View Full Version : What are speaker grilles good for?
StanleyB
08-02-2014, 20:29
I fail to grasp the idea behind them. No matter how hard I try to leave mine on whilst listening to music, the amount of loss in music quality just doesn't make for a satisfying listening experience. But am I the only one with such prejudices towards speaker grills?
walpurgis
08-02-2014, 20:32
Totally agree. I've yet to come across a speaker that I preferred with grilles on. As far as I'm concerned they're just for protection.
No. I don't listen with grilles in place and I can't understand why anyone would. Even when they claim to be acoustically transparent. If it had existence in the material world it can' t be acoustically transparent.
Only popped on to avoid the magnetic effect of dust caps on young fingers
"What are speaker grills good for?" - I refer the honourable gentleman to my avatar! :lol:
You feed them your speaker grilles? :eek:
Marco.
Not a bad idea, actually!
I fail to grasp the idea behind them. No matter how hard I try to leave mine on whilst listening to music, the amount of loss in music quality just doesn't make for a satisfying listening experience. But am I the only one with such prejudices towards speaker grills?
Hi Stan,
Broadly, I agree. However, with some loudspeakers, the correct tonal response can only be achieved by keeping the grilles on, as they've been factored into the overall design, and so don't sound right without the grilles in place.
I'm thinking here of the BBC designs from Spendor and Harbeth, and also the likes of Naim - all of which *should* sound much better with grilles on, but as with anything else, it's all down to personal taste.
In general I've found that if the grilles included with speakers are simply an 'afterthought', as it were, then there's no point in using them :)
Marco.
Not a bad idea, actually!
Well, it's likely to keep them quiet and probably more nutritious than chicken nuggets! :D
Marco.
Well, it's likely to keep them quiet and probably more nutritious than chicken nuggets! :D
Marco.
Tastier too!
...However, with some loudspeakers, the correct tonal response can only be achieved by keeping the grilles on, as they've been factored into the overall design, and so don't sound right without the grilles in place.
I'm thinking here of the BBC designs from Spendor and Harbeth...
Joking aside, up until my Spendor SP1s all speakers I've owned have sounded better sans grills - but you're absolutely right, Marco - the SP1s and numerous Harbeths I've listened to are best with them left in situ. :)
It just depends what they're made of.
Mine have a plastic mesh with quite large holes. With the covers on or off, I can't tell the difference either way.
On some old ML Ascents I had the bass unit cover was ridiculous. It was basically made of thick plastic with relatively few holes in it. Taking those off really did make a difference, as it has done with many other speakers I've owned. But that ML one was insanely bad. You've got to try hard to make a cover that screws up bass.
Btw, daftees, remember that there is an 'e' in speaker grilles. 'Grills' are a rather different entity, and something you're more likely to find at your local steak house! ;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
09-02-2014, 07:44
Btw, daftees, remember that there is an 'e' in speaker grilles. 'Grills' are a rather different entity, and something you're more likely to find at your local steak house! ;)
Marco.
What a pedant the man is.
Join the clan, the pedants always were revolting:)
jandl100
09-02-2014, 08:12
Broadly, I agree. However, with some loudspeakers, the correct tonal response can only be achieved by keeping the grilles on, as they've been factored into the overall design, and so don't sound right without the grilles in place.
I'm thinking here of the BBC designs from Spendor and Harbeth, and also the likes of Naim
Yep, I agree, Marco.
Most speakers seem to be at least somewhat muffled by their grilles, the designers clearly not having designed them suitably (or maybe they just like dull sounding speakers!) but a few really do work best with them left on, ime.
My old Infinity RS2.5 ribbon hybrids and Leema Xaviers come to mind, as do the metal grilles on my MBLs - the MBLs are a touch bright without them.
And in accord with Alex - little fingers find it almost irresistible to prod at an exposed tweeter dome. :doh:
hifi_dave
09-02-2014, 10:08
In general, speakers are designed without a thought to using them with grilles in place. They are to protect the drivers and to provide a more domestically acceptable appearance and often, have a negative affect on the HF. So they will sound best without.
A handful of speakers, such as Harbeth and some Spendors, are designed to sound their best with the grilles in place. In fact, the Harbeth grilles are constructed from a metal frame with the fine cloth stretched over. This fits very snugly into a groove round the front face, so it doesn't rattle or buzz and is tricky to remove. Thereby encouraging the user to listen with grilles in place.
I agree with Marco that the use of "grill" is annoying. I also find the usage of "there", "their" and "they're" to be mildly amusing.
I took the grilles of my Harbeth SHL5 speakers once and very quickly put them back on again! As pointed out by those in the know, Alan Shaw designed them to be left on. I also don't like the appearance of bare drivers, so its win win for me :)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/SHL5-SNAUDIO_zps28538ea0.jpg
Here's what I mean, to me the left is much more aesthetically pleasing and sounds better too (well, to me and the designer it does).
How do you design a speaker to sound better with a load of cloth over the drivers? Just bang up the HF a bit? That's not a solution. It's just a sop to WAF IMO and so the audiophile can listen with grilles on and a happy wife and be happy in himself that this is 'how they were intended'.
Grilles ruin the sound IMO.
Well all I can say Martin is that I'm most definitely not an audiophile and I haven't got a wife and they sound better with than without, so they will be staying on ;)
Yes but you are Captain Tidy so it doesn't surprise me ;) - I have a couple of friends using B&W with the yellow Kevlar bass drivers and they have the grills on because the drivers are distracting. They claim it makes no difference too but it is wishful thinking IMO although having had similar B&W I know where they are coming from. No doubt the Harbeth grilles are as transparent as they come but that is still not transparent in my book.
The other thing is that properly designed grilles disperse and diffuse the sound more effectively and can make the presentation of the music sound more cohesive and natural, as a result, rather than having treble and midrange energy 'firing at you', as it were, and this can also improve the stereo image.
However, as Dave says, most of the time the grilles supplied with loudspeakers exist for safety or aesthetic reasons, and do nothing positive for the sound whatsoever, although do watch when it becomes necessary to remove them simply to inject some 'life' into a dull sounding system, or vice versa (to tame a bright sound), as this suggests that problems exist further upstream.
Basically, unless speakers have been specifically designed to be used with their grilles in place (or not), in all other instances either removing them or keeping them in place should not make or break the results obtained and/or massively affect your listening pleasure. If it does, there is something else in your system that requires your attention, other than the removal (or not) of your speaker grilles.
Marco.
Yes but you are Captain Tidy so it doesn't surprise me ;)
Hahaha, got me banged to rights there Martin :lol:
walpurgis
09-02-2014, 11:10
No doubt speakers can be designed to work well enough with grilles fitted, but ultimately an obstruction to the sound still remains exactly that. I would have thought speakers designed from the outset not to use grilles, must have the edge sound wise.
Audio Al
09-02-2014, 11:13
They keep the wife happy ( if you have one ) and in her eyes they are better looking with the grills on
If you bought some used speakers and the grilles were lost would you instead hang a cotton t-shirt over the front of them? Because that is what it amounts to. 'These sound a bit too good like this I'd better muffle them a bit.'
Agree with Marco, though it shouldn't be a deal-breaker as regards to SQ. If it is there is something wrong elsewhere.
No doubt speakers can be designed to work well enough with grilles fitted, but ultimately an obstruction to the sound still remains exactly that. I would have thought speakers designed from the outset not to use grilles, must have the edge sound wise.
Not always, Geoff. It's mainly a speaker design/system-dependent (and room) thing.
One of my mates has a pair of Tannoy Canterburys, which have removable grilles. He and I have listened umpteen times to his system with or without the grilles in place. It makes very little difference, and so ultimately we can quite happily listen to music with them on or off.
The same also applies in my system, with the Celestion 66s. With my Lockwoods, I don't have an option, as the grilles are fixed, and I've never felt the urge to rip them off either ;)
Marco.
They keep the wife happy ( if you have one ) and in her eyes they are better looking with the grills on
I should've thought with all that PISHANTO you've got cluttering up your humble abode, the LAST thing she'd have to worry about are speaker grilles!!! :D
Marco.
Audio Al
09-02-2014, 11:34
the LAST thing she'd have to worry about are speaker grilles!!!
I HAVEN'T got one . Oh BLISS :ner:
walpurgis
09-02-2014, 11:39
One of my mates has a pair of Tannoy Canterburys, which have removable grilles. He and I have listened umpteen times to his system with or without the grilles in place. It makes very little difference, and so ultimately we can quite happily listen to music with them on or off. Marco.
My Tannoys definitely sound better (and I think look better) with their grilles removed Marco. Mind you that may be down to the rather restrictive grille cloth used on that series of Tannoy models. The previous ranges (Lancaster/Chatsworth/York, etc.) with the traditional beige Tygan fronts seemed less affected.
I HAVEN'T got one . Oh BLISS :ner:
Whaddya mean? You introduced me to Maybel last time I was down......
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/843/93lw.jpg
Glad to see that you're wearing the pyjama bottoms I bought you.
Marco.
archiesdad
09-02-2014, 12:14
Some input from a manufacturer/designer would be so helpful here, as to me, I have the grills off-cause I can.
My Tannoys definitely sound better (and I think look better) with their grilles removed Marco. Mind you that may be down to the rather restrictive grille cloth used on that series of Tannoy models.
Precisely, Geoff. Those were obviously not proper speaker grilles. Different rules apply when they are :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
09-02-2014, 12:57
How do you design a speaker to sound better with a load of cloth over the drivers? Just bang up the HF a bit? That's not a solution. It's just a sop to WAF IMO and so the audiophile can listen with grilles on and a happy wife and be happy in himself that this is 'how they were intended'.
Grilles ruin the sound IMO.
Think in the opposite direction - the mechanical impedance can remove the need for adding a resistor to pad the tweeter down, or at least bring the values of any L Pad resistors down.
Think in the opposite direction - the mechanical impedance can remove the need for adding a resistor to pad the tweeter down, or at least bring the values of any L Pad resistors down.
That's fine if the grille does that and it just covers the tweeter. But grilles cover all of the drive units.
ATC's were tested and set with grilles ON in their domestic versions and my old Spendors, when there was foam cushioning under the thick and now severely dated grille cloth, used this foam to control dispersion. Now with crumbled-away foam, they look dire with or without grilles, so I'm beggared really (little sonic difference).
Modern Harbeths have little discs under their tweeter mesh (on some models) to control dispersion and the 'frameless' grille frets allow the cloth to directly touch the tweeter mesh. Apparently, doing it this way, the cloth has no effect at all, as it would if it was a cm or so away..
Since all rooms and systems are different, I suppose one could try it any way you like, as once you get a couple of metres away from the things, the room will dictate the sonics far more than having the grilles in situ - in my opinion.
Stratmangler
09-02-2014, 13:22
That's fine if the grille does that and it just covers the tweeter. But grilles cover all of the drive units.
The tweeters are responsible for handling pretty well all of the leading edge response you hear.
Lower frequencies have longer wavelengths that are less impeded by grille cloth.
Play with bass frequencies at sufficient volume and brick walls allow enough sound through to get the neighbours calling up the police.
I too often prefer the sound from speakers sans grilles.
I have got a set of Wharfedale Diamond IIs kicking around - not been used in a very long time, but they sounded awful without the grille on, all nasal and quacky. With the grille on, and in close proximity to a wall and they produced a decent balanced sound - not the highest of fi, but communicative and musical nonetheless.
Martyn Miles
09-02-2014, 13:31
In general, speakers are designed without a thought to using them with grilles in place. They are to protect the drivers and to provide a more domestically acceptable appearance and often, have a negative affect on the HF. So they will sound best without.
A handful of speakers, such as Harbeth and some Spendors, are designed to sound their best with the grilles in place. In fact, the Harbeth grilles are constructed from a metal frame with the fine cloth stretched over. This fits very snugly into a groove round the front face, so it doesn't rattle or buzz and is tricky to remove. Thereby encouraging the user to listen with grilles in place.
I agree with Marco that the use of "grill" is annoying. I also find the usage of "there", "their" and "they're" to be mildly amusing.
How about 'grilling' a loudspeaker manufacturer about the use of 'their ' grilles...
The tweeters are responsible for handling pretty well all of the leading edge response you hear.
Lower frequencies have longer wavelengths that are less impeded by grille cloth.
.
'Less impeded' - but still impeded. Leading edge may be one thing but what about the subtle acoustical clues in the sound (mainly found in the mid range) that make it 'real'? - they get lost in the cloth. To an extent, anyway. When in doubt always use logic and logic dictates that (ideally) you don't want anything between the drivers and the ears. I don't see how it can be argued otherwise. Be interesting to hear an opinion from a professional speaker designer.
StanleyB
09-02-2014, 13:37
They keep the wife happy ( if you have one ) and in her eyes they are better looking with the grills on
Aren't you getting confused with a certain method of contraceptive :D?
S'ok, she thinks he looks better with a mask on, too! :eyebrows:
Marco.
When in doubt always use logic and logic dictates that (ideally) you don't want anything between the drivers and the ears. I don't see how it can be argued otherwise.
I thought that I'd already explained precisely how it could be argued otherwise, and we'd reached consensus on it? :doh:
Marco.
I thought that I'd already explained precisely how it could be argued otherwise, and we'd reached consensus on it? :doh:
Marco.
No, I still think you should rip the grilles off those Lockies :)
StanleyB
09-02-2014, 13:52
They keep the wife happy ( if you have one ) and in her eyes they are better looking with the grills on
Are you sure you are not referring to a certain method of contraceptive:ner:?
No, I still think you should rip the grilles off those Lockies :)
Aye, that'll be fooking right! :nono:
Besides, it's a fact that all Harbeth speakers sound pish without their grilles. Trust me, if you'd done the comparison, you wouldn't be arguing with me ;)
Marco.
Aye, that'll be fooking right! :nono:
Besides, it's a fact that all Harbeth speakers sound pish without their grilles. Trust me, if you'd done the comparison, you wouldn't be arguing with me ;)
Marco.
Well fair enough I haven't so I probably shouldn't. I've only heard Harbeths one time (they were without the grilles).
If you bought some used speakers and the grilles were lost would you instead hang a cotton t-shirt over the front of them? Because that is what it amounts to. 'These sound a bit too good like this I'd better muffle them a bit.'
Agree with Marco, though it shouldn't be a deal-breaker as regards to SQ. If it is there is something wrong elsewhere.
My TLR's came without grilles...I hang two dish towels over them when the missus and mutt is around. When she's out they come off and there is a difference. Quite a big difference to my ears. My missions ? I keep em on all the time or my missus would have put her hand through the left one as she sits right next to it.
Aye, that'll be fooking right! :nono:
Besides, it's a fact that all Harbeth speakers sound pish without their grilles. Trust me, if you'd done the comparison, you wouldn't be arguing with me ;)
Marco.
Same goes with Royd speakers, the grilles are part of the design and sound balance, not just some after-thought to increase WAF. :P
Think in the opposite direction - the mechanical impedance can remove the need for adding a resistor to pad the tweeter down, or at least bring the values of any L Pad resistors down.
Interesting comment especially considering the 1st & maximum (e.g. Sorcerer) 2nd order crossovers of Royd speakers.
The Grand Wazoo
09-02-2014, 18:05
Speaker grills?
Maybe I'm not doing it right, but I can't seem to get mine up to temperature. Does this mean they've already been burnt in?
I believe that Burger King are adding them to their 'specials' menu.
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
09-02-2014, 18:31
Just to be awkward (who, me?) there are grilles, and then there are grilles.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m604/awkwardbydesign/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000071_zps879c3435.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/awkwardbydesign/media/JENZEN%20SEAS%20ER/P1000071_zps879c3435.jpg.html)
wee tee cee
09-02-2014, 18:57
I run SP1s with the cloth thingies off, to my ears the thingies in place muffle the sound. Tried the statics with the socks rolled down, bit like old ladies! Was shiting it someone would get fried. Might have to give it another try.....bloody thread!!!!
awkwardbydesign
09-02-2014, 19:15
I have always found my speakers sound better when I can't see the drivers. Lights out, grilles on, whatever. I know it is purely subjective, but I wonder how much expectation bias is involved, in general. If you expect them to sound muffled with grilles on, they will.
Where's a measurist when you need one?
Maybe I just make ugly speakers!
wee tee cee
09-02-2014, 19:45
plumbed in the 63s and pulled the socks down......yup better sounding naked IMHO!!!!
Stratmangler
09-02-2014, 20:29
but what about the subtle acoustical clues in the sound (mainly found in the mid range) that make it 'real'? - they get lost in the cloth
It's the HF content that defines the cues - remove the HF and things are much more vague, and that's irrespective of whether the speaker is clothed or not.
The midrange is quite non directional without the HF leading edges being there.
Clive197
16-02-2014, 14:12
The answer my friends is "42".
Only joking, the real answer is the "SWMBO" effect. Her indoors doesn't like looking a bare speakers when watching TV. do I care, I run Spendor's.
Clive
I think it depends on the speaker and the grille as to just how much difference they make. When I think of the cloth on Leak Sandwich's compared to that on a more modern speaker the one is clearly going to have more of an effect.
Then of course there is the individual speaker, is one giving more highs than another? Quite possible..
On top of that there is personal preference in both look and sound.
The only thing I'm sure of is that for me it is easier to focus on the music with them on as I seem not to be aware of the speakers when I'm not seeing drivers.
kininigin
16-02-2014, 18:17
My Paradigms are specifically desigend to have the grilles left on apparently! And they do sound better with them left on sounding more focused!
Here is a paragraph of a review from Stereophile and what they said about this!
''Moving higher in frequency in fig.2, the Active/20 features a very smooth response on the tweeter axis, with perhaps a slightly recessed output in the mid-treble. Certainly, this is how it sounded in the listening room. The output returns above the 0dB line above 18kHz, but this should not present any subjective problems. This curve was taken with the grille on. Removing the grille results in a response peak almost 5dB high just below 4kHz (fig.3), presumably because the tweeter no longer sees a clean, nonobstructive acoustic environment. Do not listen to this speaker with its grille removed.''
Yup, Darren, that's another valid example of what I said earlier. Quite simply, if the grilles were originally factored into the design equation, then speakers will sound better with them on :)
Marco.
I leave the grilles on the Audiovector speakers. I've tried listening with them off and can't hear any difference. The Harbeths upstairs are desinged to be listened to with grilles in place, so they stay on too.
Gosh what a dull post. Time for bed!
Btw, daftees, remember that there is an 'e' in speaker grilles. 'Grills' are a rather different entity, and something you're more likely to find at your local steak house! ;)
Marco.
And Grillas are large apes who thump their chests.
The Grand Wazoo
17-02-2014, 00:01
I actually don't know how to remove the grilles of my speakers - they are so intrinsic to the design that some dis-assembly would be required. And no, I don't know what the drivers look like, as I've never seen them!
And Grillas are large apes who thump their chests.
Yeah, and don't let anyone forget it!
Marco.
icehockeyboy
17-02-2014, 13:57
Whether you have your grilles on or off is entirely up to your other half.
End of.
Lol - aye, if you're hen-pecked! ;)
Marco (the 'grille boss' in our house).
Don't forget the breeders, little fingers can be just as persuasive as waf.
Ah! The joy of bachelor life.
twickers
17-02-2014, 19:05
I actually don't know how to remove the grilles of my speakers - they are so intrinsic to the design that some dis-assembly would be required. And no, I don't know what the drivers look like, as I've never seen them!
Come on, get 'em OFF. Let's check those baffles out. :eyebrows:
Whether you have your grilles on or off is entirely up to your other half.
End of.
Hmm you've never used Harbeth or Royd speakers then?
The Grand Wazoo
17-02-2014, 20:41
Come on, get 'em OFF. Let's check those baffles out. :eyebrows:
I really don't know how to do it! I've tried, believe me.
I really don't know how to do it! I've tried, believe me.
Scissors...;)
My Skibo's have specific grills for both the bass and midrange drivers but are not supplied with grills for the tweeter as these sit in their own enclosure on top of the cabs. I've tried the Skibo's with grills in place and removed and I cannot detect any difference in SQ at all so I leave them in place for protection and aesthetic reasons. Here they are with the mid grills removed:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/0773077e-0573-4814-be9e-b81636f9afe3.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/0773077e-0573-4814-be9e-b81636f9afe3.jpg.html)
I keep mine on with my Quad 21's....looks better and sound better.....the MS's sound better when off, but not by much, so I guess it is dependant....
I've designed both my speakers to be listened to with or without grillEs, but the Rhapsodys do benefit from a broader image with grillEs in place as they also hold acoustic felt to dampen edge diffraction around the tweeter.
It's an urban myth that all grilles rob HF of response btw. It depends entirely on what material is used. I use a light denier polyester (typically 20 denier which is 20 micrometers thick in a stretchy weave which still protects from dust but does not absorb HF) which is acoustically transparent and measurably so (yes, I have measured the response and there's absolutely zero difference, grilles on or off when it comes to on-axis response measured at 1m).
Oldpinkman
20-02-2014, 21:12
Until today I would always have said "grills off" but the grills on the r700s are really transparent
Ooh, interesting read (and loving the Harbeth speaker porn a few pages back).
My B&Ws (CDM 9NT) have two grilles - conventional grilles on plastic frames over the mid and woofers and wee magnetic mesh things over the tweeters (which sit in those little Nautilus-style pods and a sharply raked baffle). The centre channel CDM CNT has the same kind of arrangement. I have always left the snap-on mesh over the tweeters in place for safety's sake, but tend to take (leave) the cloth grilles off. I tend to think there's more clarity grilles off, but I have deep suspicions it may be psychosomatic. Sometimes I'll pop the grilles back on and they'll stay thee for many months, and I never feel the sound is closed off.
Oh, and far from being distracting I rather like the yellow Kevlar of the B&W midrange. Part of their charm and distinction. Each to his own I guess.
http://www.timefordvd.com/images/hardware/BW_CDM_9NT_large.jpg
My principal "theoretical" objection to the mid/woofer grilles is that (being long and slender) they have two plastic cross-struts presumably to stop them flexing. I imagine they have a potentially audible effect. No evidence of this, and I'm sure I couldn't tell in a blind test - it's just my superstition and bias.
Oldpinkman
22-02-2014, 18:12
Scratch my earlier comment. R700s much better with the grills off :doh:
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