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DaveK
27-06-2009, 12:38
Not sure whether this post belongs here or with the 'Farewell FM' thread in another place (as they say in parliament :) ), but I'm sure one of our ever vigilant monitors will re-site it if they think it appropriate :) .
I am unfortunate enough to live in an area which suffers from CRAP fm reception so I've never really been all that enthusiastic about it. Then Sky digital came along and listening to radio became a viable option again.
Today (now, as I post) I am listening to Classic FM (??) on channel 0106 on my Sky box, through Stan's 7520 and Marantz PM6010OSE amp, all connected by some decent co-ax cables (ex Peter Stockwell) and am really enjoying the experience. It's the best radio quality I've ever heard ! Not sure how much of the improvement is due to which bit of the kit involved, and frankly I don't care at the moment, just wallowing in the sound and very little of it is music that I would normally choose to listen to.
Anyway, to the question: -
Why are some fellow members getting so upset about the forthcoming demise of FM broadcasts when repacing it with something better, IMHO, is so easy and so relatively unexpensive - any elements of Ludditeism ? ...... or am I missing something (not for the first time ! :) ).

Barry
27-06-2009, 12:52
Not sure whether this post belongs here or with the 'Farewell FM' thread in another place (as they say in parliament :) ), but I'm sure one of our ever vigilant monitors will re-site it if they think it appropriate :) .
I am unfortunate enough to live in an area which suffers from CRAP fm reception so I've never really been all that enthusiastic about it. Then Sky digital came along and listening to radio became a viable option again.
Today (now, as I post) I am listening to Classic FM (??) on channel 0106 on my Sky box, through Stan's 7520 and Marantz PM6010OSE amp, all connected by some decent co-ax cables (ex Peter Stockwell) and am really enjoying the experience. It's the best radio quality I've ever heard ! Not sure how much of the improvement is due to which bit of the kit involved, and frankly I don't care at the moment, just wallowing in the sound and very little of it is music that I would normally choose to listen to.
Anyway, to the question: -
Why are some fellow members getting so upset about the forthcoming demise of FM broadcasts when repacing it with something better, IMHO, is so easy and so relatively unexpensive - any elements of Ludditeism ? ...... or am I missing something (not for the first time ! :) ).

Oh Dave you really are opening a can of worms - look out for a forthcoming onslaught of postings by we Luddites!

I'm not able to give you a full reply at the moment, as I need to muster all my ammunition and arguments for the retention of FM, but I'm sure you won't have long to wait before someone comes along to start off a healthy debate. :eyebrows:

In the meantime, have a look at some of the links quoted in the 'Farewell FM' thread to see why an awful lot of people are very unhappy, if not downright angry with the proposed switch off (and they're not all 'audiophiles') :steam:.

Regards

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 13:09
You're missing something Dave.

DAB radio is not superior to the FM broadcast it will replace. That is one arguement against switch-off.

Then there is the arguement about power consumption - most existing analog radios use less power than their digital brethren.

There is also an element of not wanting to get rid of perfectly good equipment that works fine unless something gets turned off (ie FM radio transmission).

Me - I listen to radio digitally either from Sky, or more commonly via Squeezebox. Both units are plugged into a StanDac.

I have however signed the petition - the proposed FM switch off is ill considered IMHO.

Chris:)

DaveK
27-06-2009, 13:23
You're missing something Dave.

DAB radio is not superior to the FM broadcast it will replace. That is one arguement against switch-off. Not in my area it ain't :steam: and I do't think I'm alone - at least satellite/digital is more universally available.

Then there is the arguement about power consumption - most existing analog radios use less power than their digital brethren. Not sure this argument stands up, particularly in this forum :scratch: - most people's radio comes out of a single box (one electrical input) - how many boxes/electrical inputs are there between your FM source and your speakers? ;)

There is also an element of not wanting to get rid of perfectly good equipment that works fine unless something gets turned off (ie FM radio transmission). They tell me it's called progress - people who resist progress get called strange names ;)

Me - I listen to radio digitally either from Sky, or more commonly via Squeezebox. Both units are plugged into a StanDac.

I have however signed the petition - the proposed FM switch off is ill considered IMHO.

Chris:)

Your move next :lolsign:
Cheers,

DaveK
27-06-2009, 13:33
Hi Barry,


Oh Dave you really are opening a can of worms - look out for a forthcoming onslaught of postings by we Luddites!

I'm not able to give you a full reply at the moment, as I need to muster all my ammunition (ammunition !? - and all I did was ask a perfectly innocent :) question) and arguments for the retention of FM, but I'm sure you won't have long to wait before someone comes along to start off a healthy debate. :eyebrows: I just love a healthy debate, even on the very rare ocassions when I might have lost :lolsign:

In the meantime, have a look at some of the links quoted in the 'Farewell FM' thread to see why an awful lot of people are very unhappy, if not downright angry with the proposed switch off (and they're not all 'audiophiles') :steam:.

Regards

Cheers,

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 13:40
Your move next :lolsign:
Cheers,

No argument, just

:ner::ner::ner::ner::ner:

Chris:lolsign:

Spectral Morn
27-06-2009, 16:08
Not sure whether this post belongs here or with the 'Farewell FM' thread in another place (as they say in parliament :) ), but I'm sure one of our ever vigilant monitors will re-site it if they think it appropriate :) .

No heres fine as far as I am concerned, as the topic is Digital radio focussed.


I am unfortunate enough to live in an area which suffers from CRAP fm reception so I've never really been all that enthusiastic about it. Then Sky digital came along and listening to radio became a viable option again.

Sorry to hear that, however there are areas of the UK that can not receive free view or Sky. Those who live in very mountainous areas, in the shadow of hills, surrounded by forest or trees etc. So digital is not universal this way but might be if broadband connection is sorted out. The question is will it in time...I would say not and for some never as it just would cost to much.


Today (now, as I post) I am listening to Classic FM (??) on channel 0106 on my Sky box, through Stan's 7520 and Marantz PM6010OSE amp, all connected by some decent co-ax cables (ex Peter Stockwell) and am really enjoying the experience. It's the best radio quality I've ever heard ! Not sure how much of the improvement is due to which bit of the kit involved, and frankly I don't care at the moment, just wallowing in the sound and very little of it is music that I would normally choose to listen to.

I can imagine in isolation you would feel this way. However if you were to be able to compare FM to your set up, assuming the FM radio is a good one and the aerial was right. I feel you might see things differently. However with your current address this isn't going to happen.


Anyway, to the question: -
Why are some fellow members getting so upset about the forthcoming demise of FM broadcasts when replacing it with something better, IMHO, is so easy and so relatively unexpensive - any elements of Ludditeism ? ...... or am I missing something (not for the first time ! :) ).

That is the point entirely...cost is not the issue, it is the type and quality of data used by digital radio. I have done as you are now, using a high quality fibre optic cable feed from a Sky + box to a high-End Dac (in my case I have tried Musical Fidelity Tri-vista 21, Micromega Data, MSB Link Dac, Digital input on my Moon Andromeda). I have also tried a free view box Noikia with a co-ax lead too, and on all occasions the sound was IMHO way behind that of a good FM tuner in my case firstly a Revox 260-s and then my various Leak FM tuners. Now the Stan Dac is very good but not as good IMHO as some of the DACs I use. So I don't think that is a factor in this, but I could be wrong not having got the chance to listen to/review a 7520 DAC, it is a bit of an unknown quantity.

I find DAB or other digital radio poor in sound quality terms, and that for me is two/thirds the problem the other third is being denied the ability to use perfectly good to excellent radios, and IMHO for no good reason other than the greed of the BBC and our current government. If the switch off was to make way for a vastly superior way of getting radio, then while I would be very sad about my non working radios, I could perhaps in time bring myself to move to the new radio set up. However as it will mean listening to DAB or sky etc and this is so poor in my opinion that I would give up on radio totally and find away to organize a mass dumping of non-working radios at parliament and the BBC as protest. in fact I think I might abandon the BBC and TV totally as well, and thus rob them of their licence fee money. Cutting my nose of perhaps but my hatred for what would have been done would push me into it.





Regards D S D L

DaveK
27-06-2009, 16:58
Hi Neil,
Thanks for the response and for the lack of use of the heavy artillery that I was lead to believe (and expected) that I would receive :) .
If good FM is really that much better than Sky digital radio it must be worth giving it a try. There is a Marantz ST4000 Tuner on eBay for not-a-lot at the moment (I have Marantz amp and CD player) which I would consider bidding for IF I thought that I could bring in a decent signal. Are there any aerials that could do the job better than others? I live in a bungalow, under the brow of a hill between me and the nearest FM booster transmitter and the last time I tried an aerial ( aluminium, 3-legged horizontal capital 'H' form ) it did improve things a bit but not enough to make listening a pleasure.
Any (polite) suggestions?
Cheers,

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 17:04
They tell me it's called progress - people who resist progress get called strange names

Don Preston:
Silence you fools, don't you believe in progress?

Bunk Gardner:
Take that progress and stick it under a rock.

Progress is only progressive if it allows an improvement. Otherwise, it's retrogressive.

My parents can recieve FM - but they can't get DAB, cable or satellite. They can only get 4 channels on terrestrial tv, & about 2 on digital tv - what should they do? Move house?

My house contains, perhaps 12 fm receiving devices. I've never heard DAB that sounded better than any of those. Should I have to replace all of them in order to receive an inferior service?

DaveK
27-06-2009, 17:09
Don Preston:
Silence you fools, don't you believe in progress?

Bunk Gardner:
Take that progress and stick it under a rock.

Progress is only progressive if it allows an improvement. Otherwise, it's retrogressive.

My parents can recieve FM - but they can't get DAB, cable or satellite. They can only get 4 channels on terrestrial tv, & about 2 on digital tv - what should they do? Move house?

My house contains, perhaps 12 fm receiving devices. I've never heard DAB that sounded better than any of those. Should I have to replace all of them in order to receive an inferior service?

OUCH !! :(

Spectral Morn
27-06-2009, 17:12
Hi Neil,
Thanks for the response and for the lack of use of the heavy artillery that I was lead to believe (and expected) that I would receive :) .
If good FM is really that much better than Sky digital radio it must be worth giving it a try. There is a Marantz ST4000 Tuner on eBay for not-a-lot at the moment (I have Marantz amp and CD player) which I would consider bidding for IF I thought that I could bring in a decent signal. Are there any aerials that could do the job better than others? I live in a bungalow, under the brow of a hill between me and the nearest FM booster transmitter and the last time I tried an aerial ( aluminium, 3-legged horizontal capital 'H' form ) it did improve things a bit but not enough to make listening a pleasure.
Any (polite) suggestions?
Cheers,

Hi Dave

Ummmm...not sure about the Marantz ST4000...it was a fairly cheap entry level radio and as such would probably not get you the jump we are talking about. I have not compared a St4000 to what you have. It might be a little bit better and there again maybe not much. Your best bet with an aerial is yellow pages and look for someone who should be familiar with your local area. If he hasn't got signal strength test gear and holds his wet finger in the air hes not a proper aerial guy. You will need something good on a pole more than likely. I would suggest looking for a Leak FM tuner, a model Stereo. You can get these for about the £50 to £100 mark...I would pay no more than that. A nice mk2 Mono (about £100) needs a decoder for stereo but actually sound great in mono. You use a single rca adapter cable which splits in two so the mono gets split in two...not stereo but you will be surprised how good it sounds, I know I was! A model Stereo will be £50 to £80 depending on condition. There are loopers looking for more than these prices walk on by...:mental: Wait and one will turn up. Try phoning Retro Reproductions in Edinburgh he might have one.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 17:49
OUCH !! :(

Apologies, Dave,
It wasn't supposed to jab that much - I was being a little unexpressive, I think.

Neil I fear a Truffle might not be up to making the most of the signal Dave's situation can provide (though I do agree about them sounding great in mono).

I'd be looking for something a little more modern (though not much) - some of the early - mid seventies Sansui's, for example, can be had for peanuts, & will pull in a usable signal in some of the worst conditions imaginable.

For £15, Dave, you could give this a go:
http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1113

........& you'll get a guarantee - Dave who runs Green Home Electronics, is a member here & will treat you well, I'm sure.

Very low risk. This was a pretty cheap tuner in it's day, but I think it'll trounce the Marantz you've seen in all respects except matching the rest of your gear.

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 18:01
Re. aerials, you can try plugging your TV aerial into a tuner aerial socket, though this is not ideal, you can usually pull in something worth using in this way - (this can suffice until you become completely hooked on FM & get yourself a decent aerial!!).

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 18:17
Alternatively, you could try this which has had some recent coverage on AoS:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SONY-ST-70-FM-AM-TUNER_W0QQitemZ130314679089QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_A udioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Tuners?hash=item1e 575c3331&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1300%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A3%7C294%3A50

Hamish got one recently & liked it well enough (esp. at the price he paid).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2744&highlight=sony+tuner

Marco
27-06-2009, 18:48
I've yet to hear a bad 1970s Sony tuner. They seemed to have mastered the correct 'recipe'. To my ears, there's something 'right' about their sound that's hard to beat. My Sony ST-5055L is a joy to listen to and miles away from the tinny sounding cacophony of DAB.

I have no experience of Sky Digital used in terms of radio. But I HATE DAB with a passion, so it would have to be MASSIVELY better than that in terms of sound quality to even tempt me to try it.

I care not a jot about convenience/features/number of available stations, so that would be of zero importance to me in terms of judging which was best.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 19:04
I've yet to hear a bad 1970s Sony tuner. They seemed to have mastered the correct 'recipe'. To my ears, there's something 'right' about their sound that's hard to beat. My Sony ST-5055L is a joy to listen to and miles away from the tinny sounding cacophony of DAB.


I forgot you had a 5055, Marco. The 5066 that Green Home Dave is selling for £15 quid seems like an out & out bargain to me. Due to someone in the 'Model Number Designation Department' at Sony at the time being of a slightly contrary nature, your 55 is the bigger brother of the 66.

DaveK
27-06-2009, 19:32
Apologies, Dave,
It wasn't supposed to jab that much - I was being a little unexpressive, I think.
No problem and no apology required - if you can't take it you shouldn't give it. ;)
For £15, Dave, you could give this a go:
http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1113

........& you'll get a guarantee - Dave who runs Green Home Electronics, is a member here & will treat you well, I'm sure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alternatively, you could try this which has had some recent coverage on AoS:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SONY-ST-70-FM-...3A3%7C294%3A50

Very low risk. This was a pretty cheap tuner in it's day, but I think it'll trounce the Marantz you've seen in all respects except matching the rest of your gear.

Thanks for the pointers - had a look at them both - seems to go against the grain (or is it just me?) to pay about the same for shipping as for the goods themselves, but I'll give it some thought. There is also the unmentioned (until now) problem of available shelf space (or lack of) and the WAF. :steam:
Cheers,

Marco
27-06-2009, 19:36
Hi Chris,

If the '66 is anywhere near as good, it sounds to me like an unmitigated bargain not to be missed! Dave's place is full of bargains. He's very selective in what he stocks, and knows the right gear to buy in the first place.

1970s Sony tuners rock (if you can live with the retro looks) :smoking:

Marco.

DaveK
27-06-2009, 19:58
For £15, Dave, you could give this a go:
http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1113

........& you'll get a guarantee - Dave who runs Green Home Electronics, is a member here & will treat you well, I'm sure.



Hi again Chris,
Just had another look at the above link and found the one below - it's appeal looks (to me, at least) better in the sense that it is said to be good in areas of weak signal - any thoughts?
Cheers,

http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1353

Marco
27-06-2009, 20:03
Dave,

Those little Denons are good, but I doubt it'll sound as magical as the Sony :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 20:13
Hi again Chris,
Just had another look at the above link and found the one below - it's appeal looks (to me, at least) better in the sense that it is said to be good in areas of weak signal - any thoughts?
Cheers,

http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1353

I can't comment I'm afraid, Dave. Despite having a large number of tuners at my disposal now & even more in the past, I just don't know much about machines that don't have a big twirly knob & a proper dial - they all seem the same to me - got no soul! (Aesthetically & usually musically).

I think that model had a reasonable reputation as a budget tuner a few years back, but the Sony 5066 would probably sell for 10 times more than it if it were still being manufactured now.

The seventies really was the time when some fantastic tuners were being made & the Japanese really had it cracked.
Sadly, though the art now seems to be all but lost.

I'd be surprised if the Denon you linked to is much better than the Sony at pulling in a signal, & I bet I know which sounds better!

Labarum
27-06-2009, 20:33
O, I have said it all before.

1. The 192 Kb/s MP2 stream from my Virgin Cable box is at least as good as my Quad FM tuner when my Beresfod DAC is doing the work. (The same stream can be found on Sky)

2. 128 Kb/s MP3 or WMA stream off internet from my Squeezebox feeding the Beresford DAC is better than my Quad 77 Tuner.

3. The margin improves with the bitrate - I listen to one 320Kb/s MP3 stream, or when listening to stream about or above 100Kb/s coded in OGG or AAC+

The internet streams have been referenced elsewhere on this forum.

DaveK
27-06-2009, 20:52
To Chris and Marco,
I hear and understand what you say. Can I trouble either/both of you again to look at this below and let me have your thoughts please: -

http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1298

To Brian,
If I interpret your comments correctly (remember I'm a newbie numptie here :)), you are saying that FM ain't necessarily better than (Sky) digital if you play digital through the right bits of kit (I have a DAC7520 and was very impressed listening to Classic FM (chanel 0106) on Sky this afternoon through the 7520.
Cheers to all,

Labarum
27-06-2009, 21:05
To Brian . . . you are saying that FM ain't necessarily better than (Sky) digital if you play digital through the right bits of kit (I have a DAC7520 and was very impressed listening to Classic FM (chanel 0106) on Sky this afternoon through the 7520.


The MP2 stream found on the Sky Box, the Virgin Box and on Freeview I rate about the same as my Quad 77 FM Tuner (an expensive box), if you route the stream through a decent DAC (the Beresford counts)

Higher quality streams can be found on the internet, but again you have to get the stream cleanly to a decent DAC - and that is not so easy, especially with a Windows PC.

A £130 streaming device like a Squeezebox will sidestep the audio routines in a PC and deliver a bit perfect stream to the DAC. This 320 Kb/s stream coded MP3 is better than your Sky box

Bartók Rádió (Hungary)
http://212.92.28.75:2008/
MP3 at 320kbps

and so is this

AVRO Klassiek Beste NL
http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16
MP3 at 256

The OGG streams are even better

D-dur (Czech Republic)
http://www.rozhlas.cz/audio/download/ddur_maxogg.m3u
OGG at 224kbps

Vltava (Czech Republic)
http://radio.cesnet.cz/cgi-bin/cro3-256-ogg.pls
OGG at 224kbps

Devín (Slovakia)
http://live.slovakradio.sk:8000/Devin_256.ogg
OGG at 256kbps

BUT

you have to get them cleanly to your DAC - a Squeezebox will do that, but there are other ways.

Marco
27-06-2009, 21:10
Hi Dave,

The Sony you linked to last is (obviously) a receiver, so it has a built-in amp which you don't need, although it could be used as a standalone tuner. Given the vintage, it'll probably sound fairly respectable, but I suspect (unless someone here knows better from direct experience) that particular model may be rather unremarkable.

It'll also be pretty big - bigger than the '66, shown earlier, I would have thought. Did you not have an issue with space?

The problem with vintage tuners, just like vintage anything, is that it's no guarantee of quality. There's a lot of old shit out there, too. To find the gems, you need to know how to sort the wheat from the chaff :)

Marco.

DaveK
27-06-2009, 21:32
The MP2 stream found on the Sky Box, the Virgin Box and on Freeview I rate about the same as my Quad 77 FM Tuner (an expensive box), if you route the stream through a decent DAC (the Beresford counts)

Higher quality streams can be found on the internet, but again you have to get the stream cleanly to a decent DAC - and that is not so easy, especially with a Windows PC.

A £130 streaming device like a Squeezebox will sidestep the audio routines in a PC and deliver a bit perfect stream to the DAC. This 320 Kb/s stream coded MP3 is better than your Sky box ........./
/..........
BUT

you have to get them cleanly to your DAC - a Squeezebox will do that, but there are other ways.

Hi Brian,
Thanks for that and your patience in posting it all again for the benefit of a newbie - much appreciated. :)
The cryptic remark quoted in blue above is very intrigueing, hinting as it does about getting the high quality streams without necessarily spending £130 on a Squeezebox - would you care to elaborate please? :scratch:
Thanks again,

The Grand Wazoo
27-06-2009, 21:50
Hi Dave,

The Sony you linked to last is (obviously) a receiver, so it has a built-in amp which you don't need, although it could be used as a standalone tuner. Given the vintage, it'll probably sound fairly respectable, but I suspect (unless someone here knows better from direct experience) that particular model may be rather unremarkable.

It'll also be pretty big - bigger than the '66, shown earlier, I would have thought. Did you not have an issue with space?

The problem with vintage tuners, just like vintage anything, is that it's no guarantee of quality. There's a lot of old shit out there, too. To find the gems, you need to know how to sort the wheat from the chaff :)

Marco.


Dave,
As Marco says it is a receiver - amp & tuner. I love receivers of a certain age & standard & have a few, but this is not for you. I own the amp that this receiver is based on - it was the first hi-fi amp I ever owned & my daughter has used it for the last 5 years. It's now in my spare room.

Marco's assessment is accurate - it's no great shakes. This sort of thing is ok for background music in another room, but hi-fi's moved on a lot from here!

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 22:22
Hi Dave

Now you know why I refused to be drawn further into arguement earlier on in the thread.

I sit on the digital side of the radio fence, partly because of the fact that I live in a difficult area on the Lancashire Moors.

Although I have clear line of site to Winter Hill transmitter, I have a bloody great mill chimney just to the side of that path, and multipath distortion starts to come into play - I am not prepared to go to the expense of a narrow field high gain aerial to get over the problem.

I do have an unused NAD tuner sat around, but I suspect that it would not return a high enough quality signal to warrant the cost of the aerial.

I am also not prepared to go out and spend good money on a decent tuner as many of the stations I listen to use compression quite freely - Radio 3 is not something I sit listening to every night - Radio 2 is more my bag.

When I first had Sky installed I found a simple solution to my radio listening problems. Since then getting a StanDac and hooking the Sky box up to it the quality and enjoyment levels went up quite a bit. Performing the Mod21 stuff has raised the bar a lot higher still - I know exactly where you were coming from when you made the post starting this thread.

I now find myself listening to radio almost exclusively off t'interweb, streaming by means of a Squeezebox SB3 (now known as Classic), also hooked up to my StanDac, and the number of quality stations, both in terms of content and sound quality is pretty astonishing. The BBC station streams do not qualify as high quality sound IMO, although they are quite passable. The BBC though treat hardware streamers (such as Sueezebox) with some disdain and as a passing "fad", so are unlikely to improve these streams any time soon. If I used a software player (read as computer directly connected to the main audio rig - won't be happening anytime soon) then I can access the LabRat feeds on iPlayer.

So now you have a good idea as to the where's and why's of my radio listening experience.

I still think the proposed analogue radio switch off is a poorly conceived idea, 'cos DAB sounds pants and should be replaced with something capable of even greater fidelity than FM through a really decent tuner. I believe that the DAB program in one of the Nordic countries (was it Sweden ?) was dropped because of public pressure and displeasure at the drop in sound quality entailed by its' very adoption. Common sense prevailed there, why not here ?

Time and again we get sold short in the quality stakes and get told that it's called progress.

The quality issues about DAB are probably going to get swept under the carpet in the process. We in turn are expected to just accept the shit that gets handed to us.

I feel that we should demand far better quality radio than we already have.

Chris:)

DaveK
27-06-2009, 22:53
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that - nice to hear from you again - well past my bedtime now so only quick question: -

"Performing the Mod21 stuff has raised the bar a lot higher still"

You know what a numptie newbie I am - please explain as raising the bar above what I get now appeals greatly. :)
Look forward to hearing from you again,
Cheers,

Stratmangler
27-06-2009, 23:18
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that - nice to hear from you again - well past my bedtime now so only quick question: -

"Performing the Mod21 stuff has raised the bar a lot higher still"

You know what a numptie newbie I am - please explain as raising the bar above what I get now appeals greatly. :)
Look forward to hearing from you again,
Cheers,

Hi Dave

I've been lurking, following the developments and responses in this thread. I'm pleased that everyone was fairly gentle with you, but, as you can see, the whole subject is a can of worms, and the potential for more emotional and less well reasoned and rational responses is great.

You can sleep peacefully in the knowledge that Mod21 does not apply to the TC-7520 - my DAC is the earlier TC-7510 and the Mod21 was something Stan came up with before the TC-7520 came out.

Your DAC can have its' performance raised by Op Amp swapouts - there is a very long thread on this.

However, by all accounts the 7520 is better than the modded 7510 from the off. I'd have a 7520 by now but for my totally crap fiscal situation - hopefully that will improve sooner rather than later.

As I'm fairly well (although not totally) housebound at the moment you can get me most of the time - give us a call - I enjoy our chats.

Good to hear that you and Sue enjoyed your musical evening out last week.

Take care - we'll speak soon

Chris:)

Barry
28-06-2009, 01:52
Hi Dave,

'Ammunition' - It was just a figure of speech. I had to go off-line as there was lunch to be eaten, shopping to be done and grass to be cut.


Why are some fellow members getting so upset about the forthcoming demise of FM broadcasts when repacing it with something better, IMHO, is so easy and so relatively unexpensive - any elements of Ludditeism ? ...... or am I missing something (not for the first time ! ).

I think you have some reasons already, but I'll add some more.

1. DAB is advertised as being interference-free and is supposed to be easier to receive than FM. Unfortunately the reality is that DAB's reception is far from perfect. Interference in the form of multipath can reduce the signal strength at the main carrier frequency and this result in too many bits of the digital signal being in error and a sound that is commonly called bubbling or boiling mud - because of the similarity between these sounds and what you hear on your DAB radio. This is quite a common problem with reception of DAB signals. If the multipath interference gets any worse than when you hear the bubbling sounds then the signal will dropout altogether and the audio mutes. This too is not uncommon, but you won't see this mentioned in the DAB advertisements.

Reading the comments made in the the Times article, the overwhelming majority of writers stated that reception was poor and so was the quality.

2. You are receiving your digital radio via DRM (I believe) which uses a higher bit rate than DAB (again I believe). UK DAB uses the lowest bit rates in Europe

3. DAB has already been abandoned in Europe. They are considering DAB+ which is backwards compatable with DAB but not vice versa (that is DAB+ will decode DAB signals, but DAB will not decode DAB+).

4. The UK and the BBC will thus be adopting an obsolete system to replace a perfectly good FM system, and we'll be stuck with it.

5. You may be happy with your software radio, but it is not 'wireless' (in the sense of being portable) is it? Don't you have other portable radios in your house? If you do, then they will need to be replaced with DAB machines, and then:

6. At the moment DAB radios are > £40. The government says costs will come down to ~ £20. Who's going to make them? The Chinese, not British manufacturers, so loss of work in the UK.

7. Portable DAB radios get through batteries roughly five times faster than FM portable radios. More batteries in the landfill.

8. There are probably 40 million households in the UK, with about 100 million radios, either portable radios or tuners. This figure does not include car radios. All that is going to end up in landfill - is that progress? And who's going to have to pay the 2 billion pounds to replace them all - we are!

9. Car manufacturers are not fitting, and have stated that they will not fit DAB radios in new cars. So when FM is switched off, no more traffic news or updates.

10. The national network of FM transmitters costs about £10 million a year to run, that's about 0.3% of the BBC's annual budget - peanuts, or 17p per person per year.

And finally -

No-one asked the public about this, it is a fait accompli - is that Democracy?

Regards

Labarum
28-06-2009, 03:25
about getting the high quality streams without necessarily spending £130 on a Squeezebox - would you care to elaborate please?

It depends where your PC is, how noisy it is, what Operating System it runs, and what its sound card will do.

You are buying a Beresford 7520 which has a USB input. Couple the PC to the 7520 and off you go. BBC iPlayer will run in most browsers. For other internet stations you can use free softwares like Songbird http://getsongbird.com/ or Winamp http://www.winamp.com/player. Windows Media Player gives you radio access, and so does iTunes. There is lots of choice. You can, of course rip your CD collection to hard drive in a lossless format and play at the click of a button. The options are amazing.

But can you get your PC close to your HiFi? And do you want it there? Can you run a long USB cable from one room to the next? Will that give a secure connection? How will you control the PC in the next room?

And there are issues with the Windows Operating system mangling the bitream with its own processing and mixing routines. Read about ASIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output and WASAPI (just Google that) What Windows does may not make any difference to the heard quality, but it may, depending on the resolution of your replay chain. Stan is very coy about getting a bit perfect transfer via USB into the 7520. But in the end it may not matter.

Your soundcard may have an S/PDIF output to feed to the DAC using a Toslink optical cable or a digital interlink with phono plugs. But you need to know what you are doing, and you need to know what the soundcard is doing to your bitstream.

Read:

http://daw.kickassproject.com/give-me-bit-accuracy-or-give-me-a-beer/

You can sidestep all these issues using a wireless streamer - it bypasses any audio processing in the PC that might mess with your music, its keeps the PC out of the listening room, and it gives you a domestically friendly user interface. Or you could spend £500 on a MacMini - it doesn't mess with the sound and has an optical out to feed the Standac. You still, of course need a control interface for the MacMini.

You could use an Apple Airport Express (with an Apple or a Windows PC) http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MB321B/A/AirPort-Express-AirTunes?fnode=MTY1NDA0Mg&mco=MjE0NDc0OQ £80, but you would still need an iTouch or iPhone to remotely control it, and you are tied to apple software.

There are other streamers, see this site

https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/

and hardwares that will stream video as well as audio; but, at the moment I cannot see a more cost effective solution than Squeezebox. As a bonus you can rip your CD collection to your hard drive in a lossless format like FLAC, and play all your best recorded music at the click of a button and probably better than your CD player will do it. The Squeezebox solution is an incredibly flexible system, and because most of the software is open source there is a whole bunch of clever people developing ad-ons and plugins.

See

http://forums.slimdevices.com/

And I am sorry if that is totally confusing, but you did ask for elaboration.

DaveK
28-06-2009, 15:03
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your comprehensive answer. I'll be honest and admit that, at the moment I have not read any of your links, but I will, honest ! The point of this posting is, as well as proving what a numptie I am on these matters, is to ask you to focus on my particular situation, which may make reading some of the links unneccessary and confusing (for me !)

It depends where your PC is, how noisy it is, what Operating System it runs, and what its sound card will do. My PC is a Vaio MM VGX-XL201 into which I have added another 2GB of memory, making a total of 3GB. It is running Win Vista Home Premium 32 bit. Device Manager will not provide any sound card info except to say "SigmaTel High Definition Audio Codec" - it is equipped with the usual Ethernet, USB 2.0, Line In and Out phono jacks, plus Optical In and Out, Co-Ax Out, and FireWire, HDMI and Component (Y/Pb/Pr) and Component Audio , plus Componet Video In jack,and S-Video In port. (confusingly well equipped for a numptie like me). I bought it about 3 years ago from my local SonyStyle dealer (last one, giveaway price but overspec'd for me but, perhaps, future proof ?). It is situated right at the side of the amp as it is about the same size and colour (black) of your average amp.
Now for the real 'numptieness' - whilst sussing out what ports it has I noticed it is also equipped with a FM antenna port - forgot all about this because of crap reception in my area. Don't know how sensitive the tuner is but Device manager lists it as "AVerMedia Hybrid TV Tuner Card A16C (DVB-T/PAL/SECAM/FM). At best maybe I just need a bloody good aerial and at worst maybe I need to spend some serious money to get high quality radio.

You are buying a Beresford 7520 which has a USB input. Got one, already USB coupled successfully to PC. Couple the PC to the 7520 and off you go. BBC iPlayer will run in most browsers. For other internet stations you can use free softwares like Songbird http://getsongbird.com/ or Winamp http://www.winamp.com/player.Got WinAmp already installed and playing my mp3, flac and other music files through the 7520. Windows Media Player gives you radio access latest version already installed and working, and so does iTunes.Already installed and working - trying to decide which is best source for PC based music files - still undecided. There is lots of choice. You can, of course rip your CD collection to hard drive in a lossless format already done some of the collection to FLAC using EAC, remainder are mp3 or similarly compressed and play at the click of a button. The options are amazing. Yep, and confusing !!

And there are issues with the Windows Operating system mangling the bitream with its own processing and mixing routines. Read about ASIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output and WASAPI (just Google that) What Windows does may not make any difference to the heard quality, but it may, depending on the resolution of your replay chain. Stan is very coy about getting a bit perfect transfer via USB into the 7520. But in the end it may not matter.

Your soundcard may have an S/PDIF output to feed to the DAC using a Toslink optical cable or a digital interlink with phono plugs. But you need to know what you are doing, and you need to know what the soundcard is doing to your bitstream. That's just the problem, by and large I don't know what I am doing :scratch:, just bumbling along (but enjoying myself !) and I haven't a bloody clue what the soundcard is doing to the bitstream !!! :scratch:

Read:

http://daw.kickassproject.com/give-me-bit-accuracy-or-give-me-a-beer/

And I am sorry if that is totally confusing, but you did ask for elaboration.

So Brian, is there any hope for me getting anywhere near audiophile Nirvana with PC based music across (almost) all the various sources ? :scratch:
Cheers

Labarum
28-06-2009, 15:06
is there any hope for me getting anywhere near audiophile Nirvana with PC based music

Yes

Marco
28-06-2009, 15:19
Yes

Hehehe... Not one of your most comprehensive answers there, Brian! :lol:

Marco.

Labarum
28-06-2009, 15:22
Hehehe... Not one of your most comprehensive answers there, Brian! :lol:

Marco.

OK, I will expand:

Yes, but only if you are prepared to read your way into the subject.

:)

DaveK
28-06-2009, 19:42
Hehehe... Not one of your most comprehensive answers there, Brian! :lol:

Marco.

Yes Marco, maybe not BUT.....
what you don't know, but Brian and I do, is that all my answers need to be very simple so that I have no problem understanding them :mental:. Brian has been considerate enough to bear this in mind so.... :ner::ner::ner: leave us alone, we know what we're doing !! :lolsign:
Cheers,

Labarum
28-06-2009, 20:02
It's OK, Dave. Marco is the "Analogue Boy" and will remain deeply sceptical no matter whether I use many or few words.

<Hugs for Marco>

Let me add a few more: keep the audio away from the PC, a Squeezebox solves so many problems and is dirt cheap compared to other options for radio - FM or digital. The up to date version of my Quad Tuner costs £700!

Your PC is used only a server to store your CDs and a host to run Squeezecentre. If you already have a wireless router in the house you will be setup and running in minutes. If you have no home network, but just a single PC, you have a bit more work to do.

But first get your 7520 and see what it sounds like with the output from the Skybox and when coupled to your PC with a USB lead. (Assuming the PC and the HiFi are or can be in the same room)

I am sitting in my lounge typing this on a laptop listening to

AVRO Klassiek Beste, Netherlands
Richard Strauss - Jessye Norman, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Kurt Masur - Vier letzte Lieder (Philips 411052-2)
256kbps CBR, MP3 Internet Radio

http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

The Laptop controls the Squeezebox via a web interface although the Infrared Remote control is on the coffee table in front of me.

When I first bought the Squeezebox I loaded Squeezecentre (the audio server) on the study desktop pc - I could still control it from the laptop. Now Squeezecentre is on the laptop - it makes no difference.

This Strauss is incredibly beautiful . . .

OOO

This has just started


Giovanni Battista Pergolesi - Gillian Fisher, Michael Chance - Stabat Mater

and now I have

Gustav Mahler - Berliner Philharmoniker, Claud - Symfonie nr.5 in cis_ Adagiett

DaveK
28-06-2009, 20:34
It's OK, Dave. Marco is the "Analogue Boy" and will remain deeply sceptical no matter whether I use many or few words.

<Hugs for Marco>

Let me add a few more: keep the audio away from the PC, I assume that you mean 'software wise' as my PC is physically side by side with amp a Squeezebox solves so many problems and is dirt cheap compared to other options for radio - FM or digital. Your PC is used only a server to store your CDs and a host to run Squeezecentre. but mine has (some sort of) fm capability and is therefore less expensive than "dirt cheap" - not arguing, just commenting - I'm quite good at taking advice and following it ! :)

If you already have a wireless router in the house you will be setup and running in minutes. Wired and wireless If you have no home network, but just a single PC, you have a bit more work to do.

But first get your 7520 and see what it sounds like with the output from the Skybox and when couple to your PC with a USB lead. (Assuming the PC and the HiFi are or can be in the same room) Yes they are - did that earlier today, sounded good then and this evening, with some help from Stratmangler, have loaded ASIO plugin for FooBar and, if anything, (early days yet), it sounds even better. Question: - are the benefits of ASIO available using USB connection between PC and 7520?

I am sitting in my lounge typing this on a laptop listening to

AVRO Klassiek Beste, Netherlands
Richard Strauss - Jessye Norman, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Kurt Masur - Vier letzte Lieder (Philips 411052-2)
256kbps CBR, MP3 Internet Radio

http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?id=s55517&Formats=mp3,wma,real&username=sampletime&PartnerId=16

Tried this link and get an Error Messsage "This file does not have a program associated with it for performing this action. Create an association using the Set Association control panel" Search as I might I cannot find how to do this - any ideas ? (I quite like Strauss) :)
The Laptop controls the Squeezebox via a web interface although the Infrared Remote control is on the coffee table in front of me.

When I first bought the Squeezebox I loaded Squeezecentre (the audio server) on the study desktop pc - I could still control it from the laptop. Now Squeezecentre is on the laptop - it makes no difference.

This Strauss is incredibly beautiful . . .

Thanks again and let's ignore Marco, eh!:)
(don't mean it really Marco, don't want you to think I've got a down on you ;))
Cheers,

Labarum
28-06-2009, 20:39
Thanks . . .

A practical tip on board usage, Dave:

You don't have to quote everything said previously. You can edit what appears between {QUOTE] and [/QUOTE}

Marco
29-06-2009, 10:55
Thanks again and let's ignore Marco, eh!
(don't mean it really Marco, don't want you to think I've got a down on you )


Hey, you've no worries on that score, matey! I know where my experience and expertise lies, and it's not in this area, so Brian's yer man :)

Marco.

trailer
29-06-2009, 12:23
If you go with the AppleTV/Airport Express option you're not entirely limited to Apple software. There's always Airfoil.

Mind you you still need an iPhone/iTouch to control it remotely.

Airfoil also do an Airfoil speakers app for the iPhone/iTouch so whatever you are streaming you can pick up on the iPhone/iTouch and listen to it through the speakers/headphones. Handy for remote headphoning.

Spectral Morn
30-06-2009, 08:51
Apologies, Dave,
It wasn't supposed to jab that much - I was being a little unexpressive, I think.

Neil I fear a Truffle might not be up to making the most of the signal Dave's situation can provide (though I do agree about them sounding great in mono).

I'd be looking for something a little more modern (though not much) - some of the early - mid seventies Sansui's, for example, can be had for peanuts, & will pull in a usable signal in some of the worst conditions imaginable.

For £15, Dave, you could give this a go:
http://www.greenhomeshop.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=1113

........& you'll get a guarantee - Dave who runs Green Home Electronics, is a member here & will treat you well, I'm sure.

Very low risk. This was a pretty cheap tuner in it's day, but I think it'll trounce the Marantz you've seen in all respects except matching the rest of your gear.

This item is not in stock nor was it. An error in Greenhome electronics stocking system has resulted in this item which was sold ages ago being put back into stock and thus appearing to be still available.

Can I suggest that anyone interested in items being offered from Greenhome or other retailers on-line wait and phone during office hours to check stock availability. Just because its listed does mean its actually there.

Its this sort of issue that put me of offering an after hours electronic retail system when I was in the trade.


Regards D S D L

Stratmangler
09-07-2009, 08:22
This morning I have had a really pleasant surprise.

I put the radio on - Radio 2 - Johnny Walker, accessed via Squeezebox /Beresford etc
Almost immediately I thought that the music being played sounded better than normal.

I didn't think much of it, until I opened Squeezecenter on the computer, and there in the now playing box was this information....


BBC Radio 2
128kbps CBR, WMA Internet Radio

When did the BBC up the bitrates ?

I am very pleased that it has happened.
The next step is to get the BBC to make it an AAC+ stream at the same bitrate - then we'll be cooking !

Chris:):):)

Labarum
09-07-2009, 10:04
Chris,

The higher bitrates have been available in WMA for some time. I append my list to this post.

AAC+ is also available but only if you use iPlayer on a computer - it's wrapped up in flash and a Squeezebox cant get at it.

Has the Squeezebox team changed the default access to the BBC streams, and is that why it has changed for you?

Watch this site

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/broadband_internet_radio.htm

---

BBC WMA Streams

R1

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r1.asx

R2

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r2.asx

R3

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3.asx

R4

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4.asx

R4 Longwave

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4lw.asx

R5 Live

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5l.asx

R5 Live Sports Extra

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r5lsp.asx

R6 Music

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r6.asx

R7

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r7.asx

R Asian Network

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/ran.asx

R4 Longwave

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r4lw.asx

Stratmangler
09-07-2009, 10:38
Thanks Brian

I've just realised something - since I last listened to BBC radio services via Squeezebox I have updated from SC 7.3.2 to SC 7.3.3 - there may also have been changes to the feed addresses in the iPlayer plugin, which have slipped past me unnoticed.

Regardless of the technicalities, today was the first time I had noticed the changes and the improvements in service.

Now all we need is those nice chaps at the Beeb to give us AAC+ streams that are proper streams that are not flash embedded and we'll be cooking on gas.
Just as long as they do not drop the bitrates in the process.

Here's hoping.......


Chris:)

Labarum
10-07-2009, 06:45
The BBC must be doing someting with it's WMA bitrates. I have this URL in my Favourites labelled 128, but it is now 192

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/wm_asx/aod/radio3.asx