fitted with his usual SME/Ortofron Kontrapunkt combo, which for me although decent enough, just doesn't produce musical synergy.

Although let's not forget that a well-sorted 401, in a quality plinth, is a hard act to beat... However, in the past when I've taken my Techy to Owston (even in a much less 'fettled' state than it is now), it had no problem competing with an assortment of Garrards.

I must make the effort to attend the next Owston, and bring the Techy with me, as it would be interesting to see how it fairs these days against some of the top-notch T/Ts that folk bring to the event. It's interesting too, that the Slics didn't appear to act as the 'universal panacea' that some make out, as I'm not sensing much love there... ;)

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

Just ordered my last upgrade in 2014, according to my wife, that is; the Oyaide MJ-12 + Oyaide BR-ONE. I already have a Rek-o-Kut weight (440g) and I think it would work great with the MJ-12. As I understand the Oyaide weight is also 440g. The ETP is way too expensive for me and I hope that the MJ-12/ BR-ONE is as great as people say it is. And I think it looks absolutely fantastic on the Technics. In 1-2 weeks I will know:)

[ChrisKemp]

I have long wondered how good a fully modified 1210 is. Now I know:) My 1210M5G is now completed and the newly bought DL-103R is also run in and the Oyaide MJ-12/ BR-One is in full effect.

I had my father over for a demo yesterday. He has been a hifi enthusiast all his life. He said that my system had so much synergy that it might be the best he has ever heard.

If someone say that a fully modified 1210 misses involvement or PRaT, the something is very wrong. My system is SO dynamic, tight, airy and full of involvement that I now don't have any desire for another deck. I don´t even have desire to upgrade my fully modified KAB arm. I think I have just the right amount of fluid in the KAB Damper, too. I have experimented alot with the amount of fluid and now it is just right in my setup..

My ProAc Response D25 is so fast, tight, deep and open and I totally understand why ProAc is such a sought after speaker.

Yesterday I bought to new LPs. Jazz at the Pawnshop and the last album from Royksopp feat. Robyn. Fantastic:):) Now I'm waiting for my first 45 RPM LP (Hugh Masekela "Hope").

I want to thank many in here for guiding and tips, espesially you Marco. I can now consentrate on listening to music, with my toes tapping and with a big smile on my face:)

[MikeMusic]

I have long wondered how good a fully modified 1210 is. Now I know:) My 1210M5G is now completed


Well you say that now........
:)

I thought I was more or less finished - then the Isonoes feet, Tecniboots, FR arm and the MN platter.
Now the MN bearing has taken my interest........

[ChrisKemp]

Well you say that now........
:)

I thought I was more or less finished - then the Isonoes feet, Tecniboots, FR arm and the MN platter.
Now the MN bearing has taken my interest........
Hehe, yes I know what you mean:) I have the MN Bearing and the Isonoe. I will order the TecniBoots shortly, but they are cheap. But I have no desire to change anything right now. In the future, different thing. My cartridge after the Denon DL-103R might be a London Decca Super Gold, but I´m speaking two years minimum.

[twotone]

Chris, 'Hope' is one fantastic record, Stimela being the standout but the whole record is just bleeding brilliant.

[MikeMusic]

Hehe, yes I know what you mean:) I have the MN Bearing and the Isonoe. I will order the TecniBoots shortly, but they are cheap. But I have no desire to change anything right now. In the future, different thing. My cartridge after the Denon DL-103R might be a London Decca Super Gold, but I´m speaking two years minimum.
The Techniboots are stupid value for money. Go buy some right away
I barely believed what I heard when I put them on
They do make the deck look 'clumpy' but who cares if more music comes through !

I shall be trying Isonoes and the 'boots on other kit

[ChrisKemp]

Chris, 'Hope' is one fantastic record, Stimela being the standout but the whole record is just bleeding brilliant.

Great to hear! I can't wait to listen to it:)

[ChrisKemp]

Chris, 'Hope' is one fantastic record, Stimela being the standout but the whole record is just bleeding brilliant.

Received the 200g, 45 rpm today and listened to Stimela. By far the best I've ever heard and my number one demo album. It blows the CD version by a good margin, too!

[twotone]

Received the 200g, 45 rpm today and listened to Stimela. By far the best I've ever heard and my number one demo album. It blows the CD version by a good margin, too!

Top stuff Chris, enjoy it :cool:

There was a guy on one of the forums (might have been here) who claimed that Masekela was basically rubbish and the Hope was crap after I had posted about how good it was.

BTW, Nomali is fantastic too.

[allthingsanalogue]

Received the 200g, 45 rpm today and listened to Stimela. By far the best I've ever heard and my number one demo album. It blows the CD version by a good margin, too!

How's the 1210 upgrade path going. Did you get the ETP?

[ChrisKemp]

How's the 1210 upgrade path going. Did you get the ETP?
No, I have not yet made up my mind about the ETP platter. The price of the ETP is making me wonder if I should upgrade to a better phono stage instead?

[CageyH]

That's my problem with the ETP. There isn't a try before you buy scheme available anymore.

[Mike_New]

"That' my problem with the ETP. There isn't a try before you buy scheme available anymore. "
Come on folks you know that it's the best that money can buy!!!

[Marco]

Different type of upgrade, Chris... Both will alter the sound in different (beneficial) ways. Remember, however, that no phono stage, no matter how good it is, can make up for any information lost at SOURCE.

The source, of course, or if you like, the 'business end' of proceedings, is where the turntable is spinning records, and the arm and cartridge reading musical information contained on them. Employing the use of an ETP platter at that point will allow for extracting greater levels of musical information and delivering it in a more involving and satisfying way to you, the listener.

No phono stage can do that, as its role in proceedings comes into play further down in the chain. Therefore, when it comes to T/Ts, it's SOURCE FIRST all the way! ;)

Marco.

[CageyH]

"That' my problem with the ETP. There isn't a try before you buy scheme available anymore. "
Come on folks you know that it's the best that money can buy!!!

No, I don't. I have never heard one.

[Marco]

I sense a wee holiday to the south of France in the making...... ;)

Marco.

[CageyH]

Mike may have more success if someone in the UK had a "loan" platter that they could send out.
This works well on another forum that I am a member of. The person wanting to borrow it is responsible for the postage both ways.

[ChrisKemp]

Different type of upgrade, Chris... Both will alter the sound in different (beneficial) ways. Remember, however, that no phono stage, no matter how good it is, can make up for any information lost at SOURCE.

The source, of course, or if you like, the 'business end' of proceedings, is where the turntable is spinning records, and the arm and cartridge reading musical information contained on them. Employing the use of an ETP platter at that point will allow for extracting greater levels of musical information and delivering it in a more involving and satisfying way to you, the listener.

No phono stage can do that, as its role in proceedings comes into play further down in the chain. Therefore, when it comes to T/Ts, it's SOURCE FIRST all the way! ;)

Marco.
This is all very true:) But I do have to wait for the funds. A great idea, yes, if Mike would provide a ETP loaner platter that could be sent around for testing before buying. That would help me alot:)

[Marco]

Mike may have more success if someone in the UK had a "loan" platter that they could send out.
This works well on another forum that I am a member of. The person wanting to borrow it is responsible for the postage both ways.

Sounds like a good idea to me! The benefits for Mike would be along the lines of 'speculate to accumulate', which is something many good businesses do with their products :)

Mike, what about it?

Marco.

[Clive197]

Come on folks you know that it's the best that money can buy!!!

That may be a valid opinion, but it is NOT a fact. Folk that have an investment in the platter are not going to do anything else but enthuse. You used to have a distributer in the UK who was extremely helpful in loaning bits of kit which allowed potential customer to make informed decisions. I purchased my own bearing with that safety net in place.

Clive

PS: I'm very happy with the Mike New Bearing

[Wakefield Turntables]

The ETP only offers a slight improvement over the original Al/Cu bonded platter IMHO. The cost for that improvement was too great, I didn't feel I had SPPV so I kept my original platter (which I think is excellent by the way).

[Mike_New]

Sounds like a good idea to me! The benefits for Mike would be along the lines of 'speculate to accumulate', which is something many good businesses do with their products :)

Mike, what about it?

Marco.

Yes I hear what you are all saying, However there are a host of commercial reasons why not to do it.
What if the platter gets lost in the post or is not packed correctly by the last evaluator.
Proper care of the platter by the current user.
How long does the person have to decide?
The elapsed time between deliveries to the various prospects.
What comitment do the various people make to buy??

I am not saying that I am not interested. I just need to think about it, especially as I am selling platters at a reasonable rate.

[CageyH]

The other forum I use has specific rules for this.
Insured & tracked postage.
Loan period a maximum of two weeks. Not sure what happens about damage. I guess if it was done in the post, insurance claims would be required.

[Oldpinkman]

The ETP only offers a slight improvement over the original Al/Cu bonded platter IMHO. The cost for that improvement was too great, I didn't feel I had SPPV so I kept my original platter (which I think is excellent by the way).

Interesting. Of course any manufacturer making a platter is likely to be trying to get the best solution - and it costs what it costs. So if ETP is a bit better than the Al/CU one and the ETP is a reasonable cost for what it is, the fact that the additional cost of upgrading from one good platter (Al/Cu) to another good platter (ETP) is "not worth it" is not the fault of the new better platter. Starting from scratch, without the original investment in the first upgrade, the ETP is presumably fair value. At least, whether or not it is fair value has everything to do with how well it performs, and the price compared with production and distribution cost, and nothing to do with what another upgrade platter does or costs.

Regarding the "not much difference" I think this may be due to some confusion about what a platter does. I have corresponded privately with Cagey about this (he initially found no difference, or negligible difference between funk 1 and strata), treating him to a brief history of Pink Triangle product development, and the "science" or theories at least behind the evolution from acrylic to achromat to strata. A lot of the issue is that the "thing" (platter and mat if there is one) is really record support and termination. They are an integrated function. Pink Triangle pioneered this by having a platter which did both jobs, instead of termination being the mat, and support being the platter. But what works goes beyond just getting the platter/mat right - and depends on how the turntable itself deals with waste energy from the stylus.

So, if your mat is the termination and doing a good job, all that is left for the platter mechanically is to support the mat and record - and 2 quite different platters might do that equally well, or similarly well. With a different mat there may be more difference in the platters(or no mat - I had a feeling ETP could be - maybe should be - used naked)

I gather the bit of Pink Triangle history has helped Cagey get things working well in his system after a hesitant start. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting. Of course any manufacturer making a platter is likely to be trying to get the best solution - and it costs what it costs. So if ETP is a bit better than the Al/CU one and the ETP is a reasonable cost for what it is, the fact that the additional cost of upgrading from one good platter (Al/Cu) to another good platter (ETP) is "not worth it" is not the fault of the new better platter. Starting from scratch, without the original investment in the first upgrade, the ETP is presumably fair value. At least, whether or not it is fair value has everything to do with how well it performs, and the price compared with production and distribution cost, and nothing to do with what another upgrade platter does or costs.

Regarding the "not much difference" I think this may be due to some confusion about what a platter does. I have corresponded privately with Cagey about this (he initially found no difference, or negligible difference between funk 1 and strata), treating him to a brief history of Pink Triangle product development, and the "science" or theories at least behind the evolution from acrylic to achromat to strata. A lot of the issue is that the "thing" (platter and mat if there is one) is really record support and termination. They are an integrated function. Pink Triangle pioneered this by having a platter which did both jobs, instead of termination being the mat, and support being the platter. But what works goes beyond just getting the platter/mat right - and depends on how the turntable itself deals with waste energy from the stylus.

So, if your mat is the termination and doing a good job, all that is left for the platter mechanically is to support the mat and record - and 2 quite different platters might do that equally well, or similarly well. With a different mat there may be more difference in the platters(or no mat - I had a feeling ETP could be - maybe should be - used naked)

I gather the bit of Pink Triangle history has helped Cagey get things working well in his system after a hesitant start. ;)

Richard I'm going to be blunt. I couldn't give a $hit about how much something costs to make, as a company you have to suck it up and spend money to develop new products, it's as simple as that. I'm a consumer, if I don't think something offers me value I don't buy it.

[Marco]

So, if your mat is the termination and doing a good job, all that is left for the platter mechanically is to support the mat and record - and 2 quite different platters might do that equally well, or similarly well. With a different mat there may be more difference in the platters(or no mat - I had a feeling ETP could be - maybe should be - used naked)


There's also the issue of resonance and damping, things which some platters are better designed to address than others. In terms of mats, or no mat, as the case may be, you're right that the ETP sounds excellent, used 'au naturel'. It also has a label recess cut out for that purpose.

However, I achieved even better results by using the ETP in conjunction with a Nagaoka crystal (glass) mat, as shown here:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/O8a6fh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/exO8a6fhj)


I bought the mat from Paul (Reffc), and he describes it's design and benefits here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34568-Nagaoka-GL-602-Crystal-Turntable-Mat

The combination of the above (along with one of Mark, YNWaN's, magnetic record clamps) produces a stunningly good sound, where real synergy appears to be at work. Highly recommended, and to my ears, on my T/T, significantly better than any other mat/platter combo I've used to date! :cool:

Marco.

[CageyH]

So a glass platter may be better than the ETP? ;)

[Marco]

Lol.... Who knows? I doubt it, as the success of the ETP's design will partly be down to how the materials that are used [Delrin or a derivative thereof, perhaps some other form of thermoplastic] allow the platter to 'behave', sonically. The specialised crystal (totally non-resonant) glass mat, designed by Nagaoka, seems to form a formidable partnership with the ETP.

'Normal' mats, especially the awful rubber ones often supplied by T/T manufacturers, absorb a lot of the musical information stored on records, which casts a veil over the sound and muddies transients.

The principle behind the Nagaoka crystal mat is that energy which is normally wasted, by being sunk into the mat (acting as a damper), is instead retained within the cantilever/generator assembly of the cartridge, thus otherwise lost musical information is retained, producing a clearer, more open and much more detailed sound.

Certainly, in listening tests, when other mats I've got here (Blue Horizon, Achromat, felt and rubber mats) are used, switching to the Nagaoka instead is akin to drawing the curtains open in a dull room, and letting the sunshine in! Indeed, such is the level of sonic improvement gained, that it makes all other mats I've used sound 'broken' :)

Marco.

[prestonchipfryer]

Certainly, in listening tests, when other mats I've got here (Blue Horizon, Achromat, felt and rubber mats) are used, switching to the Nagaoka instead is akin to drawing the curtains open in a dull room, and letting the sunshine in! Indeed, such is the level of sonic improvement gained, that it makes all other mats I've used sound 'broken' :)

Marco.


Having tried numerous mats with the ETP platter (Oyaide, Achromat, Sound Dead Steel, felt and rubber) I would agree with Marco that the Nagaoka glass mat works very well with the ETP.

John

[aniki]

...when other mats I've got here (Blue Horizon, Achromat, felt and rubber mats) are used, switching to the Nagaoka instead is akin to drawing the curtains open in a dull room, and letting the sunshine in! Indeed, such is the level of sonic improvement gained, that it makes all other mats I've used sound 'broken'...

This was exactly my experience when switching to the resomat. Albeit on a standard platter. Have you used the resomat Marco?

[CageyH]

Yeah, but that was last month. :eyebrows:

[Marco]

This was exactly my experience when switching to the resomat. Albeit on a standard platter. Have you used the resomat Marco?

Hi Adam,

Yup, it's really good, and does all the things you're relating to. It was my favourite mat before I discovered the Nagaoka. On my T/T, the Nagaoka moves that effect on further still, but at some cost (approximately five times that of the Resomat).

VFM/SPPV wise, the Resomat has it, but for those seeking to eke out that last few percent of performance from their T/Ts, certainly with an ETP platter in the equation, I'd thoroughly recommend the Naga - if you can still find one! :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

The principle behind the Nagaoka crystal mat is that energy which is normally wasted, by being sunk into the mat (acting as a damper), is instead retained within the cantilever/generator assembly of the cartridge, thus otherwise lost musical information is retained, producing a clearer, more open and much more detailed sound.

Marco.

Yes. As I pointed out to Cagey - which mat/platter will work well depend on the design of the turntable as a whole, and what you are trying to do with the problem "waste" energy from the stylus's friction with the record. In a perfect situation there would be no waste energy to do anything with - all of the kinetic energy at the stylus would be perfectly transduced to electrical energy. No problem resonances and no waste! But it aint ever perfect.

Now - the man what really knows is on holiday this week, with a big "do not disturb" sign on the door. However, I am pretty sure he would baulk a bit at that description. Certainly damping (which controls the resonances) is not his favourite solution (see also my comments about arms, and platter rigidity). Damping, in addition to controlling resonances and "spikes" tends to dull and muddy the sound as you describe. (Hence FXR with its +-3db resonance plots and no damping - smooth detailed "live" sound). But if you can't have no waste energy, next best is usually to channel it away "neutrally". Reflecting back just shoves it into the arm - and since there is only one arm I know of which can handle that energy "nicely" - FXR/FX3/FX1200 with resonances controlled for 10Hz to 20Khz +-3db, then reflecting the energy up into the arm just amplifies the arm resonance problems. Of course, you can use damping and decoupling in the arm, but that makes for a muddy sound and loss of detail...

I mentioned to Cagey, that in theory at least there are other ways to skin the cat from the original Pink Triangle solution - and feeding the energy back evenly is that other way to skin the cat - but it has the problems I outlined above. The Pink Triangle solution was to channel it away "neutrally" (all frequencies the same). This was achieved by a thick acrylic platter. The acrylic (like delron) is a close impedance match to vinyl, so used without a mat, you effectively have a VERY VERY thick record. In the PT's case the energy which is in that thick record passes via a very high quality bearing into a sub-chassis which disperses it as heat (mostly). A thin acrylic mat doesn't help. Its an impedance match with the record, but a bad impedance match to the platter. The acrylic platter also benefitted from being light weight - which was essential to work with the small tip inverted bearing, essential for stability and good energy transfer. However, very light platter mass is less critical with a more conventional bearing design like spin (and current funk bearings)

The weakness of the acrylic platter is that its relative softness (lack of rigidity) effectively adds that unwanted damping element again. Achromat was the solution to a mat instead of a thick platter. Achromat material gives a good impedance match, but instead of channelling the energy away to a sub-chassis to disperse it, it is dispersed by the tiny bubbles in the mat - again - mostly as heat. So once you have achromat the question is how can you supply the most rigid and non-resonant undamped platter to support it? Answer -strata. Again, coming back to those "can I use it with another mat" questions. That misses the point. The point is not "which mat should I use with strata". The question is "which platter should I use to optimise achromat"?

But - whilst not challenging your right to enjoy what you hear from your Nagoaka mat - it seems a bit arse about face with regard to which bit should be rigid and non-resonant, and which bit should grip and interface with the LP. Evidently it works well for you

For the record though - energy cannot be retained in the cantilever or (anywhere else for that matter). It may be transferred to them efficiently, but it won't be retained in them. And if it is transferred to the cantilever, and not dispersed as some other energy form (heat or acoustic being the 2 prime candidates) it is going to pass into the arm tube. How much that is a good thing will depend on the arm tube and cantilever construction. But whilst I know you will be confident the ones you use will be matched and splendid for the job - that is not obvious for most cantilevers and arm tubes. Think about it. Why do you want to feed energy into a cantilever? its just going to be noise - which will only have a neutral effect on the sound if any materials it passes to respond evenly across the audio frequency spectrum to that energy input (ie have no significant resonance peaks)

(The music to be "retained in the cartridge coils" is from the wiggling of the cantilever by the grooves of the record. The energy you are talking about - the waste energy "needle talk" is a problem which potentially will cause the stylus wiggling to be imperfectly reflected in the cartridge coils. Don't muddle your energies! No mat or platter is going to influence (directly) the primary energy transferred to the cartridge coils - that is a function of the record moving the stylus tip back and forth - so no chance of it being "sucked up" by damping)

But, at the risk of repeating myself in what I appreciate is not the clearest post - the issue is controlling the waste energy. Doing so with damping is bad. Just reflecting it up to the arm via the cantilever, is only going to work if the arm can handle it - without damping/decoupling. Most can't .

But if it works for you - enjoy it. ;)

[Marco]

Lol - what are you like? :doh: :eyebrows:


But if it works for you - enjoy it.


It certainly does, on my T/T and my system, and (as good as it was) better than the Achromat did. These things are obviously heavily turntable and system dependent.

If I compared the MKI Funk platter/bonded Achromat combo, which I used before, with the MN ETP/Nagaoka, I'd say the latter was about 15-20% better overall, in any sonic or musical area you care to mention.

Obviously, however, I've not tried the Strata :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

Or the Spin.
As said before, before I decide on which platter I will use, I really need to hear the ETP. :scratch:
I know how good Spin/Strata is now I have resolved my set up issue.

It would be really interesting to hear the Nagaoka mat on a Mk1 Funk platter too.
I just feel that it seems pointless to change the platter material slightly, if you cover it up, but what do I know. :scratch:

[Marco]

When I first got the ETP I used it to good effect, sans mat. Then I tried a Resomat, which was better, and after that the Nagaoka crystal mat, which was better still.

For me, nothing in hi-fi is ever written in stone, so experimenting is the order of the day, which is when you often discover some superb combinations of things that 'just work'. The Nagaoka/ETP, on my T/T, is one such combination :)

Marco.

[Mike_New]

I have just dialed into the web pages of Nagaoka and it seems that they are out-of-stock.
Further down the page they seem to indiacte that they are not making any more.

[CageyH]

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

[Marco]

It is a discontinued product, Mike, but some outlets have small stocks remaining, for example Juno Records, here on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/111631812631?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&rlsatarget=&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

And Divine Audio have one left, at a VERY good price: https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/nagaoka-gl-602-crystal-turntable-mat?gclid=Cj0KEQjwgoKqBRDt_IfLr8y1iMUBEiQA8Ua7XU5E 8WukCUudxHU93HxejpYBaXDQrTC9-CEdR8UMtsMaArhC8P8HAQ

As no more are being produced by Nagaoka, when remaining stocks are gone, they're gone, which is why when Paul was selling them a while back, I snapped one up! The Nagaoka is truly one of the great NOS T/T products ever made, from the heyday of high-end audio :)

Not recommended, however, for belt-drive T/Ts with puny little motor units, as the mat weighs 1kg! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

Dunno, Kev. That's not one I've tried. Certainly the difference between a MKI Funk platter (with bonded Achromat), and an ETP, used 'au naturel', on my T/T, was pretty significant. How much the Nagaoka mat would level the playing field, in that respect, remains to be seen, should anyone be in the position to try it.

Marco.

[CageyH]

£100 for a mat seems a bit steep if I don't like it. Especially if I don't end up keeping the Mk1 platter.

[Marco]

No-one was asking you to buy one......

If you did though, and didn't like it, given its relative rarity (due to increase once all remaining stocks have been exhausted), I suspect you'd have no problem moving it on and getting your money back :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

I know nobody was. It would just make an interesting comparison while I still have Strata here on loan.

A valid point about shipping it on.
More food for thought....

[Marco]

Indeed. If you bought the Nagaoka, and didn't like it, I'm almost certain that within an hour of advertising it for sale here, it'd be gone. Therefore, at worst, call it £120 to partake in an interesting experiment, and at best, it could be just the solution you're looking for :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

Yep, but I hope to place the order for the FH3s this month. :)

[Marco]

Wosser FH3s when they're at home? :scratch:

Marco.

[CageyH]

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

[walpurgis]

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

Hmm. Frugel Horns. They should be interesting. What sensitivity are you looking at with those Kevin?

I reckon you're going to need some super smooth and sweet valve amplification there. :)

[Marco]

Electricbeach FH3 speakers.

Ah, I see... Knew nowt about those. Enjoy! :)

Marco,

[Tarzan]

Ah, I see... Knew nowt about those. Enjoy! :)

Marco,

Fort ewe knew everything master.:ner:

[Audio Al]

Fort ewe knew everything master.:ner:

No No No :nono:

That was my ex wife :D

[CageyH]

Hmm. Frugel Horns. They should be interesting. What sensitivity are you looking at with those Kevin?

I reckon you're going to need some super smooth and sweet valve amplification there. :)

They will be usingthe Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 drivers - https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/markaudio-alpair-7a-gold-cone-4-full-range/

My amps are supposed to work really well with the speakers, so it will be interesting to find out just how good these are. Only issue is the 200 hours of running them in.

[Tarzan]

No No No :nono:

That was my ex wife :D

Never knew you and Marco were once an item.:scratch:
















:eek:

[CageyH]

I have just dialed into the web pages of Nagaoka and it seems that they are out-of-stock.
Further down the page they seem to indiacte that they are not making any more.

This looks similar (almost identical), but cheaper - http://www.analogueseduction.net/turntable-mats/analogue-studio-crystal-glass-turntable-platter-mat.html

[Marco]

Nice find, Kevin. That could well do a very similar job! So when are you ordering one? ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Never knew you and Marco were once an item.:scratch:


I chucked him because he was a snide ride.....

Marco.

[Audio Al]

I chucked him because he was a snide ride.....

Marco.

Cast to one side for a Sheep :doh:

[Spectral Morn]

This looks similar (almost identical), but cheaper - http://www.analogueseduction.net/turntable-mats/analogue-studio-crystal-glass-turntable-platter-mat.html

Doesn't look even close in quality imho.


Regards Neil

[CageyH]

It's pretty hard to tell from a photo.

[ChrisKemp]

Well, this thread have lately turned into another platter debate:scratch: And we have some of those threads already on the forum. The ETP platter is always interesting to discuss, and still I would like to hear it before I buy such an expensive platter. How much differense will I get compared to the Oyaide BR-One butyl mat + Oyaide MJ-12?

I have also been thinking of saving up to buy a second TT. I would have a hard time to part with my M5G now and maybe the best thing to do would be to get a second table? One of the best looking tables in my eyes are the Nottingham Analogue tables; and espesially the Space 294 and the Hyperspace. I once heard the NAS Annalog and it sounded fantastic. But that was before I got into vinyl.

Has any of you any comments when it comes to comparing the sound of a modifies Technics to a NAS Ace Space 294 or NAS Hyperspace? What would I expect with the NAS?

My music is mostly jazz and classical music. Other music I listen to would be Dire Straits and Tracy Chapman...hardly any rock music....

NAS vs modified techy??:scratch:

[ChrisKemp]

Well, I'll might as well write it here, since I started this thread. Yesterday I ordered a Mike New ETP Platter (same as the one Marco got Mike told me). I'm very excited and really hope it will be a noticable upgrade compared to the Oyaide platter:) This upgrade will hopefully turn my great TT into something very different and high end kind of table...

I'll post some pctures and a mini review when I have it installed.

[MikeMusic]

I found the Mike New platter better than the Oyaide on top of the Funk platter
Nice, subtle improvement

[Marco]

Well, I'll might as well write it here, since I started this thread. Yesterday I ordered a Mike New ETP Platter (same as the one Marco got Mike told me). I'm very excited and really hope it will be a noticable upgrade compared to the Oyaide platter. This upgrade will hopefully turn my great TT into something very different and high end kind of table...

I'll post some pctures and a mini review when I have it installed.

Way-hey, well done, Chris - I knew you'd get there in the end! :thumbsup:

Expect the ETP to 'calm' things down and make the whole musical presentation much more, 'grown up', finessed and effortless, essentially allowing the T/T to take everything in its stride.

One of the things I always found, when the stock Technics platter was in the equation, no matter which mat accompanied it, was the existence of a kind of 'zingy'/etched quality to the sound, and a slight roughness/'uncouth' nature to the sonic presentation, which simply reminded you that you were listening to a good T/T, but not a great one.

The ETP platter changes all that, refining every aspect of how the T/T reproduces music, giving it that sense of 'correctness', believability and 'un-rushed' quality that one only gets when listening to the best, most 'sorted', if you will, turntables. Make sure you take your time fitting it, paying close attention to every aspect of Mike's instructions, and you should be a happy bunny!

Try the platter initially, 'au naturel', without a mat, as it will have a label recess cut out, and see how you get on. Later, you may wish to try using a Resomat, which for me improves things a little further. One other small point I'd add is that, with the ETP, you may no longer need to use the Techniboots (with your Isonoes), as the ETP sorts out the resonance issues the boots would've been addressing with the stock platter in place.

Good luck and let us know when your ETP arrives! :cool:

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

Thank you very much, Marco:) I will post pictures and a little review once I get it:cool:

[Marco]

Looking forward to that, Chris :)

Marco.

[ChrisKemp]

Just received the ETP:) But no instructions included. Guess Mike's asleep down under, so if anyone can help me out I can try it out tonight:D

[CageyH]

Isn't it just a case of swapping over the magnet assembly from the old platter?
Based on my experience with the Funk platters, align all four holes, and fit the screws from the original platter.

[aniki]

Just received the ETP:) But no instructions included. Guess Mike's asleep down under, so if anyone can help me out I can try it out tonight:D
Hey Chris, if you PM me your email address I'll send you the instructions. I have a copy on my Mac that Mike sent me. It's def worth having them as there are a few little things to look out for.

[ChrisKemp]

Thanks guys:) I took the chance of just unscrewing the three screws. I thought more would come off, but when I saw it was just the magnet ring it was very easy:)

Just had a quick spin tonight, and I can share my experience later:)

[Mike_New]

I did in include the Instructions I have just checked the email I sent him.
It could be that somehow they did not get registered with the text.

[Andrei]

Thanks guys:) I took the chance of just unscrewing the three screws. I thought more would come off, but when I saw it was just the magnet ring it was very easy:)

Just had a quick spin tonight, and I can share my experience later:)

The magnet should be perfectly concentric to the spindle hole. I suggest you get a mat or paper template with strobe markings, so that you can test the speed stability.

[Mike_New]

The counter bore which houses the Ferite ring magnet is machined 'in situe' and contiguous with the machining of the location hole for the boss.
This ensures absolute concentricity of the magnet.
Also the bore is machined with a tollerance which address's the small changes in dimensions of the assembly and permits the accurate centering of the Magnet assembly into the bore.
The ETP PLatter is also run on my SL1200 test-bed for 2 hours prior to posting,
using a speed indicator strobe.
So you see there is no way the ferrite magnet assembly can be out of centre, however there will always be "experts" who
have never used an ETP Platter who are only to willing to give advice on what to do.

[Box13]

As the title says;

How good is a fully modified Techy 12xx, with say new PSU, MN Bearing, ETP platter, Isonoe Feet, new arm (Jelco 750D or Origin Live Silver or Funk Firm)…

compared to say:

Linn LP12

JR Transrotor ZET-1

Rega RP8 with Apheta cartridge

VPI Classic

Michell GyroDeck

Michell Orbe SE

Avid Diva

ProJect RPM-10.1

:scratch:

ALL of these TT obove will cost about the same as a fully modified Technics deck.

My upgrades so far has been relatively low cost (KAB Fluid Damper, Mains PSU, Achromat 1200, Isonoe). The three next upgrades will be high cost upgrades:
- Mike New Bearing.
- Mike New ETP platter
- Origin Live Silver/ Jelco 750D tonearm/ FX arm

I was hoping that someone that has heard or own a fully upgraded 12xx, and compared it to or upgraded it to another high end TT could share som input. Hopefully compared it to one of the above.

Here is a picture of the German made JR Trans Rotor ZET-1::eyebrows:

Depends what music you listen to really. All are good decks in their own way, although I would avoid direct drive.
Best in terms of value for money, is the rega, especially if you listen to rock music, it really rocks.

[aniki]

I would avoid direct drive.

:popcorn:

[walpurgis]

I would avoid direct drive.

:eek:

[Gordon Steadman]

:eek:

He's come to the right place:lol:

[Tarzan]

:popcorn:

That is blasphemous that is.:popcorn:

[ChrisKemp]

I cannot belive how good my Technics has become after I got the Mike New ETP Platter:eyebrows:

If the deck is of high quality, I realise now that even a budget MM cartridge like the AT-120E/b will sound:stalks:


http://youtu.be/RnJQBGhrHAQ

[RobbieGong]

I cannot belive how good my Technics has become after I got the Mike New ETP Platter:eyebrows:

If the deck is of high quality, I realise now that even a budget MM cartridge like the AT-120E/b will sound:stalks:


http://youtu.be/RnJQBGhrHAQ

Hi Chris, believe it ! The ETP was the icing on the cake for me, just excellent and brought everything together :)

[Audio Al]

Welcome to the MNETP Club ;)

[Mike_New]

Don't tell everyone Chris or else they will all want one.

[Marco]

Sounds fantastic, Chris! Glad it worked out well and that you've benefited from my advice... Told ya, you'd lurve it! :eyebrows:

I completely agree with Rob, in that the ETP platter just 'brings everything together'. Thus done, the Techy 'grows up' and veritably enters the high-end turntable arena. Enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Love those amps!

[allthingsanalogue]

Thank you very much, Marco:) I will post pictures and a little review once I get it:cool:

Hi Chris

How much did you sell your Oyaide for so I can get an idea how much to sell mine for?

What ETP did you order exactly? It sounds superb even on the YT video!

Andrew

[Mike_New]

Hi Andrew,
If you are seriously considering doing the same as Chris.
Then I would be happy to accept a payment deposit of $350.00 against the delivery of my ETP Platter.
This way I will machine it to your requirements and it will be ready for immediate delivery when you have
sold your Oyaide mat. This also makes the payment easier on the budget!!

[ChrisKemp]

Just got home from lovely Crete and will enjoy some more music tonight:cool:

Should I get the 3 mm Techncs mat and what can I expect if I put a rubber mat on it. A friend of mine bought a Auditorium A23 mat for his Rega P9 and is very happy compared to a Rega felt mat he used to have... Or shall I just forget about mats and enjoy the ETP as is? I don't want to spend alot of money triying mats all over again. I would rather spend that money on the bearing base plate.

[Audio Al]

I use the Origin live mat on my ETP platter , not convinced that a LP directly on the ETP is a good idea , also you will be increasing the height of the platter with a thick mat and may get VTA problems :)

[allthingsanalogue]

Just got home from lovely Crete and will enjoy some more music tonight:cool:

Should I get the 3 mm Techncs mat and what can I expect if I put a rubber mat on it. A friend of mine bought a Auditorium A23 mat for his Rega P9 and is very happy compared to a Rega felt mat he used to have... Or shall I just forget about mats and enjoy the ETP as is? I don't want to spend alot of money triying mats all over again. I would rather spend that money on the bearing base plate.

I wouldn't get the Technics Rubber mat, it sounds rubbish on any platter IMHO. Many TT's have a vinyl/plastic platter etc. and are meant to have the Lp directly on the platter. If you get a mat what's the point of a label recess on the ETP?

ATB

Andreww

[aniki]

I wouldn't get the Technics Rubber mat, it sounds rubbish on any platter IMHO.

I agree with this. I found rubber mats really counteract the benefits of upgrades elsewhere!
-
During my testing I found that although placing the record directly on the platter was sonically superior to most mats, I actually got ultimate satisfaction from using the Nagaoka crystal mat as recommended by Marco.
The Nagaoka mat is incredible on the standard platter but combined with the ETP you still clearly hear the benefits of both products.
This does bump up the VTA quite a lot though as the Nagaoka is 6mm.
-
Once I've ironed out one little niggle I have no plans to add anything more to my Techy now. Or any of my system for that matter!

[ChrisKemp]

I must say that my music after getting the ETP is more natural than with the original platter. It is hard to explain but if you've got the platter you know what I'm talking about:)

I am considering the Nagaoka crystal mat...


https://youtu.be/Cd12_MbjQf8

[ChrisKemp]

As great as my Technics SL1210M5G was, my Rega RP10 with the Lyra Delos is in another league:eyebrows: But, the time I had with the Technics sure was fun...

[keiron99]

As great as my Technics SL1210M5G was, my Rega RP10 with the Lyra Delos is in another league:eyebrows: But, the time I had with the Technics sure was fun...

Should be, for the price of a small family car!

[allthingsanalogue]

As great as my Technics SL1210M5G was, my Rega RP10 with the Lyra Delos is in another league:eyebrows: But, the time I had with the Technics sure was fun...

Glad you're enjoying the RP10 with the Delos, I bought an LP12, also with a Delos. It's a fantastic cartridge isn't it!

[nthall]

I think the biggest plus of 1200/1210s are the availability of new and used parts. They sold a ton of them.

Even a moderately modded one will outperform the speakers, and amplification in a modest system. I think they are perfect for someone just getting into the hobby. It's a table that can be modified and tailored to work with just about any combination of components, or speakers.

A TD-124 or 301 can do the same thing, but come with a steeper cost of admission.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[ChrisKemp]

Glad you're enjoying the RP10 with the Delos, I bought an LP12, also with a Delos. It's a fantastic cartridge isn't it!

Congrats on the LP12! Yes the Lyra Delos is one heck of a cartridge! So dynamic and musical. The RP10 is also a fantastic deck, and a significant upgrade from my SL1210M5G w/ Isokinetik Silver Melody arm, Isonoe feet, Mike New Bearing, ETP Platter and MCRU PSU. I did not even hope to think that the Rega RP10 would be that much better; and the 1210M5G I had was a fantastic deck.

[DSJR]

Both the techie and RP10 should have totally opposite sonic priorities I think. neither are *wrong* as the vinyl itself will dictate the ultimate standard ime, but the fact they give different presentations tonally doesn't surprise me at all. A pal had a lengthy dem on an RP10 (Apheta?) recently and didn't like it as the sound was too lean for him. I suspect a properly sorted techie would have more 'pace' and 'drive' but maybe the bass will be reproduced in a different manner (I'm trying to be careful and respectful here) depending on siting, which I feel is important on all these in-suspended decks.

A shame the Hyperspace and Dias are so waf-unfriendly (I'd have included the TW Raven, but I think it's all but tripled in UK price in the last ten years). It's my opinion they sound better than 'all of 'em...' especially when a Decca Gold or above is fitted - cough... :D

[hiwattnick]

I also believe that the modding / upgrading of a Technics 1200 can be a fun journey in itself, which can be very rewarding in itself. I have been slowly upgrading my Technics SL1200 M3D for years now. Some upgrades & mods are more obvious than others. Some upgrades seem to partner up too. Part of the fun is the ride there. At least it is to me.

[drrd]

Trouble with mods is that often these parts come from small scale manufacturers with rather high prices for what you actually get. Small companies however do react quicker (or come and go) meaning you get to tweak a good design from a large manufacturer who isnt going to update their product for years.

WRT OP question, if the comparison high end TT happens to be a 1200G/GAE then in my experience the modded 1210 is now well beaten. All the tweaks are just no match for what Technics has done in ground-up re-engineering the motor system.

[Marco]

WRT OP question, if the comparison high end TT happens to be a 1200G/GAE then in my experience the modded 1210 is now well beaten. All the tweaks are just no match for what Technics has done in ground-up re-engineering the motor system.

Hi Russell,

Interesting... Can I ask which modded 1210s you've heard, and if they were demo'd in the same system as the 1200G/GAE, in order for a meaningful comparison to have been conducted?

Although I haven't tried it yet, I'd expect my own modded 1210 to comfortably compete with the new Technics. Indeed, if anyone's got one and fancies a wee bake-off, let me know! :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Trouble with mods is that often these parts come from small scale manufacturers with rather high prices for what you actually get. Small companies however do react quicker (or come and go) meaning you get to tweak a good design from a large manufacturer who isnt going to update their product for years.

WRT OP question, if the comparison high end TT happens to be a 1200G/GAE then in my experience the modded 1210 is now well beaten. All the tweaks are just no match for what Technics has done in ground-up re-engineering the motor system.
Hi Russell, have you got the G model then or are you saying you've had extensive listening?

[drrd]

I picked up a 1200G in April this year so had plenty of time to compare with my 7 years owned and modded 1210. To be honest though it was obvious from day 1 that the new deck is an all round better design. Since then I've just enjoyed it and not really given a thought to comparison with the 1210.

I have had experience with 1210s going back about 27 years so I have some appreciation of what they sound like stock and also with swapped arms, bearing, psu and mats. Havent heard a 1210 with an aftermarket platter though.

I've kept the SME V I had on my old 1210 and put it in the 1200G so I'm not against modding :) I just think none of the mods really addressed the issues that Technics themselves have addressed in redesigning the motor system. The 1200G sounds simply more stable and sorted. Only my opinion but I would recommend people hear one before investing heavily in a 1210 these days, especially as 1210s cost so much now.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Russell,

Interesting... Can I ask which modded 1210s you've heard, and if they were demo'd in the same system as the 1200G/GAE, in order for a meaningful comparison to have been conducted?

Although I haven't tried it yet, I'd expect my own modded 1210 to comfortably compete with the new Technics. Indeed, if anyone's got one and fancies a wee bake-off, let me know! :cool:

Marco.

Maybe soon ;)

[Marco]

Maybe soon ;)

Look forward to it, then! :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

I picked up a 1200G in April this year so had plenty of time to compare with my 7 years owned and modded 1210. To be honest though it was obvious from day 1 that the new deck is an all round better design. Since then I've just enjoyed it and not really given a thought to comparison with the 1210.

I have had experience with 1210s going back about 27 years so I have some appreciation of what they sound like stock and also with swapped arms, bearing, psu and mats. Havent heard a 1210 with an aftermarket platter though.

I've kept the SME V I had on my old 1210 and put it in the 1200G so I'm not against modding :) I just think none of the mods really addressed the issues that Technics themselves have addressed in redesigning the motor system. The 1200G sounds simply more stable and sorted. Only my opinion but I would recommend people hear one before investing heavily in a 1210 these days, especially as 1210s cost so much now.

My 1210 mk2 is modded but compared to most, it's very much low cost with perhaps a lower or more moderate objective you might say, a technics lite.
The deck with four mods, bearing, psu,platter mods and feet cost about £900 which looking back I'm glad I did it when I did because the same mods are no longer available and the alternatives available are considerably more expensive.
Add the sme 309 for £950 which has now doubled in price and I do feel a little lucky to buy these at the right time, but I agree if I was starting out now it makes absolute sense to just get the G model as a starting point because you can choose a different arm and do minor tweaks, probably all that's needed.

[Marco]

I picked up a 1200G in April this year so had plenty of time to compare with my 7 years owned and modded 1210. To be honest though it was obvious from day 1 that the new deck is an all round better design. Since then I've just enjoyed it and not really given a thought to comparison with the 1210.


Fair enough :)


I have had experience with 1210s going back about 27 years so I have some appreciation of what they sound like stock and also with swapped arms, bearing, psu and mats. Havent heard a 1210 with an aftermarket platter though.


The likes of an MN ETP platter (or similar quality aftermarket design) does improve matters considerably, fundamentally addressing the rather poor quality (and highly resonant) stock platter.

The other thing that in my experience massively improves the 1210, is the Paul Hynes regulation modules (regulating key parts of the circuit), used in conjunction with his superb SR7 PSU. When I fitted those modules, it took my T/T to an entirely another level, sonically, thus enabling it to compete with some of the best out there.

That (and the effect of fitting a superior platter) is something you should really hear, Russell, as I'm confident it would make you re-evaluate what the 1210 (in its earlier guise) is truly capable of.


I've kept the SME V I had on my old 1210 and put it in the 1200G so I'm not against modding :) I just think none of the mods really addressed the issues that Technics themselves have addressed in redesigning the motor system. The 1200G sounds simply more stable and sorted. Only my opinion but I would recommend people hear one before investing heavily in a 1210 these days, especially as 1210s cost so much now.

Without doubt, that's good advice, and I'm all for the existence of a successful 'complete package' that simply works well, straight from the box, without the need for any faffing about. I do hear you about the motor system, which intrigues me.

In that respect, I wonder if all the mods I've carried out to my 1210 (MN bearing, platter and Paul Hynes stuff) could be transferred to the 1200G?

Because if I heard one, and considered that the motor was superior (even if my modded 1210 outperformed it with its 'inferior' one), I'd simply buy a 1200G, and then fit all the existing mods to it, as potentially I could end up having the best of both worlds! :cool:

Marco.

[CageyH]

:worthless:

This thread is worthless without a bake-off!

I would be interested to hear the results of a comparison....

[Marco]

Lol - I'm sure one will take place in due course :)

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

What are the 'issues' Technics have addressed with the new 1200G ?

I'm curious as a number of the previous posts have made reference to that and I was always under the impression that the 12XX's main strength / quality was/is its motor system :scratch:

I can understand a change of design approach as is generally the case with 'new models / versions' of most things, towards 'improvement' or refinement of how something works which is different to 'issues' ?.....

[Marco]

Yup, claimed improvements in the new motor aside, there are no 'issues' I can hear with the motor unit in my own 1210. The sound is rock-solid and stable, at all times, with no audible 'cogging effect' (as some have claimed with the 1200/1210), rumble or wow and flutter, in any way whatsoever.

The quality of the motor unit is indeed the main strength of the Technics, so it would interesting to hear what the new motor unit brings to the party, sonically. The other thing with modded Techies, of any description, is the question of synergy [and indeed *genuinely achieving* it]....

With all the various mods available, from mats to bearings and PSUs, etc, from various manufacturers, the best sounding modded Techies will always be those where genuine synergy has been achieved, in terms not only of bringing the effect of all the mods together, symbiotically, as a musical whole, but crucially also those of the partnering tonearm and cartridge.

Essentially therefore, it's very easy to get it wrong, in some cases, despite having spent a fortune on mods, and then blame everything else for that, rather than yourself for simply having chosen the wrong combination of bits...

I've heard many rather disappointing sounding modded 1200s and 1210s, fitted with upgraded bearings, platters and PSUs, simply because the owner has selected the wrong tonearm and/or cartridge, whose sonic signature simply doesn't suit that of the T/T itself, or the mods which have been applied to it [a good example of this is Rega, or Rega-derived arms and magnesium-made SMEs, which IME aren't a good match], so the net effect ends up being somewhat musically disjointed, and sonically substandard.

In that respect, it takes both a good pair of ears and a fundamental understanding of what you're trying to achieve, from modding a 1200/1210, to finally arrive at something that's genuinely capable of delivering musical synergy:cool:

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

Yup, claimed improvements in the new motor aside, there are no 'issues' I can hear with the motor unit in my own 1210. The sound is rock-solid and stable, at all times, with no audible 'cogging effect' (as some have claimed with the 1200/1210), rumble or wow and flutter, in any way whatsoever.

The quality of the motor unit is indeed the main strength of the Technics, so it would interesting to hear what the new motor unit brings to the party, sonically. The other thing with modded Techies, of any description, is the question of synergy [and *genuinely achieving* it]....

With all the various mods available, from mats to bearings and PSUs, etc, from various manufacturers, the best sounding modded Techies will always be those where genuine synergy has been achieved, in terms not only of bringing the effect of all the mods together, symbiotically, as a musical whole, but crucially also those of the partnering tonearm and cartridge.

I've heard many rather disappointing sounding modded 1200s and 1210s, fitted with upgraded bearings, platters and PSUs, simply because the owner has fitted the wrong tonearm and/or cartridge, whose sonic signature simply doesn't suit that of the T/T itself, or the mods which have been applied to it.

In that respect, it takes both a good pair of ears and a fundamental understanding of what you're trying to achieve, from modding a 1200/1210, to finally arrive at something that's genuinely capable of delivering musical synergy:cool:

Marco.

Agree on all counts Marco. Hence like yourself I've upgraded my Techie with an understanding of what I'm actually doing and what I'm aiming to achieve rather than just 'upgrade' per se

I've never in all the years I've been into hifi read about cogging 'issues relating to the 12XX, no owner sayin ' Oh the cogging problem i'm experiencing with my SL12XX !' :) as I say, never seen or heard of that.

We know it's been spouted in the past by some of the agenda driven belt drive brigade / manufacturers towards dd's in general without any real facts.

The 12XX figures for distortion / wow and flutter etc are well documented as excellent.

This wiki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_SL-1200 bares very positive insight about the 12XX's motor - see comments under 'Design Strengths' towards bottom page.

Another thing I found really interesting is comments under 'Rebirth' SL1200G.
*Note that it says .... complete with a microprocessor and rotary positing sensors to eliminate cogging,

Now, before the belt drive contingent jump up and and down with excitement, conveniently ignoring the well known high praise figures and positives of the 12XX's motor system.....

It's clear to me that Technics Panasonic designed the 12XX in a way that deals with any potential for cogging within the design hence it was never an issue.

All the above comment regarding the new 1200G shows us is that the new design eliminates any potential, not that there's an issue as such ;)

[chris@panteg]

Good points made and I personally feel that what I have achieved with my 1210 has been worthwhile, I have to admit there was a point where I felt it wasn't performing right? But that was down to poor set up on my part.

How good is my deck I can't really say but I'm happy with what I'm hearing and being totally honest with myself then yeah I'm in a good place with it at the moment.

But regarding the new G and GR models, all the reviews I've seen and read state a fundamental improvement on any previous model as stock standard as it should be given the price difference, you would expect it to be! But the bottom line is if that is the case then it's a question of whether the mods fitted to the older deck at around the same price difference bring it up to or better or falling short of the new G model? That's what we need to know.

Only a bake off can determine that, it must be worth doing surely.

[vs_jk]

I bought my Technics SL1210Mk2 brand new many years ago when they could be purchased for around $450. It’s been a fantastic turntable and I bought it on the advice that it can be upgraded as funds allow. So I’ve done exactly that with it. My first mod was putting heat shrink on the tonearm which yielded very noticeable sonic improvements. Next I bought the Resomat acrylic platter which also was a significant upgrade. Then came the IanMac bearing and KAB thrust plate wax which elevated the sound further. And most recently I’ve gotten the KAB damper added to my turntable which also was a significant improvement. I love the looks of my turntable but also like how classic turntables have wooden plinths so I got a wood enclosure for my Technics and that really added to the aesthetic. All in, I’ve got around $850 in my turntable. I’m very satisfied with the sound and have felt that I would need to spend multiples of this amount to get an improvement.

How much of an improvement is something that has been a curiosity for me. And therefore, I’ve always wondered how my setup would compare to a high end turntable. It just so happens that a friend of mine owns a gorgeous belt drive Micro Seiki BL-91 turntable in immaculate condition. We also happen to have the same phono stage in the iFi iPhono. He has a DL103 and I have an aluminum bodied DL103R so not an exact match but relatively close. I requested that I be able to do a comparison using his setup. So first, I listened to a couple very familiar and high quality recordings on my turntable using my headphone amp (Little Dot MK3 with Amperex bugle boy tubes) and Sennheiser HD580 headphones:

Duke Ellington: Blues in Orbit
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition - Telarc

Then I went over to my friend’s house with the above two albums and my headphone amp and headphones. We hooked up the same setup on his turntable and listened. At first I was relieved that his high end turntable didn’t blow mine out of the water. However, as I listened more closely, I had to admit the soundstage was wider and a little more holographic and transparent. Also, the sound seemed to have an ease to it and float on a cloud with the Micro. While my Technics produces a sound more grounded. Both turntables easily reproduce details in the sonics.

I will say that Technics fans seem to blow things out of proportion about belt drives having pitch variations. My friend’s Micro does not have any electronic speed control and yet it was rock solid like my Technics. If there were any pitch variations, then they were so minute that they weren’t noticeable.

So, it was the first time I’ve ever been able to compare my Technics to a classic top end turntable. The Micro certainly blows my humble Technics out of the water when it comes to aesthetics! And I have to admit that the Micro was a little better/different in the sound department. But that is to be expected considering it has an SME arm that cost more than my entire turntable when it was new and unmodified! At the same time, the Technics holding its own against such a top range classic turntable is a testament to it’s quality and upgradeability for very reasonable costs. Knowing this, I feel satisfied in my Technics and that the money spent on the mods I’ve done so far were very worthwhile.

[CageyH]

It’s nice to know how it compares.

I would imagine that if you change the arm, the difference will be even smaller.

[guardofmagog]

Hi Vishal,

Another worthwhile upgrade you can do is to use the KAB PSU. It is not that expensive but the improvement is huge. Once installed you can even go back to the original internal PSU and you'll notice a major difference. You will get greater soundstage and dynamics. If you think that your SL1200 was already a close match to the Micro Seiki, then with the KAB PSU you may find it on par or even better.

Eric


I bought my Technics SL1210Mk2 brand new many years ago when they could be purchased for around $450. It’s been a fantastic turntable and I bought it on the advice that it can be upgraded as funds allow. So I’ve done exactly that with it. My first mod was putting heat shrink on the tonearm which yielded very noticeable sonic improvements. Next I bought the Resomat acrylic platter which also was a significant upgrade. Then came the IanMac bearing and KAB thrust plate wax which elevated the sound further. And most recently I’ve gotten the KAB damper added to my turntable which also was a significant improvement. I love the looks of my turntable but also like how classic turntables have wooden plinths so I got a wood enclosure for my Technics and that really added to the aesthetic. All in, I’ve got around $850 in my turntable. I’m very satisfied with the sound and have felt that I would need to spend multiples of this amount to get an improvement.

How much of an improvement is something that has been a curiosity for me. And therefore, I’ve always wondered how my setup would compare to a high end turntable. It just so happens that a friend of mine owns a gorgeous belt drive Micro Seiki BL-91 turntable in immaculate condition. We also happen to have the same phono stage in the iFi iPhono. He has a DL103 and I have an aluminum bodied DL103R so not an exact match but relatively close. I requested that I be able to do a comparison using his setup. So first, I listened to a couple very familiar and high quality recordings on my turntable using my headphone amp (Little Dot MK3 with Amperex bugle boy tubes) and Sennheiser HD580 headphones:

Duke Ellington: Blues in Orbit
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition - Telarc

Then I went over to my friend’s house with the above two albums and my headphone amp and headphones. We hooked up the same setup on his turntable and listened. At first I was relieved that his high end turntable didn’t blow mine out of the water. However, as I listened more closely, I had to admit the soundstage was wider and a little more holographic and transparent. Also, the sound seemed to have an ease to it and float on a cloud with the Micro. While my Technics produces a sound more grounded. Both turntables easily reproduce details in the sonics.

I will say that Technics fans seem to blow things out of proportion about belt drives having pitch variations. My friend’s Micro does not have any electronic speed control and yet it was rock solid like my Technics. If there were any pitch variations, then they were so minute that they weren’t noticeable.

So, it was the first time I’ve ever been able to compare my Technics to a classic top end turntable. The Micro certainly blows my humble Technics out of the water when it comes to aesthetics! And I have to admit that the Micro was a little better/different in the sound department. But that is to be expected considering it has an SME arm that cost more than my entire turntable when it was new and unmodified! At the same time, the Technics holding its own against such a top range classic turntable is a testament to it’s quality and upgradeability for very reasonable costs. Knowing this, I feel satisfied in my Technics and that the money spent on the mods I’ve done so far were very worthwhile.

[vs_jk]

Thank you for that suggestion, Eric. It's good to hear from others who have had positive results from the PSU upgrade.

Recently, I got a DL103R potted in an aluminum body and retipped with sapphire cantilever and micro ridge stylus. This has elevated my system to a whole new level! But, I know that I'm not done upgrading my turntable and was wondering about what that ought to be. Now I know what it will be!

[guardofmagog]

Hi again Vishal,

There are many PSU out there for the SL1200 and which may be better than the KAB one but mostly all of them are more expansive. What I like about it is the strobe light disabler and that it upgrades the internal regulator. A few years back, there was no regulator upgrade and you had to buy the stroble light disabler as an option.

Eric.


Thank you for that suggestion, Eric. It's good to hear from others who have had positive results from the PSU upgrade.

Recently, I got a DL103R potted in an aluminum body and retipped with sapphire cantilever and micro ridge stylus. This has elevated my system to a whole new level! But, I know that I'm not done upgrading my turntable and was wondering about what that ought to be. Now I know what it will be!

[vs_jk]

One update on this. It turns out that my cartridge alignment was off this whole time on my turntable. I was just going off the included gauge with the Technics turntable. But then I found that when I tried to align it to any of the protractors for the Technics SL12xx turntables, it wasn't lining up. So I realigned my cartridge via the Technics Baerwald and have been impressed with the improvement in sound. It's as though the sound has been freed up a bit and no more distortions as the record comes to an end. I wonder how the sound would compare now that I have it setup properly!


I bought my Technics SL1210Mk2 brand new many years ago when they could be purchased for around $450. It’s been a fantastic turntable and I bought it on the advice that it can be upgraded as funds allow. So I’ve done exactly that with it. My first mod was putting heat shrink on the tonearm which yielded very noticeable sonic improvements. Next I bought the Resomat acrylic platter which also was a significant upgrade. Then came the IanMac bearing and KAB thrust plate wax which elevated the sound further. And most recently I’ve gotten the KAB damper added to my turntable which also was a significant improvement. I love the looks of my turntable but also like how classic turntables have wooden plinths so I got a wood enclosure for my Technics and that really added to the aesthetic. All in, I’ve got around $850 in my turntable. I’m very satisfied with the sound and have felt that I would need to spend multiples of this amount to get an improvement.

How much of an improvement is something that has been a curiosity for me. And therefore, I’ve always wondered how my setup would compare to a high end turntable. It just so happens that a friend of mine owns a gorgeous belt drive Micro Seiki BL-91 turntable in immaculate condition. We also happen to have the same phono stage in the iFi iPhono. He has a DL103 and I have an aluminum bodied DL103R so not an exact match but relatively close. I requested that I be able to do a comparison using his setup. So first, I listened to a couple very familiar and high quality recordings on my turntable using my headphone amp (Little Dot MK3 with Amperex bugle boy tubes) and Sennheiser HD580 headphones:

Duke Ellington: Blues in Orbit
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition - Telarc

Then I went over to my friend’s house with the above two albums and my headphone amp and headphones. We hooked up the same setup on his turntable and listened. At first I was relieved that his high end turntable didn’t blow mine out of the water. However, as I listened more closely, I had to admit the soundstage was wider and a little more holographic and transparent. Also, the sound seemed to have an ease to it and float on a cloud with the Micro. While my Technics produces a sound more grounded. Both turntables easily reproduce details in the sonics.

I will say that Technics fans seem to blow things out of proportion about belt drives having pitch variations. My friend’s Micro does not have any electronic speed control and yet it was rock solid like my Technics. If there were any pitch variations, then they were so minute that they weren’t noticeable.

So, it was the first time I’ve ever been able to compare my Technics to a classic top end turntable. The Micro certainly blows my humble Technics out of the water when it comes to aesthetics! And I have to admit that the Micro was a little better/different in the sound department. But that is to be expected considering it has an SME arm that cost more than my entire turntable when it was new and unmodified! At the same time, the Technics holding its own against such a top range classic turntable is a testament to it’s quality and upgradeability for very reasonable costs. Knowing this, I feel satisfied in my Technics and that the money spent on the mods I’ve done so far were very worthwhile.

[ChrisKemp]

I can highly recommend the KAB PSU.

I’m now back with an almost Brand new/ unused 1210M5G originally from KAB with the KAB PSU. 2-3 years ago I had a fully upgraded M5G. I sold it and bought a Rega RP10. I sold the RP10 and now how the two turntables in my signature below:) I never should have sold my M5G. But now I’m happy again! I have a glass platter on top and a fluid damper. This time I will keep the original arm, because now I now How good it is!

It’s great to be back:)

[fletchdirect]

Hi Chris, I remember seeing some of your videos on youtube with the old Mk5G. Any chance of some needledrops with the audio connected to the PC direct, vs via a mic?; Would love to hear how your rig sounds!!

[RobbieGong]

I can highly recommend the KAB PSU.

I’m now back with an almost Brand new/ unused 1210M5G originally from KAB with the KAB PSU. 2-3 years ago I had a fully upgraded M5G. I sold it and bought a Rega RP10. I sold the RP10 and now how the two turntables in my signature below:) I never should have sold my M5G. But now I’m happy again! I have a glass platter on top and a fluid damper. This time I will keep the original arm, because now I now How good it is!

It’s great to be back:)


Exactly, the MK5g is a lovely deck, I loved mine.

The tonearm as you say is very good, too often people swap it out, then you lose the Techie on the fly vta, which is a peach.

There is nothing like being able to literally dial in your cart the way you can with the Techie otf vta system. Priceless, particularly if you're using carts with the more sophisticated stylus profiles, which I've found to be fussy / more dependent in terms of attaining optimum performance, about set-up and then, in particular vta, to nail the sweet-spot...

[CageyH]

Exactly, the MK5g is a lovely deck, I loved mine.

The tonearm as you say is very good, too often people swap it out, then you lose the Techie on the fly vta, which is a peach.

There is nothing like being able to literally dial in your cart the way you can with the Techie otf vta system. Priceless, particularly if you're using carts with the more sophisticated stylus profiles, which I've found to be fussy / more dependent in terms of attaining optimum performance, about set-up and then, in particular vta, to nail the sweet-spot...

That depends what you swap it out for. ;)

[RobbieGong]

That depends what you swap it out for. ;)

:) Of course Kevin, I've been there, the Micro Seiki MA-202 arm that replaced the stock arm on my previous MK5g, was lovely, re-wired etc.

They have on the fly vta as well, (as I wouldnt be without it, due to the types of carts I'm attracted to/use), but it wasnt a patch on the Technics vta system we know, in terms of ease of usability, micro accuracy and smoothness of dialling in. I've always said it is a peach of a thing, especially if you really need to utilise it. I actually dont think folk really really get how good an aid and tool it is, until they have that proper need to put it use, likely out of setting up one of the more sophisticated stylus profiles. Cant say it enough, hence i keep saying it :D

[SiT4]

I can highly recommend the KAB PSU.

I’m now back with an almost Brand new/ unused 1210M5G originally from KAB with the KAB PSU. 2-3 years ago I had a fully upgraded M5G. I sold it and bought a Rega RP10. I sold the RP10 and now how the two turntables in my signature below:) I never should have sold my M5G. But now I’m happy again! I have a glass platter on top and a fluid damper. This time I will keep the original arm, because now I now How good it is!

It’s great to be back:)

Chris can you tell me why you sold the RP10 an when back to the Techie, thats a big endorsement for it ! Also between the Techie and Rega P3 with upgrades which do you prefer or if its more a difference in sound can you explain it between the decks ? Cheers Si