Good quality, cheap IEC power leads - recommendatioins?

[AlexM]

Hi all,

At the risk of being told to search, I am interested in replacing my ragbag of freebie IEC mains leads with a decent set of aftermarket leads. I am looking for recommendations for my C-J PV15+ preamp and LP125S power amps, Cambridge audio 851C CD player and my squeezebox PSU.

I want some leads that have IEC sockets that make reliable contact and a decent amound of copper for the power amp. I need to do this economically as possible, and am interested in what people would recommend at the 'economy' end of the aftermarket spectrum.

I am DIY capable, so that is an option, but am also short of time so would prefer a decent premade aftermarket option. I am generally not a believer in audiophile foo, and can't/won't entertain silly priced options.

Thanks in advance for your input and personal recommendations.

Regards,
Alex

[Barry]

You might find this of interest: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25163-Mains-Lead-Assembly

[Kember]

You might find this of interest: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25163-Mains-Lead-Assembly

What Barry said. It is a satisfying little job, which does not take long and any dealer mark up not paid for can be deposited with your favourite publican/bookie instead:)!

It does not take proportionately longer to lash four or five up all at once given you have your tools, parts and workspace all prepared anyway. One dose of the Archers' ominbus on a Sunday and you'd be done!

[Yomanze]

You could also buy a hydra and wire in 4x or so IEC cables into a single socket.

[Kember]

You could also buy a hydra and wire in 4x or so IEC cables into a single socket.

Funnily enough, I still have one brand new one going begging:) (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30819-Multiplugs-(per-Naim-Hydra))! Yours for a fiver plus postage if interested.

best

P

[AlexM]

Thank you Barry, Peter and Neil.

I would be interested in the Hydra soluton had I not just gone to the trouble of installing a new consumer unit and four double sockets on individual radial circuits, wired with 6mm sq twin and earth!.

Barry, thanks for the link to the DIY cable build instruction thread - it seems like a simple enough DIY project and it does meet my VFM criteria. I think I will go that route, and choose some nice but not outrageous IECs and plugs. Does anyone know the Lapp cable conductor diameter in the linked thread? I'm trying to identify the correct cable in the Lapp product catalogue, and I think it is available up to 2.5mm sq. Is this overkill, and would it make it difficult to fit plugs to?

Thanks again - keep the suggestions coming.

Regards,
Alex

[brian2957]

Lapp Oflex is pretty good Alex ( 2'5mm cores ). It's the cable Rega use in their high end gear http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAPP-OLFLEX-CLASSIC-CY-CABLE-2-5MM-SHIELDED-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-CABLE-FOR-DIY-/150777519797?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item231b0a5eb5
The IEC plug looks like a Martin Kaiser http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MARTIN-KAISER-DE-OXIT-TREATED-IEC-CONNECTOR-AUDIO-GRADE-FOR-ARCAM-LINN-MARANTZ-/150962796802?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item2326157902
I use these http://www.sonarquest.net/sonarquest-red-copper-series-iec-plug-connector-se-rc-t.html
as they're excellent.
MK plugs are usually pretty good
The 2.5mm cable will fit into the Martin Kaiser with the outer sheath stripped off , but will fit into the Sonarquest plugs without any problem. Will also fit into the MK plugs with the outer sheath stripped off and the shielding stripped away.
These are a good deal if you're not sure where to start http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/diy-mains-lead-sets/612-mcru-no-2-diy-mains-lead-set-lapp-cable.html#

[Yomanze]

Supra LoRad is also great and you don't need to solder the shield, so very easy for DIY too.

[Barry]

I believe the cable used in the article is Lapp Olflex SY 1125403, an armoured/screened cable having three cores of 2.5mm2 CSA (16A rating).

However their CY 1136403 cable is similar, but whose conductor insulation follows the current colour coding convention (brown, blue and green/yellow).

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LAPP-Oflex-Classic-mains-cable-with-MK-Toughplug-Wattgate-style-connectors-/00/s/NjAwWDYwMA==/z/X-kAAOxyOlhS8NBx/$_1.JPG

[AlexM]

Thanks Brian, Neil and Barry,

That's great info.. exactly what I needed. I think I will do with the Lapp/Martin Kaiser/MK option. Can't go too far wrong at a tenner a lead. I'll look at some Supra LoRad also if it is a little more workable.

Best regards,
Alex

[Yomanze]

For the record Alex I use several of the same cable you're thinking of making but with Schurter IEC sockets instead of Martin Kaiser, much of a muchness with these IECs though. Just good solid cables!

[AlexM]

Brian,

I also ordered a couple of the Sonarquest IECs on your recommendation. Rhodium plated versions with Cryo treatment (if we should care) are only $15 with free shipping to the UK!. I've got to say that they look very good, with nicely formed contacts with a large contact area - should be a very secure fit.

They look pretty blingy too!.

Thanks for the spot...

Regards,
Alex

[Clive197]

The Supra LoRad gets my vote, very easy to work with. You probably only need the 1.5 unless your drawing very large amounts of juice.

A MK Toughplug on one end with the standard Wattgate IEC will give you a 1.5m cost of less than £50.

Clive

[brian2957]

Brian,

I also ordered a couple of the Sonarquest IECs on your recommendation. Rhodium plated versions with Cryo treatment (if we should care) are only $15 with free shipping to the UK!. I've got to say that they look very good, with nicely formed contacts with a large contact area - should be a very secure fit.

They look pretty blingy too!.

Thanks for the spot...

Regards,
Alex

They are very good . I use a couple of the copper plugs on my cables . Large contact area and a very tight fit . Very good quality and easy to wire up . Great for the price Alex.

[nat8808]

Then sell each one for £150 via your own website with a swanky name!

..or Ebay store.

[brian2957]

They are very good . I use a couple of the copper plugs on my cables . Large contact area and a very tight fit . Very good quality and easy to wire up . Great for the price Alex.
Edit . Just ordered a couple of the rhodium plated plugs Alex. Can't go wrong at that price :)

[Ninanina]

For what it's worth I can highly recommend the Mark Grant DSP 2.5 silver plated mains cable. It has done wonders in my system; it's especially good with voices, male or female

I think they are also a bargain at £55 for a metre set

[Oldpinkman]

I do hope this thread draws it's last breath soon, because I have a grazed and sore forehead seeing it in the daily lists. Alex, let me know once you have them, if you are sure, money on the table sure, you can tell one cable from another true blind.

[The Grand Wazoo]

You'd better get yourself a helmet then Richard, because you can bet yer boots that there'll be another one to follow.....and another......and another....

[Gordon Steadman]

I've just thrown away all the damn 'audiophile' mains leads in my system. The leads are so stiff, they won't bend in order to position them easily and now they are out of the system, it sounds exactly the same. I'd keep the rag tags and save yourself some dosh:eyebrows:

I now have a nice collection of plugs with oversize holes that I can't use for 'proper' leads!!

[Marco]

You'd better get yourself a helmet then Richard, because you can bet yer boots that there'll be another one to follow.....and another......and another....

Indeed! Still got this bee in your bonnet about mains leads, Richard?

Well, it's going to be buzzing away for quite some time, if you remain a part of AoS... Get used to it, stop crapping on these threads that annoy you so, and embrace the fact that some of us use aftermarket mains reasons for genuine sonic reasons. Your interference here is of zero help to the OP.

I've warned you about this before, and so if I see any more posts like that from you, you'll be out for a week. This pointless 'campaign' of yours against 'fancy mains cables' ends now.

Marco.

[Clive]

I do hope this thread draws it's last breath soon, because I have a grazed and sore forehead seeing it in the daily lists. Alex, let me know once you have them, if you are sure, money on the table sure, you can tell one cable from another true blind.
Alex will hopefully tell us about his intent but the way I read it he's simply wanting well made mains leads with quality connectors, not the cheap and nasty stuff that comes with most kit.

[Audioman]

I have some sympathy with Gordon and Richard here. My experience trying a Russ Andrews budget lead on different pieces of equipment had varying results from substantial to no difference. I can only conclude the effect may depend both on mains quality and the quality of inbuilt transformers and mains regulation. Also I think there is a difference between spending on a reasonably priced cable that uses quality connections and one of those crazy priced things that claim the use of all sorts of dubious technology to 'improve' sound.

Paul.

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

Whether you have sympathy with Richard or Gordon's view here is irrelevant.

The point is that this is not a tedious discussion about the efficacy or otherwise of aftermarket mains leads. The OP has asked for advice on which good quality, cheap aftermarket IEC power leads to buy, and advice relating to that is the ONLY input that will be permitted on this thread.


I am interested in replacing my ragbag of freebie IEC mains leads with a decent set of aftermarket leads.

Where does it indicate there that Alex wants to be told that anything better than his freebie mains leads is created by his 'imagination'?

If Richard or Gordon want to start another pointless and tedious circular argument about mains leads on a separate thread, then they can do so, and we'll see where it goes, but threads like this where members are asking specific questions about mains leads will not be allowed to be polluted by other people's agendas.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Hi Paul,

Whether you have sympathy with Richard or Gordon's view here is irrelevant.

The point is, this is not a tedious discussion about the efficacy or otherwise of aftermarket mains leads. The OP has asked for advice on which good quality, cheap aftermarket IEC power leads to buy, and advice relating to that is the ONLY input that will be permitted on this thread.

If Richard or Gordon want to start another pointless and tedious circular argument about mains leads on a separate thread, then they can do so, and we'll see where it goes, but threads like this where members are asking specific questions about mains leads will not be allowed to be polluted by other people's agendas.

Marco.

No Marco, I have no interest in any debate which is , as you point out, tedious and pointless. I have an interest in Alex's honest report of his findings when he makes the change, which is what I asked for. I have studiously avoided getting involved in any debate.

[Marco]

No Marco, I have no interest in any debate which is , as you point out, tedious and pointless. I have an interest in Alex's honest report of his findings when he makes the change, which is what I asked for. I have studiously avoided getting involved in any debate.

Well, your earlier remarks about sore heads, or whatever, which Chris picked up on, were unacceptable and suggested the opposite of the above, so if you're to comment on this thread again, I want to see nothing unconstructive, in respect of the OP's original enquiry, about aftermarket mains leads.

Do I make myself clear?

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Well your earlier comments about sore heads, or whatever, which Chris picked up on, were unacceptable and suggested the opposite of the above, so if you're to comment on this thread again I want to see no mention of anything negative about aftermarket mains leads.

Do I make myself clear?

Marco.

I think it may be time for me to join Arthur

[Marco]

Be my guest!


I do hope this thread draws it's last breath soon, because I have a grazed and sore forehead seeing it in the daily lists. Alex, let me know once you have them, if you are sure, money on the table sure, you can tell one cable from another true blind.

You must think we're daft if you think the above isn't you having (yet another) snipe at someone who *might* consider that aftermarket mains leads are better than freebie ones. Why does that bother you so much?

Your mania about this, and your continual attempt to 'educate' others who may think differently to you in that respect is what is unacceptable, not your personal views on the matter that you're entitled to.

Why should Alex have any interest in blind testing whether whatever aftermarket mains leads he ends up buying are better than what he had before? He might do, but equally, he might just trust his ears!!

Marco.

[Clive]

No Marco, I have no interest in any debate which is , as you point out, tedious and pointless. I have an interest in Alex's honest report of his findings when he makes the change, which is what I asked for. I have studiously avoided getting involved in any debate.
It looks like you've chosen to start an argument where none existed. Alex wants well made leads with decent connectors. Rather like someone who prefers a car with doors that close will a well-engineered sounding clunk. He's not suggesting better leads will transform his system, he may think this, he may not. He may simply want to feel good about having well made mains cables in his pride and joy system.

[Marco]

It looks like you've chosen to start an argument where none existed. Alex wants well made leads with decent connectors. Rather like someone who prefers a car with doors that close will a well-engineered sounding clunk. He's not suggesting better leads will transform his system, he may think this, he may not. He may simply want to feel good about having well made mains cables in his pride and joy system.

Precisely, Clive!

The problem is, Richard is irked (hence the sore forehead reference earlier) whenever he sees a discussion of something purported to be worthwhile that doesn't conform to his beliefs, so he has to get in there and 'prove' that they (and it) are wrong, in order to make him feel better about being 'right' :rolleyes:

An expert in cognitive dissonance would have a field day!

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

For what it's worth I can highly recommend the Mark Grant DSP 2.5 silver plated mains cable. It has done wonders in my system; it's especially good with voices, male or female

I think they are also a bargain at £55 for a metre set

This comment preceded mine Clive. I take your point about the OP's question. But not all responses were focussed solely on the clunk of the door. Some referred to how much faster it made the car go. :)

[Audioman]

Precisely, Clive!

The problem is, Richard is irked (hence the sore forehead reference earlier) whenever he sees a discussion of something purported to be worthwhile that doesn't conform to his beliefs, so he has to get in there and 'prove' that they (and it) are wrong, in order to make him feel better about being 'right' :rolleyes:

An expert in cognitive dissonance would have a field day!

Marco.

I think Richard is going by his personal experience not 'beliefs'. If we go on beliefs hi-fi becomes a religion and judging by some forum discussions it is to some people. I fully accept the reasons Alex has for seeking advice and since he is looking for reasonably priced cables I don't think he should be discouraged though I hope he is not expecting a night and day improvement in sound. If he was about to buy £1000 leads I would certainly support the naysayers at least until he convinced himself cheaper leads make a difference.

Paul.

[Marco]

I think Richard is going by his personal experience not 'beliefs'.

Sure. Substitute "beliefs" with "personal experience" in the post you've quoted, and its core meaning remains the same.

Richard needs to accept, once and for all, that AoS is primarily a subjectivist-orientated forum, where ears will ultimately always be trusted more than blind tests or measurements, and so poking the 'mains lead believers' continually (however thinly disguised), because their views don't align with his personal experience, to make him feel better about himself (or for any other reason), is totally unacceptable.

If he does it again, he'll be taking a holiday from here - and possibly a long one. It's as simple as that.

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

threads like this where members are asking specific questions about mains leads will not be allowed to be polluted by other people's agendas.

Marco.

You leave my agenda out of this - my sexual orientation is none of your damn business:eyebrows:

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Marco.

[Joe]

Sure. Substitute "beliefs" with "personal experience" in the post you've quoted, and its core meaning remains the same.

Richard needs to accept, once and for all, that AoS is primarily a subjectivist-orientated forum, where ears will ultimately always be trusted more than blind tests or measurements, and so poking the 'mains lead believers' continually (however thinly disguised), because their views don't align with his personal experience, to make him feel better about himself (or for any other reason), is totally unacceptable.

If he does it again, he'll be taking a holiday from here - and possibly a long one. It's as simple as that.

Marco.

Here's what you posted when you were accused of 'thread crapping':

'It's called thread drift, dude, and it happens all the time!

Furthermore, I'm only one person posting my opinion - if enough people want the discussion to go in a different direction, and offer their contrary opinions, then all they have to do is contribute to that effect and it will happen. Simples'

So when is posting a contrary opinion OK, and when does it constitute thread-crapping?

[Joe]

Sure. Substitute "beliefs" with "personal experience" in the post you've quoted, and its core meaning remains the same.

Richard needs to accept, once and for all, that AoS is primarily a subjectivist-orientated forum, where ears will ultimately always be trusted more than blind tests or measurements, and so poking the 'mains lead believers' continually (however thinly disguised), because their views don't align with his personal experience, to make him feel better about himself (or for any other reason), is totally unacceptable.

If he does it again, he'll be taking a holiday from here - and possibly a long one. It's as simple as that.

Marco.

Here's what you posted when you were accused of 'thread crapping':

'It's called thread drift, dude, and it happens all the time!

Furthermore, I'm only one person posting my opinion - if enough people want the discussion to go in a different direction, and offer their contrary opinions, then all they have to do is contribute to that effect and it will happen. Simples'

So when is posting a contrary opinion OK, and when does it constitute thread-crapping?

[Marco]

So when is posting a contrary opinion OK, and when does it constitute thread-crapping?

Good afternoon, Joe! Have you developed a stutter? :D

Quite simply, there's a difference between thread drift and thread crapping. The former is acceptable if the nature of the drift is appreciated by the OP and/or those responsible for creating it. Clearly, given Alex's recent comments, he didn't appreciate Richard's input on the thread he started about mains leads.

The latter (thread crapping) is never acceptable, as it usually (as in this case) involves the derailing of a discussion, relevant to those interested in the topic, by someone more interested in imposing their own agenda on proceedings, than in genuinely helping the OP.

I trust that clears matters up to your satisfaction? If not, then I'm here to help :)

Marco.

[Jimbo]

I started a similar discussion regarding mains leads about a year ago when I first joined the AOS forum and I was indeed looking for advice and suggestions even though the debate was polarising. This was fair enough as I have learned that not all people can HEAR differences and the positive benefit well shielded mains cables can bring to a system. The debate did cause a fairly heated discussion but I was glad it was not closed down just because one person thought mains cables made no difference and they were bored by the subject!:)

[AlexM]

Alex will hopefully tell us about his intent but the way I read it he's simply wanting well made mains leads with quality connectors, not the cheap and nasty stuff that comes with most kit.

Lol! look what happens when I turn my back for a moment!.

Clive gets the prize for divining my intent - I think that some of the crappy old IEC terminals on the leads I am using may have either oxidised or 'relaxed', leading to an intermittent power connection on my CD player and/or some rather worrying cracking noises through the speakers. Given I know nothing about their provenance, what they were originally supplied with or what cabling they use I simply wanted to replace them with something that had a specification I understood.

So, I went with safe, non-foo options that are of apparently decent quality - MK plugs, a partially braded 2.5mmsq mains cable, and some IEC plugs that are big enough to wire easily enough, and have properly formed contact pins to ensure that the pins in the socket are gripped tightly. Ok, I went a little foo in that I specified silver plated pins (+£10) on the three MKs and rhodium plating on the IECs (+$9!). As it is such a minimal cost uplift I don't really care. Screened mains leads? I am making them up that way because it is easy and can't hurt. I don't think I have a noise issue, but if it either helps reduce EMI ingress into the component, or reduces EMI radiation then that would probably be a good thing. I might try to tidy up my cabling runs at the same time, more for neatness than anything else.

Given the baseline, the only way is up for sure, but other than that I don't have any real expectations that the sound of the system will change other than this particular problem will be resolved, and that the system will will be performing at it's best. If there are any miraculous tranformations I will be sure to let you know, and will post a picture of the finished product.

BTW, please feel free to continue, as I have the answers I need so the rest of thread can be dedicated to baiting, entertainment, metaphysical debates or whatever :). Marco, I hadn't seen any of Richard's comments, and to honest I'm fine with them anyway. I did read through the last mains cable saga, so I'm quite clear on his stance on the matter - my own POV is probably not too different in truth.

Regards,
Alex

[Joe]

Good afternoon, Joe! Have you developed a stutter? :D

Quite simply, there's a difference between thread drift and thread crapping. The former is acceptable if the nature of the drift is appreciated by the OP and/or those responsible for creating it. Clearly, given Alex's recent comments, he didn't appreciate Richard's input on the thread he started about mains leads.

The latter (thread crapping) is never acceptable, as it usually (as in this case) involves the derailing of a discussion, relevant to those interested in the topic, by someone more interested in imposing their own agenda on proceedings, than in genuinely helping the OP.

I trust that clears matters up to your satisfaction? If not, then I'm here to help :)

Marco.

Well it seems to me that your response to Tim's thread about the accuracy of digital vs analogue falls firmly into the second of the two categories; ie you didn't think discussing accuracy was 'interesting', so (instead of simply ignoring the thread) you started talking about something else; ie you imposed your own agenda on proceedings.

[Marco]

I'm afraid you're wrong, Joe, and in any case, what has that got to do with the intended topic of this thread? Now YOU are guilty of thread crapping! :eyebrows:

If you want to challenge me on the issue you've raised, please do so on Tim's thread, where I will gladly point out where you are wrong.

Marco.

[Marco]

Marco, I hadn't seen any of Richard's comments, and to honest I'm fine with them anyway. I did read through the last mains cable saga, so I'm quite clear on his stance on the matter - my own POV is probably not too different in truth.


No worries, Alex. It's your ball. I just thought that your comments on the other thread in Analogue Art may also have had some relevance here:


Honestly Richard, I do think you are percieivng slights where there are none. You don't need to act as an interlocutor on anyone's behalf, and this is all beginning to look somewhat silly. Take a few deep breaths and then find something else talk about!.


;)

Marco.

[MCRU]

I took an enormous box full of the DIY mains lead sets with 1mtr LAPP cable, a permaplug with silver plated fuse and a kaiser IEC to Bristol,
they sell for £10, the same I took last year, I think there were roughly 80 sets in the box, all were gone by the end of the 2nd day

Yes you won't suddenly transform your hi-fi into a live performance in your listening room, no one ever claimed that, but all the usual
people who jump into discussions (anything remotely relating to mains leads) with their usual agendas about them making no difference
should honestly go and do some gardening, crown green bowling or whatever else they have to amuse themselves as the AOS is in danger
of turning into another well know forum which whose name escapes me but it's not a pleasant place to hang out. :)

[Joe]

I took an enormous box full of the DIY mains lead sets with 1mtr LAPP cable, a permaplug with silver plated fuse and a kaiser IEC to Bristol,
they sell for £10, the same I took last year, I think there were roughly 80 sets in the box, all were gone by the end of the 2nd day

Yes you won't suddenly transform your hi-fi into a live performance in your listening room, no one ever claimed that, but all the usual
people who jump into discussions (anything remotely relating to mains leads) with their usual agendas about them making no difference
should honestly go and do some gardening, crown green bowling or whatever else they have to amuse themselves as the AOS is in danger
of turning into another well know forum which whose name escapes me but it's not a pleasant place to hang out. :)

But surely saying mains cables make no difference is just as much a subjective opinion as saying they do? Or are some subjective opinions* more acceptable than others?

*Can there be such a thing as an objective opinion?

[Marco]

It's quite simple, Joe.

If you want to say that mains cables make no difference, then do so on a new thread, not on one where the OP has asked for advice on which aftermarket ones may be good to buy, from those with relevant experience, otherwise your opinion, in the context of this thread, is unwelcome and of zero value to him or her, although in this instance Alex has been very tolerant.

Now, have we enjoyed the full dose of your pedantry for today, or can we look forward to more?

Marco.

[Marco]

...as the AOS is in danger of turning into another well know forum which whose name escapes me but it's not a pleasant place to hang out. :)

No chance, as I would simply not allow it. Those who continually delight in being 'off message' (as per our ethos), for whatever blinkered self-satisfaction it gives them, will simply be removed when their asset to liability ratio goes into deficit! ;)

There will always be plenty of others left who just want to talk about hi-fi and music, in a friendly and respectful fashion, whilst fitting in with the framework we provide for AoS as a community.

Marco.

[MCRU]

No chance, as I would simply not allow it. Those who continually delight in being 'off message' (as per our ethos), for whatever blinkered self-satisfaction it gives them, will simply be removed when their asset to liability ratio goes into deficit! ;)

There will always be plenty of others left who just want to talk about hi-fi and music, in a friendly and respectful fashion, whilst fitting in with the framework we provide for AoS as a community.

Marco.

Good man

Now ban all the usual anti mains cables posters and all will be good :lol:

[AlexM]

David,

Now get off the Interweb and prepare my order please! :cool:

Alex :)

[wee tee cee]

Brian and Gary (gazjam) did quite a comprehensive assessment of numerous plugs and wires in conjunction with theyre kit. I got to hear a few including my own that gary hot rodded for me-subtle differences with different plug materials and cable. Synergy may well play a significant role in different applications. Good fun experimenting without breaking the bank.

[Jimbo]

Hi all,

At the risk of being told to search, I am interested in replacing my ragbag of freebie IEC mains leads with a decent set of aftermarket leads. I am looking for recommendations for my C-J PV15+ preamp and LP125S power amps, Cambridge audio 851C CD player and my squeezebox PSU.

I want some leads that have IEC sockets that make reliable contact and a decent amound of copper for the power amp. I need to do this

economically as possible, and am interested in what people would recommend at the 'economy' end of the aftermarket spectrum.

I am DIY capable, so that is an option, but am also short of time so would prefer a decent premade aftermarket option. I am generally not a believer in audiophile foo, and can't/won't entertain silly priced options.

Thanks in advance for your input and personal recommendations.

Regards,
Alex

How much do you want to spend Alex?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I dont think you need to spend a fortune of mains cables. Well shielded mains leads with large core diameter copper conductors, a decent silver plated plug (perma or toughplug) and a decent bussmann silver plated fuse work very well for me thanks very much (thanks for the stuff Dave). Such a setup powers my valve system and works a treat.

[AlexM]

I should say as close to zero as possible, but then I start getting carried away with over-engineered IEC sockets, silver or rhodium platings etc and then... oh dear :)

[AlexM]

Ferrite cores or not?. with a screen on the mains leads, I'd have thought not, but what do you think?

What about size and positionig? one on either end?. I don't expect that my kit should reradiate significant HF EMF via the mains lead, but I do have a couple of powerline adaptors in the house (sorry radio hams :)).

Regards,
Alex

[brian2957]

Never used them on any of my cables Alex and always been happy with the results .

[Ninanina]

I can only add again that DEFINITELY the Mark Grant DSP 2.5 Silver Plated mains cable has improved my system.. I don't mean to understand why I just know it has made a difference.... I hope that helps some :thumbsup:

[RichB]

Brian and Gary (gazjam) did quite a comprehensive assessment of numerous plugs and wires in conjunction with theyre kit. I got to hear a few including my own that gary hot rodded for me-subtle differences with different plug materials and cable. Synergy may well play a significant role in different applications. Good fun experimenting without breaking the bank.

Yes, spot on Tony. I did pretty much the same and I'm happy with my 'budget' leads and enjoyed making them up and installing them in my system. Whether they make a difference or not I couldn't really care and reckon that moderate improvements can be achieved but given it was pocket money spent I've never considered it a big deal. I'd say to the OP, the only way you'll know is to try.

[nat8808]

I don't care what people say about cables making a difference..

I like a good MK Toughplug and non-moulded IEC and something both flexible and good looking in between. And of course not so damn long that it sticks up or coils everywhere.

I like the idea also of finding some scrap, over-spec'd cable like the Belden that people faun over - it's nothing but fireproof cable, that red stuff, used for fire alarms (now discontinued so is "audiophile" rare stuff) but looks cool.. Some nice coloured woven shieth is good too, e.g bright red like some Polish brand I've seen.

I'm willing to go as far to pay for a nice looking and nice to use cable but not until I've spent that money on the actual components first! Why ice a cake if you're going to throw it in the bin and bake another one when you're bored?

[MCRU]

I don't care what people say about cables making a difference..

I like a good MK Toughplug and non-moulded IEC and something both flexible and good looking in between. And of course not so damn long that it sticks up or coils everywhere.

I like the idea also of finding some scrap, over-spec'd cable like the Belden that people faun over - it's nothing but fireproof cable, that red stuff, used for fire alarms (now discontinued so is "audiophile" rare stuff) but looks cool.. Some nice coloured woven shieth is good too, e.g bright red like some Polish brand I've seen.

I'm willing to go as far to pay for a nice looking and nice to use cable but not until I've spent that money on the actual components first! Why ice a cake if you're going to throw it in the bin and bake another one when you're bored?

belden 83803 is what you refer to and it's still available (I have 5 reels on order so it must be)

it is used for fire alarms quite correct but it sounds bloody good with an mk plug on one end and a wattgate on the other! why you heard it was dis-continued is strange!

[Barry]

I would prefer to use Belden 19364 : http://belden.com/techdatas/english/19364.pdf

[nat8808]

belden 83803 is what you refer to and it's still available (I have 5 reels on order so it must be)

it is used for fire alarms quite correct but it sounds bloody good with an mk plug on one end and a wattgate on the other! why you heard it was dis-continued is strange!

Ah! Must be what happens when you rely on RS to give you info - marked as discontinued on RS.

[nat8808]

I would prefer to use Belden 19364 : http://belden.com/techdatas/english/19364.pdf

But Teflon/PTFE dialectric is a more of a trigger phrase in hifi circles than PVC and it doesn't have the copper braided shield (no hifi person would be happy with just an aluminium foil shield! Got to be copper or silver, ok or paladium in some expensive cases).

I think one has to have a very holistic view and so even if differences between Teflon and PVC dialectric can't be heard logically, a holstic view will also take into account the possibility of the placebo effect and so marketing of the idea that Teflon sounds better means that it WILL sound better to anyone who's absorbed enough of the marketing from the general hifi industry and forums.

So if you want your system to sound the best to YOU, having maximum pleasurable effects on your brain, you need to go along with all hifi marketing to get the maximum placebo effect, budget permitting.

That's not a piss-take or 100% being sarcastic (it's probably 50:50 sarcasm beause it confuses me TBH) - I really do believe that if one has the budget, getting maximum placebo effect will have a REAL and demonstrable (via brain imaging) positive effect on your listening pleasure. And that's a confusing realisation to have..

How does one know what is going to have a positive placebo effect if you're a cynic like me? Am I really a cynic or is that just a logical belief and I have subconsciously absorbed the marketing and so foo will have a strong placebo effect? Confusing... and hence I will leave fancy cabling for when I've lost interest in trying new kit, just try not to think about it at all.. but some cables do look pretty!

[nat8808]

Here's a good amazon review of a Wattgate product, a mains socket: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3D0MJSZQKVPR8/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt/190-9864779-1234921#R3D0MJSZQKVPR8


150 of 170 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Great item, but please be careful with it., October 26, 2009
By
J. Jarzab
This review is from: Wattgate 381 Audio Grade Duplex Receptacle Outlet (Tools & Home Improvement)


I received my Wattgate 381 Audio Grade Duplex Socket by Wattgate in the mail yesterday. Well, I shouldn't say "in" the mail because when I went to my porch to get the package, the package was just floating there. It was about 2 or 3 feet off the ground. I grabbed the delivery man before he left (as he was right down the street) and he said, and I quote "I don't want any trouble, just take your package and leave me alone".

Not only was that odd, but when I took it inside, I couldn't put it down on the table. The package would just float. Very strange indeed. I go to open the package and I find there is nothing inside. Now I am angry. This is supposed to be the best receptacle on the market and all I got was a floating box. Inside there is a piece of paper. "Place a drop of water in the box".

As I have nothing else to do, I add a drop of water to the bottom of the box and to my surprise the receptacle began to re-assemble itself. I should have known. Nano-machine technology. Apparently this item was assembled using nano machines and shipped with nano machines. Normal box packaging would damage the sensitive audio components. I should have known.

Unfortunately one of the machines went haywire, escaped the box and ate my television. I am not happy about it. However, I did install the socket after throwing the box in the yard (the machines die after being outside for 20 minutes). I have never, in my life heard audio like this. I finally understood Mozart, Beethoven and Nirvana. I understand music on a whole new level. I have become...a music God. I only drink Tuscan Whole Milk. I am one.

[Blueflash]

As I prefer DIY where possible, I put together my mains leads using Lorad 2.5, Furutech gold plated IEC and the Furutech gold plated mains plug. Furutech have the best made mains plugs, good electrical contact, large enough to take the Lorad 2.5 with no problem and a decent design clamp for the wire.
I use Lorad 2.5 as it will be capable of driving anything and has the bonus of 100% shielding which has been a great help dealing with Wifi and SMPS spraying EMI/RFI everywhere.
With the above setup I am covered technically so there should be nothing else needed.
I cannot comment on how it could improve the sound quality because I have a balanced mains transformer which has cured all mains complaints.
I can listen any time of day now instead of the late night sessions :-)

[nat8808]

Kind of tempted to buy a 100m reel of firealarm cable off ebay for £20 or whatever people's surplus goes for - fire cable is always shielded, some solid core too if that's your thing. Many firealarm cable has a naked earth which is in contact with the shield which does make it easy to connect without having to stuff a braided shield in with the earth wire at one end.

Normally only available in red but that Belkin orange/red is still nicer...

[MCRU]

Kind of tempted to buy a 100m reel of firealarm cable off ebay for £20 or whatever people's surplus goes for - fire cable is always shielded, some solid core too if that's your thing. Many firealarm cable has a naked earth which is in contact with the shield which does make it easy to connect without having to stuff a braided shield in with the earth wire at one end.

Normally only available in red but that Belkin orange/red is still nicer...

ebay, the world's largest outlet for dodgy gear, I would never buy cable off there unless its a proper branded make like belden, and even then it could be fake as I have known in the past

the average hi-fi punter would have at most maybe 10 pieces of kit in his system, many less, a few more, so maximum 10 mains leads, even using belden 19364 at £5-£7 per metre and a cheap plug and IEC it works out around £12-£15 per lead

hardly breaking the bank I think? :)

[Gordon Steadman]

But Teflon/PTFE dialectric is a more of a trigger phrase in hifi circles than PVC and it doesn't have the copper braided shield (no hifi person would be happy with just an aluminium foil shield! Got to be copper or silver, ok or paladium in some expensive cases).

I think one has to have a very holistic view and so even if differences between Teflon and PVC dialectric can't be heard logically, a holstic view will also take into account the possibility of the placebo effect and so marketing of the idea that Teflon sounds better means that it WILL sound better to anyone who's absorbed enough of the marketing from the general hifi industry and forums.

So if you want your system to sound the best to YOU, having maximum pleasurable effects on your brain, you need to go along with all hifi marketing to get the maximum placebo effect, budget permitting.

That's not a piss-take or 100% being sarcastic (it's probably 50:50 sarcasm beause it confuses me TBH) - I really do believe that if one has the budget, getting maximum placebo effect will have a REAL and demonstrable (via brain imaging) positive effect on your listening pleasure. And that's a confusing realisation to have..

How does one know what is going to have a positive placebo effect if you're a cynic like me? Am I really a cynic or is that just a logical belief and I have subconsciously absorbed the marketing and so foo will have a strong placebo effect? Confusing... and hence I will leave fancy cabling for when I've lost interest in trying new kit, just try not to think about it at all.. but some cables do look pretty!

:):cool:We appear to be singing from the same song sheet!!! However, I bet I'm a bigger cynic than you:ner:

[AlexM]

Nat,

If the psycoacoustic properties of the cable make a difference to the perception of the sound, then surely the amount of finger bruising incurred during the assembly also has an influence (greater investment in skinned knuckles and pain).

I made up the first two cables, and so far so good. The martin kaiser IECs are a much better (tighter) fit than the generic moulded IEC lead. The MK Toughplugs aren't really the best choice with this cable - even after stipping the outer jacket and braided screen, the flap-style cable restraints are sooo tight - it is very difficult to feed the inner jacket through the gate. I'm not sure that any other BS1363-style (i.e. UK 3 pin) plugs would be better - I think with a cable this thick you really need direct entry into what would be the top of the plug. I really couldn't have imagined how hard a time you can have wiring a plug!. If the Belden cable with the aluminised screen is more managable, I think it would be worth seeking it out as this stuff is a sod to squeeze into a plug, albeit a nicely made, good quality one!.

So - does it sound any better?. Well, I think that it might have resolved a problem that I knew I had - a loose connection causing intermittent noises in the pre-amp - micro arcing?. I am listening to SRV 'Tin Pan Alley' as I speak, and it does indeed sound clean, open, detailed with lower background noise. I will have to see whether some other recordings that are well known to me also sound good.

In terms of sound quality I think it is too soon to draw any general conclusions. - in most cases for most people, the existing power leads will be working fine, and mine weren't. They look so insubstancial and wimpy next to the Oilflex leadsit is ridiculous. I think the conductors will be 1 or 1.5mm sq at most - it looks like lamp flex!. A source component would probably be fine with this, but my power amp? I'm not too sure...

I have also taken the opportunity to sort out (reroute and tidy-up) my mains cabling, and have changed the socket that the pre-and power amps use (previously they shared a double socket, and are now on seperate radial circuits - pre-amp is now connected to the CD Player/DAC, which is the only source component with it's own earth (TT earths via the pre-amp), so this may have had a beneficial effect.

So far, so good. I'll post more listening impressions once I have had a chance to do a litlle more listening. Thanks again to Barry, Peter, Neil and everyone who has contributed advice and tips on the thread!.

Bet regards,
Alex

[Barry]

But Teflon/PTFE dielectric is a more of a trigger phrase in hifi circles than PVC and it doesn't have the copper braided shield (no hifi person would be happy with just an aluminium foil shield! Got to be copper or silver, ok or paladium in some expensive cases).



Having worked in electronics research for nearly thirty years, I am quite familiar with the dielectric properties of PTFE, PVC as well as other polymer dielectrics. I also know about shielding: a foil shield will have better optical coverage than a braided shield, and at mains frequencies the surface transfer impedance will be sufficiently low (typically 0.05Ω/m) for good shielding against RFI (the shielding efficiency is calculated to be –75dB for a 1m lead supplying mains current to a load of 500W, and corresponding better for lower mains currents.).

Likewise the dielectric loss (or loss tangent) of both PVC and PTFE is very, very small at mains frequencies (0.02 and 0.0002 respectively at 50Hz and at room temperature), implying a dielectric loss of 1.6 10-7 dB/m and 1.3 10-9 dB/m respectively at 50Hz.

My preference for Belden 19364 over Belden 83803 is simply because the former is more flexible, it looks "nicer" than the awful red cladding of the 83803 (:sofa:), uses conductor insulation that corresponds to the current IEC colour code convention and has a more than adequate current capacity.

[nat8808]

My preference for Belden 19364 over Belden 83803 is simply because the former is more flexible, it looks "nicer" than the awful red cladding of the 83803 (:sofa:), uses conductor insulation that corresponds to the current IEC colour code convention and has a more than adequate current capacity.

Hmm... it's just black isn't it?

The 83803 also seems to have a thinner outer skin so you can see the twist of the individual conductors .. makes it look much more industrial and special.

[nat8808]

Nat,

If the psycoacoustic properties of the cable make a difference to the perception of the sound, then surely the amount of finger bruising incurred during the assembly also has an influence (greater investment in skinned knuckles and pain).

....

In terms of sound quality I think it is too soon to draw any general conclusions. - in most cases for most people, the existing power leads will be working fine, and mine weren't. They look so insubstancial and wimpy next to the Oilflex leadsit is ridiculous. I think the conductors will be 1 or 1.5mm sq at most - it looks like lamp flex!. A source component would probably be fine with this, but my power amp? I'm not too sure...



You would have to believe that the finger brusing contributed to the sound and I don't think you do.. else you'd be slamming your fingers in draws in the kitchen whilst waiting for the kettle to boil in between records.

Rule of thumb is apparently 6A x the sq mm so 1 - 1.5sq mm is 6 - 9A. So for 6A carrying capacity, the absolute max wattage of your amp (not sound output, but electrical rating) can be 1440W but of course that leaves no headroom at all. 9A (1.5sq mm) would allow 2160W maximum.

Then the IEC plug/socket standard is only rated to 10A anyway! Any amp with IECs should be running well under that. So probably 1.5sq mm is a close match to the IEC rating..

My 150 Watt valve amps have IEC sockets so can't be expected to draw anything near 10A.

In other words, the idea that one needs massively thick cables else your amp will be limited in power draw etc is foo... unless there's some other theory other than the basic maths, which there could be of course.


Anyway, the best bit of making your own cables is sorting out the mess behind the rack!

[Kember]

Anyway, the best bit of making your own cables is sorting out the mess behind the rack!

Nat,

Surely you mean "creating" the mess!

And I've got airlines to add...:)

P

[nat8808]

ebay, the world's largest outlet for dodgy gear, I would never buy cable off there unless its a proper branded make like belden, and even then it could be fake as I have known in the past

the average hi-fi punter would have at most maybe 10 pieces of kit in his system, many less, a few more, so maximum 10 mains leads, even using belden 19364 at £5-£7 per metre and a cheap plug and IEC it works out around £12-£15 per lead

hardly breaking the bank I think? :)

That's what I mean, still sealed 100m reels of FP200 (there are a few well known brands who use FP200 as a product number) normally end up about £20.

People's system's move about, want different lengths for different places - handy to have some spare around. Then you can make the odd one or two and sell them on ebay, listing the branded cable's properties etc - I'm sure £30/1.5m would be easy to do and so pay for the reel of cable after a few sales. Rough guess of £16 for parts including a bit of shrinkwrap + ebay fees make £14 per lead and probably get one made in about 10 minutes or less if you've got a little space to do it. 5 in a hour plus a cup of tea = £70/hour . Everything you made for yourself then becomes free! Of course, you're likely going to have to wait a while to actually make the sales unless you've spend time building a brand etc..

I really need to practice what I preach!

[nat8808]

Nat,

Surely you mean "creating" the mess!

And I've got airlines to add...:)

P

It will be tidy for a day or so, right until the little bits of tape you might have used loose their stick and the careful routing all falls down.. or until you start plugging in new equipment to try out and switch all the cables about.

If you make your airlines out of brass tubing you won't be able to move them about so they can stay pretty tidy.

[AlexM]

Here's a good amazon review of a Wattgate product, a mains socket: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3D0MJSZQKVPR8/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt/190-9864779-1234921#R3D0MJSZQKVPR8


You would have to believe that the finger brusing contributed to the sound and I don't think you do.. else you'd be slamming your fingers in draws in the kitchen whilst waiting for the kettle to boil in between records. !

I think you would also need to have a theory of a chain causation for expectation bias to arise!.

I'm happy enough now that my desire for a secure, positive connection at the amp IEC has been satisfied. I don't necessarily think massive cables are a necessity for good sound, but a non intermittent connection probably is!.

Regards,
Alex

[Barry]

Hmm... it's just black isn't it?

The 83803 also seems to have a thinner outer skin so you can see the twist of the individual conductors .. makes it look much more industrial and special.

I like black! ;)