Crimean Crisis

[synsei]

Russia has just announced that all Ukrainian forces in Crimea are to surrender by 3am GMT or face a region-wide assault, WTH is Putin trying to prove? :stalks:

[anubisgrau]

aaah, not here please.

[synsei]

Gordan, as unpleasant as this is for all concerned it cannot be ignored as potentially it could affect us all one way or another. Sad times, sad times indeed... :(

[Spectral Morn]

Russia's attitude and words sound very familiar, 1938 Germany said exactly the same thing re German speakers in Czechoslovakia.

Russia wants to expand and build itself up after years of decline to become a major world power again and sadly this is exactly the sort of thing that leads to wars.

It will probably only take one small exchange of fire either way to trigger a war in the Ukraine. The west has to be strong but how does one do that without it ending in a wider conflict? Frankly I don't know.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

aaah, not here please.

Abstract Chat is for non audio topics so I was wondering when if at all this topic would come up. It is important and Dave is right whether countries get involved directly or not Russia controls major gas fields and has threatened to turn them off. The price of gas is likely to go up in the current climate and thus affect everyone.


Regards Neil

[synsei]

Indeed Neil my thoughts exactly, t'is scary shit. China's reaction should be interesting, I can't believe Putin would send his forces onto the Crimean peninsula without first consulting with Beijing. We could be witnessing the first move in a global power play here although I do hope not... :eyebrows:

[Spectral Morn]

Indeed Neil my thoughts exactly, t'is scary shit. China's reaction should be interesting, I can't believe Putin would send his forces onto the Crimean peninsula without first consulting with Beijing. We could be witnessing the first move in a global power play here although I do hope not... :eyebrows:

I predicted that Russia would go in, however I thought it would be only to reinforce and secure their bases there against possible take over by the new Ukrainian government who might not honour the treaties and there are some very undesirable elements making up that new government. I didn't think they would steal Crimea to do that.

Certainly if Crimea wants to secede to Russia after a vote and its done legally then maybe that's fair enough but considering the assets in Crimea the Ukraine might not want that to happen.

Its a mess, and once again hassle in this part of the world could draw the rest of the world into a major conflict some echo's of WW1 here as well.


Regards Neil

[StanleyB]

Russia has just announced that all Ukrainian forces in Crimea are to surrender by 3am GMT or face a region-wide assault, WTH is Putin trying to prove? :stalks:
It's basically the same tactic some in the UN imposed on Iraq with regards to handing over WMDs. And that the US is trying on Iran with regards to their nuclear program.

[User211]

Love the lyrics to this old Charlie Harper song. Warhead by the UK Subs.

Soldiers of Islem are loading their guns
They're getting ready
but the Russian tanks are mowing them down
They're getting ready
There's children in Africa with tommy guns
Getting ready
While the Islam armies are beckoning on
They're getting ready

[Chorus]
There's a burning sun
And it sets in the western world
But it rises in the east
And pretty soon
It's gonna burn your temples down

While the heads of state are having their fun
Are they ready?
We're looking at the world through the barrel of a gun
Are we ready?
And you stand there beating on your little war drum
Are you ready?
And it won't be long before your time has come
Are you ready?

[Repeat Chorus]

[Repeat Chorus]

Warhead, warhead, warhead
Warhead, warhead, warhead
Warhead, warhead, warhead
Warhead, warhead, warhead

Well I don't know what it is but i feel something coming
Stuck in the middle of the Yankees and the Russians
Better get moving guns are getting loaded
Fast to the border where the tanks are a rolling
There's a nation in fear another nation crying
One nation killing and another nation dying
Talk about guns and escalation bye bye planet let alone a nation

[User211]

Not a very sensible post given the gravity of the situation for some, I agree. The highlighted bit always made me think "good point", though:)

[Macca]

I always thought they chopped the old USSR up into independsnt countries a bit too quickly.

But there is clearly a lot going on that we don't know about or dont get told about.

[synsei]

It's basically the same tactic some in the UN imposed on Iraq with regards to handing over WMDs. And that the US is trying on Iran with regards to their nuclear program.

In actuality the three scenarios couldn't be more different, there are no western forces in Iran and that is unlikely to ever happen. Besides, Iran has seen the error of its ways since Ahmadinejad lost power. Iraq was a debacle by anyone's standards but even so there's no similarity there either between it and the current Crimean situation. I note you didn't mention the illegal Russian occupations of Afghanistan or Georgia, of which the latter actually does bare more than a passing resemblance to current events.

unfortunately when powerful leaders get bored and seek more power and influence by annexing their neighbours lands the only ones to lose out are those citizens caught up in the resulting troubles. Ideological conflict is no respecter of life whomever happens to instigate proceedings....

[Macca]

Assuming that this is ideolgical in origin is a mistake imo

[StanleyB]

In actuality the three scenarios couldn't be more different, there are no western forces in Iran and that is unlikely to ever happen. Besides, Iran has seen the error of its ways since Ahmadinejad lost power. Iraq was a debacle by anyone's standards but even so there's no similarity there either between it and the current Crimean situation. I note you didn't mention the illegal Russian occupations of Afghanistan or Georgia, of which the latter actually does bare more than a passing resemblance to current events.
I mentioned tactics, not scenario.
As for Afghanistan, the Russians left and the US and UK took over the task of entering into combat with the locals. Ask any Afghani what the difference is and they'll tell you it's just a change of language spoken by the invading forces. Many also view the presence of British forces in Northern Ireland as an occupying force that is protecting those with close links to the UK.
The US also invaded the former British Guiana and also Grenada, both of which are part of the Commonwealth. I don't recollect the UK calling for UN sanctions on the US.
Then of course we have the Chinese occupation of Tibet. No chances of sanctions against China on that one though. And let's not overlook the expansion of Israeli settlements into Palestinian territory.

So I am not rushing to judgement on the Russians. They have been there for several days now, but nobody has yet been shot dead by any of their soldiers. So they can't be accused of being blood thirsty barbarians. The same can't be said in any of the other occupying cases that I mentioned.

[synsei]

I mentioned tactics, not scenario.
As for Afghanistan, the Russians left and the US and UK took over the task of entering into combat with the locals. Ask any Afghani what the difference is and they'll tell you it's just a change of language spoken by the invading forces. Many also view the presence of British forces in Northern Ireland as an occupying force that is protecting those with close links to the UK.
The US also invaded the former British Guiana and also Grenada, both of which are part of the Commonwealth. I don't recollect the UK calling for UN sanctions on the US.
Then of course we have the Chinese occupation of Tibet. No chances of sanctions against China on that one though. And let's not overlook the expansion of Israeli settlements into Palestinian territory.

So I am not rushing to judgement on the Russians. They have been there for several days now, but nobody has yet been shot dead by any of their soldiers. So they can't be accused of being blood thirsty barbarians. The same can't be said in any of the other occupying cases that I mentioned.

In some respects I agree with you Stan, there are many, many situations around the world where intervention of some kind could be justified by various parties but where this has not materialised for any number of reasons. Specifically in the Crimean case though the Russians signed a treaty along with the West where all parties promised not to jeopardize the regions autonomy and yet they have broken that treaty citing the need for protection for the minority Russian population, despite the fact that that same minority agreed to become citizens of the Ukraine in a referendum.

[StanleyB]

Specifically in the Crimean case though the Russians signed a treaty along with the West where all parties promised not to jeopardize the regions autonomy and they have broken that treaty citing the need for protection for the minority Russian population, despite the fact that that same minority agreed to become citizens of the Ukraine in a referendum.
If I remember correctly several countries and groups signed a treaty for fresh elections etc. with the now deposed Ukrainian president, only for him to have to flee the country the next day. These signings are often not worth the paper they are typed on.

[synsei]

If I remember correctly several countries and groups signed a treaty for fresh elections etc. with the now deposed Ukrainian president, only for him to have to flee the country the next day. These signings are often not worth the paper they are typed on.

I think that may have had something to do with him ordering his men to fire upon his citizens, an action guaranteed to lose him his place on the peoples Christmas card list...

[StanleyB]

I think that may have had something to do with him ordering his men to fire upon his citizens, an action guaranteed to lose him his place on the peoples Christmas card list...
We have to be careful with what we are told by news organizations at our side of the fence. According to what was shown at the time via live video streams, the police were being shot at, and some even injured and killed, whilst they were merely wielding batons and riot shields. It is then when snipers appeared and protesters were getting shot at in return. The president then sacked the head of security. I don't think he would have done the latter if he had indeed given orders to fire at the protesters.

The Western countries are seemingly more interested in condemning Russia, whose military hasn't even fired a single shot, than handling the real serious matters; the armed militias who refuse to give up their weapons in Kiev for instance. In Crimea everything is quiet, in the rest of Ukraine it is not.

[Spectral Morn]

I mentioned tactics, not scenario.
As for Afghanistan, the Russians left and the US and UK took over the task of entering into combat with the locals. Ask any Afghani what the difference is and they'll tell you it's just a change of language spoken by the invading forces. Many also view the presence of British forces in Northern Ireland as an occupying force that is protecting those with close links to the UK.
The US also invaded the former British Guiana and also Grenada, both of which are part of the Commonwealth. I don't recollect the UK calling for UN sanctions on the US.
Then of course we have the Chinese occupation of Tibet. No chances of sanctions against China on that one though. And let's not overlook the expansion of Israeli settlements into Palestinian territory.

So I am not rushing to judgement on the Russians. They have been there for several days now, but nobody has yet been shot dead by any of their soldiers. So they can't be accused of being blood thirsty barbarians. The same can't be said in any of the other occupying cases that I mentioned.

What's oft forgotten is that the Catholic/Nationalist community asked for the Army to come into protect them. They then turned on them.

The NI Troubles is a very complicated issue that stretches back to notions of a Celtic golden-age which was alleged to exist before the Scottish were imported into manage and take over vacated originally Catholic land. The Catholic earls fled to Europe. The reality is these Earls were rich landed gentry who treated the commoner just the same way as those who replaced them, only difference the religion of the new abusers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Earls

There never was a Catholic/Celtic golden-age....its a myth..... nor was there ever a united Ireland. Ulster was always a separate entity and thorn in ancient Ireland's ass

Catholic/Nationalist ideas of occupying British forces stretch back to then (1600s) not just recent times.

Probably best not to mention NI


Regards Neil

[synsei]

We have to be careful with what we are told by news organizations at our side of the fence. According to what was shown at the time via live video streams, the police were being shot at, and some even injured and killed, whilst they were merely wielding batons and riot shields. It is then when snipers appeared and protesters were getting shot at in return. The president then sacked the head of security. I don't think he would have done the latter if he had indeed given orders to fire at the protesters.

Of course any loss of life is regrettable under such circumstances (some may say unavoidable once passions are up) plus I was not aware the president (I forget his name, is it Yanukovich?) sacked his security chief. Of course the catalyst for all this was his decision to go against his peoples wishes and sign a trade agreement with the Russian Federation rather than the EU. The fly in the ointment was always going to be Russia's warm water naval base in Sebastopol, which is/was (depending on ones point of view of course) on Ukrainian territory, once political instability broke out...

[StanleyB]

The trap that we the plebs should not fall into is to get brainwashed or nudged into accepting the political gamesmanship of the ruling elite. We in the UK are in a very good position to see how foreign money from questionable sources has basically put a stranglehold on our house prices and economy. The Russians have finally decided that they are fed up of being treated as a defeated former super power. Our politicians better find a better way to do business with them, because they are now a super power once again. As China has been demonstrating with its ambitions in the South China sea, and with its punishment of any country that even welcomes the Dalai Lama on its soil, the balance of military power has shifted. We have opened our doors to gas, goods, and investments from China and Russia. They don't need to invade us militarily. They can pull the financial plug from our economy and watch us go down the drain.

[anubisgrau]

We have to be careful with what we are told by news organizations at our side of the fence. According to what was shown at the time via live video streams, the police were being shot at, and some even injured and killed, whilst they were merely wielding batons and riot shields. It is then when snipers appeared and protesters were getting shot at in return. The president then sacked the head of security. I don't think he would have done the latter if he had indeed given orders to fire at the protesters.

The Western countries are seemingly more interested in condemning Russia, whose military hasn't even fired a single shot, than handling the real serious matters; the armed militias who refuse to give up their weapons in Kiev for instance. In Crimea everything is quiet, in the rest of Ukraine it is not.

how can i give a rep to these postings of stanleyB? this is the first case of well informed, rationale use of human mental apparatus i've seen on the UK audio fora related to the ukraine crisis. i'm dead serious.

respect!

[synsei]

The trap that we the plebs should not fall into is to get brainwashed or nudged into accepting the political gamesmanship of the ruling elite. We in the UK are in a very good position to see how foreign money from questionable sources has basically put a stranglehold on our house prices and economy. The Russians have finally decided that they are fed up of being treated as a defeated former super power. Our politicians better find a better way to do business with them, because they are now a super power once again. As China has been demonstrating with its ambitions in the South China sea, and with its punishment of any country that even welcomes the Dalai Lama on its soil, the balance of military power has shifted. We have opened our doors to gas, goods, and investments from China and Russia. They don't need to invade us militarily. They can pull the financial plug from our economy and watch us go down the drain.

Now on these points we agree, I've been stating the same for some time now on various forums including this one, and it has gained me a certain amount of flack for my efforts. Truthfully the West has had its day, most of the old dogs in the NATO yard are virtually bankrupt to the point that they are having to pick and choose their fights very carefully as many more Afghanistan's or Iraqis would put them out of business for good. China's star is in the ascendency and many of the nations of the old West are in hock to it for billions, particularly the United States. The balance of power is shifting ever faster and some of these nations have woken up to that fact, unfortunately it is now far too late to stop it, it will happen. We either adapt and play ball with the East or wither away, that is the choice which now faces us...

[matador]

Greetings my british friends!
I want to thank you for your support in these difficult days for my country. Ukrainian nation hopes for your futher support in a war against russian aggression.
I wish good health to you and your loved ones. I wish good neighbors outside your house and outside the borders of your country. I wish prosperity of Great Britain.
Regards, Andrew.

[Macca]

Thanks for your kind words Andrew, which I reciprocate, but I'm afraid I can't go to war right now I have just got out the shower and my hair is still damp... ;)

[matador]

I just wanted to say thank you for economical and political support.
It is a battle for our common democratic future ;)

[walpurgis]

I wonder. If the loss of flight MH17 near the Ukraine border is proved to have been caused by a BUK type missile supplied by Russia, could this be a war crime? Is the terrorist action in the east of Ukraine in fact a war? Probably I think and certainly it is criminal as it is against the state. Could Putin be accused of war crimes, culpable by intent, association and even conspiracy?

[Macca]

The problem with war crimes as opposed to any other crimes is that you have to fight a war and win it before you get to put anyone on trial for them. Unless it is Britain of course, the only country in the history of the world to be ridiculous enough to charge its own troops with war crimes. 'Charging a man with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.'

[struth]

if push comes to shove, we can always nuke 'em

[walpurgis]

if push comes to shove, we can always nuke 'em

I knew we could rely on you for a solution Grant. Before we do, can you pop over there and watch from a close distance and report back. We'd like to know how it went. :eyebrows:

[struth]

I knew we could rely on you for a solution Grant. Before we do, can you pop over there and watch from a close distance and report back. We'd like to know how it went. :eyebrows:

my pleasure mate....:) ....i need to get out more anyways

[The Barbarian]

if push comes to shove, we can always nuke 'em

No that won't happen from neither side