View Full Version : My Third “Techie” – well the last of them!
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This is my 3rd Technics project and it will encompass all I've learnt to date, so will be my ultimate Technics Deck.
I was looking at what options are available for an upgrade platter. I didn't want to spend the large amounts (up to £1,000) for a commercially available Platter/Bearing combination.
What I do have is one of these Pro-Ject RPM9 decks I purchased cheap off fleabay.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_001.jpg
It has a 38mm thick Acrylic platter and a sturdy 10mm ceramic tipped spindle running on an inverted bearing. This bearing set up seems to be rated quite highly. I wonder ............
I looked at the compatibility of the two designs, the overlaid parts can be seen here:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/bearing-platter-assembly.pdf
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_003.jpg
Having established that the Technics motor requires very accurate alignment of the parts I started with the spindle assembly. I took an old Technics bearing and cut off the bottom section. The bush bearing was knocked out of the top part with a drift. The bush measures O.D. 12mm and I.D. 8mm so the 10mm ProJect spindle wouldn't fit. I just happened to have a couple of meters of Aluminium extrusion lying around that was O.D. 12mm and I.D. 10mm, perfect. I cut a small piece from this and pressed it fully into the housing in a vice, it was a tight fit. The ProJect spindle was a close sliding fit on the inside diameter, I couldn't have asked for a better combination. The Technics boss could now be centred exactly on the new spindle/base.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_004.jpg
The Technics boss was glued (epoxy) and screwed into position while centred on the spindle. Once set the spindle was removed from its base (grub screws) and the nose cut off the Technics part, leaving just the motor location features attached to the ProJect spindle base.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_005.jpg
Three through holes dia 2.5mm were drilled in the base to take the Technics motor retaining screws. These thread cutting screws were tried on a scrap piece of Alloy and seem to work with this diameter hole. I de greased the assembly and gave it a coat of Black etch primer. I had to mask the location faces as the fit with the motor/PCB is so close that the paint thickness may have prevented it from going together.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_006.jpg
This is my test bed for the project, there is little point in making a plinth till I have proven the parts all work together. The open access allows measurements to be made easily, when establishing clearances etc. and of course it can be modified or adjusted more easily if required.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_007.jpg
The platter components laid out. I tapped the Acrylic to accept M4 machine screws which will secure the magnet. The Brass adaptor to the right was made for me by a local model maker, it slides over the existing brass bush and is secured by grub screws. This is machined very accurately, centres the magnet and provides a platform for the position detection hub at the correct height.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_008.jpg
The parts went together well, a very close fit with no play at all. I had marked the orientation of the sensor hub in relation to the magnet prior to removing them from the Technics Platter. I glued the sensor to the adaptor in the correct alignment, if necessary this can be adjusted by loosening the grub screws in the adaptor and rotating it.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_009.jpg
The test bed has the motor PCB and regulator installed, I used a strip of Aluminium as a heat sink.
Ran into a bit of a problem, I purchased the PCB off Fleabay and it turns out to be quite a late version off a Mk5G. At some point Technics have changed the multi pin socket that connects the Start/Stop & 33/45 buttons, because the socket on the board is incompatible with the plug on the switch harness off a Mk2. Doh!
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_010.jpg
I lowered the new Platter into position with everything crossed. There was no crunching or grinding of coils, it went on smoothly and the magnet spins freely between the coils and the metal shield.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_011.jpg
Well it certainly looks the part, the semi transparent nature of the textured Acrylic allows you to faintly make out the shape of the magnet and PCB which I think looks kind of cool, especially when the platter is spinning.
All I have to do now is rig up a power supply, solve the control harness socket issue and it should power up.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_012.jpg
I removed the receptacles from the connector on the control harness and clipped them direct to the pins on the board. I heat shrinked every alternate connection to prevent them shorting. For the PSU, I couldn't wait for the correct leads and connectors to come through the post so I hard wired it for a trial. It powered up and runs perfect. The only tweak necessary was to give the brake about a quarter of a turn on the adjuster, this platter is 38mm thick Acrylic and weighs 3.5Kg which is approximately twice that of the stock Technics Platter.
Well that's the drive principle proven, I’d better design a deck to put it in.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_013.jpg
This is the deck mocked up in a CAD package. The taller platter means the arm has to stand on a block to bring the cartridge up to the right height. The plinth is going to be plywood this time and I am chamfering the edges to make it look slimmer, it’s actually 76mm thick. The "Terminator" Arm will be installed and this now has the new mounting base fitted, which will allow me to experiment with different wand lengths. Construction can start when I get my hands on some decent Birch Ply.............
Once again excellent work Ken- a very interesting and well thought project Sir.:clapclapclap:
Do keep us posted on how it goes.:)
Another totally inspiring modification.
I hope the end result sounds as good as it looks.
DarrenHW
13-03-2014, 18:08
Outstanding!
Why are you using ply for the plinth? I'm quite surprised, thought you'd have cast another concrete plinth after the success with your last. I take it you'll have to laminate your own 76mm sheet? If so how will you clamp it? Will you veneer the sides?
Great engineering, very ingenious! One thing looking at your test setup, I can't help thinking the COG of the platter is a somewhat high. Would it be possible to machine a relief into the platter base and accommodate the drop of the platter rim...
Looking forward to seeing this project develops
Great engineering, very ingenious! One thing looking at your test setup, I can't help thinking the COG of the platter is a somewhat high. Would it be possible to machine a relief into the platter base and accommodate the drop of the platter rim...
Alternatively the platter does not have to be that thick. There could be some merit in keeping measurements (weight of platter and center of gravity) closer to the original spec. Either way it does look like we are watching The Ultimate Techie evolve.
Hi Darren
I considered concrete - I love to work with it as its so stable when set. Trouble is this design has a lot more mass than the last one and I could barely lift that one precicely when decked out with delicate arm and cartridge in place. I have to set my deck up on the kitchen table then lift it into position on top of the rack which is situated in my chimney breast. Not much head room and very easy to bang into something and damage things. So I decided to go for plywood. It will probably be veneered as painting the end grain on plywood is a waste of time, you can get a piano gloss finish but after a few months the laminations and joint lines start to show through. If I do veneer I will be going for a very high quality finish, better than anything else to date.
I considered the lightweight concrete approach using Pumice stone as the aggregate and was prepping for that but the shape I am working on has some undercuts that makes casting pretty difficult with my basic facilities.
The lamination will be x4 layers of 18mm + x1 of 3.6mm = 75.6mm this is available at a local store and allows the right hights for bearing mounting and platter height without having to do a lot of routing. I will be clamping each profile in place while glue dries, not sure which type of clamps yet. I have a few and I can borrow a few off my brother.
I will have to work out all the fixings (t-Nuts) required and place them in the back of the sheet (counter bored) before glueing it in position, so a bit of thought required.
Hello Qwin.
Your design is very original, I like much
Also I like much the solution that you have taken for the bearing.
Regards
In a few days it will start modifying the arm of series of 1200 following your modifications.
Neal/Andrei
Not quite that simple, if the platter is lowered the magnet is lowered which means the PCB/motor and bearing has to be lowered which means the base has to be lowered to accomodate it, so you don't gain anything except lift a wall up around the platter, the physics remains the same.
Its only taller than the Techie by the difference in height above the magnet which is 23mm.
On the other hand it has an inverted bearing so the point if contact for the thrust bearing (centre of rotation) is well inside the platter/mass and above half way. The Techie thrust (centre of rotation) is considerably below the platter/mass.
Its a bit like trying to balance a stationary spinning top, compared to balancing a cymbol on a pencil, so as I see it the centre of gravity is considerably better than before. Its physical height above the plinth or table top does not matter to any great extent given the mass of the plinth, its the relationship with the bearing point that matters. Otherwise anyone building a taller plinth is raising the centre of gravity. Thats my take on it anyway.
It wasn't a problem on the project deck and I don't see it being one when transfered to here, its just a different approach and some would say better. :)
Edit: Apologies Neal I see you meant machine the platter away. I don't have the equipment for that, but in principle it could work as the spindle can be lowered by the same amount in it's housing to keep the magnet/motor heights correct.
Edit: Apologies Neal I see you meant machine the platter away. I don't have the equipment for that, but in principle it could work as the spindle can be lowered by the same amount in it's housing to keep the magnet/motor heights correct.
Yes, that's what I was trying to explain with my poor description :doh:
Manuel - the arm mods make quite a difference, it performs very well afterwards.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_014.jpg
Completed a couple of parts. The plywood construction of the plinth means a separate heat sink is required for the regulator, I saw a piece of extruded heat sink on Fleabay, it had various protrusions but when all these were cut off it left a simple profile I could work with. The doughnut shape is for mounting the bearing, it fits on the underside of the plinth and spreads the load, preventing the screw heads from biting into the ply. These will get a coat of etch primer before fitting. The drg they are sat on is one of a series of Acetate overlays I use during construction. These help when marking out and when checking for correct positioning of inserts etc. against the PCB and original Technics Chassis.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_015.jpg
The plinth is being layered up in 18mm thick plywood sections. The bottom section has four M6 T-Nuts installed to accept Isonoe feet, which I will be fitting at a later stage as an upgrade. The second section has M3 and M4 T-Nuts to fix the PCB, Regulator and cable clips in place. The T-Nuts are fitted into counter bored holes so they don't stand proud, these two sheets will be glued together back to back trapping the fixings inside.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_016.jpg
The two bottom sheets of ply have been glued together using PVA adhesive.
The insert locations all had screws fitted while the sheets were clamped up, to stop surplus glue squeezing out and filling the holes. The fixings on the underside will of course also accept the stock Technics feet. I used 8 F-Clamps around the edges and a bucket full of lead ingots weighing about 40Kg was placed in the middle to press it down while the glue dried.
Please keep the updates coming.
It's always interesting to see your projects unfold. Again, this one looks very well thought out.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_017.jpg
The third section is seen here clamped in position. It is an odd thickness of 21.6mm which was necessary to get the overall height and clearance under the platter correct, I made this by gluing an 18mm and a 3.6mm sheet together. This combined thickness then had a hole cut through using a router before being glued and clamped into position.
Before adding the third section I routed a hole for the bearing and a slot which has round over edges both sides and is for cable entry.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_018.jpg
The underside of the fourth (Top) sheet ready to fit. Three M5 inserts fitted to secure the Linear Tone Arm. The hole routed in this sheet is smaller than the one in the previous sheet. This is because the platter is a smaller diameter than the stock Technics, but the PCB requires the larger hole for it to fit. To stop you being able to see under the platter and in to the well, the top hole has been made smaller. I chamfered the bottom edge to give a better looking step from one size to the other.
Ken, full marks for the colour co-ordination of your clamps. Also I must confess that the thought crossed my mind that when drilling the center hole you accidentally went all the way through your outside table!
This really is great to follow.
:lol::lol::lol:
The hole for the brolley in the outside table is about the same size.
I managed to borrow enough clamps for the job, I only had four myself.
I was going to fit Isonoe feet as a later upgrade, but it would be an unnecessary hassle, so I went ahead and ordered a set like these:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_019.jpg
Fantastic stuff Ken. A man can never have too many clamps.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_020.jpg
With the top section glued in place you can see the undercut on the main aperture.
I've squared up the sides with a plane and sanding block, I would have cut the chamfers that are marked out but its raining and I have to do this outside.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_021.jpg
As rain has stopped play, I did a test fitting of the bearing and platter.
It sits square as it should with a 5mm gap all round, the gap will come down to 3.5/4mm when the veneer and lacquer are applied. The smaller hole in the top sheet of ply has worked and you can't see into the well.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_022.jpg
Managed to cut the chamfers, the hand held circular saw I used was a bit blunt but it eventually chewed its way through. It's about ready for a trial build and a check on the scales for how the weight is distributed.
samurasa
31-03-2014, 21:54
Hi Ken
Great looking project and I´m really inspired b your work!
At the moment I´m building my second techie plinth also out of plywood. Although mine will have the original top plate and the plywood is just the outer shell of the plinth and thought of filling it with concrete like your first techie. I will start my own thread of my techie projects in time but the plywood inspired me when working with the first one and had to do the second in the meantime when my first ones top plate painting is done. Next phase is PSU and reg building with your pcb´s :) Plywood is really sturdy and its possible to get plain plywood looking really nice (http://www.kotiverstas.com/keskustelu/index.php?topic=10680.0) with some wood wax.
What kind of finish are you going to put on this one?
-samurasa
Managed to cut the chamfers, the hand held circular saw I used was a bit blunt but it eventually chewed its way through.
Andrei: Do me a favour Ken.
Ken: Sure, what?
Andrei: Count your fingers.
Hi Samurasa
Look forward to seeing your project.
The PSU and Regulator make a big difference, you wont be dissapointed in what they do.
One of the reasons (There were many) that I went for plywood this time was to keep the weight to reasonable levels so that I could use Isonoe feet. Concrete would have been way to heavy for them.
I ordered some veneer today for mine - American Black Burr Walnut triple A grade, its about ten times more costly than anything else I have used and there will be just enough to do the job, so it has to be right first time. Bit nervous about using it as the panels all fit in one particular pattern and one wrong cut into an overlapping piece will ruin it. I plan on matching all the grain on all four sides and right round to the base. If you could imagine a cloth laid over the deck with the sides all tucked underneath thats the effect I am trying to achieve but from the rigid sheet. It should look like the plinth is one solid piece of wood if done right, the Burr pattern will take on the depth of the deck and become three dimensional. Well thats my plan anyway.
I have found a different source for my veneer and the hot melt adhesive comes as a seperate sheet and is clear so it shouldn't show at the joint lines. The previous iron on I used came pre glued with a yellowish hot melt. It's a real pain to get a clean joint with this, without a witness line showing along the edge, particularly on darker woods like Walnut.
I am contemplating how to finish it, either Danish oil topped with Polyurathane Varnish. Or cellulose sanding sealer topped with Acrylic Lacquer.
The Lacquer gives a very clear and deep shine, which can have any light scratches it pickes up during its life polished out with auto restoration products.
The Danish/Poly gives a rich colour but is difficult to repair and can't be buffed up.
I seem to learn new skills every time I tackle one of these projects and I do like to push the boundary's. :)
:rfl:
Nice one Andrei - came through unscathed, but did manage to stick a scalpel in my finger this afternoon while trying to trim a splinter in the ply and eat a pie at the same time. No harm done - the pie was not hurt. :D
Audio Al
01-04-2014, 02:23
Lovely Jubbly
Nice inspiring projects you do Sir ;)
Thanks Al
I would like to think I've shown a few alternative things that can be done to a Techie and at reasonable cost.
It takes time to put the story together with pictures etc but I think its worth it, as I remember when I started modding, the projects on the web forums were my insperation and I learnt a hell of a lot by watching other peoples efforts come together. ;)
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_023.jpg
I struggled to find a piece of hardwood to make the spacer for the Tone Arm and postage prices for a web purchase would be expensive. I ended up buying a small, end grain chopping board from Argos (£8.99) my branch is only a couple of miles away. It was exactly the right thickness and the grain orientation means it is very strong under compression, which is ideal for the spacer so I cut a piece from that. I routed two slots for the bolts, this allows me to take advantage of the full 20mm cartridge adjustment in the head shell, I can have the cartridge in any position and still get the alignment correct due to the adjustment available in the new front to back base slots on the Arm, they previously ran left to right. Having slots, rather than holes in the spacer means it can move with the arm and always keep the same relative position for cosmetic purposes.
Setting Son
04-04-2014, 17:18
Lovely work as usual, Ken.
Thanks Lee
Update:
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_024.jpg
The electronics and arm have been fitted, so all the threaded inserts lined up as they should. You can see the heat sink I produced for the regulator, this stands on 4mm brass pillars. The PCB is on 15mm x 8mm dia Nylon pillars, you can see the harness has been soldered direct to the connector pins at bottom right, the PCB can be removed with the leads still attached as the cable entry slot has been made large enough for the multi-pin connectors that attach to the PSU to fit through. The right corner of the board tucks under the plinths top aperture, there is just enough room to access the fixing screw. Because I modelled the whole deck on a CAD package I was able to plan this level of detail before any work was started. If you look at the block the arm is sitting on, its right hand face lines up exactly with the top edge of the chamfer in the plinth, just as it does in the earlier CAD rendering of the proposed deck. Working with a 3D CAD model shows up any design issues before you make the parts, so you can tweak the design in advance. For instance, it’s no coincidence that the pillars for the PCB are exactly 15mm tall which is a standard size for off the shelf parts, I tweaked the assembly to create that height and also so I could use standard multiples of plywood for the plinth, avoiding unnecessary machining. I downloaded the CAD package which is a trimmed down student version, but it still has some reasonable functionality and most importantly was free.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_025.jpg
The deck fired up ok so no mods required. I fitted the Isonoe feet, trust me they are under there and got the deck up on the scales. I bought four sets off Fleabay for under a fiver each, that was the price including delivery and a set of batteries was included with each. The spread of weight is very irregular. the rear left foot sees the most weight the front left sees the least with a difference of 506g (0.506Kg) the other two fall between. I will have to see if I can address this and get them closer together, its not as straight forward as just putting a weight equal to the discrepancy on that corner because it has a knock on effect on all the other values as well. Just adding the 800g record clamping weight reduces the difference between front and rear left feet to 437g so a bit of experimenting is required. I am not looking for exactly the same figure on each foot, because a different type of mat or a thicker/heavier record would throw this out, approximately the same, to allow roughly equal loading on the feet, is all that is required. ;)
potatoha
07-04-2014, 11:16
Fabulous pro-ject! ;) Really well thought out and meticulously executed I see. If you're not doing anything with the rest of the Pro-ject, I was wondering if I could buy off the motor for my own diy project?
John - Unfortunately I sold the Motor and Tone Arm last week and cartridge a couple of weeks prior.
With the reasonable price I paid for the Pro-Ject deck and the very good prices the above items brought in when sold on, the Bearing/platter only stand me at £50 so it has made it a very economical conversion/upgrade.
potatoha
07-04-2014, 19:00
John - Unfortunately I sold the Motor and Tone Arm last week and cartridge a couple of weeks prior.
With the reasonable price I paid for the Pro-Ject deck and the very good prices the above items brought in when sold on, the Bearing/platter only stand me at £50 so it has made it a very economical conversion/upgrade.
Ah, one step too late. Ebay search then I guess... Cheers Ken.
Rather than adding weight, can you not subtract weight? I have in mind drilling a, say 18mm, hole underneath. It would be close to the corner - but not close enough to affect the structural integrity of the entry point where the feet are attached.
Andrei - The deck would end up like swiss cheese.
The Ply is reletively light so you have to remove a lot.
To give you some idea, I sat a 2lb weight on the front left corner and it still didn't bring it up to match the rear left.
I am thinking of boring a 25mm hole and filling it with lead, maybe several holes will be needed, it may prove to be impractical and I might have to give up on the whole idea. I am giving it some thought, possibly a combination of adding and subtracting will be the way to go?
Veneer arrived today.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2014, 23:32
Ken - a fundamental foot question(!?) if you don't mind?
Do you think you are really going to need to use those feet?
You have a very different type of plinth now, one that the idler folks successfully use with rather less sophisticated supports (i.e. ones that are not weight critical). I think you'll do fine without them myself. Just use something that will allow you to adjust enough to get the whole thing level.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Chris - I know where you are comming from.
I have had great results just using 50mm diameter Sorbothane semi-spheres, my top shelf is adjustable so the deck is leveled with that.
I really just got the Isonoes because of all the hype people were giving them here. But they are based on a sound principle so I didn't take much persuading, its similar to what SME did with their suspended turntable and DJ's have been supporting Technics decks on platforms strung on bungie rope for years.
I used to think a huge mass was required for a plinth but I'm not so sure these days. After hearing a very nice Garrad 401 on a similar plywood thickness I decided a medium mass and suspended feet was the way to go with this project. If you think about it, the Isonoes turn the Techie into a suspended deck. The definition being a rigid sub cassis with the bearing/Platter and Arm suspended on springs or other elastic medium of some form. Wheather the plinth it is suspended from is a seperate box or simply the shelf or isolation platform it is sat on is for the most part irrelevant. So the Techie would fall into this description if you class the whole plinth as the rigid sub chassis.:eyebrows:
I have been a bit pre-occupied for the last few days trying to aquire a set of Celestion 66 monitors, but when I get back to it, if the balancing is going to chop up the deck too much I may just forget about it and go with it as it is. It will be no worse and probably better than the stock Techie weight distribution as it's weight naturally sits more on the rear left foot and with the on-board PSU/Tranny sitting in that corner it is going to add to this bias.
I'll have a further play with some weights and see what happens.
WOStantonCS100
08-04-2014, 21:29
How will you be sorting the controls, Ken? Boutique control box? ;) Or, something else? Keeping the original switches/push buttons or using substitutions?
Very nice work, by the way.
Hi Biff - I will be using the PSU box from the concrete deck which has the Techie original switches in the roof.
I have taken all the parts including the main PCB and including the PSU and Regulator upgrades from the concrete deck.
The reason this project came about was that I had offered Vic at Trans-fi a few ideas for minor improvements on the "Terminator" arm and he introduced these into production. One of these ideas was to rotate the base fixing slots through 90 deg, thereby allowing adjustment of the wand length/cartridge position by using the ability to slide the arm back and forth on its fixing/s.
I got the very first part when it was made and that's what's shown on the deck. Because of the different bolt pattern required for the new arm base (only if like me you use multiple fixings) I had to make a new plinth. I had meantime developed a motor conversion/upgrade using a Pro-Ject platter/bearing combo that also required a new plinth design, so I combined both features into this new plinth which will probably be my ultimate and last Technics deck.
I have probably taken things as far as you can go in terms of DIY modding, there is only the PCB/motor and Tranny/switches remaining from the original deck, everything else has been changed. But the heart of the deck is still the Technics Direct Drive Sytem and for me that has always been the one aspect that wont change.
WOStantonCS100
10-04-2014, 06:36
One of these ideas was to rotate the base fixing slots through 90 deg, thereby allowing adjustment of the wand length/cartridge position by using the ability to slide the arm back and forth on its fixing/s.
Excellent!
I may just go ahead and make a new armboard with slots so I can do something similar with my Terminator. An easy arm setup just got even easier. Cheers!
The spread of weight is very irregular. the rear left foot sees the most weight the front left sees the least with a difference of 506g (0.506Kg) the other two fall between. I will have to see if I can address this and get them closer together, its not as straight forward as just putting a weight equal to the discrepancy on that corner because it has a knock on effect on all the other values as well.
Just buy eight yellow dot squash balls and sit them in rubber pipe seals:
http://cyberphotographer.com/technics/squashballs.jpg
Then move the balls around under the plinth until it's level. You'll need more balls under the heavier side, obviously. You raise a side by moving balls towards that edge, and lower by moving them towards the centre. The number of balls controls net damping factor. That's what I do with my Garrard plinths and they isolate beautifully. It may seem an under-engineered solution, but you will struggle to beat it. Looks good and unobtrusive from most angles too:
http://cyberphotographer.com/garrards/deck1complete/2.JPG
http://cyberphotographer.com/garrards/deck2complete/plinth2deck1/4.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zX611b7pHwU/TY8JDiuiaMI/AAAAAAAABIg/Qttar0qA9Ks/s400/Landspeeder-thumb.jpg
OK - I didn't build the last one.
I am thinking of boring a 25mm hole and filling it with lead...
http://cyberphotographer.com/garrards/deck1incomplete/ballast.jpg
If you're in the UK, bear in mind that I have been informed that casting lead is totally illegal unless you have a license. Other countries may have similar law.
If you are allowed to do it, it goes without saying that proper ventillation and toxicity precautions are required. That said, a baked bean tin sat in a small wood fire makes a good smelter, and one of those plant pots with a hole in the bottom makes a good pouring guide.
[.
If you are allowed to do it, .
If a free born Englishman wishes to cast lead on his own land he should go ahead and do it. 'If you are allowed' indeed! ;)
If a free born Englishman wishes to cast lead on his own land he should go ahead and do it. 'If you are allowed' indeed! ;)
That England is long gone. We are about to elect a prime minister who calls Che Guevara a hero. Learning to cast lead in a basement could come in handy.
http://youtu.be/w8egE4x9Djo
rubber duck
12-04-2014, 17:25
Good grief! What next? A return to the right to pour industrial waste into our drains (and water ways)? While we're at it, why not bring back asbestos!
Good grief! What next? A return to the right to pour industrial waste into our drains (and water ways)? While we're at it, why not bring back asbestos!
Bloody Grauniad readers! Don't worry, the unions have made sure we don't have any factories, so that's not a problem now. The one that really bothers me is that you can no longer get a properly made new silk top hat ;-)
Richard - As I've allready paid out the not inconsiderable sum for the Isonoes and gone to the bother of fitting inserts in the deck to accept them, then this is the rout I will be taking and I am just looking to optimise there use. I would think the squash balls work very well, I found solid sorbothane semi-spheres to be excellent isolators.
Re: the lead balast - They do say that we probably only have one original idea in a liftime, everything else has been done before, even if we wern't aware of it - great minds think alike :D I have a small furnace and a cast iron melting pot and laddle from when I used to cast my own lead weights for deep sea fishing, so the process would not be a problem. As for the legality, I would imagine large scale industrial smelting being a concern, but I think you can still buy the moulds for making your own weights, so that would be strange if that were the case and I can't see every roofer that uses lead or every vintage car repairer that uses lead as a body/seam filler having a license. They all melt scrap into ingots for re-use later or for weighing in at a scrap yard, I got my last supply from a roofer, admittedly about ten years ago.
I'm not going to make too much of an issue of the balancing, but I will see if things can be improved without hacking my plinth up to much, I have the veneer at the ready and this is the only thing from preventing me finishing it.
Yes, I sold my isonoes when I found that squash balls worked well.
The purpose of my lead inserts was to add inertia rather than balance. That plinth was a bit on the light side for the heavy and wobbly 301 motor. I screwed and glued the lead inserts in place to ensure they are rigidly coupled to the plinth. Sound propagation and reflection in plinths is a complex issue.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_026.jpg
The deck has had three lead weights inserted. These were made from thin wall chrome tubing filled with molten Lead. I had these lying around from my sea fishing days. I just cut a length of tube matching the weight required and dropped this into a bored hole partially filled with body filler, when the weight was pressed in the filler oozed up and out of the holes and was then levelled with a palette knife. So the weights are completely encased and bonded to the plywood. The balance is not perfect but much better than before, each foot sees nearly 3 Kg and the max variation is within 6% of this load and most importantly if you measure the gap between the foot and the base they all measure the same.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_027.jpg
Started the veneering process, it's American Black Burr Walnut.
Spent ages thinking about how the pieces would be cut from the sheet. I ended up making paper templates and laying them out on the sheet, just to make sure they would all fit butted up together, this was essential to get a continuous grain pattern over the surfaces. When it was all laid out I only had 50mm extra veneer on the length and 5mm on the width so no room for error. I found the Burr much harder to work with than ordinary Walnut, it's brittle and cracks easily.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_028.jpg
Got a few more pieces on, the pattern running across the panels seems to work well so it was worth the effort.
I previously used iron on veneer that had the hot melt glue already applied to the back, it was a creamy yellow in colour and I found it difficult to disguise the joint lines on edges, especially noticeable on darker woods.
This time I used plain veneer and a separate sheet of clear EVA hot melt, that came on a backing sheet. You tack it to the back of the veneer with an iron, peel off the backing and iron it on to the job. The film of glue is a lot thinner and combined with the clear colour makes a neater joint.
The wood grain looks drab at the moment, eventually it will get a coat of Danish oil. which will really lift the colour.
This is gonna look fabulous Ken :drool:
The Grand Wazoo
18-04-2014, 00:33
I think we will all be stunned by how that will look after oiling. Make sure you put some real elbow grease into burnishing the last coat of oil - effort there pays real dividends.
Chris - yes plenty of elbow grease used already. I am going to use Rustins product line and start with their neutral grain filler thinned with their Walnut stain rather than turps to get a colour match (their recommendation) then after rubbing down (again) several coats of Danish oil to penetrate the wood and lift the colour. The final top coat, subject to a test piece proving compatible will be Rustins Plastic Coating. This is a clear varnish with a catalyst activator; it sets rock hard in 2 hours. This coating is designed for furniture, dinning tables etc and they even do a rubbing compound for it so it can be burnished to a mirror finish. That's the plan anyway, subject to no reaction with the Danish oil, this should give a very durable finish. :)
The Grand Wazoo
18-04-2014, 09:50
My preference would be to leave the oil as the top coat but just work it and work the bejeezus out of it, to get the required finish but that's just a reflection of my personal feelings about wood. A plastic coat is much more practical I know.
Either way, it's going to look fantastic!
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_029.jpg
That's the veneer all done, the pattern wraps round to, and includes, the underside chamfers, the base will be Black to match the well. This has had a second coat to cover up my scrapings, made when trimming the veneer around the aperture. I will have to leave it for now as the grain filler won’t be delivered till after Easter and it really needs it. The burr veneer has cracks and pin holes, which are part of its make up, they will all have to be filled before oiling.
Gordon Steadman
18-04-2014, 16:54
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_029.jpg
That's the veneer all done, the pattern wraps round to, and includes, the underside chamfers, the base will be Black to match the well. This has had a second coat to cover up my scrapings, made when trimming the veneer around the aperture. I will have to leave it for now as the grain filler won’t be delivered till after Easter and it really needs it. The burr veneer has cracks and pin holes, which are part of its make up, they will all have to be filled before oiling.
Nice bit of grain matching there - looks great. Looking forward to seeing this finished.
DarrenHW
18-04-2014, 17:21
:clapclapclap:
I nearly balls’d up the veneer :eek:
I hadn’t read the instructions fully for the filler/dye.
You only add the dye to the grain filler if you are going to dye the whole thing afterwards, which obviously I'm not, don't want to degrade the nice natural look of the wood. Good job I did a tester before I tackled the deck, it stained the wood around the filler. If I’d scrubbed the filler across the grain it would have coloured the veneer. The filler is too light in colour to use out of the tin.
No harm done - I will do what I've done in the past – Give the whole deck a good coat of Danish oil to bring out the colour and sink deep into the wood, keep applying it till it stops soaking it up then wipe off any surplus and let this dry fully overnight at the very least. Then put some Danish oil on the veneer and rub with some fine wet or dry abrasive till it works up a paste from the wood, then use this to fill the grain. Let it dry for 24hrs then rub down with some very fine wet or dry and a little Danish oil to remove any smears of paste and clean off with a lint free cloth. Finish with a couple of coats of Danish oil. When dry you can add Polyurethane varnish on top if you want a deep gloss finish, or leave the Danish for a more natural look. I will be using a two pack catalyst varnish over the Danish which dries very hard and tends not to sink over time. It can also be polished with rubbing compound, so any minor scuffs picked up during use can be polished out. You can't use rubbing compound/T-Cut on Polyurethane varnish.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk///Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_030.jpg
The deck has had a couple of coats of Danish Oil applied with a lint free cloth and it certainly brought out the colour. This shot was taken outside and it still looks quite vivid, indoors the darker grain looks almost Black.
One more coat and it will be ready for the varnish - trying for a piano finish on this one.
Gordon Steadman
29-04-2014, 12:26
Looks great:cool:
keiron99
29-04-2014, 12:52
Fantastic workmanship. Love it.
Just got an e-mail from Rustins, their Plastic Coating/thinners is not compatible with the Polyurethane in the Danish oil, they said it was an agressive product and would act like paint stripper on most finishes, :eek: though it would go over some epoxy and celulose finishes.
So that leaves my fall back position - you allways have to have one - and use clear Polyurethane varnish, I will thin it for spraying with some pure gum terpentine. I've used this before, on a CD storage cabinet I made about 15 years ago and that still looks great, so I know that it works. :)
Gordon Steadman
30-04-2014, 11:20
Just got an e-mail from Rustins, their Plastic Coating/thinners is not compatible with the Polyurethane in the Danish oil, they said it was an agressive product and would act like paint stripper on most finishes, :eek: though it would go over some epoxy and celulose finishes.
So that leaves my fall back position - you allways have to have one - and use clear Polyurethane varnish, I will thin it for spraying with some pure gum terpentine. I've used this before, on a CD storage cabinet I made about 15 years ago and that still looks great, so I know that it works. :)
Thats a pity. However, I have no problems with polyurethane at all, as you say, it gives a good durable finish. Its all about how its applied. I have been doing some antique work lately and just ragged on some water based varnish. After about ten thin coats, it just looked like French polish. This was good as the rest of the furniture was finished that way.
Can you let me know where you get your veneer again? Its a bit difficult to get good stuff over here. I have a speaker project coming up that I want some good stuff for. Thanks.
Gordon Steadman - I got my last veneer (Burr) from www.originalmarquetry.co.uk
They have all kinds of marquetry products/tools and this is where I got the clear iron on hot melt as a seperate sheet. It has made the joints invisible. ;)
In the States they do rubb on Poly varnish, I think its just a little thinner so it doesn't drag on the cloth.
Gordon Steadman
30-04-2014, 11:59
Gordon Steadman - I got my last veneer (Burr) from www.originalmarquetry.co.uk (http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk)
They have all kinds of marquetry products/tools and this is where I got the clear iron on hot melt as a seperate sheet. It has made the joints invisible. ;)
In the States they do rubb on Poly varnish, I think its just a little thinner so it doesn't drag on the cloth.
Thanks.:)
Applying the Poly varnish is a slow process, it takes a few days to harden enough to be rubbed down - even when rubbed wet - without clogging the paper.
Got several coats on and it's starting to look pretty good - several more needed. It rained slightly this morning, otherwise it would have had another coat. I find it is less windy first thing on a morning and fewer flies to land on the job as I'm having to spray it outdoors.
It’s been a while since I posted any progress, the holidays got in the way and I have been splitting my time with my Celestion 66 loudspeaker renovation. I got down to it though and the finishing post is in sight. :)
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_031.jpg
The plywood base has been painted satin black using a roller. The aluminium ring which stops the bearing screw heads biting into the ply was painted and the bearing fitted. The Isonoe feet have been fitted, by design these are mounted as close to the deck as possible with only a few millimetres clearance when fully loaded. This is purely for cosmetic purposes as I didn't like the look when the plinth was raised too high off the ground.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_032.jpg
The Polyurethane varnish has been applied to the veneer. I think it was seven coats in total which I applied using a small compressor and gravity feed gun. It took a lot of effort to get the finish to the desired mirror quality gloss. The last three coats were all supposed to be final coats but as I was spraying outside, I was plagued by dust and flying critters landing on the wet surface. I ended up getting up really early when the air was still, not a breath of wind and the flies had not got out of bed. This did the trick and I got a good final coat. I rubbed the surface between coats with 1200 grit used wet, its important to use a sanding block if you want flat reflections, you won't get this using just your fingers. I took the shot outside and that's a telegraph pole you can see reflected on the right. I let the varnish have at least three days drying time between each rub down and re-coat and a week for the final coat to harden before assembly.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2014, 11:28
It’s been a while since I posted any progress, the holidays got in the way and I have been splitting my time with my Celestion 66 loudspeaker renovation. I got down to it though and the finishing post is in sight. :)
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_031.jpg
The plywood base has been painted satin black using a roller. The aluminium ring which stops the bearing screw heads biting into the ply was painted and the bearing fitted. The Isonoe feet have been fitted, by design these are mounted as close to the deck as possible with only a few millimetres clearance when fully loaded. This is purely for cosmetic purposes as I didn't like the look when the plinth was raised too high off the ground.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_032.jpg
The Polyurethane varnish has been applied to the veneer. I think it was seven coats in total which I applied using a small compressor and gravity feed gun. It took a lot of effort to get the finish to the desired mirror quality gloss. The last three coats were all supposed to be final coats but as I was spraying outside, I was plagued by dust and flying critters landing on the wet surface. I ended up getting up really early when the air was still, not a breath of wind and the flies had not got out of bed. This did the trick and I got a good final coat. I rubbed the surface between coats with 1200 grit used wet, its important to use a sanding block if you want flat reflections, you won't get this using just your fingers. I took the shot outside and that's a telegraph pole you can see reflected on the right. I let the varnish have at least three days drying time between each rub down and re-coat and a week for the final coat to harden before assembly.
Wow, that looks amazing. Can't wait to see the final photos, with it all put together.
Regards Neil
Gordon Steadman
24-06-2014, 11:35
Great finish you have achieved. Most don't realise the effort required not to mention the patience.
Thanks for the kind words chaps.
The next few slides are pictures of the completed deck.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_033.jpg
As I’d done a trial build before varnishing the deck everything went together without a hitch.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_034.jpg
The slots in the arm base work perfectly, you can just see one of the fixing screws which is not quite at the end of it's slot, this is the same distance as the cartridge from the end of the head shell slots. I can position the cartridge anywhere along the head shell and by using the adjustment in the arm base still align the stylus with the centre-line of the platter spindle. This feature allows experimentation with the effective length from the arm pivots to stylus tip.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_035.jpg
I completed a basic alignment of the arm/cartridge and did a power up to check the platter actually rotates.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_036.jpg
Everything works as it should so next step is to try it in the system.
Congratulations Ken!
Beautiful project and also beautiful finishing.
Spectral Morn
24-06-2014, 18:40
Thanks for the kind words chaps.
The next few slides are pictures of the completed deck.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_033.jpg
As I’d done a trial build before varnishing the deck everything went together without a hitch.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_034.jpg
The slots in the arm base work perfectly, you can just see one of the fixing screws which is not quite at the end of it's slot, this is the same distance as the cartridge from the end of the head shell slots. I can position the cartridge anywhere along the head shell and by using the adjustment in the arm base still align the stylus with the centre-line of the platter spindle. This feature allows experimentation with the effective length from the arm pivots to stylus tip.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_035.jpg
I completed a basic alignment of the arm/cartridge and did a power up to check the platter actually rotates.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_036.jpg
Everything works as it should so next step is to try it in the system.
Beautiful work
Regards Neil
Wow - that's beautiful, just beautiful! Well done Ken.
Sweet mother of god... It looks jaw-droppingly fantastic!!!!!! Wow! Just Wow!
:D :D :D :D :D
:) :) :) :) :) :)
I know it will sound even better than it looks - eagerly awaiting news.
samurasa
24-06-2014, 20:58
Beautiful work!:stalks:
I´m really hoping this really is not your last one!
The Grand Wazoo
24-06-2014, 21:06
Fantastic!
You need to be veneering that power supply box though.
My giddy aunt! That is a work of Art.
costerdock
24-06-2014, 22:21
Beautiful work - you are a real artist.
DarrenHW
25-06-2014, 06:13
Nice work Ken, looks amazing :respect:
How does the bearing / platter / plinth compare to your last Techie? I appreciate it's near on impossible to evaluate each component individually without being able to swap them, but I'd be interested in your opinion on what difference the plinth has made? :)
Thank you all, I appreciate the thumbs up and encouragement throughout.
Chris – Veneering the PSU box is a step too far for me,:D it sits on the shelf below the turntable with other black boxes, like my DAC so looks at home there.
Darren – Like you say, difficult to say which bits are doing what to the performance but I suspect the plinth is as good as the concrete one and I liked that one a lot, it was miles better than the stock item.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech3/Tech3_037.jpg
I set up the deck in my system. Pro-Ject say this platter is designed to be used without a mat, I tried it bare and with a felt mat and preferred it bare. The Terminator arms on the fly VTA adjustment came in handy for quick back and forth comparisons. Because I've made quite a few changes in one go, it's impossible to say which of the changes is having the biggest impact and they need to be assessed as a package. So I'm comparing my old deck - Concrete plinth, Sorbothane feet, modified stock bearing and stock platter. With this new deck - Plywood plinth, Isonoe feet, Pro-Ject bearing and platter. Both decks use the same DIY external PSU, internal regulator and the same linear tracking arm and of course the same Technics Direct Drive System. To me there is no contest, the new deck is better by some margin and my guess is that it is mostly down to the new bearing/platter combination but I have no direct evidence to support this. The sound has a rightness about it, a solidity which comes across in the bass and yet a warmth in the mid range that was some how missing before, timing is precise and the treble is clean. Normally I hear highs and lows in the presentation of my decks, some areas emphasised more than others but here it seems very even handed. That's not to say it isn't dynamic or that it's boring quite the reverse and the sound stage is wide and deep. It's only had a few hours listening but I can say without hesitation that it's the best deck I've ever owned. It may be possible to squeeze some more magic out with further VTA optimisation and possibly by adding an Achromat. Either way I am really pleased with the performance, I can finally move on to other areas of my system which now need urgent attention to bring them up to the standard of the turntable. :cool:
Floyddroid
25-06-2014, 20:34
One of the most enthralling threads i have ever read. What a fantastic turntable. Congratulations.
Thanks Steve, if you get round to organising NEBO4 then it will be a toss up as to whether I bring this deck or the Celestion 66's :D
I can finally move on to other areas of my system which now need urgent attention to bring them up to the standard of the turntable. :cool:
If you were any other person, I would say that would be impossible...
But somehow I know you can do it. :D
Thanks Jim - That's a very nice arm your working on by the way. :)
Update
Just a little more feedback on how the deck is performing:
As a complete system I would say the Isolation is better than on my old Concrete deck. I tried playing the lead in, or between tracks (no music) on a decent (quite) record and with the volume set reasonably high. If I tap hard on the front right corner top surface of the plinth with a finger nail, there is barely anything picked up by the cartridge and played back through the speakers, even with my ear a foot from the drivers. On the concrete deck with the stock Technics bearing/platter the tapping was picked up quite noticeably by the cartridge and played back at an amplified level that could be heard any where in the room. There is nothing transmitted via the linear arm in either case as the air cushion completely isolates the arm wand from the plinth so it's playing what comes through the plinth/bearing/platter and back through the cartridge. Note that I am playing the new deck with the record placed directly on to the Acrylic platter without a mat, it sounds good this way but I haven't ruled out trying an Achromat in the near future.
I originally set up the new deck with a Goldring 1042 MM cartridge played through a Graham Slee - Gram Amp II SE phono stage. It sounded ok but I was a bit dissapointed it didn't sound better than the concrete deck. I moved back to my Denon (LOMC) DL-301 II played through my DIY battery Phono stage which is what I last had set up in the concrete deck and to say the new deck improved would be a huge understatement. When I dialled the VTA in on the fly it turned to something special and is a tremendous improvement. It is now letting me hear what my newly aquired Celestion 66's are capable of. Note that both cartridges have had the same (small) amount of use.
One thing I have noticed is that fine, line contact stylus, like in the Goldring lift a little more detail from the record but they are incredibly sensitive to surface noise, dust, scratches etc. I much prefere a good elliptical stylus like the Denon which is far more tolerant of surface noise. When comparing the two set ups, at times you would think I was playing different coppies of the same record the Goldring came accross as really rough and noisy but the Denon sounded like a good copy. As most of my records are pre-owned this is an important factor and out weighs the slight loss of detail which I wouldn't hear anyway due to the hash in the background. New records might be a different story but there is no contest in my mind when playing older stuff, stick to an Elliptical tip. ;)
I took the deck to the NEBO4 bake off and was amazed at the sound it produced.
It played through several combinations, but when going through Alan's (337alant) Paradise phono stage and diy pre/power combination and hooked up to my Celestion 66's, it started to shine.
It showed up the weak links in my system at home though, which needs upgrading badly to allow the deck to perform at it's best.
I will be keeping this TT and have pleanty of scope to upgrade my amp and phono stage, which will then allow me to enjoy what it can really do.
This was a very rewarding project, I have a unique deck both in appearance and engineering and the sound quality has exceeded my expections.
One happy chappy :D
belloire
18-09-2014, 16:38
tis a lovely thing Ken. much nicer in the flesh than i had anticipated :) and as you say, unique. that and the fact you made it must make it a pleasure to own.
would have liked to put it through my phono as a comparison to the paradise and firebottle :) (and the fact the system in the other room was a bit screechy, which was the amps not my cartridge.......)
Darren - Steve is talking about NEBO5 so that might be your chance.
Was yours the modified Audio Innovations phono stage?
belloire
18-09-2014, 21:03
Yeah, modded ai s200. Will probably be more modded by then too ;-)
My word!!! :stalks: I have just read this from beginning to end and I'm simply blown away by the level of resourcefulness, skill and craftsmanship on show here. You are a credit to our hobby and the forum Ken, very, very well done Sir, I salute you... :champagne:
British high fidelity
11-02-2016, 14:47
One of the most amazing builds I have ever seen, wow I'm totally lost for words, superb. Well done, WELL DONE
Firebottle
11-02-2016, 17:18
I didn't realise you were quite so talented Ken, hats off to your quality builds :respect:
I'm still amazed every time I see this.
Thanks folks, I've picked up quite a few skills doing these projects.
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