Neil Sedka - Unrecognised Genius?

[DaveK]

To maintain my credentials of membership of this forum, ie to be ever so slightly different from the population at large, I offer the following discussion point. It's about Neil Sedaka, whose name I do not think I have seen mentioned on this forum.
Last evening I attended a concert in Sheffield City Hall given by Neil. To be fair, it was like attending an OAP's convention, given the average age of the audience :lolsign: , but there was a sprinkling of younger folk, some very young. His 'props' consisted only of a grand piano, a mic (with attendant sound system), a bottle of water and a bar stool, and he entertained us for nearly 2 hours (including interval and 3 encore/curtain calls). The concert was very enjoyable and reinforced 2 opinions I have long held: -
1) the singer/song writer, with very few exceptions, produces the best version of their songs - (and didn't he write some great songs!) - nothing to do with the quality of the voice or recording, more to do with the emotion behind the words.
2) Neil's lyrics are wonderful, maybe even the works of a genius philosopher, (should evoke/provoke some response ;)). There is nothing sophisticated or complex about them, all the words he uses are simple, everyday words, but he has a way of putting them together in a way which really gets the message across, and his messages are invariably a running theme through ordinary folks' lives. I had always had this thought somewhere at the back of my mind but listening to him putting them across last night really brought it to the fore - maybe something to do with the emotion that came through.
Anyway, that's what I think - anybody disagree or have the same thoughts about other artistes?
Cheers,

[Barry]

To maintain my credentials of membership of this forum, ie to be ever so slightly different from the population at large, I offer the following discussion point. It's about Neil Sedaka, whose name I do not think I have seen mentioned on this forum.
Last evening I attended a concert in Sheffield City Hall given by Neil. To be fair, it was like attending an OAP's convention, given the average age of the audience :lolsign: , but there was a sprinkling of younger folk, some very young. His 'props' consisted only of a grand piano, a mic (with attendant sound system), a bottle of water and a bar stool, and he entertained us for nearly 2 hours (including interval and 3 encore/curtain calls). The concert was very enjoyable and reinforced 2 opinions I have long held: -
1) the singer/song writer, with very few exceptions, produces the best version of their songs - (and didn't he write some great songs!) - nothing to do with the quality of the voice or recording, more to do with the emotion behind the words.
2) Neil's lyrics are wonderful, maybe even the works of a genius philosopher, (should evoke/provoke some response ;)). There is nothing sophisticated or complex about them, all the words he uses are simple, everyday words, but he has a way of putting them together in a way which really gets the message across, and his messages are invariably a running theme through ordinary folks' lives. I had always had this thought somewhere at the back of my mind but listening to him putting them across last night really brought it to the fore - maybe something to do with the emotion that came through.
Anyway, that's what I think - anybody disagree or have the same thoughts about other artistes?
Cheers,

Hello Dave,

Just read your post and thought I would be the first to reply.

Ignoring for the moment the description 'genius' - a much overused term in my opinion, I do think that Sedaka has been overlooked by the majority. I recently heard an interview with him and he hinted the same. He was of course a member of the Brill Building group of songwriters and along with Carol King and Laura Nyro, composed a hugh number of hits. It fact I think if you look at the numbers, Sedaka probably composed the greatest number of hit songs of that triumvirate.

To reply to your two opinions:

(1)
Note sure about this. I am thinking here of the excellent covers of Joni Mitchell's songs done by Judy Collins and Buffy Sainte-Marie, Kirsty MacColl's cover of 'Days' by the Kinks, Jeff Buckley's version of 'Hallelujia' and Clapton's cover of 'I shot the Sheriff' by Bob Marley. Oh! and all the Dylan covers made by Joan Baez, though I could well be in the minority over the latter.

(2)
Interesting point and would be inclined to agree (assuming my caveat on the term 'genius' philosopher), however I don't think this skill is unique to Sedaka. Again I would cite Joni Mitchell and Kirsty MacColl as singer/songwriters who use simple straightforward words in their lyrics. But yes, Sedaka's songs are not difficult and his simple lyrics do convey great emotion. Again referring to the interview with him, he said that he composes his songs initially by singing them, the use of a piano comes later in the songs development. Maybe, this goes some way in explaining the immediacy of his songs.

Glad you enjoyed the concert.

Regards
Barry

[DaveK]

Hi Barry,
Thanks for your response.

"Ignoring for the moment the description 'genius' - a much overused term in my opinion .......

You'll note that I did put a question mark after the thread title and the word "maybe" before suggesting he was a genius philosopher, so you'llget no argument from me on the above quote - it was designed to motivate a response.
I am not aware, by and large, of the examples you give of other people improving on the writer's version, but I am a fan of both Buffy Sainte-Marie and Judy Collins, so I can believe that their cover versions are well worth listening to. I'll stick with my original belief for the time being but I am open to persuasion:).
Glad that you agree with my second point, given our agreement on the use of the word "genius". Again I am not familiar enough with the writings of Joni Mitchell and Kirsty MacColl to offer any opinion, probably because I am not a fan - nothing wrong with them as singers but they just haven't 'broken through' with me.

I do think that Sedaka has been overlooked by the majority. I recently heard an interview with him and he hinted the same.
Much as I like and admire the guy, the above comment is not necessarily much of a recommendation to me - it's for history and others to come to that conclusion :(
Cheers,

[DSJR]

He's a bit like some of the other "oldies" from the early sixties (Neil Diamond?), who had a first career very young, then went underground as far as pop lovers were concerned and then came back in early middle age and then could choose what they wanted to do (I think Perry Como had several singing cycles like this in his long career and there are many others).

His songs are sublime in the main, but it's not the kind of stuff I listen to, to be honest. He's never really gone away though and has come over here for the odd tour I understand...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Dave,
I mostly agree with what Barry has already said, & though he's certainly not my cup of tea, I think it's a little untrue to say that he's been overlooked by the majority.

Ten top 10 singles, seven top 20 singles, 6 top 30 singles & 9 in the top 50 would tell a slightly different story, I think! (these figures from a quick whizz on Google).

However, the style of music he was so successful with is very much of it's time, so that popularity hasn't been maintained by new people discovering it & I guess younger generations don't feel it has too much relevance to their lives.

I heard the interview on Radio 4's Front Row last Friday as I was driving & found it very interesting to hear about his composing method. Though I agree with Barry that there have been some excellent cover versions (& he cites some fantastic examples), I also tend to agree with you that often it's the writer who's able to convey the original emotions so much more convincingly. As is usual with different versions of the same song, you usually tend to prefer the one you know the best (& that's often the first version you heard).

Re. his popularity nowadays, we should perhaps also note that he wrote the bestselling single of the 21st Century so far (Amarillo).

[The Grand Wazoo]

Sometimes, coincidences are just unbelievable...............

I just typed this:


Though I agree with Barry that there have been some excellent cover versions (& he cites some fantastic examples), I also tend to agree with you that often it's the writer who's able to convey the original emotions so much more convincingly. As is usual with different versions of the same song, you usually tend to prefer the one you know the best (& that's often the first version you heard).

I bumbled off into the kitchen, made myself a drink & sat down with a book up snaffled in a charity shop yesterday: The Rough Guide to Bob Dylan.
Absent-mindedly flicking through the pages, I put the book down to have a swig of coffee, pick it back up, open it at a random page & start reading this:

It's an unusual compliment when a songwriter recognises someone else's arrangement of their song as so definitive that the originator then copies the cover version. But that's exactly what Dylan has done with 'All Along The Watchtower', playing the song live for the last 30 years in a close appproximation of the Jimi Hendrix version, rather than his own starker original.

"I like Jimi Hendrix's record & ever since he died I've been doing it that way", Dylan said in 1985. "Funny though, his way of doing it & my way of doing it weren't that dissimilar. I mean the meaning of the song doesn't change like when some artists do other artist's songs. When I sing it I always feel it's like a tribute to him in some kind of way". Dylan has even suggested that after the example of 'All Along The Watchtower' he began to play 'Masters of War' the way he imagined Hendrix might have done it.

[Beechwoods]

Slightly off topic, but The Byrds only started doing a live extended jam version of Eight Miles High after they heard Golden Earring do the same thing when they covered the track.

Back to Sedaka!

[Barry]

Hi Barry,
Thanks for your response.

"Ignoring for the moment the description 'genius' - a much overused term in my opinion .......

You'll note that I did put a question mark after the thread title and the word "maybe" before suggesting he was a genius philosopher, so you'll get no argument from me on the above quote - it was designed to motivate a response.
I am not aware, by and large, of the examples you give of other people improving on the writer's version, but I am a fan of both Buffy Sainte-Marie and Judy Collins, so I can believe that their cover versions are well worth listening to. I'll stick with my original belief for the time being but I am open to persuasion:).
Glad that you agree with my second point, given our agreement on the use of the word "genius". Again I am not familiar enough with the writings of Joni Mitchell and Kirsty MacColl to offer any opinion, probably because I am not a fan - nothing wrong with them as singers but they just haven't 'broken through' with me.

I do think that Sedaka has been overlooked by the majority. I recently heard an interview with him and he hinted the same.
Much as I like and admire the guy, the above comment is not necessarily much of a recommendation to me - it's for history and others to come to that conclusion :(
Cheers,

Hi Dave,

I wasn't citing the above opinion, claimed by Sedaka himself, as a recommendation, rather it was meant to reinforce my impression that Sedaka is largely unknown today as a singer songwriter amongst the twenty and thirty-somethings. This is of course is not to diminish his legacy and importance to pop music. I did say that Sedaka has probably penned more hits of all his Brill Building compatriots. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'doing the guy down'.


I have given more thought to your comment that the best version of any song is that by the songwriter themselves. After all it makes sense; the singer/songwriter knows exactly what was going through their mind emotionally when they wrote the song. Despite the examples to the contrary that I have given, I will concede that in general the singer/songwriters own version is usually the better.
The curious thing is that to my ears this does not apply to classical compositions. Now, I have only heard recordings of Stravinsky and Elgar conducting their own works, but in each case I have been disappointed. Even hearing Gershwin playing 'Rhapsody in Blue' (via a player piano) was disappointing, though I doubt that in this example, the transcription medium could adequately convey the subtleties of timing.

Barry

[DaveK]

Hi Dave,

I wasn't citing the above opinion, claimed by Sedaka himself, as a recommendation, rather it was meant to reinforce my impression that Sedaka is largely unknown today as a singer songwriter amongst the twenty and thirty-somethings. This is of course is not to diminish his legacy and importance to pop music. I did say that Sedaka has probably penned more hits of all his Brill Building compatriots. Don't get me wrong - I'm not 'doing the guy down'.

Never thought you were Barry. The point that I was trying to make that Mr. Sedaka is not the best person to try and persuade others that he has been overlooked.

I have given more thought to your comment that the best version of any song is that by the songwriter themselves. After all it makes sense; the singer/songwriter knows exactly what was going through their mind emotionally when they wrote the song. Despite the examples to the contrary that I have given, I will concede that (in general) the singer/songwriters own version is (usually) the better. I will go along with you completely with the bracketed words - my original post did say "with very few exceptions" - maybe there are more than a very few !!
The curious thing is that to my ears this does not apply to classical compositions. Now, I have only heard recordings of Stravinsky and Elgar conducting their own works, but in each case I have been disappointed. Even hearing Gershwin playing 'Rhapsody in Blue' (via a player piano) was disappointing, though I doubt that in this example, the transcription medium could adequately convey the subtleties of timing. Agree with you completely, particularly your reference to 'Rhapsody in Blue', but my experience of classical composers conducting their own 'stuff' is very limited.

Barry

Cheers,
Dave.