View Full Version : This rain and flooding
MikeMusic
11-02-2014, 11:11
Maybe oop North you have this amount of rain normally.
We don't in the South and around the Thames is becoming a major pain for me and I'm only having to divert my journey (twice now) to get to work. There are far more serious concerns for some
BBC is talking about the Jet stream causing it
With all I've learned, mostly in New Scientist about Climate Change and similar I wonder if we reached a tipping point and this is 'a change' with perhaps more 'changes' to come.
Happy thought but anyone got some data or opinions from those that know or can wave a stick in the right direction ?
Audioman
11-02-2014, 11:23
Unfortunately a lot of the trouble is down to gross incompetence. It all dates back to when they changed the National Rivers Authority into a general Environmental Agency. A conflict between preserving the 'natural' environment and ensuring free flow of rivers and providing flood defence. Eric Pickles was right in his comments but has been told to shut up. Having worked for the NRA 20 years ago I know how head in the sand the so called experts can be. Put a failed ex labour minister in charge who knows F all about the technical aspects and you are asking for trouble. The Somerset levels are man made and to anyone with an ounce of sense need maintaining to stay dry. Laughably they have now called in the Dutch to save the situation (a month too late).
Unfortunately a lot of the trouble is down to gross incompetence. It all dates back to when they changed the National Rivers Authority into a general Environmental Agency. A conflict between preserving the 'natural' environment and ensuring free flow of rivers and providing flood defence. Eric Pickles was right in his comments but has been told to shut up. Having worked for the NRA 20 years ago I know how head in the sand the so called experts can be. Put a failed ex labour minister in charge who knows F all about the technical aspects and you are asking for trouble. The Somerset levels are man made and to anyone with an ounce of sense need maintaining to stay dry. Laughably they have now called in the Dutch to save the situation (a month too late).
You are trying here to politicise an issue which bears no relation to the original post. I also work for one of the public bodies responsible for managing the consequences. Whithout getting into a discussion about public money, resources and spending priorities you must recognise they don't manage the weather, the exceptional nature of which I think Mike was getting at.
Wrt to these, I struggle to see how folk cant make the connection between wetter weather and climate change (whether man made or otherwise) as to me it should be quite apparent to anybody with even a GCSE science education.
MikeMusic
11-02-2014, 12:06
Unfortunately a lot of the trouble is down to gross incompetence. It all dates back to when they changed the National Rivers Authority into a general Environmental Agency. A conflict between preserving the 'natural' environment and ensuring free flow of rivers and providing flood defence. Eric Pickles was right in his comments but has been told to shut up. Having worked for the NRA 20 years ago I know how head in the sand the so called experts can be. Put a failed ex labour minister in charge who knows F all about the technical aspects and you are asking for trouble. The Somerset levels are man made and to anyone with an ounce of sense need maintaining to stay dry. Laughably they have now called in the Dutch to save the situation (a month too late).
I'm thinking more about the constant rain causing the problems we have on the Thames which is very wide but overcome
by sheer volume. Don't think I've ever heard of dredgers up this way
walpurgis
11-02-2014, 12:14
Periods of seemingly extreme or unusual weather, are actually cyclic events and have occurred with varying regularity for time immemorial. That suggests to me that, if you live near water or on a flood plain, it is logical that you should expect flooding problems. It is just the degree that is unusual at the moment. It's possible the current enduring wet weather is a 'one off' and may never occur again in several lifetimes, or just as easily could happen again next year. I can see how maintenance of rivers and ditches could help, but can the cost be justified if there's no way of knowing if the same situation will happen again?
By the way, sand bags are a complete waste of time, used to defend homes against encroaching, slow rising water. The water just goes around them and through them. it will also enter buildings via the drainage system unless that is sealed. Sandbags are only helpful for diverting the flow of moving water and from what I've seen on 'the box', most people haven't a clue how to use them. Building a wall of bags is little use, unless it is buttressed with further rows of bags, as water weighs a huge amount and easily sweeps weak barriers aside.
The nonsense that is 'Climate Change' is just a convenient scapegoat. The Dutch have had the same rainfall and no flooding. Why? because they have maintained their defences competently whereas our useless quango has squandered their budget on clip boards (box-ticking for the use of) and fancy 4X4s.
Do you ever wonder why none of these public-sector bodies is able to do the task it is intended for? Just in recent years we have had the child protection service failing to protect children from being killed by their parents, the Financial services watchdog not noticing that all of the banks were going broke, hospital inspectors failing to notice hundreds of patients dying due to lack of care, Border Agency failing to prevent illegal immigration and so on.
Environments Agency has a 1.2 billion budget, one of their jobs is to stop flooding - they failed, someone needs sacking.
Ali Tait
11-02-2014, 13:17
+1
Gordon Steadman
11-02-2014, 13:19
Are there any climate scientists on the forum?
Perhaps they would have an opinion with some weight behind it:eyebrows:
MikeMusic
11-02-2014, 13:30
The nonsense that is 'Climate Change' is just a convenient scapegoat. The Dutch have had the same rainfall and no flooding. Why? because they have maintained their defences competently whereas our useless quango has squandered their budget on clip boards (box-ticking for the use of) and fancy 4X4s.
Do you ever wonder why none of these public-sector bodies is able to do the task it is intended for? Just in recent years we have had the child protection service failing to protect children from being killed by their parents, the Financial services watchdog not noticing that all of the banks were going broke, hospital inspectors failing to notice hundreds of patients dying due to lack of care, Border Agency failing to prevent illegal immigration and so on.
Environments Agency has a 1.2 billion budget, one of their jobs is to stop flooding - they failed, someone needs sacking.
Maybe, but there has been a huge amount of rain
Are there any climate scientists on the forum?
Perhaps they would have an opinion with some weight behind it:eyebrows:
That's the thing. There is no such thing as a 'climate scientist' as studying something as enourmously complex as the global climate requires multiple disciplines of science, most specifically but not limited to chemistry and physics. The 'climate scientist' is an invention of the media.
Gordon Steadman
11-02-2014, 13:55
That's the thing. There is no such thing as a 'climate scientist' as studying something as enourmously complex as the global climate requires multiple disciplines of science, most specifically but not limited to chemistry and physics. The 'climate scientist' is an invention of the media.
OK, then anyone with the necessary disciplines. Everyone seems to have an opinion but how many are actually based on any science at all rather than a bandwagon they just jumped on. The deniers are too dogmatic for me to take seriously.
This discussion has popped up so many times and its always a waste of time because of entrenched views that are based on opinion only. I have said before that I have zero knowledge to apply and therefore cannot have a valid opinion but must be led by a majority verdict. That appears to be on the side of 'climate change', man made or not.
StanleyB
11-02-2014, 14:02
That's the thing. There is no such thing as a 'climate scientist' as studying something as enourmously complex as the global climate requires multiple disciplines of science, most specifically but not limited to chemistry and physics. The 'climate scientist' is an invention of the media.
Using that logic, there is no such thing as a general practitioner, as studying something as enormously complex as the human body requires multiple disciplines of medical knowledge, such as biology and chemistry. But that doesn't stop a patient going to the doctor to complain about a variety of ailments, and being prescribed a variety of medication :).
There is an oft cited figure of 97% of scientists agree that there is man made climate change. What they don't tell you is that they took the thousands of responses they received from scientists all over the world and threw out all but 78 of them, conincidentally those 78 respondents were all working (and receiving reserch grants) in the field of man made climate change. So 97% of 78 scientists with a vested interest think there is man made climate change.
You don't need to be a scientist to work out you are being lied to and if you are being lied to consistently then the odds are it is a scam, a deliberate deception.
That, plus the fact that there has been no statistically significant warming for over 17 years now makes me pretty sure of what the truth is on this subject.
Gordon Steadman
11-02-2014, 14:07
Using that logic, there is no such thing as a general practitioner, as studying something as enormously complex as the human body requires multiple disciplines of medical knowledge, such as biology and chemistry. But that doesn't stop a patient going to the doctor to complain about a variety of ailments, and being prescribed a variety of medication :).
Yup,
It seems strange to me how so many are unwilling to trust 'scientists' on this subject but seem quite willing to put their lives in the hands of 'scientists' when it comes to their health, machines etc etc.
Perhaps I'm biased, I have had two life saving operations and tend to feel there is some basis to scientific knowledge.
Maybe oop North you have this amount of rain normally.
No flooding here 'oop north' in (sunny today) Wrexham :)
Marco
While the politicians who have ignored all the warnings desperately try to blame everything on each other and the EA, and the media rub their hands glee watching the furore, the people on the ground who actually try to do the job have a slightly different point of view:
http://therivermanagementblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/scramble-for-blame-serves-no-one/
MikeMusic
11-02-2014, 14:52
While the politicians who have ignored all the warnings desperately try to blame everything on each other and the EA, and the media rub their hands glee watching the furore, the people on the ground who actually try to do the job have a slightly different point of view:
http://therivermanagementblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/scramble-for-blame-serves-no-one/
I just remembered..
It's gay marriage that caused it all - it was on the web so it must be true, UKIP ?
Sorry to bother everyone
Ali Tait
11-02-2014, 14:55
OK, then anyone with the necessary disciplines. Everyone seems to have an opinion but how many are actually based on any science at all rather than a bandwagon they just jumped on. The deniers are too dogmatic for me to take seriously.
This discussion has popped up so many times and its always a waste of time because of entrenched views that are based on opinion only. I have said before that I have zero knowledge to apply and therefore cannot have a valid opinion but must be led by a majority verdict. That appears to be on the side of 'climate change', man made or not.
I don't pretend to be any kind of expert, but I don't base my views on opinion, I attempt to find out the facts. If you have not already done so, read "State Of Fear" by Michael Creighton. It's a novel, but there is a lot of verifiable information contained therein.
StanleyB
11-02-2014, 14:55
I wonder what proportion of HS2 would now fall under the current water table. £50Billion to cut a couple of minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham, but next to nothing to save the whole country from becoming the next Atlantis. Is Cameron the next Moses? Can he part the sea and lead us to the promised "dry" land away from the EU?
Gordon Steadman
11-02-2014, 15:09
I don't pretend to be any kind of expert, but I don't base my views on opinion, I attempt to find out the facts. If you have not already done so, read "State Of Fear" by Michael Creighton. It's a novel, but there is a lot of verifiable information contained therein.
There are so many 'facts' quoted out there with opposing views that no-one who hasn't studied the subject can hope to form a valid opinion. Try this one.http://skepticalscience.com/
Spectral Morn
11-02-2014, 17:09
All rivers have flood planes and there are weather events that occur from time to time that cause rivers to overflow their banks - sometimes very badly.
Humanity for various reasons have chosen to build along rivers and on flood planes and certainly in recent times doesn't seem to have taken into account these occasions. Sadly this is one of those times that living on a flood plane in a home or having a business isn't the best idea.
Nature obviously takes care of rivers, they come and go, their direction changes but humanity has changed altered and messed with this so what it is we changed needs to be maintained and it seems that hasn't been the case so sadly things have gone wrong.
Modern building practices replacing soil with concrete and other non porous surfaces has also messed things up. In away we reap what we sow but I feel for the folks flooded having nearly been there once but buying a house right beside a river is perhaps not the most sensible thing to do.
Complex issues and I fear too late to affect changes - we can hardly move everyone off flood planes though building new houses on stilts might be useful.
Regards Neil
chris@panteg
11-02-2014, 18:09
I think I can understand the people flooded out looking to blame someone, I've seen some images of very distressed folks in total despair, you only have to put yourself in their shoes for a few moments and think how you'd be coping?
If it was myself? Not too well I suspect.
We need an engineer's solution, Bazelgette or Brunel, what would they do?
All rivers have flood planes and there are weather events that occur from time to time that cause rivers to overflow their banks - sometimes very badly.
Humanity for various reasons have chosen to build along rivers and on flood planes and certainly in recent times doesn't seem to have taken into account these occasions. Sadly this is one of those times that living on a flood plane in a home or having a business isn't the best idea.
Nature obviously takes care of rivers, they come and go, their direction changes but humanity has changed altered and messed with this so what it is we changed needs to be maintained and it seems that hasn't been the case so sadly things have gone wrong.
Modern building practices replacing soil with concrete and other non porous surfaces has also messed things up. In away we reap what we sow but I feel for the folks flooded having nearly been there once but buying a house right beside a river is perhaps not the most sensible thing to do.
Complex issues and I fear too late to affect changes - we can hardly move everyone off flood planes though building new houses on stilts might be useful.
Regards Neil
Good post Neil, especially the fourth paragraph.
walpurgis
11-02-2014, 19:21
Modern building practices replacing soil with concrete and other non porous surfaces has also messed things up. Regards Neil
Local authorities have had an eye on this for years. I know that many councils use permeable/porous paving for their own projects and I believe use of similar types of surfacing are being encouraged on private 'new builds'. Whether this is or can be a requirement applied to planning applications yet I'm not aware, but I'd imagine councils would look favourably on projects taking this route.
Local authorities have had an eye on this for years. I know that many councils use permeable/porous paving for their own projects and I believe use of similar types of surfacing are being encouraged on private 'new builds'. Whether this is or can be a requirement applied to planning applications yet I'm not aware, but I'd imagine councils would look favourably on projects taking this route.
I was thinking of the ripping up of front gardens and their replacement with a hard-standing for cars, the run off of which causes the drains to become overloaded,
walpurgis
11-02-2014, 20:33
I was thinking of the ripping up of front gardens and their replacement with a hard-standing for cars, the run off of which causes the drains to become overloaded,
Yes that is one of the areas of concern to local authorities and people requesting new 'crossovers' to access their property by vehicle across public footways are being encouraged to use permeable surfaces for proposed offroad parking areas.
Although I don't think this really an issue in the areas currently flooded, as even in the Thames Valley there is much green land, including large gardens.
StanleyB
12-02-2014, 09:12
I blame the EU. Without proper border restrictions we won't be able to stop the rain from entering Britain.
walpurgis
12-02-2014, 10:44
I blame the EU. Without proper border restrictions we won't be able to stop the rain from entering Britain.
Just try getting rain to produce I.D., passport, visa or work permit.
Spectral Morn
12-02-2014, 11:03
Local authorities have had an eye on this for years. I know that many councils use permeable/porous paving for their own projects and I believe use of similar types of surfacing are being encouraged on private 'new builds'. Whether this is or can be a requirement applied to planning applications yet I'm not aware, but I'd imagine councils would look favourably on projects taking this route.
That's good to hear but I suspect too little too late. The amount of open land that has vanished is staggering and it continues a pace. However I saw footage last night on the news of bore holes that are now so full that the water is now coming up from the water table so I doubt that extra land absorption in those areas would make any difference.... as this is causing a different type of flooding.
Terrible situation for all involved.
Regards Neil
anthonyTD
12-02-2014, 11:32
When you look at the devastation the water has caused many families its easy to understand that they want someone to blame,however, i think there are two main issues going on, yes, i am sure we are experiencing some form of climate change, whether its down to human activity, or just a circular, natural event, who knows!
Then there are the issues of maintenance, and i am sure there is an element of neglect there, as Neil has stated, rivers and streams naturally divert and change course from time to time, but if we insist they don't, then we must make sure all necessary precautions are taken to keep them flowing as efficiently as possible if we are to have a chance at coping with the [some would insist] impending future changes in climate and weather patterns to come.
Raging torrents (the Thames in Berkshire) are clearly no obstacle for Paul / Musicosis.
Had a Loricraft on order, which I thought might be floating down to Southend. Fear not, somehow Paul managed to get to Lambourn, right in the middle of all the mess, to collect it and surfed back to London, delivering at 9pm.
Fantastic machine, turning sow's ears in my collection into silk purses. A complete no-brainer, as that man said on the tele, for any vinyl addict.
Paul and Viv, my vote for audio heroes of the month.
MikeMusic
12-02-2014, 12:39
bit closer to home now
One of our ladies who lives in Chertsey has been told they will have to move out, irrelevant of the rain / storm coming soon.
There's a lot of houses around them.....
BBC reports this won't go until May- if I read that right
MikeMusic
12-02-2014, 13:08
Now hammering down here and plenty of other places in England and Wales
http://www.raintoday.co.uk/
Yup,
It seems strange to me how so many are unwilling to trust 'scientists' on this subject but seem quite willing to put their lives in the hands of 'scientists' when it comes to their health, machines etc etc.
Perhaps I'm biased, I have had two life saving operations and tend to feel there is some basis to scientific knowledge.
The difference is that medical science is proper science based on empirical evidence and experimentation. Whereas 'climate science' is based on computer models that cannot accurately reproduce historical weather patterns and have now been demonstrated to be inaccurate in their projections for the future as well.
This scam relies on the appeal to authority 'scientists say so' and the gullibility of the general population (who are paying for it all). It is all a part of a general movement to soften us up so that we will be 'satisfied with less'. Thankfully the wheels are starting to come off but it will be a long haul. Those scientists who have staked their reputations on man made climate change will have to slowly disentangle themselves from it, as will the politicians who were suckered in.
anthonyTD
12-02-2014, 13:13
Just had a huge hailstone storm here in South Wales, strong enough to set of the car alarms!
Hail washing down the roads like soap suds!
A...
Ali Tait
12-02-2014, 13:43
The difference is that medical science is proper science based on empirical evidence and experimentation. Whereas 'climate science' is based on computer models that cannot accurately reproduce historical weather patterns and have now been demonstrated to be inaccurate in their projections for the future as well.
This scam relies on the appeal to authority 'scientists say so' and the gullibility of the general population (who are paying for it all). It is all a part of a general movement to soften us up so that we will be 'satisfied with less'. Thankfully the wheels are starting to come off but it will be a long haul. Those scientists who have staked their reputations on man made climate change will have to slowly disentangle themselves from it, as will the politicians who were suckered in.
As I've said before, we cannot predict the weather tomorrow with any great degree of accuracy, yet we are expected to take seriously the models produced by climatologists of how the Earth will be a century hence.
Hmm...
MikeMusic
12-02-2014, 14:12
As I've said before, we cannot predict the weather tomorrow with any great degree of accuracy, yet we are expected to take seriously the models produced by climatologists of how the Earth will be a century hence.
Hmm...
One of the points the scientists from various fields point out themselves.
The main messages seems to be
"we cannot state anything with 100% certainty, but it looks like we're screwed, just a case of how badly and when"
One example - The Siberian tundra is melting and will release massive amounts of C02 (I think it was)
Spectral Morn
12-02-2014, 14:30
Weather was nasty here earlier but relatively calm at the minute - worse to come though. Up to 100 mile an hour winds predicted for later this evening :eek: :(
Not good .......
Regards Neil
MikeMusic
12-02-2014, 14:43
Weather was nasty here earlier but relatively calm at the minute - worse to come though. Up to 100 mile an hour winds predicted for later this evening :eek: :(
Not good .......
Regards Neil
I shall think (car) before I cycle to work........
Spectral Morn
12-02-2014, 15:02
I shall think (car) before I cycle to work........
Luckily I don't work next till Sat, so I can ride it out here assuming here survives :eek:
Regards Neil
Ali Tait
12-02-2014, 17:11
One of the points the scientists from various fields point out themselves.
The main messages seems to be
"we cannot state anything with 100% certainty, but it looks like we're screwed, just a case of how badly and when"
One example - The Siberian tundra is melting and will release massive amounts of C02 (I think it was)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/epw5.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/naepw5j)
I blame all that fart gas, emitted from the botties of cows!
Marco.
walpurgis
12-02-2014, 17:58
All this is not going well for David (Malfoy) Cameron. Many of the affected areas are pretty affluent (more like effluent at the moment) and no doubt many there will be reconsidering their opinion of our Conservative government. Perhaps they've been rather too 'conservative' with the upkeep of our waterways etc. I can see the present mess having quite an influence on the next general election.
....that is unless (like me), you don't already consider ALL politicians as useless, egotistical, self-serving twats, and so don't bother voting for any of the f*ckers!! ;)
Marco.
Ninanina
12-02-2014, 18:48
The nonsense that is 'Climate Change' is just a convenient scapegoat. The Dutch have had the same rainfall and no flooding. Why? because they have maintained their defences competently whereas our useless quango has squandered their budget on clip boards (box-ticking for the use of) and fancy 4X4s.
Do you ever wonder why none of these public-sector bodies is able to do the task it is intended for? Just in recent years we have had the child protection service failing to protect children from being killed by their parents, the Financial services watchdog not noticing that all of the banks were going broke, hospital inspectors failing to notice hundreds of patients dying due to lack of care, Border Agency failing to prevent illegal immigration and so on.
Environments Agency has a 1.2 billion budget, one of their jobs is to stop flooding - they failed, someone needs sacking.
+1 Very well said.... saved me saying it !! :D
Ninanina
12-02-2014, 19:02
The Dutch managed to drain the Fens in the 17th Century so surely we can today, with all our mechanical helpers, do the same for our poor people in the Somerset Levels and others
walpurgis
12-02-2014, 19:15
....that is unless (like me), you don't already consider ALL politicians as useless, egotistical, self-serving twats, and so don't bother voting for any of the f*ckers!! ;)
Marco.
Nice one! My sentiments exactly. String 'em all up I say!! :eek:
Wonder if £5000 will be found for people up North [Morpeth,Hull ,York,which floods every year,& a lot more] who were flooded previously,or are they not a priority as they are mostly non conservative voters[the wrong type of floods &the wrong type of voter perhaps] I will watch with interest.
Spectral Morn
12-02-2014, 19:45
Wonder if £5000 will be found for people up North [Morpeth,Hull ,York,which floods every year,& a lot more] who were flooded previously,or are they not a priority as they are mostly non conservative voters[the wrong type of floods &the wrong type of voter perhaps] I will watch with interest.
I think a certain politician has just created a massive rod for his back - as I think his idea of what he said and everyone else's is different. Time will tell.
Regards Neil
I think a certain politician has just created a massive rod for his back - as I think his idea of what he said and everyone else's is different. Time will tell.
Regards Neil
Maybe another case of: "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said ,but i am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant" All the best.... Mick
If people build in flood plains etc this is going to happen more.....Low pressure has been predominant this season and thus it has allowed all the atlantic storms free rain...(pun intended)
As has been stated, this country does not protect its citizens from these situations like other countries......if you keep the natural areas for floods to take the excess water then we will be fine, if not, buy a boat.
Rothchild
13-02-2014, 09:16
If people build in flood plains etc this is going to happen more....
Agreed, and hearing politicians talk about how terrible it all is is like hearing them bemoan their mates in business making use of legal tax breaks to avoid paying any. Surely we elect these people (whatever colour rosette they're wearing) to run this stuff not wring their hands and sympathise with how badly it's being run!?
Still, apparently Dave is going to 'bail out' the flooded areas with the money he saved by giving up on his election promise to become the 'greenest government ever'....
we will be the greenest once the sun comes out, look how well watered we are
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 10:46
More to come tomorrow by the look of it. The weather may settle back towards normality in a week or two, then we'll be looking forward to the summer hose bans.
Never has a country been run so badly, so long, by so few.
Ali Tait
13-02-2014, 11:00
I heard on the radio this storm is only the first of three, so two still to go..
Never has a country been run so badly, so long, by so few.
You've obviously never been to Mexico then...;)
The floods are God's way of warning us off the idea of female bishops.
Ali Tait
13-02-2014, 13:33
:lol:
Rothchild
13-02-2014, 14:55
The floods are God's way of warning us off the idea of female bishops.
It's amazing how far some climate change deniers will go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25793358
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 15:47
Of course, once the weather settles back down to something resembling normal, we'll have the next big thing to hit the news. 'The Insurance Scandal'!
Just wait and see there'll be no end of post flood/storm claimants who get short shrift from their insurers and it'll drag on for years. Remember the Buncefield explosion that caused havoc in Hemel Hempstead a few years ago? Well there are people still waiting for their insurers to cough up!
Wrt to these, I struggle to see how folk cant make the connection between wetter weather and climate change (whether man made or otherwise) as to me it should be quite apparent to anybody with even a GCSE science education.
That is called a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Whilst it MAY be linked (and I'm no human caused climate change denier) even experts in the relevent scientific fields are uncertain that the connection between THIS weather and climate change are connected.
To make the leap of faith that it is DEFINATELY linked and telling people it is so obvious is anti-science and completely belief based, almost tribal and even a little political on personal politics level.
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 19:58
Regional climate variation, no matter how unusual, is not the same thing as "climate change". Also, it may have no connection with 'global warming', which itself is still not a proven principle.
The difference is that medical science is proper science based on empirical evidence and experimentation. Whereas 'climate science' is based on computer models that cannot accurately reproduce historical weather patterns and have now been demonstrated to be inaccurate in their projections for the future as well.
The science of complex and chaotic systems is difficult but it does not mean that therefore any scientific opinion or research is therefore a scam because it can't be empirically studied. That's a just a daft stance to take ! Therefore anything which isn't black and white can be spun around to be a scam simply through some deep seated distrust of authority.
Particle physics is pretty much all in the mind, just a crazy bunch of fantastical theories which can never be proven and so a bunch of scam artists have taken BILLIONS in public money to build crazy machines just to imploy their mates in construction industries and engineering fields, give themselves well paid jobs and "respectable" scientific posts but it's all a FRAUD!!!! This Higgs Boson stuff is complete bullshit, yet another rouse for another round of funding from the public purse.
I can't believe we keep allowing "scientists" to keep taking us all for a ride.
I blame all that fart gas, emitted from the botties of cows!
Marco.
Methane is the most narcissistic of all the gases and is four times worse a greenhouse gas (but breaks down quicker than many). So kind of true what you say, even if in jest, seeing as the land that has cows etc on it wouldn't naturally be making any at all, in fact would be busily absorbing CO2 into plant matter and other forms of carbon over time.
Aircon fluids though are the big terrible greenhouse gases.. thousands of times worse than CO2 and is a criminal offense to release it in to the atmosphere in some countries, just not in countries like China where it might be mass produced and then think of the leaks from aircon systems around the world.. Aircon is baaad.
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 20:18
If I'm not mistaken Freon is no longer used in aircon in most countries.
I think there's a whole load of problems making this current a whole lot worse for people than it should be, some of the people to blame are those effected themselves unfortunately even if based on ignorance.
As a minor anecdote, I was chatting to a guy yesterday who has grown up working on farms in some of the flooded areas. When he was say 15 (as a 40 year old today) he was regularly seeing flooded fields in certain parts of the farm and surrounding area, large areas of land.
In the following 20-odd years he's seen the farms sold off, the land sold off and then of course large residential areas popping up from the old farm land, large plots sold to rich people to build their own properties etc etc. He's seen them laying dranage systems in some vein hope that it will see off any flooding that was natural in the area in the first place... Now of course it's all underwater and the properties effectively destroyed.
So, who's to blame when its the result of 30 years of short-term thinking and quick buck making? There are so many people who played a small part along the way that effectively no-one can be held responsible and the residents should chalk it down to experience and their own ignorance that lead them to buy the properties in the first place.
Need to get on with the coping part and rebuilding their lives part.
If I'm not mistaken Freon is no longer used in aircon in most countries.
Freon is old old hat... The replacements for Freon were various Flourinated gasses because they don't damage the ozone layer, however they are now in the process of being banned themselves because of being one of the worse greenhouse gasses we make. :doh:
Fluorinated gases (F-gases) are a family of man-made gases used in a range of industrial applications. Because they do not damage the atmospheric ozone layer, they are often used as substitutes for ozone-depleting substances. However, F-gases are powerful greenhouse gases, with a global warming effect up to 23,000 times greater than carbon dioxide (CO2), and their emissions are rising strongly.
http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/f-gas/index_en.htm
F-gas facts
The three groups of F-gases are hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), perfluorocarbons (PFCs) and sulphur hexafluoride (SF6)
F-gases account for 2% of the EU's overall greenhouse gas emissions, but F-gas emissions have risen by 60% since 1990 – in contrast to all other greenhouse gases, which have been reduced
F-gases can remain in the atmosphere for thousands of years
Equipment and appliances containing F-gases can have long lifetimes of up to 50 years
EU banning has only been getting under way in the last few months:
Two decades after international action led to the phasing out of ozone-depleting chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), the European Commission last year proposed a law to eliminate the climate-harming "F-gases" that replaced CFCs.
Under Monday's deal, the new rules introduce a cap to achieve a 79% reduction by 2030 on the group of gases known as hydroflurocarbons (HFCs).
The rules also include bans on the use of HFCs in new equipment in some business sectors by 2022 and prevent their use for servicing and maintenance of old equipment.
http://www.euractiv.com/climate-environment/eu-reaches-deal-cap-super-warmin-news-532386
Now, if I didn't know about F-gasses until probably about a year ago and you don't know about them either, and they were touted as great environmentally friendly alternatives in the 90s, still in full industrial use and manufacture today...
Just goes to show how in the dark most of the population of the world is about the human effect on global warming etc.
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 20:53
Blimey! It's like being back at school. :eyebrows:
I know all there is to know about climate change.
It was pissing it down with rain this morning . . . . . the sun popped out for an hour at lunchtime . . . . . then it pissed down again this afternoon. Freezing me noodles off tonight cos the temperature has dropped dramatically. Brrrrrrrrrrrr.
How much climate change do you want in one day? Meh.
walpurgis
13-02-2014, 21:35
Passably mild here today, with blue sky and bright sunshine all day. Certainly makes a change. Back to wind & rain tomorrow! :(
Some BIGTIME snow is on its way, too - be prepared, folks!!
Marco.
That is called a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Whilst it MAY be linked (and I'm no human caused climate change denier) even experts in the relevent scientific fields are uncertain that the connection between THIS weather and climate change are connected.
To make the leap of faith that it is DEFINATELY linked and telling people it is so obvious is anti-science and completely belief based, almost tribal and even a little political on personal politics level.
how obvious do you want it mate, what happens when you heat up water? what happens when you cool it down again? it really is that simple. no politics involved.
one thing we can agree on is that the experts can be far from impartial on either side of the debate.
southall-1998
13-02-2014, 23:27
Passably mild here today, with blue sky and bright sunshine all day. Certainly makes a change. Back to wind & rain tomorrow! :(
Today was OK. Hope Saturday will be OK once more!?
S.
chris@panteg
14-02-2014, 01:25
Never has a country been run so badly, so long, by so few.
And if the brittish empire lasts a thousand years, they will say... This is their erm err not there finest hour...
how obvious do you want it mate, what happens when you heat up water? what happens when you cool it down again? it really is that simple. no politics involved.
one thing we can agree on is that the experts can be far from impartial on either side of the debate.
What does happen? (I'm not sure what you're specifically getting at with that..).
And that has nothing to do either with humans nor whether the earth really is heating up.
It is certainly NOT obvious that things are connected unless
a) you've been told it is and then confuse correlation with causation or
b) you're a scientist who's been studying relevent things for years, know the processes inside and out and make an estimate on the likelyhood.
99.9999% of people fall into the former camp, on BOTH sides of the debate (if one considers it to be a debate) therefore saying it is obvious is either fooling yourself or being disingenuous for the sake of argument or simply overconfident in your own opinion.. Everything is obvious until it is proven false; obvious that lightening is god being angry, obvious that it's "turtles all the way down", obvious that the atom is the smallest possible thing etc etc
Basically Gordon said it already in post #11. I trust the science and scientists but to me, as a lay person only able to experience my own back yard, it is far from obvious or even real - certainly no flooding in central London nor any climate difference that I've noticed particularly.
Oldpinkman
14-02-2014, 06:45
Some BIGTIME snow is on its way, too - be prepared, folks!!
Marco.
This is the 2nd such prophecy on aos since Christmas that I have noticed ( Geoff was first). I can't see a major new world religion taking off as a result of their successes, although in the long enough term they will be fulfilled. Wet warm and windy here for the next 5 days. That'll make a nice change :(
StanleyB
14-02-2014, 07:18
This is the 2nd such prophecy on aos since Christmas that I have noticed ( Geoff was first).
If you go back a bit more you might notice the prophecy I made about Manchester United ;) and Moyes.
Basically Gordon said it already in post #11. I trust the science and scientists but to me, as a lay person only able to experience my own back yard, it is far from obvious or even real - certainly no flooding in central London nor any climate difference that I've noticed particularly.
Sounds to me a bit like the y2k problem. Ask anyone not involved they will tell you that it was all hype about nothing. Ask anyone who was in the industry putting in long hours fixing stuff in advance and they will give you a different reason why nothing bad happened (ok some of it was hype, but a lot of little bits of code that would have failed was fixed in advance).
Oldpinkman
14-02-2014, 08:40
If you go back a bit more you might notice the prophecy I made about Manchester United ;) and Moyes.
Ah - and mine about Liverpool and competition fatigue for Arsenal and Chelsea. Even Brendan Rodgers has started to use the "P" word! ;)
Apparently, a hurricane in the Pacific some time ago disturbed the Pacific jetstream, which in turn messed up the air currents in the Arctic, which in turn has displaced the Atlantic jetstream southwards and so we are getting rain here which should be snow much further north at this time of year. The argument then is has "climate change" caused that initial hurricane out in the Pacific, which in turn has bolloxed up the climate here?
StanleyB
14-02-2014, 09:04
Sounds to me a bit like the y2k problem. Ask anyone not involved they will tell you that it was all hype about nothing. Ask anyone who was in the industry putting in long hours fixing stuff in advance and they will give you a different reason why nothing bad happened (ok some of it was hype, but a lot of little bits of code that would have failed was fixed in advance).
I still get angry when people make claims about the hype surrounding the Y2K problem. As you wrote once the problem was identified, coders and chip manufacturers started to update their systems in order to avoid a potential disaster. But somehow a lot of people saw the failure of anything to go wrong as evidence of a hype.
StanleyB
14-02-2014, 09:18
Apparently, a hurricane in the Pacific some time ago disturbed the Pacific jetstream, which in turn messed up the air currents in the Arctic, which in turn has displaced the Atlantic jetstream southwards and so we are getting rain here which should be snow much further north at this time of year. The argument then is has "climate change" caused that initial hurricane out in the Pacific, which in turn has bolloxed up the climate here?
Whatever the argument is, and whatever times scale deniers wish to use as evidence against climate change, the destructive evidence in the wake of the floods and storms can't be ignored. Who now wants to buy a house in an area that has been flooded at least once in the last few years? Given the likely cost of the insurance bill, spending the same amount of money to reduce the likelihood of future flood water damaging property would make far better sense now. You can dredge the river and build the highest sea wall in the world. But you can't stop snow and rain water from falling from the sky and potentially causing a flood. So getting rid of the water quickly should be a priority action plan. The bacteria in that mess can cause major health hazards. The Dutch figured that out decades ago. In Rotterdam some houses are built on a floating platform. They also have dual use underground car parks that can be turned into emergency flood water reservoirs.
There has always been climate change on this planet since the year dot and this is evidenced by the fact that we dig down to find coal and oil underground. I won't go into how it got there, but there it is as a result of decaying vegetation - trillions of tons of it. The north sea wasn't there millions of years ago either and we are told it was packed with dense lush tropical vegetation. The last time I dipped my goolies into the north sea I found that hard to believe. Dinosaurs too needed warmth to survive and their fossils all around the country are testimony too that the climate has indeed changed considerably. Man wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye back then, so let's rule out his involvement in that particular climate change process.
We hear stories in the news that we are experiencing huge disruptions in the weather patterns in the "last X hundred years SINCE RECORDS BEGAN". Really? A few hundred years isn't even a tiny pin prick in time, so how arrogant of mankind to believe that miniscule time-frame is representative of his entire knowledge of climate and it's infinite variables. On that basis alone I don't believe there is anyone qualified to say that there is or there isn't man-made climate change, because it can and does occur naturally and nobody yet has accurately filtered out what is and what isn't naturally occurring climate change. When they can achieve that then there will be objective data to work from WITH REGARD TO CLIMATE CHANGES.
Arguably too is the amount of pollutants being pumped into the atmosphere on a daily basis which is known to damage the atmosphere. What mankind tends to forget is that the earth is very much like a goldfish bowl where if it is polluted, there is nowhere for the pollutants to escape because it is a totally sealed environment. There are no safe corners on the globe to shift the crap out of harm's way, pollute one sea and they are ALL polluted, have a country like China pumping millions of tons of toxic fumes into the air and it pollutes the entire globe, never to escape.
My own view then is that there is no such thing as a "climate change denier" because all the crap going into the atmosphere is collectively soiling what we eat and choking all of us and every other living organism on this planet, so whether or not is screwing up the climate is of relatively less importance to me, because I would rather put up with a natural climate change scenario than know I am going to be poisoned out of existence in one way or another.
Spectral Morn
14-02-2014, 11:32
North Sea wasn't there not long ago geologically speaking and finally removed all land traces about 5500 BC.
More here about it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html
The world has swung through many changes all with natural causes in the past. Does humanity have the ability now to impact the environment yes but to what extent is the question and have we actually done so. Regardless good stewardship of the environment/what we have is vital and sadly not in much evidence.
Regards Neil
Might I suggest that those referring to people who are rightfully and understandably sceptical about the totally unsubstantiated claims made about 'man made' climate change as 'deniers' desist from the practice? It does rather make you come across as swivel-eyed fanatics which I am sure is not the impression you want to give.
Might I suggest that those referring to people who are rightfully and understandably sceptical about the totally unsubstantiated claims made about 'man made' climate change as 'deniers' desist from the practice? It does rather make you come across as swivel-eyed fanatics which I am sure is not the impression you want to give.
May I add that linking to the Daily Mail should be an offence under the Geneva Convention?
Gordon Steadman
14-02-2014, 13:27
Might I suggest that those referring to people who are rightfully and understandably sceptical about the totally unsubstantiated claims made about 'man made' climate change as 'deniers' desist from the practice? It does rather make you come across as swivel-eyed fanatics which I am sure is not the impression you want to give.
Perhaps if the swivel eyed fanatics who keep claiming its a total scam and a fraud, without any proof, would moderate their tone as well, a meeting somewhere in the middle might be possible.:eyebrows:
There has always been climate change on this planet since the year dot and this is evidenced by the fact that we dig down to find coal and oil underground. I won't go into how it got there, but there it is as a result of decaying vegetation - trillions of tons of it. The north sea wasn't there millions of years ago either and we are told it was packed with dense lush tropical vegetation. The last time I dipped my goolies into the north sea I found that hard to believe. Dinosaurs too needed warmth to survive and their fossils all around the country are testimony too that the climate has indeed changed considerably. Man wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye back then, so let's rule out his involvement in that particular climate change process.
We hear stories in the news that we are experiencing huge disruptions in the weather patterns in the "last X hundred years SINCE RECORDS BEGAN". Really? A few hundred years isn't even a tiny pin prick in time, so how arrogant of mankind to believe that miniscule time-frame is representative of his entire knowledge of climate and it's infinite variables. On that basis alone I don't believe there is anyone qualified to say that there is or there isn't man-made climate change, because it can and does occur naturally and nobody yet has accurately filtered out what is and what isn't naturally occurring climate change. When they can achieve that then there will be objective data to work from WITH REGARD TO CLIMATE CHANGES.
Arguably too is the amount of pollutants being pumped into the atmosphere on a daily basis which is known to damage the atmosphere. What mankind tends to forget is that the earth is very much like a goldfish bowl where if it is polluted, there is nowhere for the pollutants to escape because it is a totally sealed environment. There are no safe corners on the globe to shift the crap out of harm's way, pollute one sea and they are ALL polluted, have a country like China pumping millions of tons of toxic fumes into the air and it pollutes the entire globe, never to escape.
My own view then is that there is no such thing as a "climate change denier" because all the crap going into the atmosphere is collectively soiling what we eat and choking all of us and every other living organism on this planet, so whether or not is screwing up the climate is of relatively less importance to me, because I would rather put up with a natural climate change scenario than know I am going to be poisoned out of existence in one way or another.
perfect summation
Perhaps if the swivel eyed fanatics who keep claiming its a total scam and a fraud, without any proof, would moderate their tone as well, a meeting somewhere in the middle might be possible.:eyebrows:
Ah touche! :)
Except there is empirical evidence that it is a scam and a fraud. The use of the word 'denier' is evidence, for instance.
Seriously though I would recommend anyone not up to speed to read up on the subject and find out what the so-called scientists have been up to. Of particular interest are the e-mails leaked from the UEA Climate Research Unit. You will be horrified.
Gordon Steadman
14-02-2014, 14:16
Ah touche! :)
Except there is empirical evidence that it is a scam and a fraud. The use of the word 'denier' is evidence, for instance.
Seriously though I would recommend anyone not up to speed to read up on the subject and find out what the so-called scientists have been up to. Of particular interest are the e-mails leaked from the UEA Climate Research Unit. You will be horrified.
The scientists say all the empirical evidence points the other way:lol:. They have answers to the email er....'scandal' too - see the link to skeptical science. I think the problem remains that the 'skeptics' or 'deniers' whatever you want to call them are totally convinced and state stuff as facts. The scientists tend to say that 'all the evidence points towards'. This is a very different approach and I know which I prefer.
Sounds to me a bit like the y2k problem. Ask anyone not involved they will tell you that it was all hype about nothing. Ask anyone who was in the industry putting in long hours fixing stuff in advance and they will give you a different reason why nothing bad happened (ok some of it was hype, but a lot of little bits of code that would have failed was fixed in advance).
True, people only "know" what they are told and believe.
The reasons behind why some believe one version and others the opposite are deep, complicated and probably reflect all sorts of things in their personal history, family politics, school experiences etc etc
Ah touche! :)
Except there is empirical evidence that it is a scam and a fraud. The use of the word 'denier' is evidence, for instance.
Seriously though I would recommend anyone not up to speed to read up on the subject and find out what the so-called scientists have been up to. Of particular interest are the e-mails leaked from the UEA Climate Research Unit. You will be horrified.
There is much much evidence too that many influential (i.e. publically voiced) climate change refuters are funded by the oil industry etc. Then they set up "think tanks" which look at first glance to be independent but follow the money and you see they are owned by a subsiduary of a company owned by someone in the oil industry. The Koch brothers for instance have been funding climate change refuter organisations for over a decade and many many of them, some of them then citing each other as proof of the other's work yet are funded by the same people - one absolutely massive fraudulent propoganda machine.
I just ask myself who would I trust;
Billionaires from the oil industry - an industry built on country take-over, leader assasinations, corruption, funding coups, driving out indiginous populations and litterally funding their murder when they don't move and then pollute their lands, an industry which funds mallitias known to kill and rape local populations, an industry bribing leaders to cover up destruction and poisoning of the evironment etc etc
or
Scientists on about £60k/anum when in an important post - who want a few thousand in funding for a research project that they feel is important to human kind's progress but politically isn't seen as economically beneficial so might need to beef up the reasons for the research, who are so concerned about what might happen to the Earth and the human race as we know it that they are willing to beef up the facts in order to encourage people to take action NOW rather than when its too late?
I would be trusting the latter personally! Each to their own I guess....
P.S. What do you think of the phrase "Climate Change Refuter" ? Sounds a little more neutral - I agree about the "denier" use, is propogandistic (?) in itself.
Gordon Steadman
14-02-2014, 15:53
Nice post Nat.
I've just been listening to some Flanders and Swann. As coincidence would have it, the last two tracks were '20 tons of TNT' and 'the Ostrich song'.
"I'll just bury me head in the sand..........."
Weather still bad here, storms regularly rolling in, some damage on the shoreline for us, few trees down thankfully not too bad. Feel terrible for the people in England.
MikeMusic
14-02-2014, 16:46
Weather forecasting
As we were promised BIG MONSTER STORMS this afternoon I took the car, not the bike to work today (boring)
'Course it were barely spitting and a little bit of wind
Who can you trust ?
Still forecasting rain on BBC weather and Accuweather - I see none
Raintoday shows it gone from where I am
Anyone pay for the full version of Raintoday ?
Gordon Steadman
14-02-2014, 17:06
Weather forecasting
As we were promised BIG MONSTER STORMS this afternoon I took the car, not the bike to work today (boring)
'Course it were barely spitting and a little bit of wind
Who can you trust ?
Still forecasting rain on BBC weather and Accuweather - I see none
Raintoday shows it gone from where I am
Anyone pay for the full version of Raintoday ?
We have been relying on the French Meteo forecasts for the last week as we are having the main roof done. 100% accurate. The roofers have turned up when meteo said no rain and stayed away when rain was forecast - it pissed down on every occasion. So, they are right at somewhat over the expected 50%!! Maybe the Met Office needs a new model.
walpurgis
14-02-2014, 17:15
Might I suggest that those referring to people who are rightfully and understandably sceptical about the totally unsubstantiated claims made about 'man made' climate change as 'deniers' desist from the practice? It does rather make you come across as swivel-eyed fanatics which I am sure is not the impression you want to give.
I thought "deniers" were what they use for grading stockings and tights. Surely the word would be 'denyers', even if it doesn't look right?
Weather forecasting
As we were promised BIG MONSTER STORMS this afternoon I took the car, not the bike to work today (boring)
'Course it were barely spitting and a little bit of wind
Who can you trust ?
Still forecasting rain on BBC weather and Accuweather - I see none
Raintoday shows it gone from where I am
Anyone pay for the full version of Raintoday ?
It's been raining very heavily in East London since lunchtime
Lots of traffic chaos and no Woolwich ferry
Gordon Steadman
14-02-2014, 18:09
I thought "deniers" were what they use for grading stockings and tights. Surely the word would be 'denyers', even if it doesn't look right?
Funny you should say that. I was trying to think of a relevant joke about stockings but I couldn't think of a connection:scratch:
This weather is ridiculous, I haven't been able to work since I got over my pneumonia after Christmas.
Swmbo has me redecorating now.....been listening to music on MP3 player today without headphones, the sound is terrible, although it is terrible with the headphones too!
I really must get something sorted soon it's driving me demented, need work first though.
Few dry days would be handy.
Wind is getting up again......oh joy! You guys in England have this to look forward to.
MikeMusic
14-02-2014, 21:24
We have been relying on the French Meteo forecasts for the last week as we are having the main roof done. 100% accurate. The roofers have turned up when meteo said no rain and stayed away when rain was forecast - it pissed down on every occasion. So, they are right at somewhat over the expected 50%!! Maybe the Met Office needs a new model.
Weather forecasting
The only job where you can be wrong so often and not get the sack
MikeMusic
14-02-2014, 21:26
It's been raining very heavily in East London since lunchtime
Lots of traffic chaos and no Woolwich ferry
Rain most of the day then it stopped for a few hours
Windy now, almost no rain
MikeMusic
14-02-2014, 21:29
This weather is ridiculous, I haven't been able to work since I got over my pneumonia after Christmas.
Swmbo has me redecorating now.....been listening to music on MP3 player today without headphones, the sound is terrible, although it is terrible with the headphones too!
I really must get something sorted soon it's driving me demented, need work first though.
Few dry days would be handy.
Take it easy after pneumonia. Make sure your'e over it -(and get something in to replace that horrid MP3)
:eek:
Thanks mike, yes the pneumonia was miserable still shaky and weak.
I know I need to get something decent to listen to, when funds allow I hope to make a start, need to earn some dosh to clear bills first.
Weather forecasting
The only job where you can be wrong so often and not get the sack
I dunno; being an MP must be at least a close second.
The wind is really winding up here now just watched the neighbours wheelie bin hurtling down the street ,and there has been some strange explosion type noises accompanied by a constant whale of emergency vehicle sirens .
Don't know if it's been mentioned before but I had a fantastic beer from the smallest beer shop on the world, it is by Hobson's brewery and it is called postmans knock I think. It is a really tasty porter well worth a go.
I also had the best ever still perry and cider from there too from brook farm cider unfortunately I think they have stopped producing.
Oops wring thread to post this to, sorry the typing panel was still up when I came into this thread, can someone delete it please.
Oldpinkman
15-02-2014, 07:06
The wind is really winding up here now just watched the neighbours wheelie bin hurtling down the street ,and there has been some strange explosion type noises accompanied by a constant whale of emergency vehicle sirens .
Yup. Another stable roof ripped off :(
The leccy went off at half past six last night and so no musical interludes for me.
I had to talk to the wife instead :eek:
MikeMusic
15-02-2014, 11:22
I dunno; being an MP must be at least a close second.
Got me
walpurgis
15-02-2014, 11:23
Yup. Another stable roof ripped off :(
My shed roof is now in tatters. It's only thin corrugated clear plastic and was whipping up in the air last night. It was due to be replaced in the summer. Looks like I'll have to do it this week now. At least my workshop is OK and the house.
MikeMusic
15-02-2014, 11:23
The leccy went off at half past six last night and so no musical interludes for me.
I had to talk to the wife instead :eek:
Now that is sad
:)
More damage here overnight, getting boring now!
More expense, need a man and 6 tonne digger to do some clearing too.
Spectral Morn
15-02-2014, 11:37
More damage here overnight, getting boring now!
More expense, need a man and 6 tonne digger to do some clearing too.
Sorry to hear that.
Regards Neil
Thanks Neil, trying to take my mind off the weather with more decorating!
Listening to music I haven't listened too since I was much younger, got the blues band playing on the devils own spotify free!
A large inflatable dinosaur has appeared in my back garden
A large inflatable dinosaur has appeared in my back garden
That's a bloody sight more interesting than the twenty tonnes of rocks, sand and gravel in my garden!
A large inflatable dinosaur has appeared in my back garden
Barney, probably. Or Dino from the Flinstones. Tether up an inflatable goat, it will have it away just like in Jurrasic Park.
He's still there
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/dino_zpsc705022b.jpg
Brilliant get him in quickly, he might be cold......
Looks more like a giant snail to me!
The leccy went off at half past six last night and so no musical interludes for me.
I had to talk to the wife instead :eek:
You need to get a class-D amp, Bushmaster all running off gel batteries connected to your laptop, perhaps with a pink triangle anniversary TT with battery supply and a battery phono stage... Preparation is key!
He's still there
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/dino_zpsc705022b.jpg
Haha.. Like the way it looks like you were too scared to get from behind that bush!
Aaahhh.... I see now, you are actually the bunny in your avatar! That explains it.. Woody, the bunny who lives here would also be all ears forward and reaching to sniff closer without physically getting any nearer.
Can't imagine what it's been like for the poor mistreated bunnies who are forced to live outside in small hutches.
You need to get a class-D amp, Bushmaster all running off gel batteries connected to your laptop, perhaps with a pink triangle anniversary TT with battery supply and a battery phono stage... Preparation is key!
Or a wind up gramophone :lol:
Trevor Baylis must have invented the wind-up audiophile system by now...
Trevor Baylis must have invented the wind-up audiophile system by now...
You would think so. It's not particularly difficult to wind-up audiophiles...
Maybe oop North you have this amount of rain normally.
We don't in the South and around the Thames is becoming a major pain for me and I'm only having to divert my journey (twice now) to get to work. There are far more serious concerns for some
BBC is talking about the Jet stream causing it
With all I've learned, mostly in New Scientist about Climate Change and similar I wonder if we reached a tipping point and this is 'a change' with perhaps more 'changes' to come.
Happy thought but anyone got some data or opinions from those that know or can wave a stick in the right direction ?
According to a story on the BBC today scientists suspect the recent bad weather here and in the US is down to changes to the Jetstream which are being wrought by the rapid warming of the north polar region. This has resulted in the loss of vast areas of sea ice within the Arctic Circle which acts as a cap on the Arctic Ocean. Without its polar ice cap the ocean is able to dump its heat straight into the atmosphere thus warming it. The speed and fluctuations of the Jetstream are linked to the temperature differential between equatorial and polar regions. When the temperature differential is great the Jetstream is at it's most powerful which allows it to punch through areas of high pressure in the atmosphere. The fluctuations, or 'loops', which punctuate the course of the Jetstream also move faster and thus weather systems tend to move at a fair old clip (in relative terms) over the surface of the Earth. When there is less of a difference in temperature between the two regions the Jetstream becomes more lethargic and less powerful. It is unable to punch through high pressure systems so being a fluid it flows around them instead. This results in much larger and more frequent loops in it's course plus these 'loops' travel more slowly over the surface of the planet, hence weather systems stick around for longer which is exactly what we are seeing now over the UK and US. Using a metaphor, it is akin to a river system. When a river is in its youthful stage it is fast flowing, powerful and able to dramatically sculpt a landscape over time, creating canyons for example. In it's senile stage before it hits its estuary that body of flowing water is still powerful but moves through the landscape with less speed therefore it meanders too and fro across its flood plain creating massive 'loops' which very gradually move downstream over time...
MikeMusic
16-02-2014, 15:07
According to a story on the BBC today scientists suspect the recent bad weather here and in the US is down to changes to the Jetstream which are being wrought by the rapid warming of the north polar region. This has resulted in the loss of vast areas of sea ice within the Arctic Circle which acts as a cap on the Arctic Ocean. Without its polar ice cap the ocean is able to dump its heat straight into the atmosphere thus warming it. The speed and fluctuations of the Jetstream are linked to the temperature differential between equatorial and polar regions. When the temperature differential is great the Jetstream is at it's most powerful which allows it to punch through areas of high pressure in the atmosphere. The fluctuations, or 'loops', which punctuate the course of the Jetstream also move faster and thus weather systems tend to move at a fair old clip (in relative terms) over the surface of the Earth. When there is less of a difference in temperature between the two regions the Jetstream becomes more lethargic and less powerful. It is unable to punch through high pressure systems so being a fluid it flows around them instead. This results in much larger and more frequent loops in it's course plus these 'loops' travel more slowly over the surface of the planet, hence weather systems stick around for longer which is exactly what we are seeing now over the UK and US. Using a metaphor, it is akin to a river system. When a river is in its youthful stage it is fast flowing, powerful and able to dramatically sculpt a landscape over time, creating canyons for example. In it's senile stage before it hits its estuary that body of flowing water is still powerful but moves through the landscape with less speed therefore it meanders too and fro across its flood plain creating massive 'loops' which very gradually move downstream over time...
Jetstream seems to be it
There's a few people locally and further up the Thames would like a fix.
I don't know if it is feasible and I wonder if this is a rare/unique event of we're in for a load more.
Raining here again, set to get bad tonight. Was hoping to get to work tomorrow but the ground is so waterlogged, not the weather for gardening! Have fruit trees to prune before spring :(
Apparently the European and American systems are beginning to combine so more dramatic weather to follow!
Apparently the European and American systems are beginning to combine so more dramatic weather to follow!
Hmm, I think I'll watch The Day After Tomorrow later just to cheer me up... :lol:
MikeMusic
16-02-2014, 15:33
Raining here again, set to get bad tonight. Was hoping to get to work tomorrow but the ground is so waterlogged, not the weather for gardening! Have fruit trees to prune before spring :(
I can see what you are having ! courtesy of
http://www.raintoday.co.uk/
Oh well I am delighted mike lol!
Apparently the European and American systems are beginning to combine so more dramatic weather to follow!
But at least if using current exchange rates we'll only be getting 0.6 times their weather......:door:
And to cap it all.......my favourite television has just blown up ;(
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Philips-matchline-classic-28-Television-28CL6770-25Z-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/zuEAAMXQAI9SJG1m/$(KGrHqV,!lEFI!hNeILFBSJG1mTPiw~~60_35.JPG
One of these, and I am gutted.
MikeMusic
16-02-2014, 21:21
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Philips-matchline-classic-28-Television-28CL6770-25Z-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/zuEAAMXQAI9SJG1m/$(KGrHqV,!lEFI!hNeILFBSJG1mTPiw~~60_35.JPG
One of these, and I am gutted.
Onto Ebay quick as you like for another or a Panasonic 50" plasma. Collect only, nice and cheeeep
:)
Onto Ebay quick as you like for another or a Panasonic 50" plasma. Collect only, nice and cheeeep
:)
It isn't so much that I want to replace it mike, we have owned it from new (even have the receipt) I love that one, stupid and sentimental I know but it's the best telly we've ever had and a cracking sound too. We do have a flat screen as well but I just thought the old one would go on forever.
MikeMusic
17-02-2014, 10:07
It isn't so much that I want to replace it mike, we have owned it from new (even have the receipt) I love that one, stupid and sentimental I know but it's the best telly we've ever had and a cracking sound too. We do have a flat screen as well but I just thought the old one would go on forever.
Nope. They do eventually go, even the good ones
:(
Haven't heard TV speaker for years - connected to the hifi !
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/560/p4pn.jpg
Marco.
Nice to know some of our senior politicians have such an excellent and informed position in the clmate change debate:
http://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/climate-change-denier-lord-lawson-is-an-expert-he-once-wrote-a-book-about-dieting/
Also worth dropping this into the discussion:
http://scepticalgp.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-elephant-in-the-flood/
Also worth dropping this into the discussion:
http://scepticalgp.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/the-elephant-in-the-flood/
'Storms, unstable weather, floods were all predicted years ago by scientists noting the increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and most people can see the connection'
Great prediction from the scientists, of course there was no such thing as storms, floods or bad weather until 'climate change' was invented. I predict that in the next Grand National some horses will fail to make it over some of the fences - don't forget to watch it and see how right I am.
Shocking levels of gullibility being shown here by some folk - this is a politically and financially motivated agenda hence the lies, the exaggerations, the nonsense predictions, the attempt to close down any debate by labelling people as 'deniers' in an attempt to link them with those who deny the Holocaust. This is all taken from the Marxist playbook, people, page one, chapter one. Don't continue to give it any credence it is nothing more than an attempt to destroy our civilisation so that a new, better world can arise in which the vast majority have to settle for less whilst the new commisars drive past us in their Zil lanes with a smug sense of superiority and satisfaction that they have 'saved the world'.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 11:07
most people can see the connection'.
Are" most people" qualified to make that observation Martin?
I certainly deny that 'climate change' is new and now with us. What we have always had is climate variability. Remember the El Nino thing years ago? We had all the 'climate change' stuff touted back then. We are certainly experiencing unusual variations in weather, but that is not new. What is new is the level of 'climate' hype and the amount of people jumping on that particular bandwagon.
Quite right. What we're seeing now is perfectly normal...
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 11:11
Quite right. What we're seeing now is perfectly normal...
If you are referring to my post Shane. I don't believe I stated that we were experiencing "normal" conditions. :scratch:
I would disagree that we are experiencing unusual weather. The weather in this country has always varied sharply, we can have 4 seasons in one day at any time of year. It was always said that Britain doesn't have a climate, just weather. That was long before this nonsense about man made climate change began. We have had a lot of rain in the past 6 or 7 weeks, big deal. The idea that it has never happened before is simply ridiculous. We are feeling the effects more now because of increased population and housing and because Government Agencies no longer do the fundamental work they were set up for and have become both corrupt and incompetent as have the politicians.
One other thing I have noted is that almost all of the flooded homes shown on the news reports are new builds (i.e last ten years or so). What does that tell you?
Oldpinkman
17-02-2014, 11:28
I would disagree that we are experiencing unusual weather. The weather in this country has always varied sharply, we can have 4 seasons in one day at any time of year. It was always said that Britain doesn't have a climate, just weather. That was long before this nonsense about man made climate change began. We have had a lot of rain in the past 6 or 7 weeks, big deal. The idea that it has never happened before is simply ridiculous. We are feeling the effects more now because of increased population and housing and because Government Agencies no longer do the fundamental work they were set up for and have become both corrupt and incompetent as have the politicians.
I guess it depends on your perspective. Thousands of years ago, the climate shifted to produce ice ages. Possibly it took meteor strikes to provoke those changes, or possibly it is part of a very long term natural cycle. 300 years ago it was "normal" for winters to be cold enough for the Thames to freeze over in London. But certainly in my lifetime, this most recent spell of weather has been exceptionally abnormal. Yalding typically floods every 13 years on average. Some of its troubles were due to flood management systems for nearby towns. But the levels along the length of the Medway were exceptional. It has flooded 3 times in a single winter - utterly without precedent, and been accompanied by 2 storms strong enough to rip a felt roof off. And even "normal" days have seen high winds which would normally be described as gales. We saw proper , real, warm sunshine yesterday for the first time in as long as I can remember
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 11:33
I would disagree that we are experiencing unusual weather. The weather in this country has always varied sharply, we can have 4 seasons in one day at any time of year. It was always said that Britain doesn't have a climate, just weather. That was long before this nonsense about man made climate change began. We have had a lot of rain in the past 6 or 7 weeks, big deal. The idea that it has never happened before is simply ridiculous. We are feeling the effects more now because of increased population and housing and because Government Agencies no longer do the fundamental work they were set up for and have become both corrupt and incompetent as have the politicians.
Yeah, I like that reply!
What we get these days is all the coverage, debate and 'expert opinion'. That's the big change.
Oldpinkman
17-02-2014, 11:36
One other thing I have noted is that almost all of the flooded homes shown on the news reports are new builds (i.e last ten years or so). What does that tell you?
Yup. We have a number of old houses either dating from Medieval times, or located on the site of previous Medieval buildings which flooded, but also an entire new estate. Worse, following the flood in 2000 a brand new purpose built doctors surgery (admittedly raised nearly 1.5m above ground level) was built right next to the Beult, and this time was an island in 3 feet of water. Why was it built there?
Because there is no other available land for building!! That is, there is no other land available for building if you stick to the arbitrary lines drawn on the local plan to show the area acceptable for development. Move the line a little bit to the dry north of the village, and - there's land! But "policy" insists it is undevelopable even when the only "available" land floods!
There is a brownfield site (former ICI chemical works) within the parish, next to the station, which is in fact nearly a mile and a half by road from the village centre - which is right next to the river and was under 1m of water again. It will get houses built on it, when there is no need to do so, because the chemical company have invested hundreds of thousands in decontamination with a view to getting planning, and will invest tens of thousands more in achieving their aims.
Stupid doesn't begin to do it justice! :(
Gordon Steadman
17-02-2014, 11:43
It looks to me as if 'deniers' was the right expression all along. Skeptic doesn't seem quite strong enough:scratch:
I'm a born septic (sic) but I don't fancy gambling on this one.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 12:00
"Deniers" is fer stockings mate! Denyers is wot I am.
Actually I checked a couple of online dictionaries and it seems 'denyers' would be correct, despite all the misuse in the media.
It looks to me as if 'deniers' was the right expression all along. Skeptic doesn't seem quite strong enough:scratch:
I'm a born septic (sic) but I don't fancy gambling on this one.
What exactly is the 'gamble' we are taking?
We can assume it is all true and that the weather will become more extreme, temperatures will rise and the ice caps melt and there is a global disaster. It won't kill everyone but it will change the world for the worse. So what is the solution? Well, the solution proposed is for mankind to stop emitting CO2. If we were to do that we would have to completely alter our entire civilisation and way of life because or entire civilisation is based on burning 'fossil fuels' for energy. No good just cutting down a bit the whole thing has to stop. At present there is no substitute for that essential energy except nuclear fission and that has its own issues. Again that would be a global disaster again it would not kill everyone but it would change the world for the worse.
Now given that at the present time there is no evidence that mankinds comparatively tiny contributuion to atmospheric CO2 is having any effect whatsoever it would seem that the best course of action is not to completely destroy our current civilisation but to carry on as we are and instead concentrate on preventing genuine and proven ecological damage our other activities create but which are now ignored by the media and by funding since that is all now channelled into nonsense projects like the windmills.
So we can destroy our world based on no evidence or carry on as we were. What is the gamble?
Like a lot of people I accepted the whole thing at face value when it first began 20 years ago but what drew my attention and started making me suspicious was the dire apocalyptic predictions that the 'scientists' were bandying about. Very worrying if true, but it all seemed to be a little over the top. Why was that? So I started reading up on the subject, reading between the lines and listening to all of the points of view. Now we are two decades on and all of the apocalyptic predictions have turned out to be wrong. Don't forget the ice caps should be gone by now, sea levels should have risen, global temp should be higher, 'children won't know what snow is', the west side highway in Manhatten should be underwater, all the polar bears should be dead from drowning, millions of tons of methane should have been released from the melted permafrost and so on. My conclusion - it is politically and financially motivated and has no basis in science whatsoever. You don't need to be a scientist to figure it out - the lies give it away. If the science was 'settled' then why the need for all the lies?
"Deniers" is fer stockings mate!
Yesh, I'm a ten, myself, 'Midnight Musk', matt finish, with extra Lycra... Hoo-hah! :bum:
Marco.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 12:20
Yesh, I'm a ten, myself, 'Midnight Musk', matt finish, with extra Lycra! :bum:
Marco.
God, I'm trying not to picture that. :eek:
Gordon Steadman
17-02-2014, 12:26
So you admit to being a denier - thats fine. The gamble is perhaps buying time until a solution can, if its possible, be found if the whole thing is true. If you are happy to tell your grandchildren that you took the chance on it all being rubbish and their lives are cut short because mankind did nothing..........if changing the way the world works is going to mean survival then it has to happen doesn't it.
I have said before, I am completely unqualified to have an opinion and so are most people, certainly those who seem to make the biggest noise about it. I would suggest that there is more money involved in trying to deny the thing exists than could possibly be made by the few scientists who are trying to push it.
We always seem to have the same discussion when this subject comes up so this time, I am just not going to get involved again. Its totally pointless trying to suggest that those with their minds set are capable of being swayed. Its almost a religion and that subject is just as emotive.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 12:30
http://www.definition.com.co/denyer.html
So you admit to being a denier - thats fine. .
A denyer of what exactly? Fake science? Marxism and Communism are religions based on faith. The faith of those who believe in them that they are morally right and hold the high ground. Faith that they alone know how the rest of us should live and that changing the world is an important task and it is up to them to do it as that will justify their existence in a world with no God. 'Climate Change' was a gift to these people just when they thought the jig was finally up with the collapse of Soviet Russia back in '89. Is it just a coincidence that all this began at the same time? Some of the scientists are indoctrinated (check out the leaked e-mails from the UEA CRU where they talk about 'The Cause') some of them are useful idiots and some just need to make a living and can't get a grant for other research so they have jumped on the bandwagon.
Money - The GW Bush administration alone spent 3 billion dollars on 'climate change research' - that's a lot of free money in the trough for any scientist looking for a research grant (which is how they eat, lets not forget).
Third world countries love it too because they hope to get millions in 'climate relief' money from the west. Hence the Maldives holding their little 'underwater parliament' stunt a couple of years back.
'Big Oil' gets well both ways. They continue to sell their fossil fuels without any problem (since alternative power sources can't supply demand) and they get millions in government subsidies to develop 'green technology'. It's a win-win for them.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 12:57
Well I'm a 'denyer' of other people's supposed right to foist uproven theories and opinions upon me.
who cares about the pantomime argument of the science of climate change ,not I .
Lets just deal with facts and the fact is burning fossil fuel is hazardous to all life on the planet ,
as a species with a relatively short lifespan we should take care of the planet for future generations ,
Unless you have a selfish interest in the fossil fuel industry I don't understand why anybody would have a different viewpoint ,
perhaps homicidal lunatics might see it differently .
look out he's behind you!
oh no he isn't!
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 13:20
the fact is burning fossil fuel is hazardous to all life on the planet
Is it?
who cares about the pantomime argument of the science of climate change ,not I .
Lets just deal with facts and the fact is burning fossil fuel is hazardous to all life on the planet ,
!
Is that a fact? How exactly does using fossil fuels endanger all life?
I see a lot of hot air and name calling from those who disagree with me but very little substance I have to say. I am able to change my position when confronted with good argument, I am not tied to my position nor do I identify personally with it. It is simply my objective viewpoint. I have no dog in the fight not do I own shares in oil companies or in anything else come to that.
Is that a fact? How exactly does using fossil fuels endanger all life?
I see a lot of hot air and name calling from those who disagree with me but very little substance I have to say. I am able to change my position when confronted with good argument, I am not tied to my position nor do I identify personally with it. It is simply my objective viewpoint. I have no dog in the fight not do I own shares in oil companies or in anything else come to that.
I am not name calling any one and I said hazardous not endanger , I was simply stating that the climate change argument is a tit for tat no win debate as we don't have enough knowledge (collectively) on climate . Air pollution created by the burning of fossil fuels though is undeniable .
Paul
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 17:08
I said hazardous not endangerl
Name one safe hazard! :)
It cannot be good to dump many hundreds of thousands of tons of waste products into an atmosphere which the flora and fauna in a given ecosystem has evolved to breath over millions of years, stands to reason really and anyone who argues otherwise is clearly confused at best and deluded at worst. I've said it before and no doubt will need to say it again many times more, this planet does not belong to us, we belong to the planet, think on that... :doh:
Rothchild
17-02-2014, 18:43
Now given that at the present time there is no evidence that mankinds comparatively tiny contributuion to atmospheric CO2 is having any effect whatsoever it would seem that the best course of action is not to completely destroy our current civilisation but to carry on as we are and instead concentrate on preventing genuine and proven ecological damage our other activities create but which are now ignored by the media and by funding since that is all now channelled into nonsense projects like the windmills.
This is really quite a grand conspiracy, it would appear at least that the only place that this view (that there is no compelling evidence of man made climate change) holds any traction is online message boards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change (yes I know it's wikipedia but those who think it's wrong are as able to change it as anyone else)
"Typically, the general public thinks that only around 50 percent of climate scientists agree that humans are causing global warming. This research has shown that the reality is 97 percent." http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-05/mtu-msa051613.php
I know science gets a relatively short shrift 'round these parts but just a cursory look around as to what those who actually study this stuff think seems to indicate that either there is a grand conspiracy or there's a decent consensus about what's what and that that points towards CO2 based 'man made' change.
I do agree however on the nonsense of new builds on flood plains, you might be amused by this extract from the 2001 manifesto of the Monster Raving Loony Party: Under a Loony government any prospective home purchaser be issued with a full description of such dictionary terms as ‘floodplain’, ‘coastal erosion’ and ‘exposed headland’. This will save time explaining why they have no house anymore after nature takes charge of the environment. http://www.loonyparty.com/
Thanks Marc. Your second link in particular really highlights what I am trying to say. If you read the article linked to it actially says that the 97% figure is derived from studying the opinions if those who had written a paper on climate change in the last twenty years AND who ecpressed an opinion. So not 97% of all scientists at all but in fact just a few scientists all of whom were making aliving reaserching climate change. Not likely to be biased are they?
Rothchild
17-02-2014, 19:42
Nah, the more people who want to claim something the greater the value in disproving it, it's part of the internal market / check and balance of the peer review scientific method.
Yes, it was academic research (as opposed to experimental) but what it says is that of ALL the people writing on climate change 97% of those who make any postulation as to the cause, put it down to being 'manmade'. Of course scientists who don't study climate change are less likely to make claims about the causes of climate change, but the overwhelming number of those who do find it to be connected with human activity. Are you suggesting that the authors of nearly 12,000 separate papers are colluding with each other to perpetrate a lie on behalf of wind turbine manufacturers? Or that they're all just bare faced lying, for what, the hell of it?
Fair enough, in terms of your original point that I quoted this doesn't confirm that that consensus is on CO2 emissions but if you look a bit further (ie via the site referred to in the article: SkepticalScience.com) then you'll see that it is mostly grounded in discussions on the effects of CO2.
Okay, lets examine the funding on both sides shall we (f*ck, I hate having to explain the bloody obvious to those who don't give a toss about shitting in their own bed)? Who is funding who? Well. those scientists (and this block is becoming ever smaller by the day as those who support them are waking up to the possibility they might not be here to make a profit sometime in the future) who argue that climate change is not happening are by and large funded by the oil and automotive industries (no vested interests there then). Most of those examining and supporting climate change are funded by interests which are concerned that we could be destroying our own environment, I know who I trust...
I dont trust any of them.
I do trust people to generally act in their own interests. So climate change scientists push climate change and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. There is no big conspiracey, just a number of different vested interests using the whole thing as a gravy train and/or a means to their own ends.
I dont trust any of them.
I do trust people to generally act in their own interests. So climate change scientists push climate change and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. There is no big conspiracey, just a number of different vested interests using the whole thing as a gravy train and/or a means to their own ends.
The thing is Martin, and I'm sorry to be so blunt, you'd have to be completely blind not to realize that all is not well with the climate across the globe. For instance, the recent horrendous weather both here and in the US is due to pack ice melt and rising temperatures in the Arctic. This has adversely affected the jetstream, effectively slowing it down, due to a lessening temperature differential between the northern polar and equatorial regions. It is this temperature differential which powers the jetstream and directs its path, both of which have changed as a result of the rapidly rising mean temperature in the Arctic. Now, it would be remiss of us not to look into this to find out just what the hell is causing it and for that you need experts in the field, which have to be paid for.
Gordon Steadman
17-02-2014, 21:33
The thing is Martin, and I'm sorry to be so blunt, you'd have to be completely blind not to realize that all is not well with the climate across the globe. For instance, the recent horrendous weather both here and in the US is due to pack ice melt and rising temperatures in the Arctic. This has adversely affected the jetstream, effectively slowing it down, due to a lessening temperature differential between the northern polar and equatorial regions. It is this temperature differential which powers the jetstream and directs its path, both of which have changed as a result of the rapidly rising mean temperature in the Arctic. Now, it would be remiss of us not to look into this to find out just what the hell is causing it and for that you need experts in the field, which have to be paid for.
Sorry Dave but you are wasting your time. I butted out because there is no point discussing something with anyone whose mind is made up. You might as well try and convince me that we might be visited by little green men and that there is anything beyond the reality I see, touch and hear:eyebrows:
I think I'm going to stick to discussing music/hi-fi in future.
Sorry Dave but you are wasting your time. I butted out because there is no point discussing something with anyone whose mind is made up. You might as well try and convince me that we might be visited by little green men and that there is anything beyond the reality I see, touch and hear:eyebrows:
I think I'm going to stick to discussing music/hi-fi in future.
Gordon you havn't discussed anything or presented any rebuttal to my arguements you have just called me a 'denier' and when that didn't work you gave up.
Anyways I like a bit of robust debate for the sake of it and I hope no-one is taking any of it personally. I've said my piece about the whole thing so i'll leave it there. Anyone who wants to continue telling everyone that that the sky is falling in plrase carry on I will not interrupt.
Chiken Little I am looking at you...
Sorry Dave but you are wasting your time. I butted out because there is no point discussing something with anyone whose mind is made up. You might as well try and convince me that we might be visited by little green men and that there is anything beyond the reality I see, touch and hear:eyebrows:
I think I'm going to stick to discussing music/hi-fi in future.
I am passionate about this subject, that much is clear, however robust debate about this or any other subject is one method for eeking out some semblance of truth from the morass of disinformation and lies which can dog any controversial theory or subject. I've debated with Martin many times and understand that he enjoys playing Devils Advocate on subjects such as this, and more power to his elbow I say. Martin is particularly effective at cutting through the crap and getting down to the nitty gritty and rightly expects those who hold strong opinions to at least try to back them up with a fact or two.
As for the UFO question Gordon, I would hope that I have never brow-beaten anyone into believing as it is such an intimate and personal experience only really understood by those who have had an encounter. For example I erred on the side of skepticism until my first sighting in the mid 1970's, which changed my outlook on life and the existence of life elsewhere completely. Incidentally I spend the vast majority of my time researching new sightings from a position that it is more likely than not what was observed was something familiar witnessed in highly unusual circumstances, and oftentimes this is true. On average only about three to five percent of sightings warrant the label 'unexplained' and even then I would be loath to identify what was observed as an alien spacecraft because I simply cannot be certain. UFOlogy is a fickle and coy mistress which enjoys nothing more than keeping her suitors on the back foot ;)
Gordon Steadman
18-02-2014, 12:49
I am passionate about this subject, that much is clear, however robust debate about this or any other subject is one method for eeking out some semblance of truth from the morass of disinformation and lies which can dog any controversial theory or subject. I've debated with Martin many times and understand that he enjoys playing Devils Advocate on subjects such as this, and more power to his elbow I say. Martin is particularly effective at cutting through the crap and getting down to the nitty gritty and rightly expects those who hold strong opinions to at least try to back them up with a fact or two.
As for the UFO question Gordon, I would hope that I have never brow-beaten anyone into believing as it is such an intimate and personal experience only really understood by those who have had an encounter. For example I erred on the side of skepticism until my first sighting in the mid 1970's, which changed my outlook on life and the existence of life elsewhere completely. Incidentally I spend the vast majority of my time researching new sightings from a position that it is more likely than not what was observed was something familiar witnessed in highly unusual circumstances, and oftentimes this is true. On average only about three to five percent of sightings warrant the label 'unexplained' and even then I would be loath to identify what was observed as an alien spacecraft because I simply cannot be certain. UFOlogy is a fickle and coy mistress which enjoys nothing more than keeping her suitors on the back foot ;)
I agree that robust debate is fine but unless the person debating has real knowledge rather than hearsay, the opinion is worthless. That goes for me. I have no opinion. What I object to is the 'fact' that its all a scam which seems strange as they are happy to question the 'facts' quoted in the opposite direction. The evidence quoted is straight out of the regular denyers bible and offers nothing new. However, I did say I wouldn't comment further and this is the last, whatever might come back about this.
As far as UFOs are concerned, the maths seems to make it likely that there is life out there is always the possibility that we might have a visit eventually. No proof that I would consider proof as yet but you never know. The problem with the 'paranormal' label is that the whole scene is full of obvious quacks taking advantage of the gullible. It is my, so far unshakable, belief that here and now is all there is. What you see is what you get. Wide reading on the subject has merely reinforced a personal feeling.
I could be proved wrong yet.:)
walpurgis
18-02-2014, 20:02
It is my, so far unshakable, belief that here and now is all there is. What you see is what you get. )
Quite right. Anything else is just mystical, superstitious mumbo jumbo in my view.
As a practising Catholic for 48 years, and someone who believes in God, it's a good job that I keep out of these debates, eh? ;)
Marco.
I couldn't be arsed to even nibble the bait...
walpurgis
18-02-2014, 21:21
Go on Dave. Just a teeny nibble?
Actually, I just said what I did, to see if anybody would bite. :)
Go on Dave. Just a teeny nibble?
Actually, I just said what I did, to see if anybody would bite. :)
You're a bad man Geoff, you know that don't you? :lol:
walpurgis
18-02-2014, 21:37
You're a bad man Geoff, you know that don't you? :lol:
I've been called that and a lot worse! ;)
I'm not about to get all 'ecclesiastical' on your posterior, it's your life and you have your own beliefs and I respect that. The trouble is, life tends to call our bluff from time to time and I look forward to discussing this further with you should it ever happen ;) If I had a pound for everyone who has ever said to me, "I had no idea, I used to be a total skeptic until it happened to me", I'd be a rich man... hehe
Anyway, back on topic: I note there is another storm bearing down on us... :eyebrows:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/Clipart-Cartoon-Design-04_zps272dd206.gif (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/Clipart-Cartoon-Design-04_zps272dd206.gif.html)
Hi folks I'm Zardov from the planet Marillion, can anyone recommend a nice pair of speakers to take back home. I can pay in Zirconia coin only and they need to be small to fit in here?
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/Clipart-Cartoon-Design-04_zps272dd206.gif (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/Clipart-Cartoon-Design-04_zps272dd206.gif.html)
Hi folks I'm Zardov from the planet Marillion, can anyone recommend a nice pair of speakers to take back home. I can pay in Zirconia coin only and they need to be small to fit in here?
:rfl:
The Grand Wazoo
18-02-2014, 23:22
I can pay in Zirconia coin only
I have a pair of Wilson Audio WAMM's that you could have, but unfortunately I don't have any change - haven't you got anything smaller?
walpurgis
19-02-2014, 10:59
I wonder how things are on the Somerset Levels now. Hope it dries out soon. There must be hundreds of unfortunate people who will no doubt be spending a fair bit of their summer putting things right.
MikeMusic
19-02-2014, 11:17
I wonder how things are on the Somerset Levels now. Hope it dries out soon. There must be hundreds of unfortunate people who will no doubt be spending a fair bit of their summer putting things right.
By which time we will be in a drought. So the forecast has forecasted ...... 50:50 on that ?
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