Upgrading Suggestions

[raygreen]

I'm new to the forum and bought my first hi fi system when I was 18 or so with months of savings from my first job. I'm 46 now............and I've still got it! I don't know whether that says I'm pleased with it or it is ......well, still with me. It has served me well.

My question is, if I was upgrading only one item at a time, what would you change and why? I have;

Arcam Alpha 2 Amp
Arcam Alpha 2 CD
Celestion DL 6 Speakers
Dual 505-2 Turntable
Quality speaker wire (not sure of the make)

This is something I plan to do but will probably go for second hand bargains - quality used equipment that has been looked after. I don't mind older equipment as long as it is providing an even better listening experience. I think this system is fairly neutral sounding.
I have a few thoughts on a CD and turntable but will share those later.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[walpurgis]

You didn't mention interconnect cables Ray. That's a good place to start if yours are cheapos. Good cables are not very dear, but make a huge difference and you'll retain the benefits they give as you upgrade the rest of the system.

[raygreen]

Forgot to mention those. They are decent cables - I've always made sure the cables are good quality. I suppose it's the hardware I would like to hear peoples opinions on. I know music and sound is always an individual thing. I wouldn't want anything that was too heavy on the bass - 'boom, boom, boom'. Don't want to be drowned out by vibrations. Then again, tinny treble is even worse (much worse).

I've just compared my DL6's with a set of Gayle Gold Monitor 2 I have just bought for a van. Smaller bookshelf speakers but more modern. They throw out a fair sound but the Celestions are clearer and more precise. Whether they are as good I don't know but they sound better to my ears. I would like to try out a freestanding speaker for an upgrade but I really don't mind something that sits on a stand either.

[chelsea]

Others will disagree but i'd throw as much as you can at the speakers.

[The Grand Wazoo]

How is your listening time split/proportioned between CD and records?

[raygreen]

More with CD over the past few years although I am really enjoying vinyl again very recently. My turntable was not even connected until recently as my records were kept elsewhere. I think the CD era just took over for me all those years ago but the Dual is very capable. Both CD and turntable I have often had the Rega Planet and Rega Planer 3 at the back of my mind but speakers have never really had any idea where to go here.

[losenotaminute]

I'm new to the forum and bought my first hi fi system when I was 18 or so with months of savings from my first job. I'm 46 now............and I've still got it! I don't know whether that says I'm pleased with it or it is ......well, still with me. It has served me well.

My question is, if I was upgrading only one item at a time, what would you change and why? I have;

Arcam Alpha 2 Amp
Arcam Alpha 2 CD
Celestion DL 6 Speakers
Dual 505-2 Turntable
Quality speaker wire (not sure of the make)

This is something I plan to do but will probably go for second hand bargains - quality used equipment that has been looked after. I don't mind older equipment as long as it is providing an even better listening experience. I think this system is fairly neutral sounding.
I have a few thoughts on a CD and turntable but will share those later.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Hi Ray and welcome from me also. What is your favourite genre of music?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Others will disagree but i'd throw as much as you can at the speakers.

I'm one of the others!
Your speakers are pretty capable, so I'd keep them for a bit, myself.
Although I've never had much love for any Arcam stuff, the amp is probably able to resolve more than your sources are delivering to it, so I'd be looking at those to start with. I think the Dual, though it was everyone's favourite starter deck, was probably not up to snuff with your amp right from the word go, so maybe you've been selling yourself a little short on vinyl all along?
I don't think you mentioned what sort of budget you might have to play with.

[Macca]

I also think the Dual could be improved quite a bit on for not a lot of money, I've had a couple of the cheaper Dual TTs including the 'Audiophile Concept' version and I don't really rate them. Not familiar with the amps and speakers. Info about the size, construction, furnishings and layout of the listening room would be helpful, as well as budget.

Also what sort of sound are you after? There are lots of alternative presentations of the music that can be achieved so it helps to have an idea of which one you want to go for. If you already know then it can save a lot of time mucking about. Is there a system you have heard elsewhere whose sound you would like to emulate?

[walpurgis]

More with CD over the past few years although I am really enjoying vinyl again very recently. My turntable was not even connected until recently as my records were kept elsewhere. I think the CD era just took over for me all those years ago but the Dual is very capable. Both CD and turntable I have often had the Rega Planet and Rega Planer 3 at the back of my mind but speakers have never really had any idea where to go here.

I go along with Chris and Martin on this. The Dual, good for what it was (a basic TT), is your first move I'd say. A Rega (just about any Rega) with something like a Denon DL-110 will give you a huge improvement (and I'm not even really a Rega fan, but they deliver music at a sensible cost).

[raygreen]

My musical tastes are mainly pop and rock. Being a teenager in the '80s also very partial to some of the synth music of the era as well as ska. Really enjoy acoustic guitar. Some of my favourite music these days I would say are the Eels, Elbow, Stornoway, JD McPherson, Damien Rice. The room I use is an attic but that's not going to change. i don't have a 'listening room'. Music for me is something I listen to when doing other things.

I would like music to feel really punchy and responsive. I would like to noticeably hear the clarity of individual instruments and vocals with an upgrade. I would say as well that a fairly neutral sound that people often comment from British made speakers suits my taste (recently seen a pair of Roberts LS55 which caught my eye and sound like a great speaker). Other than that it is a strange one to describe what kind of sound I'm after - I guess that could be described as something that makes me go "WOW - that is amazing". Until you have heard something better you don't really know. I have nothing to compare it with either.

Budget wise I'm not honestly looking to spend a lot. With a family and other interests it's hard to justify spending a fortune. I'd say under £200 for each separate - that's why I think second hand is a good bet for me.

[DSJR]

Celestion made some really good value speakers in their day and the DL6 is the LAST thing to ever consider changing as they'll easily show improvements upstream!

The Dual could have an OM20 stylus fitted which will clean the sound up no end over the slightly astringent Ortofon made one fitted (DN149 or 165?), but the likes of a Rega RP1 or a good used P2 would improve things a good deal. You don't even need to look at a 'me too' DL110 either, an AT91/Rega Carbon sounds just fine in all the right ways, with an Ortofon 2M Red giving improvements all round I'm informed. I'm not a fan of Rega Bias and Elys cartridges I'm afraid, as they're just too coloured for me, but the very cheap Carbon (AT91 in disguise) is huge and utterly safe funky fun if absolute definition isn't the goal :)

The Arcam pairing are nice, but the CD player is the one bit that could have some thought given to replacement. These early Alpha CD players could sound somewhat gritty or tinselly by modern standards, even if used as transports only and I fear that old age would prevent reliable (and third party expensive) bodging to improve. An Alpha 7SE is cheap enough now and very light and sweet toned I remember and the Alpha 8SE was superb - the player not the horrible ringy old amp that matched it. I'm a fan of the Rega Planet mk1 as well, but don't wish to appear to push this brand heavily. The Arcam amp should be fine for now and should only be replaced once the sources have had their turn.

P.S. The now ten year old Arcam Diva players and amps were rather good value and far better in terms of casework. All are pretty safe bets I think.
I've been away from the industry for so long now I've forgotten to ask about budget! Hope my recommendations fit in with any ideas you have :)

[raygreen]

Thanks Dave and everyone. That is a really informative reply. I would have guessed that my CD was probably the weakest link. I used to have an older technics CD player but if I remember this was much more 'tinny' sounding and the Arcam was an improvement on that . Years ago I did so much research into the different components I could have bored anyone within 10 minutes or less! Now I just remember the stuff that used to be good.......and it still is.

Other than the Rega Planet CD (which is one I always had my eye on), any other that people would recommend. Budget wise I'd be wanting to keep this to below £200 second hand.

[DSJR]

Like I said, the later Arcam ones were very good. Alpha 7se, 8se, 9 and later models were very good sounding and later on, the 8se wasn't hugely different to a Planet, and much preferred by the great unwashed because it had a proper drawer - by this time, most aspiring audio people were buying AV systems and keeping WHF magazine and Sevenoaks stores in good business :(

[The Grand Wazoo]

A smidge over your budget, but at that price, I'd think seriously about getting a used Pioneer stable platter CD player as a transport and then squirting the digits into a Beresford DAC. Over budget with a new DAC but under with a used one, I suppose.

[raygreen]

Seems that my amp and speakers are probably the better half of my system. Years ago I used to read into the reviews of different separates and brands. In terms of amplifiers, how would any of the following companies change the sound of my system (I appreciate that different models will change this also but generally companies get a reputation for delivering a specific sound). These are some of the amps I remember getting good reputations;

Naim
Rotel
Cambridge
Creek

[Macca]

Naim - very expensive for what you are getting
Rotel - good value, some of their amps don't like difficult loads
Cambridge - again good value but reliability question marks
Creek - good sound and the old stuff is good value used, the new stuff is well reviewed but a bit pricey.

One approach you could look at is to repalce your amp with a passive pre amp and a power amp and leave the speakers and CD as they are. This might get you closer to a 'wow' sound than any other change but you will need a seperate head amp to play records through.

[synsei]

I picked up a Pioneer PD-S 702 stable platter CDP from ebay for a friend a couple of months ago for around 50 notes and it is a lovely sounding unit (it's quite a looker too). I found that it sounded much nicer running into my pre-amp rather than through a DAC so one of these could be an option if you're wanting to keep your budget under control ;)

[Yomanze]

Just leave the system as is and get more music! It's a slippery slope and am hoping to get anywhere near the time you've got to spend and enjoy with one system. Why not a lovely new cartridge and a turntable service. :)

[synsei]

Just leave the system as is and get more music! It's a slippery slope and am hoping to get anywhere near the time you've got to spend and enjoy with one system. Why not a lovely new cartridge and a turntable service. :)

This is good advice from Neil. The thing is Ray you've lived with this system for a very long time so you know where its strengths and weaknesses lie, however if you are determined to upgrade then my advice would be to concentrate on your sources for now. Determine which of the two you could happily live with for a while longer and then do your research into upgrading t'other. Doing it this way will allow you to throw a little more cash towards your first upgrade and as such you will increase the options available to you. Once you have made your choice and have settled down with your new acquisition you can squirrel some dosh away over time until you are in a position to do it all again ;)

[PaulStewart]

Hi Ray

Here's my tuppence worth, The Celestions are pretty good, you'd have to spend a lot to better them. However it's worth checking the crossovers to see if the capacitors need replacing or updating, it's a pretty cheap tweak if you can DIY it. The weakest link is the Dual TT in my opinion. Depending on budget, I would be looking at Pro-Ject or a second hand classic direct drive. I'm currently using an Arcam Alpha CD myself and I like it, It's one of the original MK1s and I like it's detail and it also has the good phillips swing arm transport and works well with a DAC. I don't know the Alpha2 however.

Best advice is get the source right before yoy worry about amp and speakers

ATB

[raygreen]

Neil and Dave you are probably correct. Money doesn't grow on trees but buying and listening to more music makes sense. I'm sure we'd all love to have cash to splash about on expensive components. The thing with buying second hand is it can always be traded on and interesting to hear if there are big differences to the sound. I don't dislike by system at all - it's perfectly pleasant to listen to. It is really interesting to hear other peoples opinions and I am genuinely taking this all in. There are some bargains to be had out there because there will always be people that want the latest piece of kit.

[raygreen]

What were NAD turntables like? I've only ever known Linn and Rega mentioned in my past.

[raygreen]

I've never considered a DAC before, in fact I've never really understood what they do (I think I understand now). Would this be something that would generally improve sound quality or would that be minimal or vey subjective?

Also, I assume the turntable would not go through the DAC and go straight to the amp not being a digital source. Is that correct?

[Yomanze]

Correct, the DAC needs to plug into a digital output e.g. at the back of your Arcam CDP via a coax SPDIF cable. You will not necessarily see a big upgrade by doing this, system synergy and transparency very much influences how much difference a DAC or different CDP will make. Do you listen to CDs or records more?

[raygreen]

I would probably say CD - I have more music on CD as well although enjoying a lot of my old vinyl again after recently re-connecting my turntable again with a little more space again. Recently viewing a couple of Pioneer Stable Platter CD players which seem to get very good reviews and not going for too much money. Might be worth a little experimentation. There have been some really useful suggestions too.

[Yomanze]

In that case then yes I think you are on the right road with a new DAC. I have one that will definitely make a difference and as customary with me and such kit that am not using, ask Gromit, then am happy to send it to you with a cable to connect to the Arcam.

[synsei]

In that case then yes I think you are on the right road with a new DAC. I have one that will definitely make a difference and as customary with me and such kit that am not using, ask Gromit, then am happy to send it to you with a cable to connect to the Arcam.

There you go Ray, thanks to Neil's kind offer you will be able to hear for yourself what a DAC might bring to the party, nice one Neil :)

[starbucksboss]

I also think the Dual could be improved quite a bit on for not a lot of money, I've had a couple of the cheaper Dual TTs including the 'Audiophile Concept' version and I don't really rate them. Not familiar with the amps and speakers. Info about the size, construction, furnishings and layout of the listening room would be helpful, as well as budget.

Also what sort of sound are you after? There are lots of alternative presentations of the music that can be achieved so it helps to have an idea of which one you want to go for. If you already know then it can save a lot of time mucking about. Is there a system you have heard elsewhere whose sound you would like to emulate?

Yeah...I totally agree...the dual is the weak link here...almost sny CD will spund better...try to find any REGA you can afford...there are some great desls and you will get an instant improvement...good luck!

[starbucksboss]

I would probably say CD - I have more music on CD as well although enjoying a lot of my old vinyl again after recently re-connecting my turntable again with a little more space again. Recently viewing a couple of Pioneer Stable Platter CD players which seem to get very good reviews and not going for too much money. Might be worth a little experimentation. There have been some really useful suggestions too.

I recently added a Musical Fidelity DAC ( The CLIC now half price at Music direct) and it made an unbelievable difference. It so good I bought two and now finally am a convert to PC / itunes / Dac...at last I am retiring my LP12 and reluctantly acknowledging that the digital era has won.