Technics SL-P1200 Pro CD Player [Archive]

The Grand Wazoo

11-03-2014, 23:44

I've found a review of the machine in a copy of Hi-Fi Answers from February 1987. It was written by JMH, so make of that what you will. I'm certain that there was at least one other review in the UK hi-fi press of the time, but I just haven't found it yet. HFN/RR offered it as the prize in a competition though!
Anyway, there's quite a lengthy description of the features etc and the upshot is that it he quite like it, but thought that the features that most people wouldn't use brought the cost up beyond it's performance level when compared to a simpler design (and a cheaper one, at that). Interestingly and not surprisingly I suppose, he noted that if the pitch control and wheel search systems were not bypassed, then sound quality plummeted to the level of a £200-ish player.

What is clear beyond doubt after spending considerable time buried knee deep in 27 year old magazines is:

that my allergies are still alive and kicking
any suggestion that this machine was available solely to the professional market, and not to domestic customers, is utter crap. Apart from the reviews, please witness Exhibit A, yer honour, an advert from Capital Cameras of 24-26 The Boulevard, Crawley, telephone no. 0293 543555, who advertised it alongside wares stacked, no doubt to to rafters, from brands such as Akai, Dual, NAD, Fisher, Pye, and Amstrad. Price - £699.95

I'll see if I can scan the article tomorrow.

MartinT

11-03-2014, 23:47

Yes please, Chris. Nice find.

Joe

11-03-2014, 23:50

any suggestion that this machine was available solely to the professional market, and not to domestic customers, is utter crap. Apart from the reviews, please witness Exhibit A, yer honour, an advert from Capital Cameras of 24-26 The Boulevard, Crawley, telephone no. 0293 543555, who advertised it alongside wares stacked, no doubt to to rafters, from brands such as Akai, Dual, NAD, Fisher, Pye, and Amstrad. Price - £699.95
[/LIST]

I'll see if I can scan the article tomorrow.

I've just been on the phone to them. They've still got a few in stock.

The Grand Wazoo

11-03-2014, 23:56

Now then young man, I know you're lying - they're closed on Tuesdays!

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 00:40

Well, I meant that I'd scan the review rather than the advert!
However if you'd like to see it, then I can do that too. The shop was hardly an exclusive high end boutique and nor was it selling into the pro market. It was just a box stacker - VCR's, audio gear, Atari, Commodore and Amstrad computers (plus floppy disks!) and presumably, if the name is anything to go by, photographic equipment.

Trouble is, my scanner is kaput, but I'll see what I can do. I'll take photos if necessary, which will suffice until I can do a proper scan.

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 07:53

I'll tell you what then Marco, I'll make you a deal: I'll post the advert if you remove your off topic comments above. It's a shame to spoil Martin's nice shiny new thread with this stuff.

Marco

12-03-2014, 08:08

Incidentally, as a point of note: I've been recommending this player to people for years, for good reason - it's all in the archive.

Marco.

Mr Kipling

12-03-2014, 08:17

I remember Jimmy Hughes reviewing it and it being generally available.

Capital Cameras… I rember Foxtronics. They had a good selection of gear right from £5 accessories. Them were the days…

MartinT

12-03-2014, 08:26

Yep, I used to pore over those ads when I was a skint student. There was something fascinating about those listings.

Reminds me: I have a few old issues of mags donated to me. I'll go have a look...

Macca

12-03-2014, 08:50

Interestingly and not surprisingly I suppose, he noted that if the pitch control and wheel search systems were not bypassed, then sound quality plummeted to the level of a £200-ish player.

.

I can say from experience that is a load of cobblers unless he had some really shit hot £200 player. Mind you it is Jimmy Hughes...

MartinT

12-03-2014, 09:47

Is there a bypass switch, Martin, or did he do some internal bypassing do you think?

Marco

12-03-2014, 12:06

I'll tell you what then Marco, I'll make you a deal: I'll post the advert if you remove your off topic comments above. It's a shame to spoil Martin's nice shiny new thread with this stuff.

Agreed and actioned. The purpose of my comments has now been fulfilled, so job done. Showz da ad then, baby! :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

12-03-2014, 12:41

I nearly bought the bbc version of this Cdp before I bought my TEAC I'm very glad I bought the TEAC but will always hanker after one of these. My main concern about this Cdp is fettling, there can't be that many spate parts floating around? :scratch:

Macca

12-03-2014, 12:42

Is there a bypass switch, Martin, or did he do some internal bypassing do you think?

Nah theres no bypass switch that I know of or have read of, unless it is some hidden feature no-one knows about. I think it was just sheer conjecture on his behalf.

Marco

12-03-2014, 17:49

Previously.........

Incidentally, as a point of note: I've been recommending this player to people for years, for good reason - it's all in the archive.

...and here we are, from 2008: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?750-Are-we-and-have-we-for-some-time-been-in-the-era-of-throwaway-CD-players&p=12963#post12963

Some folk may like to note this part in particular...

I used to sell them in the late 80s when I worked in the electrical department of a large well-known department store.

As they say: 'Game, set and match'.... ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 18:41

OK chaps, the scans are done but I'm going to have trouble making them viewable on AoS any time soon as I was only able to get them into pdf format. I know we can do pdfs, as we use them for The Knowledge, but I need Nick's assistance for that. In the meantime, I'll try to find a way of getting them into jpg format.

Marco

12-03-2014, 18:42

No worries, dude - take your time :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 18:46

I expect I could email them to someone who has the appropriate software to convert them to a jpg but my limited attempts so far have yielded some bad, bad results!

istari_knight

12-03-2014, 18:47

Whilst viewing the PDF you could hit Prt Sc, then paste it into paint & save as a Jpeg.

Rough but it works.

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 18:53

Nope, that was my Plan A - tried that ages ago and the results are shite!

MartinT

12-03-2014, 18:57

I could host them in SkyDrive as links, or convert them to JPG using Adobe Photoshop at a suitably high resolution.

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 18:58

That would be good Martin - stand by your email inbox.

MartinT

12-03-2014, 20:25

Here's the SL-P1200 Review. Excuse the size, but it was necessary in order to make it legible. Thanks to Chris for the scan.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7445/13111918893_1f56fe3a58_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13111918893/)
SL-P1200 Review (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13111918893/) by martinwtaylor (http://www.flickr.com/people/martinwtaylor/), on Flickr

MartinT

12-03-2014, 20:27

Showing the SL-P1200 listed at £699.95. Compare with an SL-1200 at £236.95. Thanks again to Chris for the scan.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/13111814865_d8d5cd111a_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13111814865/)
SL-P1200 Listing (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13111814865/) by martinwtaylor (http://www.flickr.com/people/martinwtaylor/), on Flickr

The Grand Wazoo

12-03-2014, 20:29

Thanks Martin.

The Barbarian

12-03-2014, 20:29

I dont understand what your obsession with this design is Martin?

Marco

12-03-2014, 20:33

I dont understand what your obsession with this design is Martin?

It sounds superb, dude - one of the best CDPs ever made from the 'golden age'! :)

My thanks go to Chris and Martin for proving a valuable point.... ;) Cheers, chaps!!

Marco.

MartinT

12-03-2014, 20:42

I dont understand what your obsession with this design is Martin?

No obsession, Andr'e. It's just the most interesting early CD player that I could get my hands on to try out, comes with a great reputation and could easily be moved on for what I paid for it. I want to play with it - pure and simple.

MartinT

12-03-2014, 20:47

Interesting that there is a pitch defeat, rather like the centre detent defeats the pitch circuit in the SL-1200 MK2. Copper foil and ceramic particle (Elna Cerafine?) capacitors bode well. The feet are the same as the turntable's and could be replaced with Isonoes.

I love the way its sound is damned with faint praise - the Denon has more "personality and aplomb". Makes me want the Technics much more!

The Grand Wazoo

13-03-2014, 00:02

A tiny piece more of the jigsaw to confirm that this machine was aimed at a broad base of customers. While I was looking for a full review of the player in question, I also found one of the SL-P1000, where the 1200 was mentioned and their respective places in the range were discussed. Here's part of the opening paragraph......and no, I'm not going to scan it!

HFN/RR Nov 1987.
Technics Aim High.
Audiophile sound quality with 'professional' ruggedness and features are the claimed virtues of the Technics' SL-P1000 CD player. Martin Colloms reports.

Compact disc flagships are in fashion, with models appearing almost monthly, so it seemed appropriate to embark on a series of feature CD reviews. Accordingly, this month we have the first contender from Technics, their £700 SLP1000. Their largest machine is in fact the uniquely styled SLP1200 which is built in a console form, and in addition to domestic use also finds broad application in DJ and broadcast systems due to its ergonomically designed control panel. In many respects, the SLP1000 is regarded as a close relative, in rectangular 'hi-fi' format.

istari_knight

13-03-2014, 00:16

Its a close relative alright, exactly the same machine but in a traditional box and minus a few features that are useless in a domestic environment.

Marco

13-03-2014, 00:33

Their largest machine is in fact the uniquely styled SLP1200 which is built in a console form, and in addition to domestic use also finds broad application in DJ and broadcast systems due to its ergonomically designed control panel.

Those six words in red say it all and proves, beyond question, that someone elsewhere is a pish-talker, par excellence!! ;)

Marco.

Macca

13-03-2014, 08:59

Thanks for the scan of that review, really interesting and it shows all of the trouble Technics went to to get maximum quality. it's the bit aboutthe defeat controls for the jog dial and slider that gets me - I think my version (Broadcast 'B') doesn't have them but there are so many switiches and buttons it is possible I have overlooked them. Will have to have a check.

Re: The comments about the Denon player having 'more personality and aplomb' - that is exactly what I thought when comparing the SLP1200 with my Parasound player. the Parasound has more character, no question, but the big advantage of the SLP1200 is that it is so neutral in character it just presents the music as recorded without any annoying artifice.

MartinT

14-03-2014, 13:24

It's arrived and looks in pretty good nick. I shall get it installed and warmed up tonight. Looking forward to hearing what it can do.

MartinT

14-03-2014, 13:25

it's the bit aboutthe defeat controls for the jog dial and slider that gets me - I think my version (Broadcast 'B') doesn't have them

This version (ASC) has a pitch defeat button right next to the top of the pitch slider.

RochaCullen

14-03-2014, 13:46

This version (ASC) has a pitch defeat button right next to the top of the pitch slider.

Do you mean a pitch control on/off switch as here:

http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz230/rochaCullen/SLP1200/DSC_1078.jpg

Macca

14-03-2014, 13:49

This version (ASC) has a pitch defeat button right next to the top of the pitch slider.

Yes I had a look last night and it does have defeat buttons for the slider and the jog wheel and they are both 'defeated'. Just shows you how much attention I pay to these things, I just stick a CD in and press play, me.

MartinT

14-03-2014, 16:01

Do you mean a pitch control on/off switch as here

Yes, that's the one.

MartinT

14-03-2014, 17:42

Two observations: it's built like a German submarine: bullet-proof and purposeful. Secondly, is that drive mech ever fast! From rest to playing the first track is about 1s. I thought the Pioneer PD-91 was fast but this is impressive. It does speak towards the sled assembly and servo precision in all three motors, good things in my book.

Will be listening when it's warmed up.

RochaCullen

14-03-2014, 18:50

Seems like you enjoy a bit of a build up, Martin. A bit of tantric CD player assessment. ;)

MartinT

14-03-2014, 21:34

Marco

14-03-2014, 22:10

Disappointing, dude. Hope you can get it sorted! In between its on-going issues, can you hear any hints of greatness?

Marco.

MartinT

14-03-2014, 23:01

I've been able to play most discs by persuasion: a series of play/pauses can eventually get it to work. Once it is working, it goes on working for that CD. It could be a few things but I'm wondering if the laser power compensator is dysfunctional, or the laser itself is too far down on power (end of life) but can just lock given enough time. There is always the possibility that the laser head has been changed but the settings not aligned with an oscilloscope.

I'll be brief about the sound as it's not altogether fair to judge it in this state. It's definitely a player of the high end with a transparent and neutral presentation, good frequency extremes, dynamic and detailed sound. It isn't quite in the Ayre's league in soundstage, especially depth, nor in wealth of detail or sheer slam. However, considering the difference in design age it's a truly superb player and, as I said previously, fantastically fast in its responses. It responded well to having those awful feet removed (the same ones as fitted to SL1210s) and replaced with the big squishy Deflex feet. I'd recommended either that or a set of Isonoes to anyone using one.

I'll report back when I hear from the vendor.

jandl100

15-03-2014, 06:59

I've been away a few days, so have missed the fun here.

A few comments about mine ...

- it has the defeat buttons for pitch, auto-cue and search. The 1st thing I did was turn them off so I have no idea if they affect the sound quality!
- mine was intermittent in ability to read a CD's TOC for the first few discs I tried, then it settled down and has been 100% ever since ....
- .... with the exception of some CDRs. I've not tried to play a large number, but of those tried it plays around 50%. So I'll be keeping alternative CD playback for those.
- I hear no lack of detail and subtlety. Quite the opposite, I would say it is excellent, exquisite even. One of my favourite CDs for hifi evaluation and enjoyment is a recital of solo lute sonatas. I've heard this disc on every single CD-sourced component that has passed thru my system for the last 15 years. The subtle delicacy of imaging and resolution is better than I have ever heard before, 'exquisite' as I said.
- oh, and it does the Big Stuff as well!
- some initial fettling of the footer arrangement (just metal cones - steel, I suspect - atop RDC cone cups) has increased imaging depth usefully, but it still is not a 3D holographic extravaganza. I need to play with this aspect some more - I look forward to the views of Isonoe footer owners.
- now that I am feeding it a purer mains supply than initially, any brightness is no longer apparent, it has excellent tonal neutrality.
- I think it is a superb CD player. :)

RochaCullen

15-03-2014, 09:49

Not a deliberate build-up, Nathan. I've got technical problems with it where it doesn't seem to want to track all my discs properly. I've been able to listen to it for a good while with a few discs - with some of them by stopping and restarting. Other discs are a no-go with constant skipping. I've formed an opinion of what I've heard so far but the player is not 100% stable. I suspect the laser might be on the way out. I've initiated a conversation with the supplier to establish what testing was done.

Hey Martin,

I know it might sound a little basic, but just check the lens and the rubber that surrounds it. The rubber can act like a trap and hold in some particles. I had this periodic skipping occur. I took the rubber off, cleaned the lens. Waited for everything to fully dry up. Then I dropped in CDs till it had one where it was able to read the toc. Then just hit play and leave it for a while.

MartinT

15-03-2014, 12:47

I've done all the lens checking and cleaning, Nathan. The good news is that a night of being left powered up seems to have settled things and the worst disc that I had for not playing is starting up fine, now. I'm going to get as much listening over the weekend as I can to really develop my thoughts, and then swap back to the Ayre for comparison.

Mr. C

15-03-2014, 13:52

Hi Martin

I have a few in the studio, one fully working, one hot rodded, and one for spares, my father had they left over from his studio.

At the their time they offered more fuller sounding presentation, a far more robust reliability, than the usual consumer products at that time.

I would suggest those seeking a more physdo analogue style of reproduction will gravitate towards them.

Using them in a current high resolution system does demonstrate their limitations (imho)

MartinT

15-03-2014, 14:00

Hi Tony

I tend to agree - however, in better listening conditions today I am hearing nothing in its limitations which make me want to stop listening to it. They are only small failings of soundstage, detail and dynamics. Before anyone picks me up on this, these are small differences between the Technics and the Ayre, which is the best disc player I know. That is a huge credit to the Technics which was designed before techniques like Minimum Phase reached commercial decks. It's a very listenable player.

MartinT

15-03-2014, 14:01

Looking huge next to the SL-1210.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7278/13156662294_9fa1ef0895_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13156662294/)
Technics SL-P1200 SL-1210 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinwtaylor/13156662294/) by martinwtaylor (http://www.flickr.com/people/martinwtaylor/), on Flickr

Marco

15-03-2014, 14:28

They were made for each other... Anywayz, you are now officially a Technics fanboi! :D

Marco.

Marco

15-03-2014, 14:33

Yo Tony,

I have a few in the studio, one fully working, one hot rodded...

Does the hot-rodded one work too, lol, and if so, how does it sound compared to the others? :)

Basically, what did the mods bring to the party, sonically and musically? Oh, and how exactly was it hot-rodded? Churz! :cool:

Marco.

MikeMusic

15-03-2014, 15:34

The Barbarian

15-03-2014, 15:47

It's not black

:D

User211

15-03-2014, 16:21

Well my first CDP was a Technics. It sounded terrible TBH and was easily beaten by the first 14 bit Philips CDP - at a 2 bit disadvantage!!!

Glad to hear they managed to make an OK one:)

Mr. C

15-03-2014, 17:10

Hi Martin

All I will say is its like listening to an LP12 with a Nait 3 and Kan's in comparison to a Belcanto CD2 with a stock psu but it is smooth and has no edges.

Things have moved on somewhat, however it is very listenable, is it a case of better or just different presentation?

If it was that good I would have one in the second demo room. Nostalgia just like listening to your favorite band 25 years on :)

Marco

You need to careful with these units, you can upset the stock sound even by changing a few basic resistors in the output stage.

I made three attempts to dragging kicking and screaming into the 21st century, it just doesn't want to go there, much better to give a service and some minor power supply upgrades and a couple of well run in Oscons. Seriously it is a sensitive beast it needs TLC not a heavy handed soldering Iron work out.

Reminds me of the very Early Meridian 200 series players but with more weight and slam.

Technics will be back in the UK as brand by the end of the year I predict.

MartinT

15-03-2014, 17:28

Technics will be back in the UK as brand by the end of the year I predict.

Really? Care to guess with what product? I think Panasonic made a mistake losing their high end brand, and look at what they're doing to their TVs by abandoning plasma manufacturing, too. It'll be interesting watching what they do next.

Mr. C

15-03-2014, 18:09

At the end of last year Panasonic invited a few select editors of various hifi publications from around the globe to Japan for a big insight into the relaunching of the brand which was due 12 months from that date, think like the current crop of Sony products and you will not be far away I believe.

Maybe Adam (Beobloke) could give more insight into this?

Marco

15-03-2014, 18:45

Marco

You need to careful with these units, you can upset the stock sound even by changing a few basic resistors in the output stage.

I made three attempts to dragging kicking and screaming into the 21st century, it just doesn't want to go there, much better to give a service and some minor power supply upgrades and a couple of well run in Oscons. Seriously it is a sensitive beast it needs TLC not a heavy handed soldering Iron work out.

Thanks for that, Tony. Interesting and noted... Judicious upgrades to PSUs, in any equipment, are usually always rather rewarding! That's largely what Audiocom did with my Sony, and the improvements gained were pretty incredible, so I'd suggest that if Martin is going to 'get serious' with the SL-P1200 then that's the area he should target :)

Marco.

jandl100

15-03-2014, 19:09

.... Reminds me of the very Early Meridian 200 series players but with more weight and slam.

Good God! - you're joking, Tony!

Those Meridian 200s were laid back dynamically & lo-rez --- easy listening or snoozeville, depending on your point of view (count me in the latter camp) --- nothing at all like the Techie 1200 to my ears!

Ah well. Vive la difference as they say. :)

Macca

15-03-2014, 22:32

Tony

I am wondering what you are using as a benchmark for the comparisons you are making?

Would be helpful to me as I am looking for a worthy replacement.

Mr. C

17-03-2014, 09:46

Morning Folks

@Jerry

My attempted point on Saturday was Jerry in a haphazard fashion sorry about that, was to say the Meridian is laid back and laced with mogadon though it has a nice tonal quality and some depth to the sound, the Technics pro CDP has the same traits but laced with an early style Naim CDS player power.

So think: slap you in face with a well worn velvet glove and some body, rather than Naim's old style presentation forced two dimensionality with no depth and interesting treble.

The Technics has balls and solidity, certainly not the last word in detail or subtlety or textural layering, however fun and party inciting, really all you need is a pair of large active atc/pmc's or adam's (if your ears are up to the job!) and a respectable pre amplifier and you have your own posh PA system ready to entertain the masses.

@ Martin

They are a fun and bouncy and will put on smile on your face in a big and juicy way, they make music exciting (in a naim style way but being easier on the ears). For me I like more to my music as well as the above traits.

My son has taken one of these units to Uni with him and he uses it most day's. His bedroom system he has an 7 year Wadia 861se, DartZeel 108 and a pair of Diablo's, which did not go to Uni with him lol!

The Belcanto CD2 is much more engaging sound and while it does not have the nostalgia associated with it produces a far more enjoyable sound that you can listen to for long periods.

@Marco

Indeed upgrading power supplies in digital equipment is a great place to start and will reap much benefits if implemented correctly.

By improving the power supply you are: improving the ripple current rejection, quietening the noise from the bridge rectifiers / diodes, improving smoothing / storage, lowering ESR, improving regulation and lowering the noise floor all positive things.

However when you obtain a certain level then the limitations of older equipment becomes very obvious, dac chip S/N, THD, specification of the components used in the discrete circuits, all of which will be exposed, thus leading you to upgrade further along the chain, to the point you have rebuilt the unit almost from scratch. Thus defeating the object of purchasing the unit in the first place!

I found very light upgrades, improved storage caps, quality by-pass, second trier performance bridges, localized decoupling around the dac section (With Oscons / Black-gates your choice) and ground plane references and digital voltage supplies to the digital section all helped, but needed to be performed one stage at a time otherwise you really upset the apple cart and let your self with a an issue to find out why.

The bottom line if you took this to its max, you would have player that was crossed with a naimified Copland 288 and a rock hammer. A seriously good Saturday night get the mates round for a beers machine.

Fun and entertaining actually an ideal Scalford player, for real listening falls a long way short, as back up and party machine 100%

jandl100

17-03-2014, 10:10

Fun and entertaining actually an ideal Scalford player, for real listening falls a long way short, as back up and party machine 100%

Maybe I just like to party! :hairmetal: :dance: .... in a classical sort of way :violin: :)

Marco

17-03-2014, 12:22

Morning, Tony.

@Marco

Indeed upgrading power supplies in digital equipment is a great place to start and will reap much benefits if implemented correctly.

By improving the power supply you are: improving the ripple current rejection, quietening the noise from the bridge rectifiers / diodes, improving smoothing / storage, lowering ESR, improving regulation and lowering the noise floor all positive things.

I concur with all of that, and indeed is confirmed by my own experiments in that area with the Sony, through investing significantly in modifications from Audiocom. I've therefore no reason to suspect that the Technics wouldn't similarly benefit, as I'm a great believer in marrying the best in old and new technology, in order to achieve the best of worlds. Indeed, my whole system has been built with considerable success on that very principle.

The fact is, the best electrical components available today (caps, resistors, etc) are vastly superior to the majority of their vintage counterparts, and so judiciously upgrading those, in an otherwise superbly engineered machine, such as the SL-P1200, is where real improvements can be made.

Similarly, aside from the very top CDPs produced today, the best players from the Japanese 'majors', produced during the golden age of CD, particularly in models where one of them set out to make a 'statement', in terms of their technological prowess, are with regards to of overall quality, head and shoulders above what's produced today, especially in relation to the all-important issue of transport quality. That is why marrying the two (the best of old and new technology) is capable of producing stunning results.

Quite simply, a cheap plastic DVD-ROM mechanism cannot reproduce music to the same standard as a dedicated CD-only transport, especially one built like a brick outhouse, designed from the ground up to deal effectively with vibration, and thus ensure that the 'operating environment' is such that it allows the laser to read discs with minimal errors, and here I'm not talking simply about noughts and ones, but rather that the correct 'infrastructure' is in place, in terms of noise and vibration control, in order to ensure that the integrity of the music signal is preserved, so that what issues forth at the end is believable sounding music, and not merely a poor facsimile of such.

Badly executed and noisy SMPS units, used in many of today's players, compared with the massively over-engineered linear examples commonly featured in the best vintage players (and one of the reasons why many are so heavy), are also another reason why the latter, sonically, have more 'balls' and are such fun to listen to. The fact is, CD players are a dying breed, having been largely superseded by file-based audio machines, and so out with of the high-end, manufacturers today, simply due to a lack of demand, aren't motivated enough to build-in the kind of quality it takes to make the most of CD, as a genuine high-quality audio format, which is why in the mainstream market today, we're left with the plasticy, tinny sounding, substandard devices that are completely incapable of extracting the most from CD.

However when you obtain a certain level then the limitations of older equipment becomes very obvious, dac chip S/N, THD, specification of the components used in the discrete circuits, all of which will be exposed, thus leading you to upgrade further along the chain, to the point you have rebuilt the unit almost from scratch. Thus defeating the object of purchasing the unit in the first place!

I know where you're coming from, and in some cases you're right, but done properly, with the *right* players, I've found no such limitations in modifying older equipment. I've tested my modified Sony CDP and DAC against some pretty serious high-end kit, not to mention music streamers, and its always held its own and often outperformed newer and much more expensive equipment. I'm sure that Martin, for example, and Mike Music who was also present at the time, would attest to how good the Sony DAC sounded, in comparison with the Ayre in Martin's system.

The very fact that I've had the Sony now for 8 years, and despite being able to buy (within reason) pretty much what I want, I've not been remotely tempted to change it for anything else, I think says it all! ;)

I would always champion the use and/or judicious modifying of older equipment that is good enough to deserve such treatment, as experience has shown that you can obtain very addictive musical results that way, which can escape a lot of modern equipment.

In my opinion, the Technics SL-P1200 is one such example, which is why I've been recommending it for years. Hopefully now, the bug has bitten, and if one of their owners here decides to go down the modification route (especially using someone, such as Mark Bartlett, who knows exactly what he's doing in that respect) they'll discover just how special a player the Technics really is...

I honestly believe that, once suitably modified, it is as capable of true greatness as its renowned vinyl-playing brother.

Marco.

Mr. C

17-03-2014, 13:15

Hi Marco

All I am going to say here is drive motor / laser and spares.

I am not sure if you chaps are aware, Daisy the company that supplies virtually all of the high end manufacturers will not be supplying ANY CD mech's as from the 31st of this month verbatim. Even TEAC (who make the best mech's on the planet) have no officially stop supplying OEM's so quite what DCS will be using now is anyone's guess?

Currently the following manufacturers are making dedicated CD mechanisms TEAC / PIONEER / STREAM UNLIMITED / Possibly Accuphase?

Currently I have a Krell 250 i/l in need of a pro 9 cd mech, if anyone can obtain a new one for under £400 let me know.

I have no problem is hot rodding older units at all, I mean I know of one gent with 22 bybees/ 10 super regs, N/C power supplies, trick clocks more Oscons that you can shake a stick at (over 120 and counting), uber voltage references, bespoke fully discrete output stages, etc in one of his Wadia's alone huge upgrade over stock, still a long way off a few other brands at less money.

Some units do take to upgrades really well, others you need to be more careful of, it is striking the balance.

Ultimately I know how far that player go can without spending silly money one it (from a customer perspective) and it still remains a great fun player, but just not in the league as some of the more accessible players form not too long ago.

I still have yet to hear a commercial available streaming device that can directly challenge even a £5000 quality CD player, The Lumin is good, but not there yet.

Anyway, I am sure your have one before the month is out Marco :)

Recently my personal Esoteric's have made way for newer units which have put an even bigger smile on my face.

MikeMusic

17-03-2014, 13:33

I feel even happier now knowing that Rega have 2 matched drives on the shelf for my Isis
:D

Marco

17-03-2014, 14:07

Hi Tony,

All I am going to say here is drive motor / laser and spares.

I am not sure if you chaps are aware, Daisy the company that supplies virtually all of the high end manufacturers will not be supplying ANY CD mech's as from the 31st of this month verbatim. Even TEAC (who make the best mech's on the planet) have no officially stop supplying OEM's so quite what DCS will be using now is anyone's guess?

Thanks for the info. However, I'm not surprised to hear that, as it simply confirms what I outlined in my previous post: namely that high-end CDPs are on their way out. I'll give it another 5 years, tops, before they become extinct.

The above, however, is less of an issue for vintage players, as folk will simply buy obsolete units for spare parts. In essence, in terms of the SL-P1200, there are probably enough of them around, acting as potential donor units, to keep the few happy who have intentions of modifying them.

I have no problem is hot rodding older units at all, I mean I know of one gent with 22 bybees/ 10 super regs, N/C power supplies, trick clocks more Oscons that you can shake a stick at (over 120 and counting), uber voltage references, bespoke fully discrete output stages, etc in one of his Wadia's alone huge upgrade over stock, still a long way off a few other brands at less money.

Lol! Sounds then that his attempts at upgrading haven't been, erm, entirely successful! :eyebrows: Still, if he's happy...

Some units do take to upgrades really well, others you need to be more careful of, it is striking the balance.

Spot on - and that's the key! You need to ensure that you're working on the *right* player that inherently has the correct core of ingredients, in order to make modifying it worthwhile, and thus be able to expose true latent potential. I consider the Technics, in that respect, as a suitable candidate.

Ultimately I know how far that player go can without spending silly money one it (from a customer perspective) and it still remains a great fun player, but just not in the league as some of the more accessible players form not too long ago.

I think your advice of not spending "silly money" on it is sound - far better to carry out modifications, in stages, as I did with the Sony. Mark always allowed me time to assess, along with any new components to burn in, the fundamental sonic benefits of modifications carried out, before going to the next stage, so that I knew what was doing what, and thus was happy with the results achieved up until that point, before going any further.

There was also a point reached when I felt 'enough was enough', where I'd achieved what I considered was a truly stunning sound, and so any further tinkering could've resulted in a backwards step. The secret when modifying something is in knowing when to stop, before you're creating something that's merely different (or perhaps worse), than fundamentally better. However, to do that involves knowing your system inside out, exactly what you're striving to achieve with any modifications, and trusting your ears implicitly when assessing that, which unfortunately not many people have the confidence to do! ;)

That's why I stopped short of filling my DAC, for example, with Bybees (settling instead for fitting just one at the critical final point of the output stage), which reduced noise considerably without 'bloating' the sound, and didn't have either my CDP or DAC cryogenically treated, both of which were recommended by Mark. The fact is, there's always a point in a recipe where one can overegg the pudding, and only experience teaches you to know when you've arrived there.....

The very same principles were applied when modifying my SL-1210 turntable, which turned out to be equally as successful!

I still have yet to hear a commercial available streaming device that can directly challenge even a £5000 quality CD player, The Lumin is good, but not there yet.

Anyway, I am sure your have one before the month is out Marco...

One what, lol? A streaming device? Not likely! It's not that I wouldn't like one. If nothing else, they're an excellent tool for introducing one to new music. However, I have other priorities at the moment (namely refurbishing one of the properties we own for rental). Besides, I'm extremely happy with my system at the moment, and so what funds are allocated for 'hi-fi duties' are largely spent instead on music! :)

I've heard some very good streaming systems (as I know you have, too), and would agree that the best CDPs (and here I don't mean most expensive, as I don't necessarily equate price with performance, especially in high-end audio, where one can pay well over the odds for simply a 'desirable badge'), but rather those whose designs have been well-executed, and so offer the highest SPPV, still lead the way in terms of hearing digital audio at its absolute best - but it can sometimes be quite close!

Marco.

Mr. C

17-03-2014, 14:39

Marco

The Wadia is pretty special and is easily superior to many so called high end brands, it would give you bass like you could only dream of with the Sony, the dedicated digi master filter does not use a brick wall filter but a bell shaped curve.

It took three years to obtain true high cd beating performance from the pc audio, but only with genuine red book 1.411Mps files (not ripped) and again genuine high resolution master files.

MartinT

17-03-2014, 15:03

Currently the following manufacturers are making dedicated CD mechanisms TEAC / PIONEER / STREAM UNLIMITED / Possibly Accuphase?

I know that the particular Pioneer mech used in the Ayre has been stockpiled by them and may even be out of production now. I've already had it replaced when it started skipping on reading.

Marco

17-03-2014, 15:05

The Wadia is pretty special and is easily superior to many so called high end brands, it would give you bass like you could only dream of with the Sony...

Lol... How would you know, as you've never heard one modified like mine! :eyebrows:

I should bring it down to your place, as I'd love to hear the Wadia. I'm sure that the experience would be fun, and also a learning curve for both of us ;)

It took three years to obtain true high cd beating performance from the pc audio, but only with genuine red book 1.411Mps files (not ripped) and again genuine high resolution master files.

Yup, I know you're a bit of an expert in that field, and so in that area I would trust your judgement. Vinyl, at its best, however, is still where its at for me, in terms of genuine musical realism! And yes, I know you disagree....

Marco.

Mr. C

17-03-2014, 15:45

Hi Marco

The Wadia resides closer to you than me, I suppose that I could be nostalgic s I do have a few examples of the Wadia around the place as I do have a soft spot for them, though only the models with the VRDS drives the later units remind me of DCS in their presentation all detail and matter of fact-ness (imho)

With regard to Vinyl it can and does sound superb with right set ups I would not even suggest otherwise, for myself the Vinyl phase by-passed my life so I do not have 25+ years of listening to the medium to make a continuous comparison.

I have two decks in my own set up, a SME 30 with a V arm and Transfiguration Orpheus - L and an Oracle Delphi Mk VI with Graham Phantom sig II thingy coupled to a special Oracle cartridge. Both do different things and do them well.

Personally I prefer the sheer realism of the digital, however the vinyl is delivers a special presentation which is very pleasing.

If we all liked the same sound life would be full of Meridian :D

Marco

17-03-2014, 19:28

The Wadia resides closer to you than me...

Really? Where is it living, then? :)

I suppose that I could be nostalgic s I do have a few examples of the Wadia around the place as I do have a soft spot for them, though only the models with the VRDS drives the later units remind me of DCS in their presentation all detail and matter of fact-ness (imho)

I totally agree, in relation to DCS kit - not my thing at all. I simply don't think that up-sampling produces musically natural results.

With regard to Vinyl it can and does sound superb with right set ups I would not even suggest otherwise, for myself the Vinyl phase by-passed my life so I do not have 25+ years of listening to the medium to make a continuous comparison.

I have two decks in my own set up, a SME 30 with a V arm and Transfiguration Orpheus - L and an Oracle Delphi Mk VI with Graham Phantom sig II thingy coupled to a special Oracle cartridge. Both do different things and do them well.

Personally I prefer the sheer realism of the digital, however the vinyl is delivers a special presentation which is very pleasing.

If we all liked the same sound life would be full of Meridian :D

Hehehe... Yeah, no worries with any of that. Your first T/T has shades of 'Blzebub' about it (did you copy him, lol?) However, I believe he now uses an A90 cartridge, which having heard an Orpheus on my own turntable, I can't imagine as being much, if any, of an upgrade.

Marco.

MartinT

18-03-2014, 07:00

I totally agree, in relation to DCS kit - not my thing at all. I simply don't think that upsampling produces musically natural results.

I don't like dCS kit much, either. It has little to do with up-sampling, though, which can sound wonderful.

Marco

18-03-2014, 08:04

You may be right, in terms of DCS, Martin. For me, they lack 'soul', just don't 'boogie', and so are the complete antithesis, musically, of your Technics and my Sony. However, as far as up-sampling goes in general, I'm afraid that it sounds far from wonderful to my ears.

Every time I hear a player that features it, the sound reproduced is imbued with a false 'sheen' - almost as if every note has been 'burnished', squeaky clean, to a point where music becomes tainted with a fake 'niceness'. There's a 'rawness' that the up-sampling process smoothes over, to my ears, which music needs in order for its vitality, 'get up and go' (and thus realism) to be preserved.

It's a difficult effect to put into words, but I can usually identify it instantly in all up-sampling players, and so more often than not, they're just not for me.

Marco.

jandl100

18-03-2014, 08:10

So how is your Techie cdp getting on, Martin?

Mr Kipling

18-03-2014, 08:23

Just to say when I looked at mine the laser was meeting some resistance towards the end of its travel. Giving the rails a wipe cured this. And the laser was used in the range down to the 111. And James has found the 720 uses the same motor drive panel.

Marco

18-03-2014, 08:44

So how is your Techie cdp getting on, Martin?

Indeed, and moreover, are you tempted to have it modified? :)

Marco.

MartinT

18-03-2014, 09:49

So how is your Techie cdp getting on, Martin?

I think, regretfully, that it'll have to go back. It has improved with warm-up, but is not reliable enough to guarantee playing any disc. I will publish my final views on its sound when I do some more listening and then put the Ayre back in place.

Marco

18-03-2014, 10:25

That's a shame, Martin, but alas it can be the nature of the beast with vintage players. Has the seller been receptive to the situation you're in?

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

18-03-2014, 10:29

A shame indeed but that's the problem with vintage kit.

Marco

18-03-2014, 10:39

Indeed, although thankfully [touch wood] it's not one I've yet encountered with the Sony. Would you believe that it's still using its original transport mech, which like the machine itself, is 25 old? :eek:

I bought the player second-hand on German ebay, so goodness knows how many hours use it had had by that stage (although it was, and still is, in mint condition), but I know that I've put thousands of hours on it in the 8 years I've owned it (it gets played on average for four hours a day), so I guess that's testament to one or both of two things: a) my luck and b) how well engineered these things were!!

To this day, it still reads the table of contents on CDs in a nanosecond, so it'll probably outlive me, and if not, I have a donor player ready to 'ravage', should I need spare parts :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

18-03-2014, 10:54

I bought my TEAC from german eBay as well :lol: Yep, mine was in mint nick. I remember some idiot of eBay uk wanting 650 quid for the same model as mine but without the remote, a button missing, dodgy transport, no original footers, manuals, or box. I offered him £400, which I later judged to be too much. In the end after flogging lots of excess hifi kit I ended paying £500 for a mint TEAC VRDS 25sx which had been super modified. I love the TEAC it sounds ace especially rigged upto my valve setup.

MartinT

20-03-2014, 19:40

I've been dealing with the friendly and helpful seller on eBay and we've agreed that I have no option but to return the SL-P1200. Shame, but the intermittent skipping persists and was worse today. It was, however, a very interesting experiment.

John

20-03-2014, 19:47

Well at least you gave it go. Good to hear that dealer been decent

MartinT

20-03-2014, 19:48

I've just played a couple of discs and then reverted to my Ayre player (C-5xe MP). That was very interesting as it was easier to identify the differences once I had become used to the Technics' sound.

The Ayre is bigger, bolder, has more clout, exhibits greater leading edge definition and has more texture and definition in the bass. it also has significantly greater soundstage depth. I maintain that the Technics is a great deck and very listenable, as others have stated here. However, unless there is some level of rework (and Tony suggests that yielding benefits is tricky), then there are other ways to obtain great sound for £400-500 in the used market. As a statement of ultimate 1980s technology, though, it is extremely impressive and has presence that few, if any, modern decks display. It's a cool machine!

The Barbarian

20-03-2014, 19:52

I'm with Marco tho with Sony machines, i have a couple very old Sony players that are still running on original mechs after many many hours of playtime, total reliability..

Mr Kipling

20-03-2014, 21:39

So, the Technics wasn't the Ayre Apparent, then. And it's a case of Ayre today, Ayre tomorrow. Nevermind. For the price it was it was only reasonable to expect it to function without fault.

istari_knight

20-03-2014, 21:52

Hopefully it'll go for a song when they relist it as "spares/repairs" :eyebrows:

Mr Kipling

20-03-2014, 22:03

Absolute pile of pants! Don't know why people buy them!

istari_knight

20-03-2014, 22:04

Absolute pile of pants! Don't know why people buy them!

:D

jandl100

21-03-2014, 07:14

The Ayre is bigger, bolder, has more clout, exhibits greater leading edge definition and has more texture and definition in the bass.

Yep, yep, that all ties in with your 'macho style' listening preferences, Martin. ;) Big and bold!

Personally, prissy wuss that I am :eyebrows:, I find the Techie quite acceptable in those aspects and I'm not bothered by such shortfalls.

... it also has significantly greater soundstage depth.

I agree with the relative lack of the 3D thing 100%. It's not bad, but it's not great either, and it does bother me a bit and for me is the Techie's major shortcoming.

What think you about the overall levels of fine detail / resolution? I'm still finding that pretty darn good in my setup, and it's an aspect of great importance to me! :)

Marco

21-03-2014, 08:55

I agree with the relative lack of the 3D thing 100%. It's not bad, but it's not great either, and it does bother me a bit and for me is the Techie's major shortcoming.

Trust me, Jerry, that issue will disappear with some judicious mods, a-la Audiocom. Some of the usual cap or PSU upgrades, which Mark usually applies to those types of players, would most probably sort it, and it shouldn't be too expensive either - perhaps £250? And then you'll have a player that can compete with ones produced today in the £2-3k arena.

When I bought my Sony I loved how it sounded in stock form, which was very similar to how the Techincs sounds. However, as fun and enjoyable as it was to listen to, it too had its limitations, in terms of overall finesse and what I would call 'fundamental hi-fi considerations', such as the "3D thing" you're referring to, but underneath all that I could hear the potential for greatness, which is why I bit the bullet and had Mark 'breathe' on it - and the results were stunning! :eek:

So, the question is: are any of the resident Techy CDP owners here (who own one that works) willing to 'go the extra mile' and find out what their players are truly capable of....?

Marco.

Macca

21-03-2014, 08:57

So, the question is: are any of the resident Techy CDP owners here (who own one that works) willing to 'go the extra mile' and find out what their players are truly capable of....?

Marco.

I think there is only Jerry left who has one that still works...come on Jerry get yer wallet out :)

jandl100

21-03-2014, 09:27

You know, I might just do that!

I'll use it for a while longer and see how it goes .... or if I sell it on AOS, maybe someone else here will have a go modding it. ;)

MartinT

21-03-2014, 09:46

Yep, yep, that all ties in with your 'macho style' listening preferences, Martin. ;) Big and bold!

:rfl:

Marco

21-03-2014, 10:04

You know, I might just do that!

I'll use it for a while longer and see how it goes .... or if I sell it on AOS, maybe someone else here will have a go modding it. ;)

Yup, no worries... One way or another *someone* has to have a go at modding it. Whoever does, will be in for whole world of fun - that much I can promise! :trust:

Marco.

RochaCullen

21-03-2014, 10:48

Yup, no worries... One way or another *someone* has to have a go at modding it. Whoever does, will be in for whole world of fun - that much I can promise! :trust:

Marco.

I'd happily get mine modded if the price was as modest as you mention. I would have to find out if Mark at Audiocom had the ability to realign and if needs be replace the laser first. I suppose I need to know this thing will keep functioning before I throw any more money at it. Is there any way you can find this out for us Marco?

Marco

21-03-2014, 11:17

Give Mark a call and talk to him! ;)

Website here: http://www.audiocominternational.com/ Tel: 01646 650046. Mark Bartlett.

Tell him you're a member of AoS and explain what you'd like to have done. The price I gave earlier would be for maybe a few high-quality cap and resistor changes at key points in the circuit where Mark thinks they'd be most effective, or for a couple of Bybee purifiers, fitted in similar positions.

That would give you a 'flavour' of what is possible, should you then decide to go for more 'full blown' mods, such as his superclock and PSU upgrade boards, etc.

I'd give him a budget of how much you initially want to spend and ask what mods would give you your 'biggest bang for your buck', and then take it from there. Mark can fix some things, but his speciality is in modifying fully-functioning equipment. However, he does have contact with some very good audio engineers, the service of whom he employs in situations where he is unable to repair something himself.

Give him a call, Nathan, and let us know how you get on :cool:

Marco.

jandl100

21-03-2014, 12:06

Yay --- go for it, Nathan. :thumbsup:

..... :popcorn:

It's the never-ending escalation of costs once you start to consider this sort of thing that bothers me.
It's OK for sensible folk, but makes less sense for a boxswapper. :)

Mr Kipling

21-03-2014, 12:25

Not getting yer wad out then Jerry. Pity. Is it as big as some would have you believe - or is that just an unsubstantiated rumour?

Martin, what's the reason for the terminal-ness of the one the shop you visit has?

What's these Bybee critters then?

MartinT

21-03-2014, 12:47

Before anyone spends a wad modifying these decks, I think Tony's observations on how they respond to mods should be kept in mind, as he has already done it.

Also, and I have the greatest of respect for Mark at Audiocom, the cost of a selection of mods (such as replacement clock, higher performance regulators, selected caps) will soon rise to way above what you might pay for the Technics deck itself. You need to know for sure that the outcome will be what you expect of it. I spent a large amount having my old Sony SCD-1 modded by Audiocom and it was worth it as the results were superb. What we don't know is what a well modded Technics sounds like.

Macca

21-03-2014, 13:19

Martin, what's the reason for the terminal-ness of the one the shop you visit has?

?

Logic chip gone doolalli. There is no cure and you can't buy them. You could get a donor and swap them over but even that is not straightforward (so I am told) and needs someone familiar with how it all goes together.

istari_knight

21-03-2014, 13:26

One could greatly improve upon the stock unit for under £10 if you can do the work yourself... The DAC>Analogue output stage are decently designed but it does use crappy 29p opamps, electrolytic coupling capacitors etc.

Replace the the M5328P's with LM5462's, bypass the output coupling caps & remove the parallel output filter caps. That costs a couple of quid, will transform the sound & is completely reversible... Its not rocket science.

Trust me those M5328P's are complete dogs.

MartinT

21-03-2014, 14:17

I did the same with my old Pioneer PD-91, James, replacing the boggo NE5534 op-amps with rather nice OPA623, which sounded a lot better.

istari_knight

21-03-2014, 14:43

It doesnt take much to improve these old players does it ? In this level of machine I think the aforementioned "mods" will improve the perceived sound quality more than power supply / regulation upgrades which are already pretty good... Technics didn't scrimp there, the analogue output stage PSU is large enough to power a 30wpc amp :D

Mr. C

21-03-2014, 15:18

Op amps in output stages of CD players and dac's you jest surely???

You mean you have not replaced these with a fully discrete I/V section ok now I am concerned:stalks:

istari_knight

21-03-2014, 15:22

I might consider it in an uber player I was intending to keep but no need in your average player... Modern opamps are very good.

Anyway, I was trying to highlight the fact that you can improve 90% of players for £10 and 30 minutes spare time.

jandl100

21-03-2014, 15:43

Well, I'm a complete numpty with a soldering iron, so if someone within a reasonable driving distance of Glos wants to get a bit of beer money and do the £10 mods, I have a Technics SL-P1200 CD player waiting to visit you! :thumbsup:

Mr. C

21-03-2014, 15:47

Hello James

I was just having a bit of fun with the forum, today's amps are incredibly quiet some as low as 2.5-4 mew volts and have fast transient times and large bandwidth and using a a bog dog converter board you can swap out op amps to your hearts content which enables you to select the i/c of your choice a touch of extra quiescent current but worth the effort.

The are in fact many CD player / dac's that use fully discrete i/v stages which would not qualify for the term high end.

A few years ago I designed some fully discrete SMT l/V stages on micro boards that could be used to drop over op-amps with minimum flying lead lengths a significant improvement over your usual suspects from the RS catalog.

Back to the Technic's CDP, I will offer my services with this project in the making I will provide the my time, the workshop equipment and insight into the project, some one supply the unit, we will work through the component list and I'll stick it together F.O.C.

I will keep a record and images and one it has been finalized and the owner is happy then you can look at a group buy.

Mr Kipling

21-03-2014, 18:03

Mr Kipling

21-03-2014, 18:12

Logic chip gone doolalli. There is no cure and you can't buy them. You could get a donor and swap them over but even that is not straightforward (so I am told) and needs someone familiar with how it all goes together.

I'd buy it just for the case and buttons, if they're ok.

istari_knight

21-03-2014, 18:56

That is a good offer, I'm sure Jerry will take you up on it !

Harman Kardon HD7300 is one such budget player with a discrete output stage.

MartinT

21-03-2014, 19:14

Back to the Technic's CDP, I will offer my services with this project in the making I will provide the my time, the workshop equipment and insight into the project, some one supply the unit, we will work through the component list and I'll stick it together F.O.C.

That's an extremely generous offer, Tony. I shall follow this with interest.

Marco

21-03-2014, 19:40

+1. Nice one, Tony, and it's appreciated. Let's hope folks that take up your offer :)

Marco.

jandl100

21-03-2014, 20:59

Back to the Technic's CDP, I will offer my services with this project in the making I will provide the my time, the workshop equipment and insight into the project, some one supply the unit, we will work through the component list and I'll stick it together F.O.C.

I will keep a record and images and one it has been finalized and the owner is happy then you can look at a group buy.

Well, I guess I have to give this generous offer a go, really, don't I! :)

Tony - I'll drop you a PM.

Marco

22-03-2014, 13:17

Please keep us posted of progress, Jerry! :)

Marco.

RochaCullen

25-03-2014, 12:15

Give Mark a call and talk to him! ;)

Website here: http://www.audiocominternational.com/ Tel: 01646 650046. Mark Bartlett.

Give him a call, Nathan, and let us know how you get on :cool:

Marco.

Well, I finally got around to it. I spoke to Mark, who was a thoroughly nice chap on the phone. I asked him about the possibility of upgrading the SLP1200 and he told me that audiocom ceased modding CD players, other than Oppo, about 2 years ago. He said that while the player could be made to sound better, the availability of spares, reliablity into the future of the transport etc., could not be counted on. His basic message was that for the cost that would be involved, when compared against what is available today for that kind of cash, he would recommend it. The difference, he mentioned, and reason why they continue to mod the Oppo players, is they have a ready supply of parts and a very reliable player that is used as an OEM product by many other manufacturers.

Am I disappointed, yes, but I expected to hear this. And Mark was very straight about the risks involved.

Really what I would like to do is find someone who is still able to service these players, so while I might not be able to turn it into an uber player, I can at least be able to maintain its current state as a very good player.

MartinT

25-03-2014, 12:53

Disappointing, Nathan, but understandable. I think the business model of modding other people's players must be fraught with difficulties - imagine if a fault of any kind develops, Audiocom would be blamed forever more.

The information about Oppo is of great interest as they are very well regarded machines in stock guise and must be superb with some judicious mods.

Kember

25-03-2014, 13:07

Really what I would like to do is find someone who is still able to service these players, so while I might not be able to turn it into an uber player, I can at least be able to maintain its current state as a very good player.

Nathan

I have used a person based in North London who has serviced CDPs for me and does a good, reasonably priced job.

I have never asked him to lampize or in other ways alter the interior but i know from conversations with him that he has done cap replacements etc. Just PM me if you want contact details.

Best

P

Mr. C

25-03-2014, 18:05

I certainly would endorse Mark's comments regarding upgrading customers products.

We only look a select few units these days, many of the older players have circuit boards which were shall we say not particularly good and these certainly can cause issues.

With the advent of more SMT your soldering iron has been replaced by hot air reworking stations and special adapters for the small i/c packages and their are not inexpensive!

I only tend to work on older units if it is one of our own. Though we have repaired many broken tracks and through hole mishaps and soldering iron slips that have been made by the keen diy'er.

MartinT

25-03-2014, 18:36

If anyone is going to experiment with swapping out, say, the op-amps on an older player, please observe a few tips that will make your life a lot easier:

- Mount the PCB vertically so that you can see both sides of the board
- cut the op-amp out using fine pointed-nose sidecutters
- use a solder sucker (don't even contemplate desoldering braid) to remove as much solder as possible from the underside of each leg
- holding a leg with tweezers from the top side, apply a little heat to the underside and ease it out. Don't pull hard or you will tear the PCB tracks
- clean up the holes by applying a little solder and sucking it all out
- (important) replace the op-amp with a turned-pin DIL socket, not the cheap flat pin variety. That way you can try different op-amps without damaging the board

Enjoy experimenting!

istari_knight

26-03-2014, 11:01

I would add that anyone looking to replace the opamps in their player should first check the working voltage of the stock units... You dont want to fit 15v IC's into an 18v circuit now do you ? Also, if your player uses old/slow opamps without decoupling it is wise to fit 10nF ceramics between the supply pins & ground to prevent oscillation which some modern/fast opamps can be prone to if retrofitted into old designs.

This (http://www.alicemagicbox.com/lasercollection/lovelycubeclassabiasmod.html) is good fun to mess around with too but makes the most difference in headphone amps IME.

MartinT

26-03-2014, 11:19

Also ensure that they are like-for-like replacements. Some 8-pin chips are dual op-amps while others are single op-amps with compensation.

jandl100

26-03-2014, 12:39

Please keep us posted of progress, Jerry! :)

Marco.

:thumbsup:

I should be dropping off my SL-P1200 with Tony in a couple of weeks time.

istari_knight

26-03-2014, 14:42

Also ensure that they are like-for-like replacements. Some 8-pin chips are dual op-amps while others are single op-amps with compensation.

Haven't done that one yet ! :D

Mr Kipling

26-03-2014, 18:24

The seller states that it doesn't read CD-Rs. Ferretting about the 'net I have read that some will read CD-Rs, and yet others won't. Also, being available from 1985 to at least 1992, there must be a fair few still kicking about - that haven't ended up in the skip. Apparently, it was a "Best Seller" for Technics.

Wakefield Turntables

26-03-2014, 20:09

Funny init how we all go through phases with hifi. This technics CDP seems to be one of them, everyone seems to want one. I'm just re-visiting CD's after a 10 year period. Its always nice to follow these threads. One thing I dont like when looking after vintage kit is the continual expense and worry over it breaking down.

jandl100

26-03-2014, 20:55

Re: CDRs - my Techie SL-P1200 plays probably over 50% of the ones I have tried.

Mr Kipling

26-03-2014, 21:30

Re: CDRs - my Techie SL-P1200 plays probably over 50% of the ones I have tried.

I would imagine that it's down to the laser output and if it's in need of adjustment.

Mr M. Seemed a bit petty to my mind. You have yourself broken your own rule previously. I know there's little point in saying more.

Marco

26-03-2014, 21:39

Mr M. Seemed a bit petty to my mind. You have yourself broken your own rule previously.

Only a selective few times, and for very good reason. That doesn't entitle you to do the same, especially when it's completely unecessary. Now let that be an end to the matter.

Marco.

Mr Kipling

26-03-2014, 21:55

Well like I said, I know there's no point in saying anything. It's one of the reasons why I never bothered with forums for years.

Marco

26-03-2014, 22:00

Well like I said, I know there's no point in saying anything.

So practice what you preach and know when to zip it, there's a good lad. Honestly, you're worse than a woman ;)

Marco.

Marco

26-03-2014, 22:27

:thumbsup:

I should be dropping off my SL-P1200 with Tony in a couple of weeks time.

Excellent stuff, Jerry!

Shame that Mark's stopped modifying other people's CD players, but I fully understand why. However, that doesn't stop Tony from doing something similar or anyone handy with a soldering iron, and an account with Farnell or RS Supplies, carrying out a few judicious upgrades to key parts of the circuit, as outlined already.

As has also been mentioned, there should be a few of these players still kicking around, so let's see how many we can transform into genuinely high-end CDPs, and in turn create another veritable 'giant-killer' on AoS, similar to the SL-P1200's vinyl playing relative!!

:yesbruv:

Marco.

Mr Kipling

27-03-2014, 07:58

That's somewhat rich, isn't it? And I'm not preaching anything.

Anyway, if 184 isn't happy with his at least Macca might benefit. I didn't realise he had had it for so long. I remember him getting it but didn't think it was that long ago. Still determined to get mine working. The case is badly marked and so fancy getting it sprayed electric blue.

realysm42

28-03-2014, 18:57

Marco, I think you're out of line honestly; you make rules, selectively don't stick to them yoursel and patronise people when they don't like it.

I know its your forum and you can do as you please, but it damages your credibility.

Marco

28-03-2014, 18:59

That's fine, Martin. You're entitled to your opinion. Now can we please move on and return to the subject in hand? :)

Marco.

realysm42

28-03-2014, 19:02

Cheers, sure thing.

Anyone here with bybee purifier experience? Noticed audiocom use them in upgrades.

Marco

28-03-2014, 19:03

Yup, I use one inside my DAC.

See post #78, 4th last paragraph: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31326-Technics-SL-P1200-Pro-CD-Player&p=534415#post534415

:)

Marco.

walpurgis

28-03-2014, 20:39

Cheers, sure thing.

Anyone here with bybee purifier experience? Noticed audiocom use them in upgrades.

I vaguely recall the name of the things, can't remember exactly what they were supposed to do. Wasn't there an aura of 'Snake Oil' about them? Not sure if they were actually discredited or proven to work.

realysm42

28-03-2014, 20:50

I vaguely recall the name of the things, can't remember exactly what they were supposed to do. Wasn't there an aura of 'Snake Oil' about them? Not sure if they were actually discredited or proven to work.

There's a huge amount of controversy about them all over the place, they're meant to reduce 1/f noise apparently (whatever that is).

Tbh, from my own (completely unscientific) experimentation, some foo has worked really well, so I'm quite intruiged by them. It would be a final touch experiment, so probably give them a go in a few years.

Marco

28-03-2014, 20:55

I vaguely recall the name of the things, can't remember exactly what they were supposed to do. Wasn't there an aura of 'Snake Oil' about them? Not sure if they were actually discredited or proven to work.

They are a little 'snake oily', Geoff, in terms of there doesn't seem to be an awful lot to their design, but they are surprisingly effective at removing noise from the signal path, although one can overegg the filtering effect, which is why I ended up using only one in what I considered was the most effective position (and no, it wasn't when being used as a suppository!) :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

28-03-2014, 21:09

Tbh, from my own (completely unscientific) experimentation, some foo has worked really well, so I'm quite intruiged by them. It would be a final touch experiment, so probably give them a go in a few years.

I would definitely try some, Martin - just be careful not to use too many, as too much filtering can kill the music :)

Marco.

realysm42

28-03-2014, 21:16

Yeah, they're an interesting tweak given that they can be deployed almost anywhere electricity flows in the system.

I'm guessing some at source would be useful to start with.

Never thought about them in the vinyl side of things Marco?

Marco

28-03-2014, 22:07

I suspect they'd be more effective in the digital domain, Martin, but you never know :)

Marco.

MartinT

28-03-2014, 22:43

Just to close my brief acquaintance with an SL-P1200, I have had a full refund from the (very honourable) vendor who has admitted to hearing the skipping, too. It was an impressive machine in all other respects, especially considering when it was made. It also taught me to take feet even more seriously and my Ayre player has benefitted from being sat now on big Deflex sorbothane feet.

Macca

08-04-2014, 12:58

A large and very heavy box has arrived for me - can only be my new SL-P1200 - Ho Ho Ho!

MartinT

08-04-2014, 14:54

Let us know if it sounds as good as your first one :)

Macca

08-04-2014, 15:40

It is a lot mintier so it shouldn't sound any worse and will hopefully last a but longer too.

Marco

08-04-2014, 15:55

Nice one, dude... However, will you be allowed to have it in the living room by whatever girly graces you with her presence and wants to turn your gaff into her vision of the perfect show home? This is serious stuff...!

I mean, will that bad-ass Technics disturb the tranquil ambience of your dwelling with its uncouth boisterousness, clash with the chintz curtains, or spoil the otherwise Laura Ashley-esque country cottage thing you've got going on, with its brutal and rather industrial looking facade? :eyebrows: ;)

Shouldn't you check first with your interior designer before permitting it entry into your ever-so-dainty domicile?? And will manipulative Mandy leave you for gormless Gavin, who owns the best Barratt house in town?

Those are the questions we gots ta know!! :D

Marco.

jandl100

08-04-2014, 16:35

Hey, good to know you've picked up another one, Macca :thumbsup:

I dropped mine off today with Tony (Mr C) for some discreet modding - thanks Tony! - and I miss it already! :(

Macca

08-04-2014, 22:03

Looking forward to hearing about those mods, Jerry. Gilding the lily - and why not? As Barry Norman used to say.

Marco - my decor is fucked anyway it is in for a penny in for a pound here. Not even got the damn thing out of the box yet will be tomorrow now. WAF is already hovering near zero or possibly even into negative figures if that is possible. Although I have afriend who has two rooms of hi house full of pinball machines so it is all relative in the grand scheme of things. The trick as always is to make sure you hang about with people who are far more gone than you are :)

Marco

09-04-2014, 06:48

Lol - love it! :respect:

Life is for living, not fretting over how pretty your house looks. I'm sure that when you unleash the beast, inside da box, the magic you've been missing recently will return in spades! :hairmetal:

Jerry, looking forward to finding out how Tony's mods works out :)

Marco.

Mr. C

10-04-2014, 10:52

The Techie is progressing nicely and is currently in recovery room and doing well :)

Mr Kipling

10-04-2014, 11:21

Do you have a circuit for the balance stage?

Mr. C

10-04-2014, 11:27

Hi Steve

The unit is single ended only, are you referring to the discrete smt stages that replace the op amps?

Mr Kipling

10-04-2014, 17:48

Thanks Tony.

Oh. I thought the version with XLR outputs contained a balanced stage.

Any idea where I might get some buttons?

Marco

10-04-2014, 18:02

The Techie is progressing nicely and is currently in recovery room and doing well :)

Lol - glad to hear it, Tony! Looking forward to discovering how you think the sound has moved on from how it was in stock form, and of course you must outline exactly what work you've carried out and how much it has cost :cool:

Marco.

Mr. C

11-04-2014, 10:11

Thanks Tony.

Oh. I thought the version with XLR outputs contained a balanced stage.

Any idea where I might get some buttons?

Morning Steve

There are no xlr outputs on Jerry's unit, you may be mistaking the din sockets for the 'wired remote' (how cute) and the subcode inputs.

With regard to buttons, possible some of the older/vintage gear sellers, ex BBC engineers or back in Japan there are many now sub cultures of shops specializing in 'cult' electronic pieces.

Mr Kipling

11-04-2014, 11:18

How do.

Actually I have seem a version with both RCA and XLR outputs, which had me thinking it would have a balanced stage.

MartinT

11-04-2014, 11:26

The ASC version I had for a short time, made for the BBC, had XLR balanced outputs.

Macca

11-04-2014, 12:04

There are 3 different models as I understand it, two are 'broadcast' spec and the third is the 'Disco Stu' version that does not have the balanced outputs. There are other differences, the broadcast versions have a fader where the pitchslider is on the disco version, and the display is more central, whereas the disco version has the display across to the right and a little 'class AA' circuit diagram to the left.

The model I have recently obtained is the 'Disco' version and I have to say based on a small amount of listening so far it is not quite as good as my Broadcast 'B' version, although I wouldn't want to commit fully to that as yet, it is my instinctive feeling but that is not often wrong.

As usual when you scratch the surface with something you find out how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Mr. C

11-04-2014, 13:18

Hi Steve

In which case does yours have a captive mains lead or an internal IEC socket

I did mention to Jerry they are a few versions (internal changes also)

While I was internally restructuring the Techie, I also had a more recent unit on the bench, to which I made some comparisons on the scope via music and test tones. The Techie's output voltage is just over 1.1v (Which is around half of what is accepted these days a stand line level outputs).

Dac chip used in J's Techie (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm54.pdf)

Which is a VERY early BB offering, the earliest I have know would have been the PCM63 which was a superbly musical chip, used in the early Wadia's (possibly 200 series Coplands?)

Apart from the big reduction in total noise floor the pcm54 cites 96dB, (it is closer to 92dB in real life) the other unit I was using manages a very respectable 114.7dB per channel (single chip).

The overall patterns generated by the Techie where as closer as you can perceive them to be (given music has no real structure as all music is different) other than the actual scope traces (look) thicker all very subjective I agree.

However on the set test tones, the later unit clearly had far more defined sinusoidal pattern. Which again can be interpreted in anyway you wish.

My point here, the Techie has far less resolution and detail then even quote modest CDP's and presents it music is far less convincing manner.

However I suspect the bigger, fuller and warmer sound it does generate appeals to the vinyl boys and I-pod generation as it does not in any way deliver an 'etched or forced' sound which would broaden it's appeal.

J's unit has the mains Analogue/Digital power supply along with both the receiver /dac chips and rudimentary analogue stage all on one board.

Where as the full broadcast units are somewhat different.

However I would say J's unit has responded more favorable at this point than the ex BBC units did food for thought.

Macca

11-04-2014, 13:54

Hi Tony

Yes, this latest one I have got hold of has a captive mains lead. It is interesting that you say there are significant differences from the broadcast units since this is exactly what I am hearing, the non-broadcast version is, quite simply, not as good. I am wondering if it would be possible to use it as a doner to get the broadcast version working again?

Mr. C

11-04-2014, 19:11

Hi Martin

Sorry I have misled you I meant to clarify that the newer unit I had on the bench was a two year old high end player in for upgrade not a broadcast version of the Techie

Even the BBC version of this player will have a very similar s/n ratio as the dac chips of that time period did not make big gains until the first of the 20 bit 8 times over sampling pcm 63 series hit the developers bench

The big differences are in the segregated power supplies and a much more sophisticated analogue stage

Mr Kipling

11-04-2014, 19:20

Hi Tony.

The version I have is the same as what Martin and Jerry have and has a captive mains lead. Ferretting about the 'net looking for a 8290S when I got it, I did read that this version doesn't appear to sound quite as good as the Broadcast version. Some have tried to get details of the circuit changes but Technics weren't willing to give any information.

Then again, if they were modified by the BBC themselves, I don't suppose they would have circuit details.

Marco

12-04-2014, 08:57

Hi Tony,

Nice chatting (as usual) yesterday, btw :)

My point here, the Techie has far less resolution and detail then even quote modest CDP's and presents it music is far less convincing manner.

However I suspect the bigger, fuller and warmer sound it does generate appeals to the vinyl boys and I-pod generation as it does not in any way deliver an 'etched or forced' sound which would broaden it's appeal.

Interesting... I wonder what would happen if you carried out the same measurements on my Sony DAC, which is of a similar vintage?

The reason I ask is that, if the results were similar, I'm wondering how relevant those measurements actually are in terms of 'real world' listening, because as you know, I've compared the Sony many times to numerous different modern high-end DACs, and "far less resolution" is not what is heard from the Sony when such comparisons are made - quite the opposite...

Therefore, either its the case that, just as how digital measures better than analogue, yet many of us consider that analogue at its best produces more lifelike musical results, so it is with the best vintage CDPs versus modern ones (despite what the measurements indicate) - or the extensive modifications I've had carried out to my DAC, by Audiocom, have successfully addressed the resolution issue?

The other thing of course is that the Sony uses TDA1541 S1 chips, not Burr-Browns....

In any case, the fact is there's no way I would use a DAC that sounds "full and warm", because I'm a "vinyl boy", lol (the very notion is preposterous), and I suspect that such a sonic signature could, to a degree, be 'tuned out' of the Technics if the correct type of modifications were applied. Anyway, it'll be interesting seeing what Jerry thinks when he listens to his CDP once he gets it back :cool:

Marco.

Mr. C

14-04-2014, 14:00

Afternoon Marco

Happy to quantify my previous post for your good-self.

I mentioned in my above post:-

"However I suspect the bigger, fuller and warmer sound it does generate appeals to the vinyl boys and I-pod generation as it does not in any way deliver an 'etched or forced' sound which would broaden it's appeal."

Something which I stand by, as a dealer over the many years the biggest gripe/moan/observation leveled at digital playback (CD player on the whole) has been upper frequency glare/edge/hardness and perceived brightness add to that a thinness when compared to the customers own vinyl playback.

If the customer has been listening to vinyl for a couple years (usually a lot longer in many cases!) they have grown up / had a long association with records and the playback they can generate. For the first 10-12 years of digital playback I would pretty agree whole heartily.

CD produced a much lower noise floor and could dig up more detail however the vinyl playback was more pleasing sound, so many hifi buffs tended to purchase CD players that reminded them of their preferred sonic. On the whole these had a greater depth and texture with no hard edges.

Wadia and Accuphase as case in point.

As with all perceptions there are exceptions to the rules, and as technology progressed and sound improvements came with CD players people attitudes changes as with all natural progressions. I could go into the ripping now vinyl comeback (again) due to the younger generation, though that is not the reply I am getting to.

You made the comment:-

"The very notion is preposterous"

In your case Marco, I would not doubt given your preference for upfront and dynamic sounds, however I will stand by observation regarding people's desire to associate themselves with the familiar and preferred playback sound that they enjoy.

Which brings us nicely on to the Sony DAS-R1, a good implementation of the use of the the much vaulted TDA1541 chip-set, the main reason this chip was so highly regarded was simple:- To most listeners ears it sound 'undigital' in that we use the word 'analogue' here as so many former users actually attached this term to there dac's.

TDA1541 spec sheet (http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/img/info/tda1541/philips-TDA1541A-datasheet.pdf)

This dac is term 'Non over sampling' which means it processes the incoming data stream at its native rate, it does not 'add' or multiple the base incoming sample with a digital algorithm to the sampling frequency.
Many people believe this to be the more natural sounds of digital playback.

Your dac uses two of these chips, one per channel, the same as the Techie 1200 one dac chip per channel, the TDA1541 is a stereo dac chip capable of delivering both channels from one unit.
The Sony uses two of the chips, not being able to source a circuit diagram I cannot see how they configured these chips, anyone care to oblige with one?

If we take a look at the S1 variant of the TDA1541 which is cited as the preferred version for audiophile use (Burr Brown has the 'K' grade for their AMG version if you like!) it's maximum performance (From spec sheet) in real terms is between 98-104dB (which is very good for a 16 bit dac of its era). Though interesting this is measured @ 4Fs (176.4Khz)

To increase signal to noise ratio beyond this point you would need to add further matching dac chips in a parallel configuration (dual differential mode). So for a 3dB increase in S/N you would need to have four dac chips.

For example Scott Berry's CAD dac uses sixteen (16) TDA1543's though he feels his s/n is around 94dB mark in his configuration.

The upgrades you have had performed on your dac will improve, bass response, detail, greater separation and lower noise floor without question, but digging into the recording and delivering true musical insight that certain dac's do will not happen due to the technical progress of the newer dac chips and their implementation.

The sound your dac makes you do fully appreciate 110% and that is all that matters to you pretty much regardless of what other equipment you hear.
Which is how it should.

This then brings us to the age old conundrum are more numbers better?

The answer is easy. Each individuals ears will attract them to their preferred sound what ever their preferences are.

If we look at a stop/pass-band graph of a dac to the trained eye you can 'tell' pretty much how a dac will sound with a given input source.

http://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/images/Passband%20plot.png

The above jitter spectrum graph for modern high end dac had a sample taken @ 24/96Khz and used the SPDIF input and recorded.

Total correlated Jitter (re. -4dBFs into 60000ohm) = 7psec (Left Channel) and 9psec (Right Channel)

Analysis: 5psec @ 100Hz 4psec @ 637Hz (Right Channel) (Left Channel) 5psec @ 100Hz 5psec @ 637Hz 5psec @ 643Hz

The specifications are excellent, the main question how does it sound?

Wide open, sweet, very articulate, dynamic and yet delicate with deep textural renderings.

However personal taste is a specific trait we all have, so one mans meat is another mans pile of pooh.

Personally I gravitate towards musical reproduction that generates a 'real' live feel but without the drawbacks of having to listen through a pair of rose tinted glasses or having those delicate musical interplay sessions being driven at by a Peter-built 579 on full boost.

The sensation of being there at the heart of recording is a rare and beautiful experience one to be treasured :)

I'm sure Jerry will report his findings once he has the Techie back in his own system for a day or so.

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 17:20

Wilbur

14-04-2014, 17:29

Im very fond of mine,purely as a looker,cos it wont read discs,sodding thing. Anyone come across this before?

MartinT

14-04-2014, 17:33

Tony - I agree completely and would add - hesitantly - that it takes a certain amount of adaptation to understand and appreciate what such a wide open DAC does with sound. Not just once has a non-audiophile reeled back when listening to my system at first because they had never heard detailed and dynamic treble content before.

Stephen - the problem with non-oversampling and bypassing the digital filter is that you're going to get very variable results depending on how well your system handles the high levels of ultrasonics generated. Remember Pioneer Legato Link, anyone?

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 17:44

Was there a problem with Pioneer's DAC? Never had one of their players.

Mr. C

14-04-2014, 17:45

Hi Tony,

Have you tried non-oversampling the 1200? On diyaudio someone years ago was selling one where he had done this and bypassed the digital filter and used a transformer and resistor network. According to him it was quite an improvement over the standard item.

Just came to mind that Ken Ishi-whatshisname of Marantz has said that in his opinion the DAC in a player contributes about 25% to the sound as a whole.

Hi Steve

You can still use a digital filter as long as it does not contain an SRC, (sampler rate converter) again digital filters have come on a long way and usually contain a PLL (Phase lock loop), though you will still need some form of filtration which is usually provided by a filter network / custom wound transformer / cathode follower stage (valve)

Improving the PLL section of the receiver chip will also bring dividends, most start @ 10Khz depending on how old the technology is.

These are great and again with proper implementation with improve things no end (also note 3.3vdc power requirement)

AKM 44117VF digital filter (http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4117VF)

I'm not a fan of non dac's only every heard one that actually sound genuinely good and that uses between 4 and 8 dac chips per channel plus a heap of power supply work and keen I/V stages (again NO transformers) depending on your configuration. However my thoughts are akin to myself, its just the way I like things.

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 17:51

It's great when somebody knows what they're talking about.

The only other example of non-oversampling I've heard of was with Audio Note's DACs.

Mr. C

14-04-2014, 17:54

Martin did pick up on a point with regarding to filtering, as with some NOS dac's it is your amplifier which ends up being the last filter in the chain with concerning frequencies outside the audio band, so in essence your amp is a low pass filter:stalks:

MartinT

14-04-2014, 18:53

so in essence your amp is a low pass filter:stalks:

Perhaps not for long... :mad:

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 20:05

I know Pioneer's DAC was intended to counter cd's 20K brick wall filtering, but how did it go about doing this?

MartinT

14-04-2014, 20:28

Pioneer Legato Link produced a mirror of ultrasonic spuriae into the audible spectrum, or something similar. An attempt to create air and spaciousness, but I think the results were variable.

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 21:04

I remember when the first player using it came out and The Audophile reviewed it, Keith Howard wasn't all that impressed when he tried it.

walpurgis

14-04-2014, 21:24

I have two Pioneer CD players that feature 'Legato Link'. They sound very nice! As pleasant as any other players I've used (that's quite a lot). The sound definitely has a sweetness to it that is missing with many players. Whether that is an artificial effect I don't know, or care.

Mr Kipling

14-04-2014, 21:35

I think Noel Keywood was a bit of a fan.

jandl100

24-04-2014, 14:12

Well, tis done. My Techie SL-P1200 CD player has been breathed upon by Tony / Mr. C in a fairly moderate way and has been in use for the last few days. :)

To cut a long story short - it's all good! :)

More rez across the freq spectrum, more fluidity to the presentation of the music, a notable reduction in grain (I only really knew it had been there once it had gone!), much better stage depth and imaging realism - but it still retains the funky musical enthusiasm which first won me over to the player.

I cannot hear any downsides to the changes done so far, but the mods are audibly still settling in (it was a bit rough the first day or so!) and Tony told me to expect further improvement over the next couple of weeks of normal usage.

I'll leave it to Tony to explain the changes made, if he cares to do so.

Thanks Tony! - your judiciously chosen mods have worked a treat. :thumbsup:

MartinT

24-04-2014, 17:08

Very interesting. Looking forward to Tony's mod list.

Mr. C

27-04-2014, 14:47

Hello Jerry

Pleased you are enjoying the revised Techie, it will further improve in the coming weeks to as the various components settle in.

careful section of improvements needs to be thought out before tackling older players as it can all be too easy to turn them into screaming banshee's!

Also thought has to be given into the age of player, complexity of circuit design, components used, re soldering issues, through hole component removal.

The Techie uses a lot of old skool ribbon cables for logic stages and control functions, and is not the easiest of units to physically dis-assemble.

All of the work performed on Jerry's player was carried out on the main psu/dac/output stage board in the top right hand side of the unit.

Around 28 components were replaced, another 12 or so added, power supply caps, by-pass and decoupling all replaced an upgraded, bridge rectifiers were upgraded, improved digital ground decoupling around the dac chips with Oscon SP's, the bi-polars in the output stage also replaced, improved by-passing with metal film caps 1% variants, some resistor changes in the output stage. Captive lead replaced with dedicated IEC and hard wired in.
Vibration isolation control,on the pair of tx's improved.

I would suggest around a solid couple of weeks use to fully allow the replaced components to settle in as well.

Keep us up to speed on the progress of the Techie Jerry.

MartinT

28-04-2014, 06:53

improved digital ground decoupling around the dac chips with Oscon SP's, the bi-polars in the output stage also replaced

Nice one, Tony. I have found Sanyo Os-Cons to be extremely good sounding caps for decoupling. By 'bi-polars' do you mean the op-amps or are there discrete transistors in the output stage?

Mr. C

28-04-2014, 09:06

Martin

I find Oscons in relation to all digital circuits and certain power supplies to be much better than black gates, however Sanyo have stopped producing Oscon's and their availability is no so easy now. I did purchase around 5000 pieces a year ago so I am ok for these for a while yet :)

ELNA's Silmic II's in the purple case are also pretty good for new designs as well.

The bi-polars I replaced are capacitors just before op amps, which I could replace, however having ultra fast, ultra quiet, ultra high band width op amps (even if biased into class 'a') will take sound too far away from the reason why Jerry purchased the unit.

You will then need to improve the noise floor supplying rails to the op-amps the fully utilize the proposed swap.

There are other avenues to explore if Jerry wishes to take this further.

MartinT

28-04-2014, 10:20

Ah, thanks. Yes I've used Elna Silmic II electrolytics to good effect, too.

Mr Kipling

28-04-2014, 22:12

Mr C./Terry/Me Old Mate, Me Old Mucker,

Apologies for the familiararities. Will you be giving specific details of components (values) and designations?

Thanks.

jandl100

05-05-2014, 09:29

Well, the re-furbed Techie has been getting several hours use a day and I can say without any doubt that it is continuing to improve.

(The lack of doubt comes from comparisons with an Arcam DV29 DVD player I use as a back up CDP ... the Arcam is a £1600 unit and sounds pretty good in an Arcammy way -- differences were obvious but not grossly huge pre-mod, but the Techie now leaves the Arcam in the dust. :))

3D imaging, the hanging in space solidity and precision of 'visual' layout of the sound between the speakers which was so sorely lacking in the player pre-modding by Tony is now coming along in spades. It's not quite the best I have heard in this regard (yet) but it is bloody good!

Also vivid in-room presence, tonal richness and transient attack have shown marked improvements.

Very nice indeed, and Tony's mods certainly seem to have addressed the area I previously saw as a major weakness - the imaging in depth thing. It's now an excellent allrounder, imho, with a most enjoyable musical enthusiasm.

I just hope that the laser assembly is good on this vintage unit and doesn't go belly-up! :doh: :)

Yomanze

05-05-2014, 09:45

Pioneer Legato Link produced a mirror of ultrasonic spuriae into the audible spectrum, or something similar. An attempt to create air and spaciousness, but I think the results were variable.

It was a filter designed to flatten out pre and post ringing that digital filters produce. Thus it should have less digital filter sound signature, but as no free lunch you do get that 'smoother' sound.

MartinT

05-05-2014, 11:24

I know that you can only optimise one or the other - you cannot flatten out both sides. The MP (Minimum Phase) filter used in my Ayre and various Meridians, among others, tries to optimise the pre-ringing by pushing it out to post-ringing.

http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf

Macca

05-05-2014, 11:52

From what Jerry has posted so far it does seem that the mods have pushed his disco stu version towards the sound of the brodcast model. Now that I have one of each I have found that there is a very noticable difference to the sound, the brodcast is quite signficantly better, although the ds bersion has consiferably more heft in the lower frequncies to the point where it can be almost scary. Since my brodcast is playing up I am quite keen on the idea of doing these mods but it will have to wait a while due to a self imposed moratorium on hi fi spending/squandering for the present time.

Mr. C

06-05-2014, 08:42

Jerry

Glad to see the units is now coming on strong.

Compared to my non upgraded BBC version, Jerry's unit displays more depth of field and greater flow to the sound, also improved textural layering.

Quite a fun and entertaining unit

Reffc

06-05-2014, 11:38

Well, I had Jerry Chez RFC mansions this morning and he brought the Techy with him. Now I liked it before the mods were done; plenty of "get up and go" and definitely up to modern player standards despite the age (or should I say "pedegree?;) )

We did a comparison with the Accuphase DP55V player (24 Bit multiple Delta Sigma DAC) listening to Brahms (piano quartets), Richard Strauss (last Four Songs), Mozart (Mass in C minor) and Eddy Louiss (sang mele).

The results were quite an eye opener. The Techy not only held it's own with the much pricier Accu player but bettered it notably in some areas. The Techy appeared to have more drive and energy in certain respects, lower mid range and bass had a little more drive and image depth was a little better. Lots of little things which added up to quite a more significant impression! The only thing which let the Techy down for my personal tastes was in the voices. The Accuphase was rich, tonally and triggered more of an emotional response for me, particularly with Strauss's Four Last Songs. It allowed small nuances in voices to be more distinct and also was smoother up top. I found too that it was slightly easier to hear individual voices on the choral sections of Mozart's C Minor Mass.

If I wanted a player solely for Choral, operatic and grand scale symphonic, I think that on balance I would stick with the Accuphase, but it was a close run thing! For Rock, simpler classical pieces, piano, the Techy would be my choice. Something in between the two would be ideal...does such a beast exist I wonder? :scratch:

This was all underlined when first listening to Sang Mele with the driving rhythmic bass beats to track 3 (I think it was). Back with the Accuphase in the system, things were beautifully smooth (not too euphonic or buttery, just without the unnecessary brash sound that some electronic music can have on CD I find) but some of that rhythm section drive seemed to be missing. The Techy partied better in that respect.

Overall, a stonkingly good player and something of a hidden gem. :cool:

The Techy wasn't brash by any means, but for me, just a little more aggressive...it had a slight edge to it but that never seemed to dominate or become unpleasant. I know that this voicing suits Jerry's tastes perfectly, so for Jerry, the Techy has to be the perfect CDP. It was more refined too following Tony's excellent fettling work, so well done Tony, good job :clap: