Placebo effects (again)

[nat8808]

Interesting show on World Service on Saturday night:

Interesting parts were, paraphrasing of course;

- That price doesn't just effect our logical judgement it actually changes the brain's reaction and increases pleasure activity in the brain therefore creating REAL emotional and subject feelings of something being better.

- Wine tasters who were more verbose about flavours and enjoyed talking about flavours and their sensory experience were much worse at wine tasting experiements (where the wine was the same all the way through, but other aspects changed) whereas quiet tatsers were more able to actually pay attention to their senses more reliably.

- Music which is different to expectation (chord changes out of the ordinary etc) create physical chills down your neck - some emotional response to music could just be animalistic instint reacting to something jumping out of the environment.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01sqlyw

The Power of Expectation

Can our expectations affect the outcome of what we do? This week we look at the power of expectation. How good are you at blind tasting? Could you tell if you sipped three different cups of coffee which was the best quality without seeing the price? And if you were given a pill to cure a headache – do you think it would help, regardless of whether it was real medicine or not?

The Swedish neuroscientist Predrag Petrovic asks if a doctor’s expectations can affect the success of a patient’s treatment, the Indian neuro-economist Baba Shiv explains why consumers expect something to be better if they pay more, and the American musicologist Elizabeth Hellmuth Margulis on why our enjoyment of music is determined by what we’re expecting to hear.

[Tim]

. . . and the American musicologist Elizabeth Hellmuth Margulis on why our enjoyment of music is determined by what we’re expecting to hear.
Oh so true Nat, but I doubt you will get many to agree here. Proved many times over by scholars and the work of Thomas Edison about how we listen is influenced by expectation is very telling.

Saw a very interesting documentary sometime ago about brain function and consumer products, where they studied people who were fans of particular consumer electronics. They put them in an MRI scanner and measured brain responses whilst showing them random pictures of differing items. Each time they were shown a picture of their much loved brand, the readings peaked considerably. The combination of marketing and psychology is a very powerful and heady mixture, which when properly understood and implemented can produce untold wealth. Some sections of the Hi-Fi industry have got very good at this over the years, helped along wonderfully by the audio poets ;)

[Oldpinkman]

Oh so true Nat, but I doubt you will get many to agree here. Proved many times over by scholars and the work of Thomas Edison about how we listen is influenced by expectation is very telling.

Saw a very interesting documentary sometime ago about brain function and consumer products, where they studied people who were fans of particular consumer electronics. They put them in an MRI scanner and measured brain responses whilst showing them random pictures of differing items. Each time they were shown a picture of their much loved brand, the readings peaked considerably. The combination of marketing and psychology is a very powerful and heady mixture, which when properly understood and implemented can produce untold wealth. Some sections of the Hi-Fi industry have got very good at this over the years, helped along wonderfully by the audio poets ;)

Pretty obviously, and hoping to avoid the tar and feather brigade, I am one of the "few" who can say "+1" :)

[StanleyB]

Pretty obviously, and hoping to avoid the tar and feather brigade, I am one of the "few" who can say "+1" :)
I wouldn't consider that evidence in your case. Can you tell the difference between a mp3 file playback at 128kps and a vinyl at45RPM if there are no scratches on the vinyl?

[Gordon Steadman]

I 100% believe this. There are differences of course, but far more subtle than some commenters would have you believe.

[Oldpinkman]

I wouldn't consider that evidence in your case. Can you tell the difference between a mp3 file playback at 128kps and a vinyl at45RPM if there are no scratches on the vinyl?

Yup. And I know people who are astonishing at their ability to blind taste wine. I can tell a good Chablis from a bottle of Blue Nun myself, as many times as you like, fully blind. At the Fragonard perfume factory in Grasse I have seen "noses" demonstrate their abilities to distinguish over 300 scents. But as Gordon commented, the point here is not that there are no differences, but that very often other factors like price, brand loyalty, and expectations can have as big an effect on our perceptions, and real genuine differences are often smaller than claimed.

Thats why, at PT, we blind tested product. To make sure it was product differences we were hearing, and not all those other confusing factors which can seem every bit as real. Once we knew a difference was real, we sat back and enjoyed listening to music. In the same way I enjoy a glass of wine without eternally looking at the label, or picking it "blind" first. And Mrs S is very happy with "Etoile" from Fragonard, even if its not in a plain bottle :)

[Gordon Steadman]

And Mrs S is very happy with "Etoile" from Fragonard, even if its not in a plain bottle :)

My wife is very happy with 'eau de human' I'm pleased to report, plain bottles or otherwise. Helps towards the music collection:)

I've just re-read that and its not what it might suggest:lol:

[Tim]

Its a very interesting programme Nat and thanks for posting the link. I was very intrigued to hear Elizabeth Margulis talking about the 'chill' effect that music can induce and that not all people experience this?

[nat8808]

Thats why, at PT, we blind tested product. To make sure it was product differences we were hearing, and not all those other confusing factors which can seem every bit as real. Once we knew a difference was real, we sat back and enjoyed listening to music. In the same way I enjoy a glass of wine without eternally looking at the label, or picking it "blind" first. And Mrs S is very happy with "Etoile" from Fragonard, even if its not in a plain bottle :)

A good physics background should be essential for audiophiles (Arthur studied physics didn't he?) as well as history of science which even then shows blind faith in theories whilst evidence shows the opposite (and then someone from the outside comes along with a new theory, unbound by the culture of the old lot).

[nat8808]

They put them in an MRI scanner and measured brain responses whilst showing them random pictures of differing items. Each time they were shown a picture of their much loved brand, the readings peaked considerably.

I do get that.. for certain old hifi gear. Am sure my brain lights up at the idea of a particular bit of kit.. then sonically am left non-plussed and move on (probably much like that record collector dude in the vid you posted up the other day).

Brands though, I get an idea in my head of the people who like a brand and I feel they are not my kind of people, simply people who follow brands I don't identitfy with and therefore reject brands without reason. Feel uncomfortable with being in a group, gang who all react the same.. probably just a reflection of childhood, teenage years or something.