View Full Version : Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'
You can try-ee and if no like-ee it costs yer nowt.
Your thinking is basically right, but an L pad is just two resistors, in this case one is variable. Otherwise the input stage would have to be buggered around with. Lower resistance / increase capacitance reset the gain around the first stage - too much agg, and you can't mess some things without altering the balance elsewhere. The amp is designed to look at a passive pot or switched attenuator, so just think of your active pre or processor as a source. I have a couple of customers with both cinema processors as source and another one with a valve pre (Croft I think) he insists on using and they all seem happy. In the case of a home cinema system there is even an advantage as it give another way the balance the channels if the room is squif. In an active system it is another way to balance the drivers instead of messing with the crossovers.
Adenda and time for a rant :eyebrows:
We are all trapped into marketing think. It is the plague of this industry. Manufacturers do it to magazines and retailers, retailers and magazines pass it to the poor Joe public, and ego based Joe public passes it to the sheep on forums (the latest version of the disease). AND what is marketing think, well it boils down to three things 1 telling lies 2 embellishing the truth 3 diminishing competitors truths. It is a disease of the western world so I cannot cure it, but at least I can point a finger at the moon and try not to be part of it.
Buzz words - active - passive - digital - analogue - valve - solid state - horn - etc etc etc. People make money from you by misusing and misrepresenting *things*. They are of no bloody importance ultimately!! There is only one thing that is important and that is *your* music and how you want to hear it, as long as it is realised that you will grow up (change) as time goes on. So pedantic absolutes spouted one year come back to bite yer bum and make you look stupid the next, unless you have the control over your ego enough to back out of the cul-de sac you stuck yourself up.
This place and *more* so on other forums, they are being dominated by marketing men, ego based amatuers and the proffessionals, either paying for the privelege at other forums or encouraged here. Is this wrong, no not at all, as long as you have the intellegence to see through it. What I think is important is that we get some balance by getting some *real* tech-ies to talk to you. But they are very few and far between on forums and are mostly one man bands who haven't yet fallen into the marketing trap. As far as the bigger companies are concerned in most cases the guys that know what is what are banned to talk to you as they will just show up the marketing bullshit for what it is.
Rant over.
Ahhh, thanks for that mate, I understand now. In my mind it was only a question of gain and overload, but I guess that's why I'm a consumer and not an engineer. :)
AND you can ask someone who can give a you reply and not have it filtered through a marketing dept.
Our industry is on the edge of big changes. Up to now the customer has been at the mercy of a bullshit micro climate. Information was filtered through marketing depts retailers and magazines and they all have their own pockets to fill.
How many of you realise why UK prices for H.E.Hi-Fi are so high compared with the rest of the world. The need to place advertising in order to get magazine representation, the need to give a 50% (of retail price) profit margin to retailers in order to make them stock your products.
We are one of the highest profit industries around, for every £10 spent on components and labour you get another £80 as contribution to manufacturing overheads, then about another £20 for marketing overheads, then if using a distributor another £40 for his pocket, then the retailer another (minimum) £150 :confused: for his pocket. £10 to £300 - ridiculous. All approx figures.
What is changing it, well the flat earth hi-fi mafia is losing power, the cartels can no longer dictate the way they used to. Reason - customers are finding their voices and finding *real* information, why - because of on line forums and the creation of community. Look at all the people meeting up for lunch drinks and to gang up on certain manufacturers that is being organised on the forums for the Heathrow Show and a week or two ago at Bristol. Real people actually reviewing and recomending product for other real people, and not pretending to be some sort of demi-god who tells you what to buy.
For manufacturers freedom is being given by on line sales, no longer can retailers dictate the terms or decide if a products sells. I remember years and years a go a loudspeaker company who got thoroughly pissed off with being shafted by retailers and magazines and started to sell direct, BUT no web so only advertising based. Well the cartels and the mafia murdered him (his business). Who was it, who remembers Richard Allen? Now to start off you have ebay and if you want if you get a reputation then your own Website. Problem some greedy buggers still want to make the same money but keep it all for themselves so prices stay sky high and still ripping the punter off. But some of the new set ups, one man guys like Beresford and others are supplying the public at Trade Price, so at last Hi-Fi in the UK is beginning to get competitive with the prices similar to those always available in the USA.
Now it is your turn, stand your ground, it is recession time, stand up, don't put up with being ripped off any more. BUT judge who is already giving you a good deal. If retailers go bust too bad. If distributors go bust too bad. The Dinosaur had to give way and so will they.
Enjoyed reading that Richard, I agree totally having been disollusioned by my local hifi dealer a long time ago...arrogant, elitist and talked at me in hifi magazine soundbites and advertising slogans...pathetic. It also strikes me as laughable when you read a magazine review of a product and the following page carries a full size advert of said product. Big up the little man.
Enjoyed reading that Richard, I agree totally having been disollusioned by my local hifi dealer a long time ago...arrogant, elitist and talked at me in hifi magazine soundbites and advertising slogans...pathetic. It also strikes me as laughable when you read a magazine review of a product and the following page carries a full size advert of said product. Big up the little man.
There are still potential problems and pitfalls though scoobs. A forum becomes popular, a community is created, so the owner wants to cash in - stick his nose in the trough with all the other pigs. Who does he feed off, well the very elements that caused all the problems in the first place - the retailers and the marketing men - "come on lads £50 a time, the fools are still there to be fleeced" - so someone refuses to pay, will not play the game, wants to see the rules of the game changed, so they are banned and the forum becomes yet another filter for information, another form of sensorship because the *rules* say a banned member or his products cannot be mentioned or discussed - very convenient! Both Pink Fish and Wigwam operate like this, Zerogain does so by proxy because it is ruled by the same people as PF. Though this in ultimate terms is still at this stage a minor irritation, apart from to the small manufacturing buggers like Beresford who are blocked from their customers. For me not such a big problem as I am lucky to have a recognised name and brand with many years of trading behind it. A forums power is its membership, without members a forum is nothing, a forum is not its owner(s), apart from as the necessary function of a school playground monitor. :)
Again if you put up with it you will create the same situation on line as you created with the retailers, magazines and distributors - they can only do it because you let them - then as forums and on line community becomes more powerfull then £100 - £200 etc, the skys the limit, on line adverts and reviews by *the experts* and you end up with another bullshit environment just like the magazines. Human nature is weird, like the politicians, one lot moans and calls the others pigs in the trough until they get their noses in and then they slurp like everyone else.
Yup, I have first hand experience of this kind of nonsense too, myself and another comedic canine alter-ego were 'spoken to' for rattlin' on about NVA on another forum, and the thread was later locked! only to be followed up by ridiculous rumours of back handers and discounts etc...sour grapes perhaps because it was beginning to eclipse a well regarded dealer 'love-in' thread that had sat proudly at the top of the listing for some time. My eyes are wide open these days. I'd better stop here.
Yup, I have first hand experience of this kind of nonsense too, myself and another comedic canine alter-ego were 'spoken to' for rattlin' on about NVA on another forum, and the thread was later locked! only to be followed up by ridiculous rumours of back handers and discounts etc...sour grapes perhaps because it was beginning to eclipse a well regarded dealer 'love-in' thread that had sat proudly at the top of the listing for some time. My eyes are wide open these days. I'd better stop here.
It was and is a complete bunch of lies. I issue a challenge to them. If anyone can come up with proof that I gave discount or gifts to forum members for mention of my products I will *give* them a free amplifier. I give discount for damaged or marked cases and they are called second stock and marked so at ebay. To people I trust I have given equipment on loan, and that is it. It is just bullshit excuses for behaviour trying to maintain the trough and its available slurp. Originating from the £50-ers who don't want people queerying their pitch and expedited by an admin desperate to turn community into profit.
Why stop woofy it is time for this behaviour to be outed, or are you scared they will boot you? there you go that is the power being created and why Beresford - nva etc is not mentioned and threads are pulled. They would not dare ban you - it is in the public domain now. Why! because *this* forum hasn't joined the burgioning forum cartel. Where any problems or discussion from one forum cannot be discussed at another - soooo convenient!
Filterlab
15-03-2008, 13:02
I never understood why some forums wouldn't (and won't) let people talk about certain manufacturers' products, whether it be from a consumers point of view or a dealers / manufacturers point of view. It's all hi-fi, it's all harmless and so what if bloke 'A' wants to sell his gear whilst bloke 'B' doesn't, the whole point of a forum is for like minded folk to get together and chat about their hobby.
Obviously there have to be certain guidelines as to behaviour towards other folk, but locking threads for mentioning hi-fi is rather unusual. Not here mates, anyone can chat about any manufacturer, anyone can promote their stuff, anyone can compliment other's stuff. How else will anyone find out about things otherwise?
I never understood why some forums wouldn't (and won't) let people talk about certain manufacturers' products, whether it be from a consumers point of view or a dealers / manufacturers point of view. It's all hi-fi, it's all harmless and so what if bloke 'A' wants to sell his gear whilst bloke 'B' doesn't, the whole point of a forum is for like minded folk to get together and chat about their hobby.
Obviously there have to be certain guidelines as to behaviour towards other folk, but locking threads for mentioning hi-fi is rather unusual. Not here mates, anyone can chat about any manufacturer, anyone can promote their stuff, anyone can compliment other's stuff. How else will anyone find out about things otherwise?
What is the motivation for any behaviour, money - power - sex. It is extremely unlikely the latter is the motivation, but at WW I have my doubts at some of the "bake-off" motivations :eyebrows: :lolsign: In this case the two former but still largely sitting as a *potential*.
Ok, Richard, what's the new thread to be called. Your choice :)
Marco.
Ok, Richard, what's the new thread to be called. Your choice :)
Marco.
Up yours Mr WW!
Up yours Mr WW!
Mmmm... Can we have something a soupçon less provocative? :bum:
Marco.
Mmmm... Can we have something a soupçon less provocative? :bum:
Marco.
Up your forum
Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:
Marco.
Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:
Marco.
I am sure you will make a much more *sensible* choice than me :ner:
Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:
Marco.
Dick's Picks.
:smoking:
Right folks, this is Richard's personal ranting room where he can 'let loose' on any subject he feels like (within reason).
This room will be closely but not (necessarily) strictly monitored ;)
Ok, Richard, the 'floor' is yours - enjoy!
Marco.
Right folks, this is Richard's personal ranting room where he can 'let loose' on any subject he feels like (within reason).
This room will be closely but not (necessarily) strictly monitored ;)
Ok, Richard, the 'floor' is yours - enjoy!
Marco.
I *HATE* rhubarb and semolina
The question is, would you offer them to the admin of WW if they were starving? {Titter}
Marco.
The question is, would you offer them to the admin of WW if they were starving? {Titter}
Marco.
I would always help a starving animal.
Filterlab
16-03-2008, 10:49
:D Nice!!
By the way, I'm going to make this a sticky - great thread. :)
Steve Toy
16-03-2008, 11:46
I like this thread. Richard makes some interesting and valid points.
I like this thread. Richard makes some interesting and valid points.
So you don't you like rhubarb and semolina either
Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!
Am I looking in the right place HERE (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/TC-7510/about.html) ?
???
Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!
Am I looking in the right place HERE (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/TC-7510/about.html) ?
???
Yes.
I've been using one since just before Xmas,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.
Well worth a punt at £100.00 delivered.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 14:57
As Richard isn't ranting I thought I would.
Hi Fi has been declining and businesses have been going bust, absorbed and sold since the early eighties, the process has been relentless and progressive with periodic acceleration caused by economic downturn or major manufacturing hiccups. In '97 for instance, as manufacturers tried to reduce the costs of CD mechs and adapt them for computer usage, some very unreliable ones were sold and in my opinion they damaged quite a few hi fi companies irreparably. In more recent years more damage has been done by Copy protection, CD's that wouldn't play in CD players did in computers while iPods were in the ascendency. And while all this has been going on, TV technology and DVD players have been making the running.
IMO Computers and TVs are merging because people need the space and just as Youtube is more popular than TV with some groups, adverts are most effective with C3 women and very ineffective with older and usually richer men who, apart from manual menial, are very computer literate and enjoy music.
Because of all these changes, many of which are happening quickly like the move to downloads for music billed as the fastest format change on record, hi fi enthusiasts have become marginalised. I also think that (as do many relative outsiders like us) that many are unhappy with their systems although they don't want to admit it just yet. If you look at PF for instance, many posts describe awful sounding gear and there are also people experimenting with all sorts of technically unsound but fun projects like valves, vinyl and horns. If hi fi was any good, nobody would be talking about it, they'd discuss music instead, surely?
The net result of all these changes for the magazines and the manufacturers is that a cosy little circle remains. A small group of companies, retailers and magazines have cosied up together to maintain a what amounts to a Cartel. I'm sure that it's just happened, that there is nothing sinister about it and that there's no deliberate dishonesty or corruption, just as I'm sure that it doesn't serve the customer well, which is why he's not getting particularly good sound and he's paying through the nose for it.
I see it all changing in the next year or so, not just because Camridge Audio is better and cheaper than much of it, but because Computers (Apple especially) PS3's, Sonos and numerous cheaper streaming devices have made CD players redundant, all that's now needed is a DAC an Amp and speakers, probably 2.1 for TV and movies as well. Despite silly arguments from those with axes to grind, most accept that noughts and ones are all the same and that it's the DAC that matters.
If these predictions prove true then most of the kit to do it can come from discount or online stores and Pro Audio outlets for a fraction of the price of super overpriced allegedly hi end. And they might do, because houses are being built smaller and people are more interested than they used to be in "design", "minimalism" and saving space.
Has anyone experienced a 24" iMac with Elgato TV, Front Row and a decent hi fi? Because they should, Apple (and others soon) will probably revolutionise TV. Instead of putting up adverts and having to watch at specific times, you'll soon be able to buy and watch whatever you want when you want it and you'll soon be able to rent a movie without it being part of a Sky rental package or having to go to Blockbusters or whatever. If all this doesn't happen quickly, it'll damage Movie companies as much as it has Music ones, who've completely misjudged the situation and suffered as a consequence. Rumours are that CD sales are dropping more quickly this than last year.
I know that hi fi enthusiasts may not watch much TV, but these options will affect some just as others will increase computer usage - getting away from Microsoft operating systems and moving better integrated ones with better media functions will accelerate the pace of change.
The future is very exciting indeed, we've never had access to more music or more different types, however, for companies making boxes, cables, stands, add on upgrades etc etc, I think life will get harder still.
As Richard isn't ranting I thought I would.
Hi Fi has been declining and businesses have been going bust, absorbed and sold since the early eighties, the process has been relentless and progressive with periodic acceleration caused by economic downturn or major manufacturing hiccups. In '97 for instance, as manufacturers tried to reduce the costs of CD mechs and adapt them for computer usage, some very unreliable ones were sold and in my opinion they damaged quite a few hi fi companies irreparably. In more recent years more damage has been done by Copy protection, CD's that wouldn't play in CD players did in computers while iPods were in the ascendency. And while all this has been going on, TV technology and DVD players have been making the running.
IMO Computers and TVs are merging because people need the space and just as Youtube is more popular than TV with some groups, adverts are most effective with C3 women and very ineffective with older and usually richer men who, apart from manual menial, are very computer literate and enjoy music.
Because of all these changes, many of which are happening quickly like the move to downloads for music billed as the fastest format change on record, hi fi enthusiasts have become marginalised. I also think that (as do many relative outsiders like us) that many are unhappy with their systems although they don't want to admit it just yet. If you look at PF for instance, many posts describe awful sounding gear and there are also people experimenting with all sorts of technically unsound but fun projects like valves, vinyl and horns. If hi fi was any good, nobody would be talking about it, they'd discuss music instead, surely?
The net result of all these changes for the magazines and the manufacturers is that a cosy little circle remains. A small group of companies, retailers and magazines have cosied up together to maintain a what amounts to a Cartel. I'm sure that it's just happened, that there is nothing sinister about it and that there's no deliberate dishonesty or corruption, just as I'm sure that it doesn't serve the customer well, which is why he's not getting particularly good sound and he's paying through the nose for it.
I see it all changing in the next year or so, not just because Camridge Audio is better and cheaper than much of it, but because Computers (Apple especially) PS3's, Sonos and numerous cheaper streaming devices have made CD players redundant, all that's now needed is a DAC an Amp and speakers, probably 2.1 for TV and movies as well. Despite silly arguments from those with axes to grind, most accept that noughts and ones are all the same and that it's the DAC that matters.
If these predictions prove true then most of the kit to do it can come from discount or online stores and Pro Audio outlets for a fraction of the price of super overpriced allegedly hi end. And they might do, because houses are being built smaller and people are more interested than they used to be in "design", "minimalism" and saving space.
Has anyone experienced a 24" iMac with Elgato TV, Front Row and a decent hi fi? Because they should, Apple (and others soon) will probably revolutionise TV. Instead of putting up adverts and having to watch at specific times, you'll soon be able to buy and watch whatever you want when you want it and you'll soon be able to rent a movie without it being part of a Sky rental package or having to go to Blockbusters or whatever. If all this doesn't happen quickly, it'll damage Movie companies as much as it has Music ones, who've completely misjudged the situation and suffered as a consequence. Rumours are that CD sales are dropping more quickly this than last year.
I know that hi fi enthusiasts may not watch much TV, but these options will affect some just as others will increase computer usage - getting away from Microsoft operating systems and moving better integrated ones with better media functions will accelerate the pace of change.
The future is very exciting indeed, we've never had access to more music or more different types, however, for companies making boxes, cables, stands, add on upgrades etc etc, I think life will get harder still.
So you want to use an anti marketing and bullshit thread to perpetuate it, I admire your gall :lolsign:
The sign of a skillfull marketer and politician is to spin criticism into a way of promoting *your* ideas and products. You are obviously good at your job :eyebrows: Well sorry I don't agree. Hi-Fi was (and will be again) for enthusiasts - MUSIC!!!!! - not products and what *YOU* want to promote. Forget the mainstream, it has gone, the tech-ie wally anorak is going to be in charge again like he was in the 50's and the early 60's, mind you don't get killed by his badges and the pens in the top pocket.
The mainstream industry has been effectively killed by marketing and greed and thankfully people are beginning to see it. Computer products - retail margin 15% ave, High End Hi-Fi - retail margin 100% only beaten by traditional furniture shops 200% :doh: which is why there are so many half price deals. They are still ripping us off. Go on prove me wrong publish your manufacturing cost v your retail price!
Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!
Am I looking in the right place HERE (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/TC-7510/about.html) ?
???
Ask Jerry - JandL100 - Jerry nearly got himself banned from WW for saying it was the best vfm dac around. He got a following at WW lots tried it and it became quite a cult thing especially as being an enthusiast he changed it every week (up to Mk 15 and a half now probably :lol:) Jerry found it and the small guy making it and selling them on ebay. An enthusiast, a tech-ie, someone trying to make a living (or probably just some spending money, most of these guys have other jobs) by doing something he loves. BUT no *not allowed*, a bit of grissle in the trough slurp to irritate the pig snouts, so it was spat out and banned to be talked about.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 17:43
I didn't think I was marketing anything Richard, just expressing an opinion as to the state of the market and guessing what might happen.
As for margins, I've heard it said that Cambridge Audio's manufacturers were previously making computer parts and struggling to make a profit, switching to hi fi has given them 20% and they are offering value for money and a bloody good product.
Aren't the M-Audio transit, the M-Audio 2496 both at around £50 and the Edirol UA 25 at a bit over £100 from major manufacturers good value too?
I didn't think I was marketing anything Richard, just expressing an opinion as to the state of the market and guessing what might happen.
As for margins, I've heard it said that Cambridge Audio's manufacturers were previously making computer parts and struggling to make a profit, switching to hi fi has given them 20% and they are offering value for money and a bloody good product.
Aren't the M-Audio transit, the M-Audio 2496 both at around £50 and the Edirol UA 25 at a bit over £100 from major manufacturers good value too?
You are a re marketing man through and through Ashley, what have you designed or built? You do a good job fronting your company.
Any way this should not lead to personal conflict. I just have an allergy to marketers and marketing. I get itchy nose and start sneezing everytime I read one or meet one. I try to avoid discomfort and disease so I will let others judge.
Steve Toy
16-03-2008, 17:54
Ashley, I was mindful of the state of the industry when I thought up the Art of Sound Forum. This place exists to support that industry because your vision of the future may turn out to be true and probably will but I for one hope it does not because such a future does not seem at all concerned with quality of reproduction of recorded music. The market could not care less about quality apart from our little niche.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 17:59
Richard, businesses often start because an Engineer designs something he fancies and tries to sell it, if he's extremely lucky he'll succeed, he may even create and opening for others to follow, but all too often he turns out to be a one hit wonder and his company lasts only until something else becomes "flavour of the month". Before this happens and while his company has a buzz going, marketing can make all the difference
Marketing provides an analysis of a market and a strategy for entering it, it's a skill and the information is, I think, interesting.
Right now there are enormous changes taking place, all providing more data and all making things more interesting than for years.
iPod Docks are the big sellers right now and everyone is jumping on the Bandwagon or, as the Australians call it, Chicken Farming.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 18:02
Steve that's because you're an old Luddite and won't accept what large chunks of the population and many Audiophiles have: The iPod Shuffle is comparable with the best CD players in sound quality.
Sound quality does matter and it getting cheaper and more accessible, it's just that some don't want to believe it and others have hi fi systems that aren't able to realise the benefits, or the owners aren't able to recognise good sound when they hear it.
Richard, businesses often start because an Engineer designs something he fancies and tries to sell it, if he's extremely lucky he'll succeed, he may even create and opening for others to follow, but all too often he turns out to be a one hit wonder and his company lasts only until something else becomes "flavour of the month". Before this happens and while his company has a buzz going, marketing can make all the difference
Marketing provides an analysis of a market and a strategy for entering it, it's a skill and the information is, I think, interesting.
Right now there are enormous changes taking place, all providing more data and all making things more interesting than for years.
iPod Docks are the big sellers right now and everyone is jumping on the Bandwagon or, as the Australians call it, Chicken Farming.
Nope, wrong yet again. Read the thread through. What you say used to happen and it happenned because if anything threatened the status quo it was sat upon and killed. For the mafia the lesson was learned in the 1980's too many small companies with great products were appearing, I could list them but there are too many. Well come the early 90's recession the mafia was so established they just dictated the selling terms to the retailers. "You support us and only sell our products and we will give you extra profit" retailer contracts, strictly illegal and against all the free market laws that came in at the end of retail price maintenance. Setting retail prices, killing competition. The reatailer loved it, slurp slurp. The small companies got conned, "yes I will sell you products, give me one to dem" rarely switched on, only used to sell *off*, if demmed then cold and used in incompatible cabling electrical supply etc, anything to make it sound worse so he can sell what he *has to* reach his yearly dictated turn over figures with Linn, Naim, Mission, Meridian, Kef, B & W etc, who could have been part of this ;).
Well most of the small guys went bust apart from the ones that jumped on the burgioning Far Eastern export market, and then that was largely killed by the Far Eastern currency crisis in 1997. British hi-fi industry gems killed by bullshit marketing and illegal selling contracts. Look for them now on ebay they make good money, people are finding them again. It is changing, now adays they can't hurt us, we rise or fall on merit, if the very freedom we have acquired is allowed us by the forum trough snufflers.
In the early 90's there was a trade magazine called Inside Hi-Fi run by Stan Curtis's wife. It wanted letters and rep of the state of the industry, so I tried a couple of times. I have lost the first one but this was the follow up after most of the industry had been killed apart from the exporters.
This was 1992 or 3
***************************************
Write Inside
Dear Angela,
Seeing it is not only you but some of your more prominent!! readers asking for more letters in your mag, I thought I would make another attempt at the bubbly. I would like to follow up on the theme of my letter of last year. That letter enticed two 'phone calls, one from Ivor Tiefenbrun explaining at great length!!! his dealer contracts. After I managed to get a word in edgeways I was told if I won't listen there is no point in trying to educate me. And one from Russ Andrews agreeing with everything I said. What this says of the industry or its view of me I will leave open for your interpretation. Apathy rules OK.
What very few people seem to understand is that the so-called cottage side of our industry is to a large extent thriving and a large number of small to medium size companies are exporting like mad. The fact that the restrictive trading practices and pure mismanagement of the retail side of the British Hi-Fi industry has nearly ruined the industry here has forced these companies to do this and in the process they have become an unrecognised British exporting success story. The following is a breakdown of my last years turnover according to country. Please do not consider our position to be unique it probably applies to 80% of UK Hi-Fi companies.
China/Hong Kong 24%
Singapore 5% Taiwan 21%
UK 4% France 12%
Greece 3% Russia 7%
Italy 2% Indonesia 7%
Holland 2% Malaysia 6%
Norway 2%
The remaining 3% split amongst another 7 countries.
When your home market takes only 4% of your turnover you can guess where my priorities lie, though this does give me the freedom to call a spade a spade as I perceive it.
There seems to have been a decision made by a number of leading manufacturers and retailers dating back to the post boom days of the late 1980's that if they were going to have to put up with a receding market place the thing to do was to get a greater share of that smaller market. Hence the poor customer walks into a major retailer these days to be faced with a choice of 4-6 manufactures and these are boringly the same manufactures shop to shop, apart from the valve propeller heads and thank God for them, they are the only spark of originality in the shops today. Well, I would like to say surely it is time for a change, as the recession is no longer with us shouldn't we try to pursue excellence again instead of short term expedience. The whole industry will benefit and the major manufacturers will have to improve their products instead of relying on lack of competition, which must be for the good. In my opinion the like of Bill Hutchinson and Julian Richer in their own very different ways are addressing this and if more independents sat back and took a good look at their businesses and break out of their complacency and looked at who is controlling them, perhaps they will join the battle of expanding the market instead of griping and complaining and acting as new age Luddites.
Richard Dunn
NVA
********************************************
Steve that's because you're an old Luddite and won't accept what large chunks of the population and many Audiophiles have: The iPod Shuffle is comparable with the best CD players in sound quality.
Sound quality does matter and it getting cheaper and more accessible, it's just that some don't want to believe it and others have hi fi systems that aren't able to realise the benefits, or the owners aren't able to recognise good sound when they hear it.
Will you please start your own thread to perpetuate and practice your marketing skills :mental:
Hello everyone,, tentatively.
It's all a bit complex. I'm firmly from the "Peter Walker" school of HiFi, in that the replayed recording should sound like the original event. Others think that the HiFi set should make it sound good according to their personal preferences. It is the latter concept that causes the trouble. If you will excuse me for a moment, I met and spoke with Julian Vereker personally, over the possible purchase of his bicycle company, and I though he was "rubbish" at hifi. His stuff sounded wrong and had awful engineering, particularly the power supplies. He then said he would sell the punters another Power supply which worked a bit better as an "upgrade". I's my personal opinion that that kind of activity is what has damaged the hifi business so badly. No one with experience and education wants the kind of deal Robert describes and is therefore very wary of getting a poor deal from some hifi dealers.
It's important to understand I'm not trying to start an anti-anyones'-'name' stuff as there are several hifi makers guilty of the same practice.
I replaced my HiFi system recently going from Studer-Revox to AVI kit.
I don't feel that Ashley and his company is anything but "one of us" and does not seek to sell a product which is poor vfm with unjustified claims and bullshit. Many people have said it too cheap to be any good, but I have found it to be very well made, and very good vfm, and to give a very good sound.
Others have said they want their hifi to be more "musical" and "involving", but in this digotal age that is a very easy thing to add if desired. What you can't correct are distortions and colourations, and that is where hifi makers should concentrate together with good, reasonably priced engineering.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 18:58
Richard I think the situation is more complex than you imagine. For a start What Hi Fi is very powerful in all this. They gave several awards Cyrus recently and I understand that Cyrus is the big seller of the moment and that others of equal merit are doing far less well. Is PR playing a part in this and are they furthering certain manufacturers' causes?
Then there are discount deals done between retailers and manufacturers where larger ones can extract can obtain colossal discounts and then share it with shop sales staff to "steer them". Is this in part responsible for bloated prices? I think this is an are where customers are becoming suspicious.
Manufacturers cannot dictate to dealers and dealers aren't good salesmen, most hand over what customers ask for, therefore they must create a situation where customers ask for their products. Bose and B & O etc can afford to do this but even the bigger manufacturers advertising, isn't IMO, as powerful as Five Star reviews.
Therefore I think it's a cosy relationship between dealers, manufacturers and press that's sustaining the Status Quo, however, because the market is undergoing fairly dramatic changes at the moment, ones that aren't popular with retailers and certain manufacturers, I think we may see things change.
Specialist hi end dealers are relatively small players compared with certain chains.
BTW Richard, I haven't worked out exactly what it is you wish to place in room 101 ?
It would be nice to know who makes/markets what! :scratch:
Other than Richard = NVA, I haven't got a clue! :confused:
I don't manufacture anything, however I do advise on digital music matters to anyone by fee arangement. it's usually manufacturers, dealers or large organisations like churches, or composers and publishers of music.
I participate on this forum as a hobbyist who is interested in hifi and making my own recordings. I do not seek to tout for business.
I met Ashley James because he is the boss of AVI, the firm I elected to supply my new hifi. I auditioned 20 or 30 brands.
AVI are very hospitable and accommodating to customers. Pretty much anyone who wishes to buy any of their procucts may visit the factory to audition and evaluate the items in friendly conditions and get a good lunch included as well. They may also discuss technical details directly with the product designer as well if they wish. I consider this is exceptionally good service and well worth the effort. It's amuch better way of buying the goods than going to a dealer who is possibly only going to push the old stock that he's stuck with or get you to buy the brand with the biggest markup.
It's a refreshing change to deal with AVI IMO.
I don't manufacture anything, however I do advise on digital music matters to anyone by fee arangement. it's usually manufacturers, dealers or large organisations like churches, or composers and publishers of music.
I participate on this forum as a hobbyist who is interested in hifi and making my own recordings. I do not seek to tout for business.
I met Ashley James because he is the boss of AVI, the firm I elected to supply my new hifi. I auditioned 20 or 30 brands.
AVI are very hospitable and accommodating to customers. Pretty much anyone who wishes to buy any of their procucts may visit the factory to audition and evaluate the items in friendly conditions and get a good lunch included as well. They may also discuss technical details directly with the product designer as well if they wish. I consider this is exceptionally good service and well worth the effort. It's amuch better way of buying the goods than going to a dealer who is possibly only going to push the old stock that he's stuck with or get you to buy the brand with the biggest markup.
It's a refreshing change to deal with AVI IMO.
Thank you for proving my point, hi-jacked by marketing bullshit.
Find anywhere I have refered to any nva product, how it sounds, what amazing good value it is. How its reproduction of music changed my life - bullshit - bullshit - bullshit. This thread is about the very problems you are recreating. Go away with your AVI bullshit, I am not giving you any NVA bullshit. If you wish to contribute to this thread stop talking about product. The point is not product it is music and why large elements of this industry is stopping individuals finding what they want. Who the hell do you think you are telling them what to want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You and Ashley work as a team I have watched you at work at other forums, *I* do not want to be part of it. I couldn't give a toss how good or bad AVI is, you made your decision so live with it, don't foist it on me.
What is going on here is *exactly* what I am talking about, you two have paid yer £50 at the other forums so you have your bullshit freedom, but not in this thread.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 20:16
Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.
I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.
I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would not be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.
Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can't, I'm too smal,l just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.
Richard I think the situation is more complex than you imagine. For a start What Hi Fi is very powerful in all this. They gave several awards Cyrus recently and I understand that Cyrus is the big seller of the moment and that others of equal merit are doing far less well. Is PR playing a part in this and are they furthering certain manufacturers' causes?
Then there are discount deals done between retailers and manufacturers where larger ones can extract can obtain colossal discounts and then share it with shop sales staff to "steer them". Is this in part responsible for bloated prices? I think this is an are where customers are becoming suspicious.
Manufacturers cannot dictate to dealers and dealers aren't good salesmen, most hand over what customers ask for, therefore they must create a situation where customers ask for their products. Bose and B & O etc can afford to do this but even the bigger manufacturers advertising, isn't IMO, as powerful as Five Star reviews.
Therefore I think it's a cosy relationship between dealers, manufacturers and press that's sustaining the Status Quo, however, because the market is undergoing fairly dramatic changes at the moment, ones that aren't popular with retailers and certain manufacturers, I think we may see things change.
Specialist hi end dealers are relatively small players compared with certain chains.
I wish you would read the thread, those points have been covered. Magazines are part of the mafia. It is a triumvirate - manufacturer - magazine - retailer. All looking for the easy way to fill the trough. In the past because of what I have talked about in this thread it was extremely expensive or next to impossible to break into, and you have to agree to abide by the rules otherwise you will be killed. So why are they now running scared, well because the tables are turned the power is now moving to the customer, the enthusiast. It is all in the thread if you read it. AND the mafia is running scared, so the usual way is to corrupt those that come in like the forum owners, make them want to become part of the trough slurping, a fourth element. So has it been throughout history and so it will be unless *the person* - *the individual* stands up for himself in numbers. Democracy has always been a bullshit delusion, the constituency sheep to bleet and then be castrated. The web is wonderfull, it is a new and burgioning freedom in all areas, if people understand and create *weight*.
Also you are talking about mainstream, I am not, I am talking about the specialist market, the so called high end market. The enthusiast, the wally, the geek, the salt of the earth, what ever you want to call them. They have been taken for fools, now they have a chance to change it.
Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.
I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.
I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.
Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can, I'm too small just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.
Others do it so that makes it right. Sorry wrong. In the early days this industry was its enthusiast not the marketing men. Now you think you have taken it over so you can't even see the wood for the trees, you are so full of it you don't even see the contridictions in what you are saying. All the time those with eyes open are judging. One of the greatest skills of the marketer is to get others to do it for you. All ready refered to in past posts as the amateur marketers, doing your work for you for free - mugs!
There are only two things that are important 1 people who design and create product 2 people who use product - *EVERYTHING ELSE* and *EVERYONE ELSE* is an overhead, an on-cost, something that has to justify its slurp. People will decide not me if you have earned it and they are willing to pay hard earned cash (in this case) *over* 70% of the price they pay for the privilege of supporting a feast of hangers on.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 20:41
I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.
I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.
Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.
I'm sorry Richard, I have no Idea what you are talking about. What is NVA ? and what's it got to do with HiFi ? , I've never heard of it .
My post was in direct reply to Shian7 who said he didn't know who was what. I simply explained my own position and none of it was bullshit.
You seem very cross about something but I don't know what it is.
As far as teams are concerned I would rather choose my hifi from a supplier that I had confidence in, and who would help me when necessary, and I would be prepared to endorse his product on that basis. That's all there is to it.
As far as overhead is concerned, every well run business has "overhead" and to think that all customers should deal only with an assembly worker is naive in the extreme. I certainly couldn't run my business that way and I don't know any other successful person who could, except maybe plumbers and back street garage mechanics.
I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.
I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.
Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.
You really are in gobble-de-gook land. Each of the people you mention did not design product for customers, they designed it for themselves, because they were in reality architype customers themselves. People who create products for markets are in delusion and that is when the companies become run by accountants and marketing directors. AND that curruption seems to be the fate of all companies as they outgrow the desire and character of the founder.
Of course the guy who is an enthusiast and a customer at heart does things wrong, that is the beauty of it. That is why Beresford makes a new dac every week, he is driven by the desire to improve it *for him*. Customers are the thing that makes it possible for him to fullfill his dream. Then the corruption comes, he hires an accountant because he has staff and overheads and a government and a council to satisfy. Then he finds that sales need management so in comes the professional marketing man. Bang out the window goes the very reason he started in the first place. So he sells the company and makes enough money to live on comfortably from it and keeps his hobby to himself as he has learned a lesson. And what happens, corporate think and behaviour lives off his reputation for a while and then they **** it up. If the start up guy happens to be marketing or money man in the first place then we get the corruptions I have been talking about so much, he is just using the man with the skill and art of product, who then maybe drinks himself to death when he realises how he has been ripped off, to use the example of one famous case.
I repeat for an enthusiast market, which believe it or not high end hi-fi is, the only thing that is important is an enthusiast creating a product and another enthusiast using that product.
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 21:26
Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.
Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.
What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.
It would be nice to know who makes/markets what! :scratch:
Other than Richard = NVA, I haven't got a clue! :confused:
That is the problem Mike, you don't even know who is trying to brainwash you.
A bit extreme, but the subliminal arts are taught in marketing school and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) is even sold now as a new age health art :scratch:
Steve Toy
16-03-2008, 21:33
Good post Richard. As it happens, tomorrow I am off to South Wales to see Anthony about valve amplification on a small scale reproducing beautiful music.
Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.
Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.
What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.
*My* market will contract into what it should be, what it was and what it should have stayed. The rest will go into Ipods and other gobble-de-gook. The enthusiast will have his valves, his good solid state, his record decks, his DACs and transports, his cables and cones etc - HIS FUN!! and HIS HOBBY!! and by far the most important HIS MUSIC!!
Hopefully the market will split so we don't have to put up with the likes of this *discussion* ever again, we can but hope!
Ashley James
16-03-2008, 21:52
Some years ago the audience for Radio 3 dropped to about 25,000 a day. Listeners regularly wrote complimentary letters if the same formula continued, but the slightest change to anything produced howls of protest from what were actually angry intransigent bigots.
Market research was done and the conclusion drawn was that, in order to grow the audience to more reasonable levels, programs would have to change, which would inevitably upset the present lot. There would be a period when listener levels would drop and but it would recover and increase as a broader, more representative and more desirable listener tuned in.
The object lesson was that small or niche groups become increasingly narrow and intransigent and difficult to satisfy without alienating a wider and more representative section of the population. Small niche groups aren't even good for their members and are certainly not producers of new, interesting or creative ideas. They want things to remain as they are.
I'm afraid you're a bigot looking for a World of Bigots and I hope we don't get one.
Mike Reed
16-03-2008, 22:05
I empathise with J C BRUM. What on Earth are you ranting about, Richard?
You most certainly seem to have a (silicon?) chip on your shoulder, but I'm mystified about what it is you're grinding the axe for. Maybe it's your phraseology, or syntax, or other aspects of grammar which preclude me from following your apparently sweeping polemic about the hifi industry in general.
I've read so many threads from people criticising the 'rip-off merchants' in audio manufacturing/retailing; these either relating to exorbitant mark-ups, component cost to price-ticket ratios or simply servicing costs (no Naims mentioned). The phrase 'caveat emptor' seems conspicuous by its absence in these diatribes.
Surely this censure of the audio industry can equally apply to many other fields; for example the motor industry, the jewellery business, et al.
Of far greater significance is the unfolding financial hiatus that threatens to negatively influence all these and many other aspects of earning a living, in my opinion.
Back to my Pye Black Box and small world!
I think I prefer to stay a cynic. It's more practical, and makes a better use of experience.
Have you really got a PBB Mike ? (delete=Richard)
Some years ago the audience for Radio 3 dropped to about 25,000 a day. Listeners regularly wrote complimentary letters if the same formula continued, but the slightest change to anything produced howls of protest from what were actually angry intransigent bigots.
Market research was done and the conclusion drawn was that, in order to grow the audience to more reasonable levels, programs would have to change, which would inevitably upset the present lot. There would be a period when listener levels would drop and but it would recover and increase as a broader, more representative and more desirable listener tuned in.
The object lesson was that small or niche groups become increasingly narrow and intransigent and difficult to satisfy without alienating a wider and more representative section of the population. Small niche groups aren't even good for their members and are certainly not producers of new, interesting or creative ideas. They want things to remain as they are.
I'm afraid you're a bigot looking for a World of Bigots and I hope we don't get one.
You see wrong idea, wrong concept, a marketing mans view on the world. "Unless you grow you die" "Quantity before quality" - tesco tomatoes v the ones my wife grow in her greenhouse. Radio 3 is now a business, it should have stayed a service. I am not in the slightest bit interested in seeing my audience grow unless it is because they find their way *up* to it, DEFINITELY not by me lowering my standards to meet them. The lowest common denominator is always the province of the marketing man as he always wants more. It is why the world is in the state that it is in. What the hell is wrong with wanting less, if that less means more quality. Less people, less raping the planet, less polution, less politics, less marketing, more quality v quantity, more satisfaction, more understanding, more reality. Keep living your marketing mans dreams and delusions Ashley, in the end you just might rule the world and grow to encompass everything. Me I am happy with what I am given.
Richard. We live in a capitalist economy, with a democratic (?) government.
You seem to be some sort of elitist communist with champagne tastes and a beer budget.
I don't think you can survive economically without making an unreasonable charge for your services, possibly more than they are worth when compared to alternatives.
Most of us live in the real world, and live by the principles we can afford.
I empathise with J C BRUM. What on Earth are you ranting about, Richard?
You most certainly seem to have a (silicon?) chip on your shoulder, but I'm mystified about what it is you're grinding the axe for. Maybe it's your phraseology, or syntax, or other aspects of grammar which preclude me from following your apparently sweeping polemic about the hifi industry in general.
I've read so many threads from people criticising the 'rip-off merchants' in audio manufacturing/retailing; these either relating to exorbitant mark-ups, component cost to price-ticket ratios or simply servicing costs (no Naims mentioned). The phrase 'caveat emptor' seems conspicuous by its absence in these diatribes.
Surely this censure of the audio industry can equally apply to many other fields; for example the motor industry, the jewellery business, et al.
Of far greater significance is the unfolding financial hiatus that threatens to negatively influence all these and many other aspects of earning a living, in my opinion.
Back to my Pye Black Box and small world!
This is *my* room 101, I can rant and rave about what I want (within the rules of the playground monitor). If you want your own room start your own thread, I didn't ask you to come in and play, you made your own decision.
It doesn't *have* to make sense to you, you know. In fact I am quite pleased if it doesn't because for the audience I seek it does, syntax, spelling or not, it is all largely irrelevent and a factor of time more than anything else.
So start your own one and I will visit and have a prod :lolsign:
Richard. We live in a capitalist economy, with a democratic (?) government.
You seem to be some sort of elitist communist with champagne tastes and a beer budget.
I don't think you can survive economically without making an unreasonable charge for your services, possibly more than they are worth when compared to alternatives.
Most of us live in the real world, and live by the principles we can afford.
Ah! the discussion ends and the veiled insults begin, the last resort of the fool who has nothing intelligent to say - ad hominem!
I am not elitist, I am quality-ist. I am not communist but I believe in sharing above using. I hate Champagne, to me it is fizzy crap. Reasonable is as reasonable does.
I challenge anyone here to publish their cost v end price.
I will go first just for the fun of it :-
A30 power amp for example - I will round up and down to nearest £
Case £24
PCB (built) £56
Transformer £11
PSU caps and rectification £4
Sockets and cabling and sundries £7
Packing materials £7
Ebay and Paypal cost per sale £11
Total £120
Sale price at ebay £300
So direct costs represent 40% of price.
Normal high end market mark up (normally calculated as times 12) would be to £1200. Now taking into account the economies of scale of larger manufacturer this would still mean about £7-800. If costed the way *certain* manufacturers do that would be well over £1200.
This is not meant to blow my trumpet but to put figures onto my argument. I am not in business to give leaches and hangers-on a living, they can go and find their own.
That is the problem Mike, you don't even know who is trying to brainwash you.
A bit extreme, but the subliminal arts are taught in marketing school and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) is even sold now as a new age health art :scratch:
Hmmm ..... Think I'll stick to building kits/DIY whenever I can!
Seems to be a shorter 'food chain' that way. :exactly:
Hmmm ..... Think I'll stick to building kits/DIY whenever I can!
Seems to be a shorter 'food chain' that way. :exactly:
Quite definitely, that is how the industry started, it is how I started. It all came about because of the post war government surplus in electronic components. Old bomber radar sets that could be converted into a tele. Green screen :scratch: but part of the fun. Designers didn't design for finished products they designed for the home builder, like Williamson. As people got more money the market started to get more sofisticated, shops appeared with suited salemen selling Leak and Quad valve amps. Everything was fixed price no one sold anything discount, manufacturers went through wholesellers and wholesellers supplied retailers. Retail price maintenance was part of the system. That ended mid 60's, POP happened, then Rock happened etc, discounters appeared and the market took off. G.W.Smith and co, Laskys, Henry's etc all the old Guv surplus guys jumped on it, but not very professionally, so Comet appeared and finished a lot of them off. Cheap gear for the maases appeared from the likes of Amstrad, who started by building a plinth and plastic cover for the Garrard SP25s. Cheap amps, and even kits kept on going with Sinclair amps. I know I sold them all.
I then went to work for Acoustic Research and discovered the wonderfull world of marketing, being marketing manager for Teac and Tascam they were importing, so believe me I have had first hand knowledge of the lies and bullshit process. But you know what Jesus said :) give me your repentant sinner :lol:
As this thread has been about, the wheel has turned, we are nearly back full circle. A receeding market going back to its roots, enthusiasts - even some who can use a soldering iron. Geeks with solder burns in their trousers :lolsign:
Good stuff here, chaps.
I'm not taking sides, or commenting on anything that's been written (yet), but just to let everyone know that this is Richard 'ranting room', so he's in charge and can discuss pretty much any subject he likes. Comments are welcome from everyone, though.
Keep it civil and don't abuse the privilege that's been given. I will intervene and take action if I see any personal insults being traded! ;)
Let's keep arguments centred solely on the subject matter (hi-fi or whatever).
Marco.
Ah! the discussion ends and the veiled insults begin,
the last resort of the fool who has nothing intelligent to say - ad hominem!
Well, I considered my remark to be "fair comment".
It isn't my last resort.
I don't have any problem with intelligence in most circumstances.
I looked at your ebay-trader website.
I would not consider a 30 watt amp to be usable because of the clipping problem on peaks. I would consider 100w to be ok and 200w adequate.
On such equipment as this you seem to be more expensive than Ashley's co, and his kit is better made and looks nicer. That's why I bought it.
Also he's not grumpy, and buy's your lunch. I don't mind if the price of that goes on the product, I think it's a very pleasant and informative day out at the AVI factory.
Do you offer the same facilities ?
Quite definitely, that is how the industry started, it is how I started. It all came about because of the post war government surplus in electronic components. Old bomber radar sets that could be converted into a tele. Green screen :scratch: but part of the fun. Designers didn't design for finished products they designed for the home builder, like Williamson. As people got more money the market started to get more sofisticated, shops appeared with suited salemen selling Leak and Quad valve amps. Everything was fixed price no one sold anything discount, manufacturers went through wholesellers and wholesellers supplied retailers. Retail price maintenance was part of the system. That ended mid 60's, POP happened, then Rock happened etc, discounters appeared and the market took off. G.W.Smith and co, Laskys, Henry's etc all the old Guv surplus guys jumped on it, but not very professionally, so Comet appeared and finished a lot of them off. Cheap gear for the maases appeared from the likes of Amstrad, who started by building a plinth and plastic cover for the Garrard SP25s. Cheap amps, and even kits kept on going with Sinclair amps. I know I sold them all.
I then went to work for Acoustic Research and discovered the wonderfull world of marketing, being marketing manager for Teac and Tascam they were importing, so believe me I have had first hand knowledge of the lies and bullshit process. But you know what Jesus said :) give me your repentant sinner :lol:
As this thread has been about, the wheel has turned, we are nearly back full circle. A receeding market going back to its roots, enthusiasts - even some who can use a soldering iron. Geeks with solder burns in their trousers :lolsign:
Much of this is a good attempt at compressing hifi evolution into a few sentences.
It does not however properly hi-light the importance of stuff like Quad, particularly ESL's, which were far from the realms of the home constructor, or the products of Studer-Revox with their superbly engineered machines.
I for one prefer a highly developed, sophisticated product like the ADM9 active loudspeaker/DAC, which could not possibly be made or set up by a home constructor. It is incredibly good value for money. You only need a laptop and ADM9's for a complete hifi system with incredibly high performance, and all for £1000, inc lunch.
Evolution leads to sophistication you know.
Well, I considered my remark to be "fair comment".
It isn't my last resort.
I don't have any problem with intelligence in most circumstances.
I looked at your ebay-trader website.
I would not consider a 30 watt amp to be usable because of the clipping problem on peaks. I would consider 100w to be ok and 200w adequate.
On such equipment as this you seem to be more expensive than Ashley's co, and his kit is better made and looks nicer. That's why I bought it.
Also he's not grumpy, and buy's your lunch. I don't mind if the price of that goes on the product, I think it's a very pleasant and informative day out at the AVI factory.
Do you offer the same facilities ?
Bullshit bullshit bullit, AVI - Boxes - Better - Me, Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
This is all you have got, where is the principle of this discussion Mr Amateur marketing man. It all has to change to you and how clever you are to make such tastefull and astute choices.
Much of this is a good attempt at compressing hifi evolution into a few sentences.
It does not however properly hi-light the importance of stuff like Quad, particularly ESL's, which were far from the realms of the home constructor, or the products of Studer-Revox with their superbly engineered machines.
I for one prefer a highly developed, sophisticated product like the ADM9 active loudspeaker/DAC, which could not possibly be made or set up by a home constructor. It is incredibly good value for money. You only need a laptop and ADM9's for a complete hifi system with incredibly high performance, and all for £1000, inc lunch.
Evolution leads to sophistication you know.
Will you please piss off with your AVI bullshit, you are worse than Ashley, or perhaps you want his job. If I start compaining about my breakfast (it is my ranting room as you have been told) would you say it is because I don't own AVI. This is just pathetic and you are making a fool of yourself.
I suppose I might be worse than Ashley, but I think you are being unfair in (politely) asking me to piss off. You do post on a "forum" which presumably indicates you invite response and debate ?
I don't want Ashley's or anyones job, I have enough to keep me occupied thanks.
Just because it's your ranting room doesn't magically transform a rant into common sense, or even good advice. it's just that - a rant, probably spontaneous, emotional, and illogical nonsense.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I've made a fool of myself in better places than this !
As for pathetic, it seems to be sorting you out a bit !
p.s. since when has talking about Quad esl's and Revox stuff, been AVI bullshit ?
I suppose I might be worse than Ashley, but I think you are being unfair in (politely) asking me to piss off. You do post on a "forum" which presumably indicates you invite response and debate ?
I don't want Ashley's or anyones job, I have enough to keep me occupied thanks.
Just because it's your ranting room doesn't magically transform a rant into common sense, or even good advice. it's just that - a rant, probably spontaneous, emotional, and illogical nonsense.
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, I've made a fool of myself in better places than this !
As for pathetic, it seems to be sorting you out a bit !
Blah blah blah blah
Look at me, look how clever I am, I am better than you, look how competitive I am, I am beating you, look at how I have turned this discussion into me and you and I am winning, look at how I can put my marketing into every post AVI AVI AVI AVI AVI AVI there you are I will do it for you.
Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ranting is fun and good therapy. In China they have made it into a business a way to work out your aggression, bars where you can pay to throw old China at a picture of your boss :lolsign:
You and Ashley have tried your best (working as a team per usual) to change this thread to your purposes, well success is relative and failure normally creeps up to bite yer bum when you least expect it. It is all just yin and yang.
I think you were the one going on about AVI, I was talking about Quad and Revox, obviously you consider them to be out of your league as well ?
I expect for a budget buy your customers will accept the concept of "separates" and "legacy products", but many will prefer a more "developed" solution, and less of a "yesteryear" product.
I bet your amp doesn't even have an iPod dock ?
I think you were the one going on about AVI, I was talking about Quad and Revox, obviously you consider them to be out of your league as well ?
I expect for a budget buy your customers will accept the concept of "separates" and "legacy products", but many will prefer a more "developed" solution, and less of a "yesteryear" product.
I bet your amp doesn't even have an iPod dock ?
Un - bloody - believable :mental::mental::mental:
You don't see it do you, I am shouting at a brick wall, nothing goes in.
Un - bloody - believable :mental::mental::mental:
You don't see it do you, I am shouting at a brick wall, nothing goes in.
OK I should have done this a couple of pages ago.
If you are into the modern computer based concepts of audio then please buy AVI - do not even consider listening to NVA, it is not in the same league, do not waste your time.
AVI wishes to grow and become a big company and its design and marketing for perceived niche in the *market* means it deserves success and your support.
NVA does not wish to compete with AVI in any way and it humbly submits to an obvious superiority.
How can a pedantic old git with a soldering iron and solder blobs on his troosers possibly compete with that. Well obviously it cannot. I am happy just being me, staying small and building amps and cables for people who ask me to on ebay. That is the only reason I started again, I didn't want to! I make a perfectly good living teaching Qigong and Tai-Chi Chuan. I hate this industry and its delusional bullshit and I don't want to be part of it. I teach in th evening so I have time during the day to build things I want to in order to listen to music the way I want to. If you are stupid enough to buy them so be it!
Now can this thread *please* go back to a good old entertaining rant.
signed
Grumpy Old Git.
Have a look at my post about buying a sub-woofer last week. I expect your 80w + amps would be ok with that, providing they don't clip and distort and blow up the speakers like cyrus stuff does.
I heartily agree that HiFi mags haven't got a clue and need more of a "solder blobs on the trouser" understanding.
Richard,
I can give you moderator rights just for this room, if you like. Then you're really in charge! ;)
Would you like that?
Marco [giggles mischeviously]
If he banned me he wouldn't have anyone else to talk to !
I'm going back to my own thread, I'm taking my rant with me too !
Where's the smilies gone ? you can never find anything when you want it ! D'ohh.
LOL. I wouldn't give him the rights to ban anyone, just move, delete, and edit posts. That alone could be tons of fun, though!
Why not have your own room just like this one? Then Richard could 'invade' yours... :eyebrows:
Richard,
With regard to semolina, when was the last time you ate it? Your taste buds might have changed! ;)
Marco (who's not eaten semolina since he was about 4).
LOL. I wouldn't give him the rights to ban anyone, just move, delete, and edit posts. That alone could be tons of fun, though!
Why not have your own room just like this one? Then Richard could 'invade' yours... :eyebrows:
Richard,
With regard to semolina, when was the last time you ate it? Your taste buds might have changed! ;)
Marco (who's not eaten semolina since he was about 4).
AHH!
but in many ways I am still 4 :lol:
Responsibility no thanks, just get on with what we pay you for young sprog :eyebrows:
I bet your amp doesn't even have an iPod dock ?
Nor does mine...... And it never will either!!!
Poxy little things!
:guns:
Well, that may be true, but have you ever tried one ?
Well, that may be true, but have you ever tried one ?
Have you ever tried sticking your head in a gas oven and striking a match to find the leak.
Mike Reed
17-03-2008, 16:49
Have you really got a PBB Mike ? (delete=Richard)
No, I'm afraid not; that was just Pye in the sky. Do have a few black boxes, though!
RICHARD I yield to your ranting expertise and respect your private little chamber, as I do your designer and manufacturing reputation. Must investigate your phono stage to see if it would be compatible with a Koetsu I hope to buy soon.
BUGGER; meant to post this in Room 102; trespassing again!!
No, I'm afraid not; that was just Pye in the sky. Do have a few black boxes, though!
RICHARD I yield to your ranting expertise and respect your private little chamber, as I do your designer and manufacturing reputation. Must investigate your phono stage to see if it would be compatible with a Koetsu I hope to buy soon.
BUGGER; meant to post this in Room 102; trespassing again!!
You are welcome here any time Mike, just wipe your feet before you enter.
Mike's apparently "gorn orf". I was going to say many people don't realise that an iPod is only a device to carry away a "portion" of your music collection, for portable consumption. It is not a hifi source as such.
An iPod got it's tunes from the computer which holds the music in a digital library.
There is no difference in storing your music this way, or on a compact disc.
Other than of course the computer can be used to replay the music, thus making CD players totally redundant .
They sound better than cdp's too.
Oh, You're back. The posts crossed.
What have gas ovens with leaks got to do with iPods, or is that just a friendly riposte ?
Jeeeesus!! this is about as much fun as having crabs take over your testicles.
I know what I would like to do with his ipod port :eyebrows:
I know what I would like to do with his ipod port :eyebrows:
Put a nice little flower in it?
Put a nice little flower in it?
:guitar: All together now - "We're all going to San Francisco, put a little flower in your hair" Peace and Love man :drugs:
Ashley James
17-03-2008, 17:36
The simple and depressing fact (for Hi Fi Luddites/flat earthers or whatever they are know as) is that iPods are probably the only thing keeping what's left of hi fi alive - even Krell have bought out an iPod Dock and B & W's Zeppelin is Sevenoaks best seller!
Ipods and some Apple computers compare favourably with some very expensive CD players, which is one reason why nearly 120 million iPods have sold, however many prefer to ditch it and unite the computer, the TV and the Hi Fi. They use iTunes instead and it's User Interface is much better. CD mech production has almost ceased and CD players will not be made much longer, so it's not surprising that they are being replaced by computers.
Not wishing to side with anyone here, but as I discussed with Gromit earlier in another thread, there's never been as many quality turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono stages available as there is now, even in the heyday of the 70s and 80s, and at affordable prices.
That wouldn't be the case if the hi-end 2-channel hi-fi industry (and that's all I'm interested in) was in as bad a state as Ashley makes out... ;)
Ipods are great things - when used in the right context. I certainly wouldn't swap my Sony X777ES/DAS-R1 or my KAB-modified Technics SL-1210 for one though!
Marco.
Ashley James
17-03-2008, 19:05
Marco I'm sure you're right and equally sure it's in a declining market. In truth, beyond figures that are easy to find like the amount of business done by the big players, it's hard to know how much is selling. What is true is that most suppliers we deal with tell us that they get very little of their business from UK hi fi companies now, but that could be because everyone's buying from China. Everyone seems to say things have been bad for a couple of years or so but I've no idea for who, all I see is steady contraction of whole Industry.
And just as you can old valve radios (Mart has a huge collection and even uses WWII transeivers for Ham radio) or gas lights, so you'll always be able to buy old audio gear as favoured on this and other Forums.
Marco I'm sure you're right and equally sure it's in a declining market. In truth, beyond figures that are easy to find like the amount of business done by the big players, it's hard to know how much is selling. What is true is that most suppliers we deal with tell us that they get very little of their business from UK hi fi companies now, but that could be because everyone's buying from China. Everyone seems to say things have been bad for a couple of years or so but I've no idea for who, all I see is steady contraction of whole Industry.
And just as you can old valve radios (Mart has a huge collection and even uses WWII transeivers for Ham radio) or gas lights, so you'll always be able to buy old audio gear as favoured on this and other Forums.
Ashley I used to think you were just a marketing man so should have some sympathy, your Laural and Hardy act with Jesus Christ from Birmingham was at least amusing if very irritating, but what with this and the cable posts it is obvious you are a complete idiot.
The sooner a lot of these people and companies go bust the better. Good for the Chinese they are now creating a *reality* shock for the system. Good for ebay, look at how second hand prices will tumble especially the idiots who pay fortunes for second hand Naims. Cheap Hi-Fi is going to be the bonus over the next couple of recession years, second hand or new. No longer survival of the fittest, but survival of the leanest. AND what will be the major advantage of this, well with luck the marketing men will be first sacked, they were always an unnecessary polution.
Chris Frost
17-03-2008, 23:46
Case £24
PCB (built) £56
Transformer £11
PSU caps and rectification £4
Sockets and cabling and sundries £7
Packing materials £7
Ebay and Paypal cost per sale £11
Total £120
Sale price at ebay £300
Wow! £180 profit on each sale. I wish I could make that sort of markup.
Don't be daft his profit is nowhere near £180, in fact he's probably making a loss and subsidizing his losses with a part-time job.
'Course he does. Didn't you know that Richard is a male stripper and provides much entertainment for the local nursing homes :eyebrows:
Earns a fortune so he does!
Marco.
Don't be daft his profit is nowhere near £180, in fact he's probably making a loss and subsidizing his losses with a part-time job.
So the second idiot in the double act appears again.
Seeing as you insist on correct facts as so often spouted in the cable thread, please show me the facts which caused you to come to that conclusion.
Ding Ding!!!
Round, whatever! :lolsign:
Bring on the monkeys and exploding clown cars!... HONK HONK!
Gross salary, say 4k per month,- rent, heat, light, water, and rates, say 1k, - plant and equipment renewal and transport say 300pm,
Thats a total of £63k pa. / £180 = 350 units pa sold just to break even ! No chance !
That's more than one sale a day for every working day of the year without fail ! 2 a day shows a good profit. 1 a week is a horrendous loss.
There's no way that NVA is much more than an expensive hobby, but there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't expect to operate to the same standards as a real manufacturer.
If it's a livelihood you're looking for, look elsewhere Chris, but I expect Richard knows all this.
I really am going to bed. night night.
Wow! £180 profit on each sale. I wish I could make that sort of markup.
Luvverly money for designing making packing selling in fact everything.
Not just sitting on my arse waiting for a mug with more money than sense to walk through the door.
Have a happy recession :ner:
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 00:37
Luvverly money for designing making packing selling in fact everything.
Not just sitting on my arse waiting for a mug with more money than sense to walk through the door.
Have a happy recession :ner:
Is that directed at me?
Gross salary, say 4k per month,- rent, heat, light, water, and rates, say 1k, - plant and equipment renewal and transport say 300pm,
Thats a total of £63k pa. / £180 = 350 units pa sold just to break even ! No chance !
That's more than one sale a day for every working day of the year without fail ! 2 a day shows a good profit. 1 a week is a horrendous loss.
There's no way that NVA is much more than an expensive hobby, but there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't expect to operate to the same standards as a real manufacturer.
If it's a livelihood you're looking for, look elsewhere Chris, but I expect Richard knows all this.
This is not a company, I do not pay myself a salary.
My living is my business and I am very happy with it. I work when I want, I play when I want. I have no debts, I pay for everything upfront, I owe no one and no one owes me. I am sitting on about £20k of component stocks and suppliers are bending over backwards to supply me. I work from home (with all the relevent permissions). I roll out of bed when I want, I work until I don't want to. My other job is a pleasure I would do even if I paid for the privilege and pleasure to do it.
My life couldn't be better apart from I have to move into a bigger house as I need more storage in order to relaunch the Statement Range and Cube and Cubix loudspeaker designs. Also sometime this summer I will have re-register for VAT which is something I didn't want to do, but I am right on the limit now, that is a pain in the arse and will put 17.5% on the price straight away.
I am so fit to weather this recession it is perfect. WHY mainly because I don't have retailers paying me late, if at all. I have the right potential customers and the right price. Plus I don't care how many sales happen, I don't have to chase them, I don't have to market myself.
Lets see who is still with us when this recession has run its course. Not many I will be bound, a good process, and natural selection will take its course in this process and no amount of marketing, amateur or professional, will stop the grim reaper taking his toll.
'Course he does. Didn't you know that Richard is a male stripper and provides much entertainment for the local nursing homes :eyebrows:
Earns a fortune so he does!
Marco.
If someone would pay to see me take my clothes off they have a serious taste problem.
Ding Ding!!!
Round, whatever! :lolsign:
Bring on the monkeys and exploding clown cars!... HONK HONK!
I say I say I say, my dog has no nose
Really how does he smell?
Like a hi-fi retailer / marketing mans armpit at the start of a recession :lol::lol::lol::lolsign::ner::ner:
Feel the fear.
You see wrong idea, wrong concept, a marketing mans view on the world. "Unless you grow you die" "Quantity before quality" - tesco tomatoes v the ones my wife grow in her greenhouse. Radio 3 is now a business, it should have stayed a service. I am not in the slightest bit interested in seeing my audience grow unless it is because they find their way *up* to it, DEFINITELY not by me lowering my standards to meet them. The lowest common denominator is always the province of the marketing man as he always wants more. It is why the world is in the state that it is in. What the hell is wrong with wanting less, if that less means more quality. Less people, less raping the planet, less polution, less politics, less marketing, more quality v quantity, more satisfaction, more understanding, more reality. Keep living your marketing mans dreams and delusions Ashley, in the end you just might rule the world and grow to encompass everything. Me I am happy with what I am given.
Excellent post, thank you. I like "quality-ist" too, superb :)
Ashley James
18-03-2008, 11:19
Richard - I think your argument is absurd as proved by Henry Ford in the desert in WWI. His model T's were just as reliable as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts, at their peak, Ford were making nearly as many in a day as their entire production too.
The idea of small volume production meaning better quality is arrant nonsense, Human Beings make mistakes, computer based assembly systems don't and are far more accurate.
The British Watch and Clock Industry was put out of business by the Americans and the Swiss too, because they failed to adopt volume production techniques that lowered the price and improved performance and reliability.
Pride comes from doing a proper job at a proper price and having real customer satisfaction and a verging on zero failure rate!
I love and admire craft skills, I even consult to several small engineering companies restoring Rolls-Royce and other valuable cars, but this is the past and it's rewarding in its own way, however one thing that it teaches me is that modern methods and the latest technology are best.
Richard - I think your argument is absurd as proved by Henry Ford in the desert in WWI. His model T's were just as reliable as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts, at their peak, Ford were making nearly as many in a day as their entire production too.
The idea of small volume production meaning better quality is arrant nonsense, Human Beings make mistakes, computer based assembly systems don't and are far more accurate.
The British Watch and Clock Industry was put out of business by the Americans and the Swiss too, because they failed to adopt volume production techniques that lowered the price and improved performance and reliability.
Pride comes from doing a proper job at a proper price and having real customer satisfaction and a verging on zero failure rate!
I love and admire craft skills, I even consult to several small engineering companies restoring Rolls-Royce and other valuable cars, but this is the past and it's rewarding in its own way, however one thing that it teaches me is that modern methods and the latest technology are best.
I don't know why I bother it is a complete waste of time as you are just stuck in marketing speak. The Dinosaur who doesn't realise he is on the verge of extinction. The world is changing, you just haven't noticed yet. Everything is in place for the changes, Henry Ford and the USA in general has *had* its time. All it needs is the catalyst and it looks like it has arrived and appropriately on the back of and caused by US marketing speak in selling *concepts* and things that don't exist. Fundementals never change and bubbles always burst. The US housing sub prime market has pricked the bubble, the powers that be are fighting like mad to slow down its deflation. BUT like the Dutch kid with his finger in the Dyke the natural realm of reality will not be held back.
Who has caused it, fanancial markets marketing men, finding new delusions to foist on people. You are a dying breed Ashley start thinking of finding new skills. Growing real tomatoes in small quantity, that could be a way, enjoying them, and not looking for a way of marketing them into more sales, bigger profits, greater turnover, bigger marketing meetings and lunches, and more bullshit bullshit bullshit.
Bye bye dinosaur, I wish I could say it has been good talking to you.
Har Har Har, you mean like David Hembrow changing from a software person to a wicker basket maker, oh yeah sure, wotevvah, ammabovvered, lookamma faice, innitt !
When the chips are down about .0000001% can afford a £50 wicker basket, everyone else will buy a £2 polybin.
What modern hifi is about is excellent sound from downloads and cd's.
A Mac laptop and (good quality) digital active speakers is all you need.
Everything else is obsolete junk. (except TT's)
It's like when electronic calculators replaced slide rules, and I should think there's more demand world wide for gas-mantles than valve-amps.
Here's a free ad for you David.
Best wishes and good luck, we need all sorts, JC.
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/eo.html
Har Har Har, you mean like David Hembrow changing from a software person to a wicker basket maker, oh yeah sure, wotevvah, ammabovvered, lookamma faice, innitt !
When the chips are down about .0000001% can afford a £50 wicker basket, everyone else will buy a £2 polybin.
What modern hifi is about is excellent sound from downloads and cd's.
A Mac laptop and (good quality) digital active speakers is all you need.
Everything else is obsolete junk. (except TT's)
It's like when electronic calculators replaced slide rules, and I should think there's more demand world wide for gas-mantles than valve-amps.
Your talking bollocks per usual - the other half of the clown double act. NO RETAILERS - NO MARKETING MEN means better quality (cos you can afford to add extra) AND lower price.
Watch when Nokia and Apple etc go completely on line and cut all you hangers on out of your slurp. Prices will drop because of having to survive a recession.
Here's a free ad for you David.
Best wishes and good luck, we need all sorts, JC.
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/eo.html
Who is David? now you are even getting your threads mixed up - matches your muddled thinking perfectly.
Steve Toy
18-03-2008, 13:57
I've moved this thread to the Blank Canvass where it deserves to be. We can have two Richard threads - a room 101 for non-hi-fi rants and a room 102 for this.
Richard, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you write. :)
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 14:07
NO RETAILERS - NO MARKETING MEN means better quality (cos you can afford to add extra) AND lower price.Then how do people find out about product? This goes for the wider world of electronics as well as HiFi.
Then how do people find out about product? This goes for the wider world of electronics as well as HiFi.
The web - forums - face book type things and community - you ain't seen nothing yet. In 10 years the world is a different place - shops are for cafes, restaurants and estate agents. AND hopefully not eatate agents. Tesco is starting to sell houses for you on line!!!!!!
pure sound
18-03-2008, 15:04
How can I have only just discovered this thread?
Splendid stuff! Keep up the excellent work Richard.
JCB & Ashley, you just don't get it do you? :)
Richard,
Have you considered a career in Politics?
Some good points in there too.
Ashley and Jcb, sort of head/sand syndrome going on there!
Tut tut, whats wrong with you all?
AVI is the only game in town you know. The iPod and all it's associated excellent add-ons and sycophants will rule the world soon!
:lolsign:
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 16:50
Then how do people find out about product? This goes for the wider world of electronics as well as HiFi.
The web - forums - face book type things and community - you ain't seen nothing yet. Isn't that just marketing by a different name?
I don't think it's the 'marketing' part thats the problem. It's the 'men'!
:lol:
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 16:55
how so?
Richard is (largely) referring to a certain 'duo' of marketing men who are apparently trying to take over several threads in an attempt to promote a certain product!
As well as a tendency for such folk to add heaps onto the price of products in general.
I think!
Isn't that just marketing by a different name?
Nope it is community - people.
Example the number of students at facebook that has recently caused HBOS to change policy because the community got together and outed them over stitch up student loans.
Marketing is a "think" and the individuals are corporate shadows, no longer real people. Robots of the "never mind the taste sell the sizzle" culture. Image is more important than reality "think".
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 17:16
So HiFi and consumer electronics goods should be sold like value brand baked beans and bread is sold in supermarkets?
Ashley James
18-03-2008, 17:30
Richard is (largely) referring to a certain 'duo' of marketing men who are apparently trying to take over several threads in an attempt to promote a certain product!
I keep telling you JC is simply and enthusiastic customer and this is not the place to sell AVI, you lot are the very antithesis of our customers.
As for taking over any other threads, I've never been near Wigwam, not even registered, and they've been at it for a year, but I've done a month on PF and had enough. As I've already said, nothing on any of these forums has had a measurable effect on our business or the numbers visiting our site, which has remained at between 300 and 400 uniques a day.
It's fun to argue with people who are a total anathema to me but it's no help to my business whatsoever, so don't flatter yourselves.
I don't mind trying to put across a differing viewpoint but that's as far as it goes.
I keep telling you JC is simply and enthusiastic customer and this is not the place to sell AVI
You have told me no such thing, actually.
so don't flatter yourselves.
:scratch: Exactly how am I supposed to feel flattered? :confused:
I've never been near Wigwam, not even registered, and they've been at it for a year, but I've done a month on PF and had enough.
I've never been on Wigwam either. I am a member on PF but have not posted there for a couple of years.
Ashley,
I keep telling you JC is simply and enthusiastic customer and this is not the place to sell AVI, you lot are the very antithesis of our customers.
I've got no doubt that's exactly what JC is because I wouldn't like to think you were a liar. I'm very glad that 'us lot' are the very antithesis of your customers - I wouldn't have it any other way! :)
As for taking over any other threads, I've never been near Wigwam, not even registered, and they've been at it for a year, but I've done a month on PF and had enough.
What's Wigwam got to do with it? I don't mind you "taking over" threads providing what you're discussing is relevant and not just blatant promoting of AVI. I've enjoyed our little 'spats' so far!
As I've already said, nothing on any of these forums has had a measurable effect on our business or the numbers visiting our site, which has remained at between 300 and 400 uniques a day.
That doesn't surprise me. Why should what's written on audio forums affect how many hits your website gets? I would have thought most of your customers don't go near audio forums. That's not necessarily a gauge though on how discerning they are.
It's fun to argue with people who are a total anathema to me...
That's funny. I was thinking the very same thing myself!
I don't mind trying to put across a differing viewpoint but that's as far as it goes.
And it's a pleasure to have you here offering your opinion - long may it continue.
Perhaps lay off championing the computer audio/ADM9 thing for a bit? I'd like to hear more about Ashley James the person, his audio history, and his views on other aspects of hi-fi and music than Ashley James boss of AVI promoting his latest products ;)
Perhaps you could oblige?
Marco.
Ashley James
18-03-2008, 20:34
Happily, I get fed up with defending them, but bloody furious when stupid and ill informed comments are made about them.
I notice comments about bigger speakers being better and having a greater scale than little ones and this is somewhere that I'm very well qualified to comment, having spent years selling and installing monsters in Studios and in homes including my own. I love them although with proper amplifiers controlling the bass properly, not wimpy little horrors. My speaker test amps here produce up to 1200 Watts and 100 Amps and still measure at least 20dB better than certain others.
I'm beginning to think there are too many problems in passive three-way speakers for them to fully better the best two-ways though, although they are obviously (proper ones properly designed) much louder, they are a bit harsher because it's impossible to stop the crossovers from being audible through the Mid.
B & W's Diamond Series is one possible solution, they've moved the top crossover up to 5kHz, I think they are relying on the natural roll-off of the Mid and a simple fliter on the Tweeter. This just leaves the Bass/Mid to bugger things up! I'm told it's much better than the previous models that did suffer from an irritating metal tweeter jangling in the Mid.
So HiFi and consumer electronics goods should be sold like value brand baked beans and bread is sold in supermarkets?
Don't be daft!
Richard,
Have you considered a career in Politics?
If I ever do please shoot me.
Chris Frost
18-03-2008, 23:42
So HiFi and consumer electronics goods should be sold like value brand baked beans and bread is sold in supermarkets?
Don't be daft!I'm not being daft, and don't be so condescending. I'm simply trying to understand your vision of the new HiFi landscape. Fair enough?
I'm not being daft, and don't be so condescending. I'm simply trying to understand your vision of the new HiFi landscape. Fair enough?
I don't have (a) vision.
"who needs eyes when you have glasses" (Dr Bunsen Honeydew)
AND why should I repeat posts that are in the archive just because you cannot be arsed to go and look.
Chris Frost
19-03-2008, 00:38
FYI, I did read through past posts. It's the reason why I'm asking questions. TBH, all the bickering over the AVI product made the thread quite tedious to read.
Perhaps you're not in the mood to discuss, or you've just got the hump, I don't know. :confused:
FYI, I did read through past posts. It's the reason why I'm asking questions. TBH, all the bickering over the AVI product made the thread quite tedious to read.
Perhaps you're not in the mood to discuss, or you've just got the hump, I don't know. :confused:
All together now - "kay sera sera, what ever will be will be, the futures not ours to see, kay sera sera"
Only one thing is for certain it *will* be different to what we predict. BUT also what is certain is that the status quo has run its course. Chaos theory will come up with an alternative. A butterfly flaps its wings at the wrong time in the Amazon rain forest and we all turn gay :lolsign::lol::lol:
Chris Frost
19-03-2008, 12:01
err....riiight :scratch:
Chaos theory says 1 in 4 is already gay ! well if it's not me it must be one of you 3 shirtlifters ;)
My wife says thats offensive!
:mental:
Mike Reed
19-03-2008, 22:01
Who needs chaos theory when it's not clear if it's Kay or Sarah that Richard is talking about! (Que sera, sera...Italian, I think!).
Previous subject matter seems to have moved on a bit. Must have lost the plot again. Ranting seems to have abated somewhat; is this the calm before the storm?
Who needs chaos theory when it's not clear if it's Kay or Sarah that Richard is talking about! (Que sera, sera...Italian, I think!).
Previous subject matter seems to have moved on a bit. Must have lost the plot again. Ranting seems to have abated somewhat; is this the calm before the storm?
I am sure you are right I just remember the song.
Its just another example of how the forum has been hi-jacked. I have lost the rant motivation as I just end up shaking my head in disbelief at every continuing post from Ashley and JC.
What would you like to happen then, Richard? Name it (within reason) and I'll do it :)
Marco.
What would you like to happen then, Richard? Name it (within reason) and I'll do it :)
Marco.
Give me this thread like you offered to kick them out of.
And you can rename it the Ashley and JC free thread.
LOL, no probs. I'm right in the middle of something else at the moment, so bear with me :)
Marco.
LOL, no probs. I'm right in the middle of something else at the moment, so bear with me :)
Marco.
Ready yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
C'mon, c'mon, c'mon I NEEEEEEEED to rant in freedom from AVI.
Richard,
I've looked at the software and it seems there isn't the facility to allow a member to moderate one room only. You would have to become a moderator of the whole forum, and I'm not sure that's such a good idea ;)
The software on the previous forum I had allowed you to tailor a member's permissions in that way but not on VBulletin. Sorry about that :(
However, I'll be speaking to a VBulletin expert later today about another matter, and if there's a way round this I'll sort it out and let you know :)
In the meantime if you would like me to tell Ashley and jc not to post in 'your' room then I will do that.
Marco.
Ashley James
20-03-2008, 09:18
Surely a constructive debate with all comers would be most interesting to all.
I haven't kept up properly, what happened to room 101 ?
Guys,
Please see the latest message on the notice board.
Marco.
It's just a ban under another name.
not a good approach.
It leaves every one free to discuss to discuss Nene Valley Audio and Pure sound, as much as they like.
This places a label on the forum and it's members of the most offensive kind and suggests they are simply not prepared to debate on an equal footing, and are relegated to the fan club of a person like Richard.
I am afraid that I cannot be associated with such mentally unhealthy practices and would not wish anyone to regard me as associated with such actionor such a forum.
You got this one wrong Marco. Good bye.
Mike Reed
20-03-2008, 10:09
I haven't kept up properly, what happened to room 101 ?
So I HAVE lost the plot, AND have company to boot! Whoever mentioned chaos theory had their finger on the button for sure!!!
Likewise, J.C., I didn't detect the change from 101 to 102, but that's inflation for you!
RICHARD, Would you REALLY want to rant without incurring returning fire? A unilateral rant? This would almost become CANT (no, I haven't spelt that wrongly).
Keep up the good work, chaps. This thread may disappear into the wilderness in early course, but not before a few laughs have been had.
Now there's a thought; a ranting moderator. Throw convention to the wind, Marco!
Mike Reed
20-03-2008, 10:22
Ours crossed in the post, J.C. Don't take things so seriously (that's an assumption). Haven't read Marco's notice yet, though, as I do get carried away by this literary exchange.
It's just a ban under another name.
not a good approach.
It leaves every one free to discuss to discuss Nene Valley Audio and Pure sound, as much as they like.
This places a label on the forum and it's members of the most offensive kind and suggests they are simply not prepared to debate on an equal footing, and are relegated to the fan club of a person like Richard.
I am afraid that I cannot be associated with such mentally unhealthy practices and would not wish anyone to regard me as associated with such actionor such a forum.
You got this one wrong Marco. Good bye.
jc,
As you wish. You've just shown your true colours.
:wave:
Now, folks, let's get back to normal! :)
Marco.
Keep up the good work, chaps. This thread may disappear into the wilderness in early course, but not before a few laughs have been had.
Now there's a thought; a ranting moderator. Throw convention to the wind, Marco!
It's an interesting idea, Mike, but unfortunately we don't know Richard well enough yet, and I'm not sure he'd want the responsibility.
Anyway, I'm sure he will be too busy thinking up lots of new subjects to rant about now he's 'free' (in this room) of the attentions of his two friends! ;)
Marco.
Ashley James
20-03-2008, 10:31
I don't think he has, I think what he's said is true and I've had enough too.
You've allowed yourself to be dictated to by others with commercial interests and who might actually gain something from this Forum, ultimately at its expense.
I've made the points I think relevant elsewhere so, other than to say good bye, I suggest that this leaves you with a narrow and dull remit for a Forum. By that I do not imply that AVI is the loss, just the knowledge, the experience and the contacts we have and the people it may attract. In the ordinary course of events it wouldn't amount to much, but by comparison with Pure Sound and NVA, we are Titans!
Marco, I detect regret in your post,
I am proud of my "true colours" in that I say what I believe and am not beholden to anyone.
That is no longer the situation for any member on this forum.
You made the wrong decision, and no self respecting person can now be associated with this forum. It taints every one.
You could think again, but until then I'm gone. bye bye.
Well now the dogs of marketing seem to have pissed up their last tree (thread), I think a small period of peace and quiet reflection is due.
BUT be scared, be very scared. THE RANT WILL BE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve Toy
20-03-2008, 10:56
I am very disappointed by Ashley's and JC's decision to leave The Art of Sound as it confirms that they really did only intended to misuse this place to turn every thread they posted on into an ADM9s infomercial.
We were hoping for considerably more depth and breadth from their contributions that could be drawn from their vast knowledge and experience of both hi-fi and life in general.
I do genuinely wish you all the best with ADM9s. You certainly don't need to endlessly market (plug) them here on what is still a small commiunity and one that could all too easily be completely dominated by the kind of product and marketing style that is somewhat at odds with our ethos and flavour.
I appreciate that you've generated more traffic but road accidents often have a similar effect.
You made the wrong decision, and no self respecting person can now be associated with this forum. It taints every one.
There is nothing like burning ones bridges. :rolleyes:
I am in total agreement with Steve.
The most pertinent observation is that faced with the choice of not being able to discuss AVI but remaining to discuss other relevant subjects both chose to go, which says everything you need to know about their (supposed) commitment to 'improve' the forum!
However, neither of them are banned and are welcome to return (and observe the rules) if they wish.
Unless Rob has got anything further to add, this is the last word on the matter and any further input on this subject from the 'AVI boys' will be removed.
Richard,
I look forward to many more rants in due course! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Filterlab
20-03-2008, 11:29
... it confirms that they really did only intended to misuse this place to turn every thread they posted on into an ADM9s infomercial....
Unless Rob has got anything further to add, this is the last word on the matter and any further input on this subject from the 'AVI boys' will be removed.
Sorry Steve and Marco, but I have to disagree. JC is simply a happy customer who auditioned many manufacturer's hardware and settled on AVI. If he can't rave about how good it is on a hi-fi forum then where can he? Ashley has, as far as I have read, not used this forum to turn every thread into an AVI 'informercial' at all, he's simply (and quite rightly) discussing his angle on hi-fi and AVI's products as a result.
Remember that when we invite manufacturers to join, we tell them that they may promote their products at will. What good is it if we suddenly decide to remove that offer once they start talking about them? Also if we have to place a ban on discussing AVI products, then surely we have to place a ban on talking about ANY manufacturers products. Mmmm, great basis for a hi-fi forum and does it not completely go against the very fabric of our original intentions for The Art of Sound?
I have purposely avoided coming on whilst this thread has been growing, I wanted to let it run its natural course and see the result. The result is as posted in the Notice Board section which was a little unexpected to say the least bearing in mind the excellent relationship we have with our trade members. Personally I think it's a mistake, but then we can't all agree 100% of the time. :)
That's my penneth worth, for what it is worth.
jandl100
20-03-2008, 11:30
Well done - result!
I'd welcome Ashley back to hear his general views on things hifi & music - he at least was polite - but to be honest I'd ban his side-kick for being a totally obnoxious narrow-minded git (and that's wording it politely). ;)
Back to things hifi ..... I'm just about to start a new thread. :)
anthonyTD
20-03-2008, 11:45
Sorry Steve and Marco, but I have to disagree. JC is simply a happy customer who auditioned many manufacturer's hardware and settled on AVI. If he can't rave about how good it is on a hi-fi forum then where can he? Ashley has, as far as I have read, not used this forum to turn every thread into an AVI 'informercial' at all, he's simply (and quite rightly) discussing his angle on hi-fi and AVI's products as a result.
Remember that when we invite manufacturers to join, we tell them that they may promote their products at will. What good is it if we suddenly decide to remove that offer once they start talking about them? Also if we have to place a ban on discussing AVI products, then surely we have to place a ban on talking about ANY manufacturers products. Mmmm, great basis for a hi-fi forum and does it not completely go against the very fabric of our original intentions for The Art of Sound?
I have purposely avoided coming on whilst this thread has been growing, I wanted to let it run its natural course and see the result. The result is as posted in the Notice Board section which was a little unexpected to say the least bearing in mind the excellent relationship we have with our trade members. Personally I think it's a mistake, but then we can't all agree 100% of the time. :)
That's my penneth worth, for what it is worth.
even though i am probably the last one to comment on this decision, being at the oposite end [sort of] to ashley in terms of the the type of equipment we are involved with etc,i have to agree with rob, i found ashley very knowlegeable at times, even though we would probably never agree much on anything "hi fi" so, i think not allowing him, and people like him to at least have their say on this forum is a real shame, i know things got a bit heated and ashley with hindsite probably would agree that maybe he should have had a more open mind to some of the other guys own views of what makes for a good musical experience, or not, but hey,what do i know!!!
Steve Toy
20-03-2008, 12:09
Anthony,
We may yet be able to broker some kind of compromise...
AVI make great kit apart from ADM bloody 9s and Rob has just bought some of it...
Filterlab
20-03-2008, 12:19
...and Rob has just bought some of it...
Almost, but not actually purchased yet. The power amp (S21ma V2.0) is currently sitting at the top of a very large pile. I've just got one pair of monoblocks to hear first. ;)
Guys,
I hear what you're saying. At the end of the day, all I want is what is best for the forum, and what keeps the majority of our membership happy. It should always be remembered that a forum is only as good as the people in it, and what we consider appropriate or of benefit may not be so to others.
Therefore to that effect, I propose we conduct a poll and ask our membership to vote on Ashley and jc. The poll will run for a couple of days to allow everyone the chance to vote and I will stand by the results of the poll and respect the majority decision.
Rob,
Would you care to do the honours? :)
Marco.
Filterlab
20-03-2008, 13:00
I'm on it now babes. ;)
I must admit, I have found these threads most entertaining in the last few weeks, conversely also saddening too that manufacturers have resulted basic low level slanging matching in the public domain.
As pointed out, both Richard and Ashley are articulate and intelligent people, who are knowledgeable individuals. I believe they contribute to the whole, even if their views are biased.
'Professional hat off time'
In the red corner weighing in at 210 pounds 'Ashely squawk box power monitor III James' tag line, PC audio is were its at
In the blue corner tipping the scales at 195 pounds 'Richard the whole audio industries a bunch Cnuts and robbing smoothing talking bar-stewards who would steal the grannies boot laces for a £5' Nva is where its at!
Ashely's seconder Jcb the ' the Conditioned rabid pit bull on speed' with instant level V force field activation in the defense of avi squawk boxes.
Now While I agree with the majority of the common sense in some the replies here, in that Yes JCB has a right to support any product he uses and likes and say so (free speak/Churchill and all that!). He has to accept the fact that not every one in the free world is a lover of the those little powered monitors as should Ashely and therefore should be awarded the same courteous.
In the same vein Richard's bitter and twisted cynicism out weighs my own by a factor of 10 to the power 2M lol!
Richard also stated he was possibly needing to registrar for VAT, now I believe the Vat threshold is around the £60K mark? with all the protestations and high profile antics on forums obvious his sales have made a huge leap ;-)
How about some decent reasoned debate rather than taking pots shots at each other all day chaps?. Not too much to ask.
Tony
jandl100
21-03-2008, 10:18
Well, it's Mr. C (Hi Tony! :wave:) - nice to see you here, you are much missed in "another place".
I'd certainly support a call for more reasoned debate, and now that a certain rabid dog is hopefully peeing on a different lamp-post that looks more likely to happen.
Be kind to Mr Dunn, though - his heart really is in the right place, I think - even if he does see the world thru cynicism-tinted spectacles! ;)
(What colour is cynicism anyway? - sort of a blotchy yellowy-purple, perhaps).
I must admit, I have found these threads most entertaining in the last few weeks, conversely also saddening too that manufacturers have resulted basic low level slanging matching in the public domain.
As pointed out, both Richard and Ashley are articulate and intelligent people, who are knowledgeable individuals. I believe they contribute to the whole, even if their views are biased.
'Professional hat off time'
In the red corner weighing in at 210 pounds 'Ashely squawk box power monitor III James' tag line, PC audio is were its at
In the blue corner tipping the scales at 195 pounds 'Richard the whole audio industries a bunch Cnuts and robbing smoothing talking bar-stewards who would steal the grannies boot laces for a £5' Nva is where its at!
Ashely's seconder Jcb the ' the Conditioned rabid pit bull on speed' with instant level V force field activation in the defense of avi squawk boxes.
Now While I agree with the majority of the common sense in some the replies here, in that Yes JCB has a right to support any product he uses and likes and say so (free speak/Churchill and all that!). He has to accept the fact that not every one in the free world is a lover of the those little powered monitors as should Ashely and therefore should be awarded the same courteous.
In the same vein Richard's bitter and twisted cynicism out weighs my own by a factor of 10 to the power 2M lol!
Richard also stated he was possibly needing to registrar for VAT, now I believe the Vat threshold is around the £60K mark? with all the protestations and high profile antics on forums obvious his sales have made a huge leap ;-)
How about some decent reasoned debate rather than taking pots shots at each other all day chaps?. Not too much to ask.
Tony
You really should learn to read before you spout.
There is a thing here called an archive, search under Richard and find me any post where I have promoted NVA. You will even find posts where I have refused to promote it, you will find posts where I have asked to be *not* called a trader as I do not wish to trade here. I have even explained fully why I am not pursuing sales and wish to stay small. Strange it may seem but true and obviously outside of your comprehension. The pursuit of more leads to more overheads more time more agravation, as well as more money, and in fact past a certain stage means you get less. You then have to do a *lot* more to break through that barrier and most businesses are subsequently pulled down by their overheads. There is a level of production which maximises return v work (I am a lazy sod) it is siting at vat limit. It was my intention on re-starting just to do this. I am not interested in challenging the big boys or even the middle size boys like AVI, I am not (on my own) capable of challenging them.
Part of the advantage of being like this is I can call a spade a spade and tell about the industy as it is. The industry has lived in delusion for years motivated by the slurp triumvirate - marketing man - reviewer / editor - retailer. The world is changing, my thesis is that this current state of affairs has had its day, new forms of commerce are emerging. My desire is to be the finger pointing, not the moon.
I have a real decision coming up as to wether I deliberately restrict sales even more or I accept a degree of expansion in order to include products I have the desire to produce - it is a real delemma. Luckily I can hold off this decision until I move house, and moving in the present housing environment is a bag of nails. So I may try to avoid it for a while. I have taken a high presence in this deabate because I have been chuntering for years to myself and people who know me about the state of the industry, but now the control powers are waning, as I have said many times, so I am giving it a push. The rip off retailers have had their day, most will go bust over the next couple of years in this recession. They have slurped off the customers for the last time IMO.
If you think I am wrong then test it - do one of these vote thingies and ask if customers think they get a good deal through the traditional marketing in this country - yes right!! that is why you charge twice as much on average for the same product as opposed to a US or Far Eastern dealer.
Someone has to *rant* the changes as they happen and I decided to do it.
There is no nva promotion from me and there wont be any. BUT I cannot deny who I am.
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
There are ways and means of going about this, (FWIW I do actually believe in around 40% of your views).
I just do not have the time to write reams and reams about who/what and were fores.
I have a business to operate and customers that need service and expertise and we are busy.
One thing I will say is this, the hifi industry in the country will/need and is having to chance those that don't will fall by the way side.
However, there are a few companies that are ON the BALL and who sussed this issue quite a while ago. Customer service and the ability to delivery the goods, not 30% cheaper by internet, BUT actually make it sound right, and provide the back up and friendly open advice. Simple box shifting and the numbers cannot provide this verbaitum.
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the words, you will still find me around, though these days my work load is getting 'interesting'
Now and again I can find the time to answer a few forum queries and muse with rest.
Tony
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
Tony
OK you have got my goat you twisting little sod.
Name one person who bats for me and what incentive is provided to them, if you do I will sue, if you can't you can stick your innuendo up where it belongs, Fff-ing cheek!
Retailer desperation, try to kill the piano player not the tune. Well the tune is on automatic, you can't stop it.
OK you have got my goat you twisting little sod.
Name one person who bats for me and what incentive is provided to them, if you do I will sue, if you can't you can stick your innuendo up where it belongs, Fff-ing cheek!
Richard,
A couple of points here
1. I am not little, I don't twist and the last time I looked the this morning I was not a clod of earth.
2. Innuendo?, I cannot see any, nor do I rate Queens last album
3. FFF-Cheek?, I believe you are the master of this particular trait with some aplomb
4. If some one presented the proof online, would you really want to waste your money being shown the way in a small claims court? you would look rather silly.
Richard, take a step out of the circle, have a cup of earl grey, a kit kat and relax, let the sands of time wash over your jaded soul and release those tensions in deep and meaningful meditation. You know it will have the desired effect.
Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 12:16
lol! I meant to say "oh dear!"
Richard,
A couple of points here
1. I am not little, I don't twist and the last time I looked the this morning I was not a cod of earth.
2. Innuendo?, I cannot see any, nor do I rate Queens last album
3. FFF-Cheek?, I believe you are the master of this particular trait with some aplomb
4. If some one presented the proof online, would you really want to waste your money being shown the way in a small claims court? you would look rather silly.
Richard, take a step out of the circle, have a cup of earl grey, a kit kat and relax, let the sands of time wash over your jaded soul and release those tensions in deep and meaningful meditation. You know it will have the desired effect.
My reputation is very important to me, to the point that my last penny will go on defending it. Innuendo is what you used, everyone here sees it and can verify it it. Innuendo is the province of the fraud and the charlatan, used by the red tops all the time, so you are in their class.
This rumour was started at PF and continued at WW. Rumours tend to take on their own life. I understand it was started by £50 retailers, which you were one of, so you may have been instrumental in the original. There is none and can be no proof of it as it didn't happen. BUT the challenge is put out there for you or others to publish some or make your accusations concrete and not just innuendo and rumour, then sunshine I will sue and it wont be the small claims court you can be sure of that.
Richard,
If you reputation is so important to you, why do you insist on making yourself look less
than professional in the public domain
I have no knowledge of what happened on PF or WW, neither do I wish, I do not spend my life trawling through internet forums, I do have a life and more important things to attend to. (quite why I am still answering you is bemusing me lol)
Rumours,
Indeed through the annals of time have had the same effect, start one statement at the end of one line, by the other its something completely different.
I can vouch for the fact that internet forums are certain a place for some great ones!
"Innuendo is the province of the fraud and the charlatan, used by the red tops all the time, so you are in their class."
Innuendo is also a great class of humour and the skill in a which a negotiator can solve a problem.
Attempting to tar me with the same brush Richard is a pretty basic response, one which I am sadly disappointed in.
A man with your obvious talents for the dramatic its very average repost, must do better Richard c minus.
This I believe is one of your gems from your last reply
'I understand it was started by £50 retailers, which you were one of, so you may have been instrumental in the original.'
I see you are resorting to the very tactics you have being trying to strive against, pot/kettle/black syndrome.
very light weight indeed:-(
AS for sunshine Richard, I have never been your sunshine, nor will I be, your just not my type.
If the proof is becomes available, May the chalenge will be taken up expediently, and those big reteric outpourings you have been spouting over the great world wide web will be silenced.
:scratch: Hmmmm... I don't think I quite follow whats going on between you two. I get the impression that there may be some, err, 'history'? :scratch:
:confused:
Shain,
Genuinely no history between Richard and myself, I have never met the man or communicated with him other than on an internet forum.
I believe some of views are spot on others are a little off the mark nothing more.
Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 13:25
Richard,
Tony is one of the good guys. As well as being a dealer working from home he also manufactures his own cabling. He is certainly no box shifter and I feel he adds a lot of value in what he does.
I think both of you should read my Winds of Change thread:
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=334
Shain,
Genuinely no history between Richard and myself, I have never met the man or communicated with him other than on an internet forum.
I believe some of views are spot on others are a little off the mark nothing more.
Ah!.... Just Richard doing his 'pull no punches' bit then!
Richard,
If you reputation is so important to you, why do you insist on making yourself look less
than professional in the public domain
I have no knowledge of what happened on PF or WW, neither do I wish, I do not spend my life trawling through internet forums, I do have a life and more important things to attend to. (quite why I am still answering you is bemusing me lol)
Rumours,
Indeed through the annals of time have had the same effect, start one statement at the end of one line, by the other its something completely different.
I can vouch for the fact that internet forums are certain a place for some great ones!
"Innuendo is the province of the fraud and the charlatan, used by the red tops all the time, so you are in their class."
Innuendo is also a great class of humour and the skill in a which a negotiator can solve a problem.
Attempting to tar me with the same brush Richard is a pretty basic response, one which I am sadly disappointed in.
A man with your obvious talents for the dramatic its very average repost, must do better Richard c minus.
This I believe is one of your gems from your last reply
'I understand it was started by £50 retailers, which you were one of, so you may have been instrumental in the original.'
I see you are resorting to the very tactics you have being trying to strive against, pot/kettle/black syndrome.
very light weight indeed:-(
AS for sunshine Richard, I have never been your sunshine, nor will I be, your just not my type.
If the proof is becomes available, May the chalenge will be taken up expediently, and those big reteric outpourings you have been spouting over the great world wide web will be silenced.
You are obviously a liar!
You would not have brought up the subject if you hadn't been privy to it at PF or WW.
Richard,
Tony is one of the good guys. As well as being a dealer working from home he also manufactures his own cabling. He is certainly no box shifter and I feel he adds a lot of value in what he does.
I think both of you should read my Winds of Change thread:
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=334
So how would you feel if someone said you were taking backhanders to promote product here?
Prince of Darkness
21-03-2008, 14:17
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
I think Richard took this to be implying that he was paying or otherwise encouraging people to promote his products. This is I think a reasonable interpretation to make.
If Tony did not intend it this way, then perhaps he could say so. Otherwise, I would say that this is a serious allegation and should only be made if provable.
Steve Toy
21-03-2008, 14:20
So how would you feel if someone said you were taking backhanders to promote product here?
Do you think I am?
Do you think I am?
Not in the slightest. I just wanted you to see how I feel about it.
I would say that this is a serious allegation and should only be made if provable.
Well said!
I may be wrong, but does there seem to be quite a bit of, erm, 'passionate discussion' among some of the forum members who are 'in the trade'?
It's quite interesting to some of us punters, but I hope it doesn't all end in tears!
:peace:
Well said!
I may be wrong, but does there seem to be quite a bit of, erm, 'passionate discussion' among some of the forum members who are 'in the trade'?
It's quite interesting to some of us punters, but I hope it doesn't all end in tears!
:peace:
There is going to be more of this as you observe the death throws of an industry with a parallel rebirth. Differing ideas and concepts on this rebirth. Ashley and AVI is one very valid one - we will all go laptops or iPong pods. He may be right for the majority. BUT the enthusiast will still have to have his hobby. Like it was in the 50's and early 60's we are going back to it, the wheel turns.
50s and early 60s? Was that when they had those wind-up Gramophones? :eyebrows:
Marco.
50s and early 60s? Was that when they had those wind-up Gramophones? :eyebrows:
Marco.
No they had virtually identical things to the ones you rave about :lolsign:
Something strange happened in between then and now as far as you are concerned :scratch::ner:
There is going to be more of this as you observe the death throws of an industry with a parallel rebirth. Differing ideas and concepts on this rebirth. Ashley and AVI is one very valid one - we will all go laptops or iPong pods. He may be right for the majority. BUT the enthusiast will still have to have his hobby. Like it was in the 50's and early 60's we are going back to it, the wheel turns.
Excellent...... Bring it on!!!
:smoking:
Excellent...... Bring it on!!!
:smoking:
You will bring it on, with like minded people.
I wont bring it on, I only have the function of the finger, you are the moon.
Now hey!.... don't get all philosophical on me, I'm a simpleton, just ask JC'sBum! ;)... pointing at the moon indeed! :lolsign:
I'm trying to do my 'bit'. I buy things in kit form or directly from manufacturers these days, if it's something I NEED to use a dealer for I tend to look for independent folk who deal mainly in second hand gear.
Opps sorry, I believe the correct phrase these days is 'quality pre-owned equipment supplier'!
Cheers,
Mike.
anthonyTD
21-03-2008, 21:04
Now hey!.... don't get all philosophical on me, I'm a simpleton, just ask JC'sBum! ;)... pointing at the moon indeed! :lolsign:
I'm trying to do my 'bit'. I buy things in kit form or directly from manufacturers these days, if it's something I NEED to use a dealer for I tend to look for independent folk who deal mainly in second hand gear.
Opps sorry, I believe the correct phrase these days is 'quality pre-owned equipment supplier'!
Cheers,
Mike.
thank goodness for mike, you crack me up mate, your outstanding at turning things back to a light hearted discusion, maybe marco, rob, steve, should make you peace maker [maybe court jester?]
anthony....
thank goodness for mike, you crack me up mate, your outstanding at turning things back to a light hearted discusion, maybe marco, rob, steve, should make you peace maker [maybe court jester?]
anthony....
Thanks for that mate.... I try to do my best, life is too short to be serious all the time, this is only a hobby after all! :lolsign:
I'd rather be 'traveling minstrel' (can I sing jokes?) if possible?
Lighten up folks!!! Life can be gooooood!
thank goodness for mike, you crack me up mate, your outstanding at turning things back to a light hearted discusion, maybe marco, rob, steve, should make you peace maker [maybe court jester?]
LOL. Intereting call, Anthony. Perhaps Mike is due some sort of promotion...
Leave it with me ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-03-2008, 22:40
LOL. Intereting call, Anthony. Perhaps Mike is due some sort of promotion...
Leave it with me ;)
Marco.
will do.....
happy easter all............
anthony....
stupinder
23-03-2008, 14:35
I'm not in a position to listen to you amps Richard - but on the reviews of others i was on the verge of buying a set of monos and a pre. Why didn't i?
To be honest it was because i'd read a few of your rants on this forum and others. I am well aware that should i have the opportunity to listen to your amps then i'm sure i would buy 'em.... but I think you do yourself no favours in the way you continue your polemic against the industry. any intelligent person knows when they are being sold to and it is up to them to see through this bullshit! I know you make hifi for how YOU want it to sound and i have to commend you for that! BUT you also have to appreciate that whether its a loaf of bread or a pint of milk, or a grands worth of hifi, then some decision making over and above what it tastes or sounds like will come into the equation.
i do feel eventually given the opportunity to listen to your gear that, given the reviews here and elsewhere i will move to the "dickside" but until then i will listen to what i can and the reviews i can and make my decisions.
I do think that sugar coated shit can be sold to those willing to accept the reviews of the demigods in the hifi press and perhaps your marketing stance of standing up to them is little more than marketing bullshit in itself;-) - take a stand and be seen as taking on the giants.
I dunno ..... i bought Linn gear!!
I look forward to my slating!!
I'm not in a position to listen to you amps Richard - but on the reviews of others i was on the verge of buying a set of monos and a pre. Why didn't i?
To be honest it was because i'd read a few of your rants on this forum and others. I am well aware that should i have the opportunity to listen to your amps then i'm sure i would buy 'em.... but I think you do yourself no favours in the way you continue your polemic against the industry. any intelligent person knows when they are being sold to and it is up to them to see through this bullshit! I know you make hifi for how YOU want it to sound and i have to commend you for that! BUT you also have to appreciate that whether its a loaf of bread or a pint of milk, or a grands worth of hifi, then some decision making over and above what it tastes or sounds like will come into the equation.
i do feel eventually given the opportunity to listen to your gear that, given the reviews here and elsewhere i will move to the "dickside" but until then i will listen to what i can and the reviews i can and make my decisions.
I do think that sugar coated shit can be sold to those willing to accept the reviews of the demigods in the hifi press and perhaps your marketing stance of standing up to them is little more than marketing bullshit in itself;-) - take a stand and be seen as taking on the giants.
I dunno ..... i bought Linn gear!!
I look forward to my slating!!
Why should I slate you, you have a very valid opinion.
You still base it on sales though - (me) I will sell more if I keep my mouth shut - like the forum owner "shut these people up and you will make more money from the extablished industry" - like the magazine "support these products and I will make sure you get more advertising revenue" - like the reviewer "give it a good review and I will give you all my new product to write about" - And of course the inverse, don't follow the curve and you will be ridiculed.
Sorry I am not playing that game. If present sales continue I will have to put my prices up to control sales, I refuse to employ and get a factory! - I will have to VAT register so that is another 17.5% for a start.
So do me favour please don't buy NVA Stupinder. But if you want to listen too them please do so that gives me far more satisfaction than taking your money, I have enough thanks. Listening is free.
Anyway enough of NVA, this thread keeps being dragged back to NVA. I write this thread because I know this industry having spent man and boy over 40 years in it. I did not come here to promote nva, I have precisely no interest in your business Stupinder. That is what I employ :eyebrows: ebay for, go there. So nva is relevent because it is a part of me, but it is not a part of my thoughts on the industry, that is scratching an itch that has plagued me for years. Listen or not agree or not, but at least it makes you THINK!
Anyway enough of this pretentious claptrap, there is enough on tele over easter to last all year. Stupinder - enjoy your music - bugger everyone and everything else, including me.
stupinder
23-03-2008, 18:00
Richard what an absolutely ridiculous statement! There's nowt on the box this easter.
Richard what an absolutely ridiculous statement! There's nowt on the box this easter.
Religion - the ex opiate of the masses - you can't get more pretentious than that.
stupinder
23-03-2008, 21:32
I've read through many of your postings now richard and the more I read the more I like your outlook. True... you are a cantacerous old git but you are true to your beliefs and as such I admire you. i run a restaurant that is run on the belief that if people find us and like what they eat/experience then they will return. They do ....but it's a slow burn and i will never earn a fortune doing this. I don't want to. I want to offer a great product at a great price without pandering to what is fashionable in the "marketplace" - been there done that.
I think all aspects of life and leisure are being overtaken by the marketing men and people inflating prices giving the impression that "if it costs a lot it must be good" - and we swallow it - My background is in advertising and i know this is fact.
However, we live in a world where the £$€ is king and artisans, with a real belief in their product will be trodden under the foot of those with the big marketing budgets. Perhaps not!!! Perhaps those companies with the bottle to offer the best product they can at the best price they can will be the ones to survive the impending global shit that is innevitable and that the consumer will eventualy see through the marketing bollocks and see ( rather than percieve) what is good value for money
I'm glad you're not interested in my business - if I happen across your products and have the chance to listen to them then i will decide what i think. in a similar way folks who happen on my restaurant will decide if they enjoy the experience or not. i am not cooking for the masses. I am cooking for me and hope the masses enjoy, and are willing to pay for it.
Let them eat mr Kiplings
anthonyTD
23-03-2008, 22:18
I've read through many of your postings now richard and the more I read the more I like your outlook. True... you are a cantacerous old git but you are true to your beliefs and as such I admire you. i run a restaurant that is run on the belief that if people find us and like what they eat/experience then they will return. They do ....but it's a slow burn and i will never earn a fortune doing this. I don't want to. I want to offer a great product at a great price without pandering to what is fashionable in the "marketplace" - been there done that.
I think all aspects of life and leisure are being overtaken by the marketing men and people inflating prices giving the impression that "if it costs a lot it must be good" - and we swallow it - My background is in advertising and i know this is fact.
However, we live in a world where the £$€ is king and artisans, with a real belief in their product will be trodden under the foot of those with the big marketing budgets. Perhaps not!!! Perhaps those companies with the bottle to offer the best product they can at the best price they can will be the ones to survive the impending global shit that is innevitable and that the consumer will eventualy see through the marketing bollocks and see ( rather than percieve) what is good value for money
I'm glad you're not interested in my business - if I happen across your products and have the chance to listen to them then i will decide what i think. in a similar way folks who happen on my restaurant will decide if they enjoy the experience or not. i am not cooking for the masses. I am cooking for me and hope the masses enjoy, and are willing to pay for it.
Let them eat mr Kiplings
well said !!!
since i have been on this forum,[not long] i have tried to catch up and read as many threads as posible, from as many members as posible, [in the time i have] i think i am pretty good at seeing through the bull**it*rs, and there are a lot of people on here who if you put aside their rants, and ribbing, make a lot of sense, i would include richard as one, although he can cut close to the bone at times, he is true to his beliefs, which is more than you can say for a lot of people involved in this some times mad, and ego-tistic industry!!!
I am trying to compile a list from my memory of the amp companies lost due the activities of the Hi-Fi mafia (and government created recessions) during the 80's and 90's. There may be mistakes, and I know a couple have been taken over as shadows of their former products. I will do similar list of T/T and speaker companies.
Anyway - additions and corrections please
Albarry
Aura
Exposure
Incatech
Magnum
Myryad
Myst
Onix
Really we should also add Quad to this list.
Chris Frost
25-03-2008, 12:06
I am trying to compile a list / of the amp companies lost due the activities of the Hi-Fi mafia (and government created recessions) … I will do similar list of T/T and speaker companies. What positive purpose will that serve other than to deepen your resentment of “the establishment”.
Being a maverick is a good thing, and you may be surprised that I’m actually rooting for you! (You might just want to go back and read that bit again.) IMO anything that gets consumers to think outside the box is a good thing. But be realistic too. Just because you’ve decided to go direct doesn’t mean that the rest of the industry is suddenly going to wave the white flag.
It’s old news that the Hi-Fi industry has been in recession for a very long time. The world economic climate is going to accelerate that process but the casualties aren’t going to be the big brands. They have enough fat to survive starvation for a while. It’s the smaller more innovative brands and companies that will suffer first and that’s a real shame because it with reduce consumer choice. That’s not something to be celebrated, is it.
What positive purpose will that serve other than to deepen your resentment of “the establishment”.
Being a maverick is a good thing, and you may be surprised that I’m actually rooting for you! (You might just want to go back and read that bit again.) IMO anything that gets consumers to think outside the box is a good thing. But be realistic too. Just because you’ve decided to go direct doesn’t mean that the rest of the industry is suddenly going to wave the white flag.
It’s old news that the Hi-Fi industry has been in recession for a very long time. The world economic climate is going to accelerate that process but the casualties aren’t going to be the big brands. They have enough fat to survive starvation for a while. It’s the smaller more innovative brands and companies that will suffer first and that’s a real shame because it with reduce consumer choice. That’s not something to be celebrated, is it.
Complete nonsense - the world has changed, the smaller inovative companies like Beresford are direct and like the other smaller ones trading on ebay. They will weather this recesion perfectly well. AND if the other smaller companies who have decided to rely on retailers have any sense they will quickly switch to direct. It is the big companies with big overheads and their partners in crime the foot tapping retailers who will suffer. In the old recessions the large companies had such a hold on the industry the companies mentioned here didn't stand a chance as they couldn't sell anywhere else. Now if the designers are still around and they managed to retain rights to their design and company name then THIS is the moment to restart and sell on ebay. If they just look and see the prices their old stuff is going for now to astute buyers and collectors. For example there is a lovely set of Albarry mono power amps at ebay. Hens teeth as very few were made, but a zonking good amp with a mellowness that would very much appeal to todays valve enthusiasts. Works well with a passive. So an amp system for low dosh and high pleasure.
Roll on the recession, bargains for everyone, if you have the spare dosh. Pity about the foot tapping marketing men, but oh well someone has to suffer :eyebrows::eyebrows::lol::lol:
Chris Frost
25-03-2008, 15:29
I think you place too much faith in the internet. It might work for you and your cottage business and other niche producers, but I remain sceptical that the general Hi-Fi consumer would consider it a viable route.
I think you place too much faith in the internet. It might work for you and your cottage business and other niche producers, but I remain sceptical that the general Hi-Fi consumer would consider it a viable route.
Struth, I have posted on this and the history of the industry so many times. It *is* a cottage industry, which means it is a hobby industry, not a mainstream industry. The mainstream is going somewhere else, computers and television and games.
I have to say that when I buy hi-fi equipment from a dealer or direct from a manufacturer I would do it only by either hearing it at his or her premises first, or if they would sent it to me to audition at home prior to purchase on the strength of a valid credit card number (without the card being charged).
I would not buy hi-fi equipment of high value from the Internet where this facility is not available unless I knew the person selling the equipment or they had an established reputation. I also dislike the 'buy it first and if you don't like it I'll refund it' policy of some people selling direct (sorry, Richard!) as it inconveniences the customer in the event that goods sold are unsuitable, whilst at the same time being out of pocket until a refund is processed. If I buy goods I want the service to back it up, too, not to have to do everything myself.
When I've 'sampled the goods', so to speak, decided they're suitable, and I want to buy them, that's when I pay, not before. It's the same in restaurants. If I enter a premises that insists on me paying upfront for my food, I refuse and go elsewhere. What if the food is shit and the management refuse later to give me a refund? Nope - I like to be the one in control of my money, thank you very much!!
Marco.
Chris Frost
25-03-2008, 16:30
Struth, I have posted on this and the history of the industry so many times. It *is* a cottage industry, which means it is a hobby industry, not a mainstream industry. The mainstream is going somewhere else, computers and television and games.We obviously have different views of the industry. I wouldn't call companies such as Linn, Naim, Meridian, B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio etc etc cottage.
I have to say that when I buy hi-fi equipment from a dealer or direct from a manufacturer I would do it only by either hearing it at his or her premises first, or if they would sent it to me to audition at home prior to purchase on the strength of a valid credit card number (without the card being charged).
I would not buy hi-fi equipment of high value from the Internet where this facility is not available unless I knew the person selling the equipment or they had an established reputation. I also dislike the 'buy it first and if you don't like it I'll refund it' policy of some people selling direct (sorry, Richard!) as it inconveniences the customer in the event that goods sold are unsuitable, whilst at the same time being out of pocket until a refund is processed. If I buy goods I want the service to back it up, too, not to have to do everything myself.
When I've 'sampled the goods', so to speak, decided they're suitable, and I want to buy them, that's when I pay, not before. It's the same in restaurants. If I enter a premises that insists on me paying up front for my food, I refuse and go elsewhere. What if the food is shit and the management refuse later to give me a refund? Nope - I like to be the one in control of my money, thank you very much!!
Marco.
So you are willing to pay an extra 50 to 100% depending on product for this convenience. OK no problem it is a process of choice which at least is freedom allowed now. It was not allowed in the past.
The world is going in the other direction Marco. The convenience store is dying apart from emergency fags. I suppose the addicted equivelent in Hi-Fi is the NLPed Linn-ite. But an industry cannot be run that way now, pandoras box has been opened.
Your point of credit cards also is invalid as that would mean increased margins to pay for it so it would have to be retailers again providing this service, so you might as well visit then in person. OK credit cards via a manufacturers website I suppose could be dodgy, but if it is a genuine authorised merchant you are completely protected. Via ebay and paypal you are protected even more as long as you avoid the scammers who are very easy to see. Both paypal and ebay err on the side of the buyer in any dispute.
Experience tell me the only people who wish to try product without being willing to pay for it are those who don't have the money but want to try things. Remember in relative terms the web and online selling is new. I bet in 10 years it will be unrecognisable to now and methods may have been arrived at to do this. We have proxy servers so proxy money holding the way paypal is going more and more into may end up being the answer. Money is not taken or given but a contract is made, it is then fullfilled by either keeping or returning.
I am sure this is the way ebay and paypal are leaning. I just wish someone else would come up with an alternative route though as a monoploy is never a good thing.
Experience tell me the only people who wish to try product without being willing to pay for it are those who don't have the money but want to try things
I don't doubt that's the case, but you have to judge things on an individual basis and rely on a person's reputation (if they have one) good or bad. I'm a serious buyer, and if I want something I have the money to pay for it, no problem.
I would not mess anyone about unless they've messed me about. I'm in business myself (art dealer/framer) so I know what it's like. If I'm asking to audition equipment then it means I'm in the market to buy it, or to review a manufacturer's product for the forum ;)
However, as the customer, I want to be the one in control of the situation, especially when it involves my finances. It's kind of 'catch 22', but there you go.
Marco.
Filterlab
25-03-2008, 18:13
I am trying to compile a list from my memory of the amp companies lost due the activities of the Hi-Fi mafia (and government created recessions) during the 80's and 90's. There may be mistakes, and I know a couple have been taken over as shadows of their former products. I will do similar list of T/T and speaker companies.
Anyway - additions and corrections please
Albarry
Aura
Exposure
Incatech
Magnum
Myryad
Myst
Onix
Really we should also add Quad to this list.
Shame we can't add Musical Fidelity to that list.
Steve Toy
25-03-2008, 19:04
Shame we can't add Musical Fidelity to that list.
lol
jandl100
25-03-2008, 22:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
I think Richard took this to be implying that he was paying or otherwise encouraging people to promote his products. This is I think a reasonable interpretation to make.
If Tony did not intend it this way, then perhaps he could say so. Otherwise, I would say that this is a serious allegation and should only be made if provable.
This allegation about NVA was repeated on Wigwam as well, from the boss there. I queried him about this (as my dealings with Richard indicated that this rumour was unlikely in the extreme). I received the reply that it was a rumour only, and that he had seen no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
Tony, you owe Richard an open apology, imho. .... unless you have evidence, in which case present it.
We obviously have different views of the industry. I wouldn't call companies such as Linn, Naim, Meridian, B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio etc etc cottage.
They just got too big for their shoes and became semi detached for a while. In this recession they will all be downsizing to smaller houses or trying to sell up and rent, or going on the council housing list :lol::lol:
Shame we can't add Musical Fidelity to that list.
More like Musical non-Fidelity, or even Musical Infidelity! :lol:
Anthony Michaelson lost the plot years ago. MF used to do some decent products but not now. This 'Supercharger' shite, and 'If your amp doesn't have at least 300W it's shit' nonsense was the last straw :mental:
Marco.
Filterlab
25-03-2008, 22:58
More like Musical non-Fidelity, or even Musical Infidelity! :lol:
Anthony Michaelson lost the plot years ago. MF used to do some decent products but not now. This 'Supercharger' shite, and 'If your amp doesn't have at least 300W it's shit' nonsense was the last straw :mental:
Marco.
Yeah, that really got my goat actually. I'd just spent £2500 on an MF source, and here was Anthony Michaelson telling me my system sounded bad just because the dynamic range wasn't the same as a concert hall (???). Bearing in mind I play mainly electronica through my system, vast dynamic range isn't called for.
Moreover he has never heard my system so where does he get off telling me it's bad? Tosser, now that's one company director who wants to see his business fall flat.
Yeah, that really got my goat actually. I'd just spent £2500 on an MF source, and here was Anthony Michaelson telling me my system sounded bad just because the dynamic range wasn't the same as a concert hall (???). Bearing in mind I play mainly electronica through my system, vast dynamic range isn't called for.
Moreover he has never heard my system so where does he get off telling me it's bad? Tosser, now that's one company director who wants to see his business fall flat.
Your refering to a Clarinetist turned marketing man.
MF is and always has been a marketing exercise. AM is not an electronic designer he is an ideas man looking for angles to sell things, he employs designers. He is another Ashley basically.
He has used some very good designers and then messed up those designs by substituting cheap components. I posted this before, his best designer he employed back in the 80's was Tim de Paravicini. Go to Heathrow and ask Tim about him and the products he designed for him like the original A1.
Richard,
Who do you rate as the best British designers still alive? - Guys who really know their shit and/or who have been responsible for innovative/landmark products.
My top two would be Glenn Croft and Tim De Paravicini, not forgetting of course our own resident valve guru Anthony Matthews, and maybe even your good self ;)
I'd probably put Mike Creek in there, and Roy Gandy of Rega, but I'm struggling to think of anyone else.
Marco.
Peter C currently of WD fame and Andy Grove.
Richard,
Who do you rate as the best British designers still alive? - Guys who really know their shit and/or who have been responsible for innovative/landmark products.
My top two would be Glenn Croft and Tim De Paravicini, not forgetting of course our own resident valve guru Anthony Matthews, and maybe even your good self ;)
I'd probably put Mike Creek in there, and Roy Gandy of Rega, but I'm struggling to think of anyone else.
Marco.
Very few who are innovative and most are shadow men kept in the background by the marketers / pretend designers. Tim is probably the most innovative Brit (with an Italian name :doh:).
The most unsung innovative designer is a Yank - Andy Rappaport - I think he is still alive, he should be anyway.
Very few who are innovative and most are shadow men kept in the background by the marketers / pretend designers. Tim is probably the most innovative Brit (with an Italian name :doh:).
Yes, one very similar to my own ;)
I've spoken to Tim and his parents come from Tuscany, just like mine. Italians just have so much class in all areas of life!! :lol:
Marco.
Peter C currently of WD fame and Andy Grove.
Excuse my ignorance, Neal, but who's Andy Grove?
Marco.
Filterlab
26-03-2008, 09:37
Excuse my ignorance, Neal, but who's Andy Grove?
Marco.
I think he's the chap that designs the Glasshouse stuff. He used to work for Audio Note too.
Ah... Cheers, Rob.
Audio Note - that's another manufacturer I rate highly. Perhaps their equipment is a little overpriced, though. It certainly sounds excellent.
Marco.
Ah... Cheers, Rob.
Audio Note - that's another manufacturer I rate highly. Perhaps their equipment is a little overpriced, though. It certainly sounds excellent.
Marco.
Arh! Peter Q another ex retailer turned marketing man. You don't really think he is a designer do you. If you want a laugh talk to Guy about him.
His skill - going bust and surviving more (company) crashes than Evil Knievel. Also he has a very good ability at acquiring company names and products.
Yes, one very similar to my own ;)
I've spoken to Tim and his parents come from Tuscany, just like mine. Italians just have so much class in all areas of life!! :lol:
Marco.
Yes they have extemely good taste in uniforms, real class :lolsign:
El Duce had soooo much taste :mental:
Prince of Darkness
26-03-2008, 14:13
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco View Post
Excuse my ignorance, Neal, but who's Andy Grove?
Marco.
I think he's the chap that designs the Glasshouse stuff. He used to work for Audio Note too."
Also designed the WD amps and most of the WAD amps, and the recent QUAD valve amps.
pure sound
26-03-2008, 15:29
I'd go along with Andy Rappaport based on listening to his old power amp a few times (Octave Research OR-1) Probably the best SS amp I've heard. Sadly he's moved onto grander things now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Rappaport
All in this series from my list will contain inf I remember, things I don't will have () around them. So if you know then post and I will edit this as a reference.
Albarry built amplifiers in the 1980's (dates). Started by Albert (Henshaw?) and Barry (?), hence the name, in Stockport Manchester as an adenda to their Hi-Fi Retail business called Bespoke Audio. They were also importers of Alison Loudspeakers from the US. They built a Pre-Amp Model (?) and stereo Power Amp Model M408 a set of Monoblock Power Amps model M1008 and finally an Integrated Amp model (?). Failed in the late 80's recession and due to lack of dealer support. Excellent products from designer (?) with a very smooth presentation and in the power amps a very advanced and interesting case design. Albert continued in the business selling stylii and carts from his home. The company is called Pinzan Needles.
Currently a set of the M1008s up at ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130208899921&ih=003&category=14973&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
Albert still does his 'Pinzan needles' business. The shop was called 'Bespoke Audio'.
Ed.
Albert still does his 'Pinzan needles' business. The shop was called 'Bespoke Audio'.
Ed.
Ta Ed - do you know Albert, have you a phone number. I haven't spoken to him for about 15 years it would be nice to catch up on things.
Albert's number is 01663 742695.
Ed.
I will come back to the heritage hi-fi companies latter, but I am in need of a new rant.
Loudspeaker Manufacturers.
Where do they think they get off!!
They think *they are* the industry and everyone else is just here to serve them and provide the means for their beauties to show how wonderfull they are. Well then if they don't sound wonderfull it is obviously the fault of - pick from many - the acoustic, source manufacturer, amplifier manufacturer, cable manufacturer, recording studio, pressing plant, the weather, the designers wife is at the wrong time of the month etc etc. Anything but their bloody awfull loudspeakers.
Plus they think the industry revolves around them and they are cutting edge technology, what a load of old poop. Speakers are so easy to make any bloke here could do it by just buying drivers from Wilmslow and using an old cupboard and a saw. And I will tell you what, they will probably sound better than 50% of the crap out there being foisted on us.
Anechoic chambers, computer modelling, digital design, space age materials - all justification for creating over complicated, over designed, over ego-ed, monstrosities. Speakers are simple, understand simple and they simply work or they don't, and what is the arbetter, well your good old lugholes. Now you have probably gathered from my rants that I am not a flat earth loving man, well by and large you will be wrong. I hate the BS of it, and the NLP, and basically the arrogance of the likes of Ivor T after making a fortune from a dead mans work, that just makes me boil. BUT flat earth concepts of source and subjective reasoning is still spot on. A speaker cannot perform unless the rest is right, and falls apart if what is before it is only partly right. But get source right then get amplifier then get cable right and a partly right loudspeaker will sing. There have even been retailers who get the system right and give you loudspeakers because in the past there were little marvels who sang like the devil for next to nothing - JPW - Diamonds etc. Put some of the over designed monstrosities from the likes of BMW and Kef on the end and you likely have just a flat fart.
This concept applies to many things in life and is very true of my other love Tai-Chi. In terms of structure if your feet are wrong then everything else is wrong no matter how right it is. Think of your feet (your root) as source - you centre as amplifier - your arms are the loudspeakers - the sinues and bones are stands and cables. Well without your reference (root) and your power (centre) what comes out of the hands and arms is weak energetically, it may be hard but it has no power.
There are analogies all over many different aspects for this.
So please can we have some manufacturers of loudspeakers back in the UK that just try to be simple, not trying to over power us with their technical excellence, as it is just another industry bullshit. Speakers are simple - keep it that way - to improve go for quality not design quantity. Stop killing cabinets with over damping and design freaks (like snails). Just go for rigidity and coupling. Stop killing amplifiers by designing crossovers that make ridiculous phase changes by over complication, too many legs, too many component, too steep a filters. Stop killing the music by blocking the good work done by source and amplifiers from ever even meeting the air, because you want to show your design skill.
Answer - lets get some good UK speakers back, the Yanks are overtaking us in good simple design, look at Zu for one - get (original) JPW and Royd back into production for a start that will help. Just ask Jerry if he can find a modern speaker to compete with the good oldies. And stop buying speakers and then trying to get everything else to match them. Like starting a race standing on your head, complete nonsense.
May I present, for your viewing pleasure:
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw1a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw2a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw3a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw4a.html
May I present, for your viewing pleasure:
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw1a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw2a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw3a.html
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/wd25ahfw4a.html
Better but still not good.
Why not try to design a cabinet that needs no damping, it can be done, damping is a cure not an essential.
Why not design a bass / mid driver than needs no filtering to be relatively flat. It can be done, crossover filters are a cure not an essential.
Why not design HF drivers to only need a blocking cap, it can be done, croosover filters are a cure not an essential.
Hmmm..... sounds like you're saying "why not design an Epos ES14" (you'll have to ignore the foam inside though)!
:lolsign:
Hmmm..... sounds like you're saying "why not design an Epos ES14" (you'll have to ignore the foam inside though)!
:lolsign:
You still don't understand. Nothing is essential not even the design process. If I could grow a pea that played music what would be the point of designing and building *equipment*.
Arse about face - cart before horse - design for the sake of design - justification of job title and salary.
Start at the begining with your source (unless you want to change that and then you have real politics and another set of fun entirely). LP - CD - Computer - Tuner. OK now do the minimum necessary to reproduce that source at the level you need it. Everything else is just so much BS.
Eh?...
It was just a light hearted reply to your previous post where you say "why not design...." quite a lot!
The ES14 is just such a speaker, apart from having a bit of foam inside!
I give up....
Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 01:40
Stop killing the music by blocking the good work done by source and amplifiers from ever even meeting the air, because you want to show your design skill.
Answer - lets get some good UK speakers back,
You've got speaker design experience don't you? Here's an idea. Why don't you come up with some BS Free designs that the average DIY'er can put together without special tools, then post those designs FOC on the net?
Let's see what you come up with for in three categories - < £200/pr, < £500/pr and < £1000/pr
If a few of the other forum members chipped in we could build the £200 design and put it to the test. It would make an interesting bakeoff, don't you think?
You've got speaker design experience don't you? Here's an idea. Why don't you come up with some BS Free designs that the average DIY'er can put together without special tools, then post those designs FOC on the net?
Let's see what you come up with for in three categories - < £200/pr, < £500/pr and < £1000/pr
If a few of the other forum members chipped in we could build the £200 design and put it to the test. It would make an interesting bakeoff, don't you think?
So you want to give me more work - well do it your bloody self.
If you were capable of reading and understanding the thread you will see that my point is that you do not need designers. In fact more often than not if they get involved they mess it up as the process is "entirely" subjective. Buy some drive units, bolt them in an old cupboard and then listen. If they don't work properly then change them, change the cabinet, change the drivers until it does. What you get then is a simple loudspeaker that sings. Usual way if it doesn't work straight off is to compensate for it not working. Instead of stopping the illness in the first place they try to cure it. So now you put in damping panels, foam etc. You put in filters and many legged crossovers. YOU COCK IT UP! You end up with a music strangler.
If you want complete simplicity then buy a Fostex full range and mount it on a piece of marine ply, open baffle. As simple as you can get, and it works, it is not perfect but it doesn't strangle the music.
I see the old chesnut "music strangler" has raised its head again :lolsign:
Only pulling your leg - I know exactly where you're coming from. You're making sense, but perhaps generalising too much (again).
Marco.
Ali Tait
30-03-2008, 12:41
Doubt you could get cheaper/simpler than this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m8fbnShPcw&feature=related
Regards,Ali
Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 14:29
So you want to give me more work - well do it your bloody self.Do you know, for someone into the purity of Eastern martial arts you aren't half aggressive.
Buy some drive units, bolt them in an old cupboard and then listen. If they don't work properly then change them, change the cabinet, change the drivers until it does. What you get then is a simple loudspeaker that sings....and a big pile of redundant cabinets and drivers, not to mention a gaping hole in the wallet
:lolsign:
Chris Frost
30-03-2008, 14:42
Doubt you could get cheaper/simpler than this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m8fbnShPcw&feature=related
Regards,AliThat's ace. Now all the guy needs is to make a tripod for under a Dollar (or does he really have only one hand ;) )
Filterlab
30-03-2008, 16:52
...If you were capable of reading and understanding the thread you will see that my point is that you do not need designers....
...If they don't work properly then change them, change the cabinet, change the drivers until it does. What you get then is a simple loudspeaker that sings. Usual way if it do...
I'm sorry to say this Richard, but that IS designing - be it reactively rather than proactively.
jandl100
01-04-2008, 07:26
Well then if they don't sound wonderfull it is obviously the fault of - pick from many - ...... the designers wife is at the wrong time of the month.
Bit sexist, that, Richard! ;) Supposing the wife is the designer. :)
Jerry,
I think Richard is currently having 'a wee mood', after his recent hissy fit with Chris. Normal service should be resumed shortly ;)
Marco.
Filterlab
01-04-2008, 19:17
:D
The big squeeze is on, fun and bargains for everyone.
For those non ebay watchers who haven't noticed, the retailers are jumping on ebay to try and shift stock, and prices are plummeting. If you pay full retailer whack for something at the moment you are daft, 30% discount will become the norm as they steadily go bust.
Linn dealers are trying to offload stock, which is very interesting, as it is known the company has problems. Even some Naim dealers are panicking.
But it is trade ins and old stock that is mostly being put up and is also mostly going up with no reserve, and going prices are 50% less (equivelent) than last year I estimate.
So the process starts, I will enjoy watching it.
Well I'm not surprised at all, even those prices are more than some of the stuff is worth.
Also it's good to be able to buy hifi now that doesn't use any of those "magic" interconnects.
Welcome back, Richard! :clap:
Marco.
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