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Naughty Nigel
05-03-2014, 20:21
I have been fascinated by electronics and HiFi since I was at school, which is longer ago than I care to remember!

I used to repair radio and television sets during school holidays to make pocket money, and also worked in a retail emporium (Shee's of Woking) one summer, which was an interesting experience.

I actively considered going into the audio business for a while, and studied electronics as a second subject at Uni, but industrial chemistry was more my thing. That was probably just as well given the way that the industry has gone, and that I don't speak Mandarin.

One holiday project whilst at Uni was to build a pair of concrete lined loudspeakers, such was my determination to eliminate any kind of cabinet colouration. These were driven by the ubiquitous (at the time) EMI 13" x 8" drive units, which produced a very satisfying bass, and a wonderfully uncoloured sound; although moving them was a challenge!

I should add that I was lucky to attend choir school until the age of 13, and still sing regularly today, so I know what live choral and organ music really sounds like. My son is currently studying Organ Performance at conservatoire, so all of our HiFi equipment must be fully organ proof!

More importantly, it is essential to us that any sound system can adequately reproduce the sound and feel of a pipe organ, which is technically quite demanding. To put this into figures, Bottom C on a 32' stop (known as CCCC because it is three octaves below piano pitch) has a fundamental frequency of just 16 Hz, which you feel rather than hear. There are a few organs (Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, the Royal Albert Hall in London, Hull City Hall and Sydney Town Hall to name four) which have 64' stops, where the fundamental frequency of CCCCC is just 8 HZ!

However, to reproduce these frequencies with any realism the bass there is must be tightly controlled and not flabby.

So what equipment do we use?

The main system in the lounge is based on a pair of Quad II power amplifiers (surprise surprise), which I have owned for around forty years, and which other than changing valves have never needed any attention at all.
The Quads are driven by a Quad 44 Pre-Amp, a Quad FM4 tuner, a Philips CD960 CD player and Philips a GA 212 'Electronic' turntable fitted with a Linn K9 cartridge. Loudspeakers are Celestion DL8 II's.

I should add that I stripped the original PVC veneer from the DL8's and replaced it with genuine mahogany, which I varnished to a piano-like finish. I also modified the cabinets slightly to reduce colouration to negligible levels.

However, I have recently set up a second system in my study, as I enjoy listening to music when working. This started with a pair of computer loudspeakers, which I quickly bored with. I then looked at iPod docks, and seriously considered one of the valve driven units until I rationalised that I could buy a very good second-hand separates system for the same price. I have ended up with a second-hand Pioneer A-400 amplifier, a pair of Quad 11L loudspeakers, Pioneer PD104 and F208 CD Player and radio receivers; all second-hand from the Devil's own internet auction site.

This has given me a problem as the Pioneer A-400 and Quad 11L combination is absolutely stunning, with midrange that brings out detail and 3D imaging that I have never heard previously. Bass is also remarkably good given the diminutive size of the Quad loudspeakers. By comparison the DL8's now sound very woolly, although I have always found them a nice and transparent loudspeaker to listen to, especially paired with the Quad II's.

As it happens, I bought the DL8's after attending a HiFi show at Bristol many years ago. I listened to dozens of loudspeakers, but nothing matched up to the neutrality of my old concrete lined cabinets. Even the Quad ESL's were disappointing to my ears, and it was only when I visited the Celestion demo room that I finally found what I wanted to hear.

I do wonder whether the DL8's crossover capacitors need to be replaced, as they are at least 25 years old now? Or is it just a case that the Quad 11 L's are so good in the mid-range that nothing else comes close?

I am also tempted to try some newer drive units, as I doubt that the original 8" woofers can match the mid-range of modern Kevlar reinforced drivers.

One difficulty tat I have is that most HiFi emporia tend to turn their noses up at names such as Philips, Pioneer and even Celestion, but I have no qualms about using them.

I would be loathe to part with he Celestions as I have had them for a very long time, and have spent a lot of time improving them; cosmetically at least. A pair of Quad 22L's seems very attractive right now, but I would far rather persevere with the Celestions if I can; not least because it would be difficult to sneak a new pair of floor-standers past Management into the Parlour! :)

Regards,

Nigel.

mr sneff
05-03-2014, 20:41
Hi Nigel, welcome to AOS; fascinating introduction:) What music do you listen to?

Naughty Nigel
05-03-2014, 21:01
Hi Nigel, welcome to AOS; fascinating introduction:) What music do you listen to?

Almost anything! I sing quite a lot so my main interests are choral and organ music, but I also enjoy orchestral works and some 'modern' music; although it has to be proper music to interest me, so the likes of Queen, ELO, Coldplay, Amy Winehouse are often to be heard here. However, I draw the line at head-banging disco music with a pile-driver like electronic drum beat that can be heard throbbing up and down the road from every boy-racer's Corsa!

I also have a very low boredom threshold when listening to Comfort FM's slushy and repetitious classical repertoire, cherry picked from full-scale works which should be listened to in their entirety. :(

Nigel.

Tarzan
06-03-2014, 18:17
Now that is a proper intro Nigel! Welcome aboard l say.:)

mik_rik
06-03-2014, 18:38
Hello from another Co.Durham lad,good to have you here ,and another valve amp user as well - great. Touching on what you say about dealers attitudes reminds me of my experience [1983] at the height of the "you must have a Linn Sondek" Emperors new clothes time .I went along with my amp only to catch out of the corner of my eye the "knowing" looks that here was another musical peasant who knew nowt! . So they hooked up the Linn in the upstairs listening room with what thought they "knew" was what I should be listening to the Sondek through - it was a Naim system and it was so bad it sounded like a damaged stylus , it was that horrible [that is an accurate description].My amp was a Radford sta15 - but what did I know!,only that 30years later I still have it and the Linn turned into an expensive mistake,and I get a lot more fun from my Thorens 150.The gist of the tale is that if it sounds good to you ,that's all that matters - nowt wrong with the companies you list some Philips dacs were class leaders, and I have a Pioneer Er 420 valve receiver from the 60's still going strong as is my Pioneer Sx 1250 receiver and Pl630 turntable when loads of over hyped and over priced minimalist gear has long gone.Right I'm going for a lie down ps if there are any more Nebo's do yourself a favour and get yourself along and have a good night with like minded people who definatley are not judgemental - your's mik_rik

m10
06-03-2014, 19:25
Welcome from SE Durham!

newton
06-03-2014, 20:49
used to live in belmont so welcome !

RichB
06-03-2014, 21:09
Hi Nigel and welcome from lovely Gateshead!

Great intro mate, sounds like some lovely systems you have there. I used an a400 for many years, it was my main amp for at least 10 years then i used it in my study/second bedroom system until last year when the transformer finally gave up and I went down the mini-t amp route with a pair of vintage Ditton 15s. This system still gets a lot of use and gives me joy whenever I use it.

So welcome aboard and as Mick mentioned perhaps we'll get to meet you at a future meet up.

All the best

Rich

Naughty Nigel
07-03-2014, 15:03
Thank you all for your warm welcome!

For the benefit of local members I will recall a musical story that may be of interest.

As you may know, Newcastle City Hall has a very fine four manual organ, installed by Harrison & Harrison of Durham in 1929. Sadly it isn't in very good condition at present, mainly owing to too much central heating and not enough use, but the bits of it that still work sound very splendid.

Anyhow, three or four years ago our son was asked if he would play some demo pieces on it for the annual Heritage Open Day in September. It seemed too good an offer to refuse, and after all, how many teenagers get to play their own choice of music as loudly as they like and still have grown adults asking for more?

A few days before the open day we went along to the City Hall for a practice, and to see exactly what was and wasn't working. There were some odd stops that were not working properly, but most of the big stuff seemed to be OK, so he launched into the Introduction to Léon Boëllmann's Suite Gothique - a satisfyingly loud and very fulsome French piece that could be guaranteed to cover the sound of any 'cyphers' (stuck notes) that tend to be a problem on underused organs. This involved pulling out virtually every stop on the instrument, including the big Double Open Wood 32' and Double Ophicleide 32' pedal stops.

All was going well until two very white-faced workmen burst through the stage door wanting to know what on earth was going on. Apparently they had been on the roof doing some maintenance work, and were not aware that anyone was inside. They hadn't heard any music owing to the traffic noise outside, but could feel the roof shaking quite violently owing to the sound waves coming from these huge pipes! :)

Nigel.

m10
07-03-2014, 15:48
That story has shades of Abbott and Costello about it... Excellent!

Naughty Nigel
23-03-2014, 22:16
Hi Nigel and welcome from lovely Gateshead!

Great intro mate, sounds like some lovely systems you have there. I used an a400 for many years, it was my main amp for at least 10 years then i used it in my study/second bedroom system until last year when the transformer finally gave up and I went down the mini-t amp route with a pair of vintage Ditton 15s. This system still gets a lot of use and gives me joy whenever I use it.

So welcome aboard and as Mick mentioned perhaps we'll get to meet you at a future meet up.

All the best

Rich

Do you still have the A-400 Richard? If you don't want it I would be very happy to have a go at fixing it! :)

Nigel

RichB
24-03-2014, 08:51
Do you still have the A-400 Richard? If you don't want it I would be very happy to have a go at fixing it! :)

Nigel
Sorry mate, it went in a clear out some time ago. You know that click it makes a few seconds after its switched on, well this was taking ever longer to make the click and I wasn't prepared to risk losing a pair of speakers or worse waiting for it. As it was it seemed uneconomical to fix and I was curious about mini-t amps which have worked well for me since. Cheers for the offer though.

Naughty Nigel
24-03-2014, 09:50
Sorry mate, it went in a clear out some time ago. You know that click it makes a few seconds after its switched on, well this was taking ever longer to make the click and I wasn't prepared to risk losing a pair of speakers or worse waiting for it. As it was it seemed uneconomical to fix and I was curious about mini-t amps which have worked well for me since. Cheers for the offer though.

Hi Richard, the 'click' that you hear is a protection relay, which disconnects the loudspeakers for a few seconds if the amplifier is overloaded. (It is basically an overcurrent protection system. Some amplifiers also incorporate output transistor overheat protection into the same circuit.) If you were to drive (say) two pairs of 4Ω loudspeakers the relay would disconnect them as soon as the output current reached a certain point.

The delay in the relay switching on also prevents the switch-on 'thump' that you get with some transistor amplifiers - by allowing the capacitors time to become fully charged before connecting the loudspeakers. So I very much doubt that there was ever any risk to your speakers.

Oddly enough, the greatest risk to loudspeakers comes from driving them with underpowered transistor amplifiers. If the amplifier is driven to clipping (distortion) the high frequency harmonics produced can easily damage tweeters. Also, if the amplifier is driven to severe distortion, the output waveform will effectively be a square wave, which your loudspeakers may see as a DC voltage. The 'impedance' of loudspeakers is quoted at 1 KHz, but their DC resistance will be much lower, so the high current can overheat woofer voice coils. This too is prevented by overcurrent relays, although purists might not like the idea of this 'unnecessary' switchgear in the signal path. :)

Nigel.