Placebo-philes

[webby]

An interesting, albeit not entirely unique, point of view.

http://www.anxiousmachine.com/blog/2013/12/10/placibo-philes

[sumday]

oh dear mate, as someone who buys almost all of his gear from carboot, junkshops etc and NEVER pays more than 50 quid an item, can I say you'll not get too much positive feedback here!!!

I have to say I tend to agree with much of the original article though...:)

[Reffc]

A rather muddled and mixed piece imho and not that focussed on any specific issue except that last bit which states that "you don't need ultra high end gear to enjoy your music". No one is going to argue with that. Other than that I can't really see what point he's making other than he used to have an expensive headphone set up and I think he's suggesting those spending more than he can justify are wasting their money or are under a delusion that it will make them happier. Of course money doesn't buy happiness (it may help!) but I find that most enthusiasts spend within budgets to achieve the best possible sound quality because that does most certainly matter if emotional and sensory response is the be maximised (in most cases. I'm sure there's those who are perfectly happy with a midi system and if so, more power to them).

Just another article in a long line of similar articles telling us that what we know matters to us doesn't matter and it's all in our heads? I find that rather an insult to music and to those whose hobby (perhaps more than the music itself) is hifi, although he does have a point on the extreme end of things.

Apart from anything else, he's talking absolute rot. Moving to high quality audio gear is NOT placebo effect if it produces the goods and one does not necessarily have to attach a high price tag...just good design.

[wee tee cee]

Some people are happy to travel from a-b in a banger.Some people take pleasure from driving or riding the same road in something that gives them pleasure enabling them to more from the route. Be it aesthetics or performance of the machine. Horses for courses....whatever floats yer boat!!
Their will always be those who quote speed limits and question why you would need a vehicle that can exceed it. I love music but take pleasure from it being reproduced as well as I can afford.

[Gazjam]

wot he said.

More money CAN SOMETIMES get you closer to the music, but you DON'T have to spend a fortune to get good music, and to me that's what AOS (and my own Journey) is all about.

(Though having spent a bit of money on my system recently I appreciate the benefits.....)
All subjective, not any happier than i was with my system 5 years ago, just that my goalposts have shifted. :)

[Macca]

I stopped reading at 'headphones'

No, not really but lets face it headphones are always a compromise too far no matter what you spend. Be interesting to see if he changed his view when presented with a proper set up with good loudspeakers.

[awkwardbydesign]

Very simplistic, some of it. And plain misdirect in parts;
"Perhaps not surprisingly, a trip to the chiropractor or the acupuncturist is much more likely to reduce your stress than a trip to the doctor. If anything, a trip to the doctor makes you more anxious."
I had back problems, doctors gave me pills, a physiotherapist at an NHS hospital caused more damage. An osteopath moved the joint and cured the problem!
It's always nice to find justification for your experiences.

[nat8808]

Some people are happy to travel from a-b in a banger.Some people take pleasure from driving or riding the same road in something that gives them pleasure enabling them to more from the route. Be it aesthetics or performance of the machine. Horses for courses....whatever floats yer boat!!
Their will always be those who quote speed limits and question why you would need a vehicle that can exceed it. I love music but take pleasure from it being reproduced as well as I can afford.

That's the wrong analogy.

A banger can still have a sweet engine or be comfortable or pleasure can be derived from it keeping going - "rat look" cars have a deliberate following, a kind of car-punk - a banger can have more of a feeling of being connected to the road compared the isolated and swaddled feeling of a modern heavy, sound insulated car (which I mostly detest - like "life" has been extracted from driving and just reduced to something of a chore or an old person's comfy armchair).

[nat8808]

I had moments almost as absurd with my headphones, when I heard things inside songs I swore I'd never heard before, when I felt as if parts of the music were two dimensional backdrops and then three dimensional shapes would leap out of the picture towards me, or the music would drizzle over my head, or crackle like lightning, or I'd swear I could smell the studio where the song had been recorded, or something.

In other words, I was an idiot. Because on other nights, usually after I'd owned that same set of gear for a little while, I wouldn't hear those things any more, and I'd start thinking that I needed better gear. I needed a new placebo affect.

Placebo effects can work both ways...

He had a good set up is sounds like and then he convinced himself he was being fooled..

Sometimes you have to be relaxed enough for your brain to be fooled (in a good way) by the sound to make 3D-ness pop out, if your mind is one something else, it's not always going to happen. But either way you need a good set up to get the effect.

I've had a similar unnatural effect too with Celestion SL600s which confused my brain on first ever listen and pushed the sound right in front of my eyes, then I got used to it and they went back to normal - if the brain isn't used to a sound field it will have a period of time trying to work it out, no different to visual confusion like shadow on say photos of craters on the moon, are they craters or mountains?

I came away from the article thinking "what a plonker".

[anthonyTD]

I can see [to some extent] where the Author is coming from, however, i feel he is describing two very different effects,and therefore, two different kinds of people, ie; the first' people who pay ridiculous amounts of money on equipment, and expect to hear a significant improvement, and therefore will themselves to hear it,[like the author] and then find over time, that in fact there was no real improvement at all. Secondly, those who genuinely strive to hear real improvements, and try very hard to not get sucked in by the ridiculous notion that by throwing more money at something, you will Automatically' and always get better results. In my experience,These people will first invest their time, then spend money, but only if they genuinely hear a significant, and lasting improvement.
These two kinds of people can be found in all matters of life, you just have to decide which side your on.
A...

[Spectral Morn]

'placebo' :(

That word gets my back up from word go. I am frankly sick of people telling me what I can and can't hear and particularly objectavists that use that word 'placebo' as a precursor to other words phrases such as 'expectation bias'. Frankly I find it insulting... the way these opinions are usually expressed.

I would love to know why some folks can hear things and others can't but I suspect sadly this is one of those things that won't ever be solved and articles that claim the truth of a matter, as if their limited 'possibly valid' findings speaks for all and thus can be used/claimed as a universal truth also takes me to the fair.

I know what I can and can't hear but that is all I can say, as I can't climb in others heads and hear what they hear or don't hear.

Anyway I predict a riot with this topic as it always ends up with clear divisions and opposing armies squaring of to each other.


Regards Neil

[Joe]

It's not really a subj/obj thing at all. If I say 'I can hear that X is better than Y' then that's good enough for me. If however I want to persuade or convince others that X is better than Y, then I'll need to demonstrate it to them, preferably so they don't know whether they're listening to X or Y. That's still based on a subjective listening experience.

The objectivist viewpoint would be 'X measures better than Y, therefore it is better, and there's no need to listen to the two to validate that'.

[nat8808]

'placebo' :(

That word gets my back up from word go. I am frankly sick of people telling me what I can and can't hear and particularly objectavists that use that word 'placebo' as a precursor to other words phrases such as 'expectation bias'. Frankly I find it insulting... the way these opinions are usually expressed.

I would love to know why some folks can hear things and others can't but I suspect sadly this is one of those things that won't ever be solved and articles that claim the truth of a matter, as if their limited 'possibly valid' findings speaks for all and thus can be used/claimed as a universal truth also takes me to the fair.

I know what I can and can't hear but that is all I can say, as I can't climb in others heads and hear what they hear or don't hear.

Anyway I predict a riot with this topic as it always ends up with clear divisions and opposing armies squaring of to each other.


Regards Neil

That might indicate that you're reacting emotionally to being told it's a placebo effect and therefore your subjective judgement is obscured by that emotion. emotions are powerful thingsl

Placebo effects are real and are amazingly powerful..

However, what the blog post describes appears to be REAL, big differences in sound and then believing that he's being fooled after having read some artcile about the placebo effect. Now he is unable to judge his own senses without his concious thought convincing himself he's imagining it.

No wonder the whole blog is about anxiety l someone who genuinly suffers from anxiety is always convinced by their thoughts and imagination and hence why they are over-anxious.

placebo effect comes in when differences are subtle in this hobby. some people like to overblow subtle, non repeatable differences as major changes in sound.

[Spectral Morn]

That might indicate that you're reacting emotionally to being told it's a placebo effect and therefore your subjective judgement is obscured by that emotion. emotions are powerful thingsl

Placebo effects are real and are amazingly powerful..

However, what the blog post describes appears to be REAL, big differences in sound and then believing that he's being fooled after having read some artcile about the placebo effect. Now he is unable to judge his own senses without his concious thought convincing himself he's imagining it.

No wonder the whole blog is about anxiety l someone who genuinly suffers from anxiety is always convinced by their thoughts and imagination and hence why they are over-anxious.

placebo effect comes in when differences are subtle in this hobby. some people like to overblow subtle, non repeatable differences as major changes in sound.

Yep I have an emotional response to folks telling me I can't hear stuff I can hear. Often they have never heard the gear in question, in a remotely similar system or room but still feel qualified to comment ;)

I am totally secure in what I hear and my listening abilities - so my 'emotional' response is based not on that but simply the audacity some people have in thinking they have a right to dismiss my valid listening experiences in the way that this often happens.

First forum I joined years ago was Zero Gain - what a serious mistake ..... burn the subjectavist was their battle cry. I left and joined AOS.

I am not saying by the way that measurements aren't important but ears must be the final arbiter not an oscilloscope.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

It's not really a subj/obj thing at all. If I say 'I can hear that X is better than Y' then that's good enough for me. If however I want to persuade or convince others that X is better than Y, then I'll need to demonstrate it to them, preferably so they don't know whether they're listening to X or Y. That's still based on a subjective listening experience.

The objectivist viewpoint would be 'X measures better than Y, therefore it is better, and there's no need to listen to the two to validate that'.

Thing is X may only be better than Y in a similar/identical context/identical type of room/system/music - that kind of puts the cat among the pigeons and would make it harder to do this.


Regards Neil

[Joe]

Thing is X may only be better than Y in a similar/identical context/identical type of room/system/music - that kind of puts the cat among the pigeons and would make it harder to do this.


Regards Neil

They'd have to come over to my place to do the comparison. There's no way I'm schlepping lots of stuff around just to satisfy people's idle curiosity.

Seriously though, it's not even a matter of establishing that 'X is better than Y' (because tastes differ) but establishing that 'X sounds different to Y', which is a yes/no question and thus easier to answer.

[nat8808]

Yep I have an emotional response to folks telling me I can't hear stuff I can hear. Often they have never heard the gear in question, in a remotely similar system or room but still feel qualified to comment ;)

I am totally secure in what I hear and my listening abilities - so my 'emotional' response is based not on that but simply the audacity some people have in thinking they have a right to dismiss my valid listening experiences in the way that this often happens.

First forum I joined years ago was Zero Gain - what a serious mistake ..... burn the subjectavist was their battle cry. I left and joined AOS.

I am not saying by the way that measurements aren't important but ears must be the final arbiter not an oscilloscope.


Regards Neil

I have to own up that I was teasing with the emotional response bit I wrote..

However the rest was serious - that you believe that your brain response to a stimulous via your ear holes is an unfiltered, unadulterated direct response to the pressure waves hitting those ears is completely accurate, a kind of "straight wire" is fine.

But the whole point of the placebo effect is that one BELIEVES !

There is no way to tell if differences you hear are true or not, none whatsoever, not without some external confirmation that isn't human and therefore possibly experiencing the very same placebo effects as you. Therefore some people give up and turn to measurements, others turn to a kind of artisan science of "feeling".

However some people just believe anything that their brain tells them is "the truth" even when it's rediculous e.g. someone at work was being rude when they weren't, someone farted when it was just someone's shoe squeeking, their other half is definately having an affair when they're the most loyal partner they've ever had, some crystals placed on a cable makes the midrange more musical, there's a psychic connection with someone because they called when you thought of them, God exists and is a man with a white beard, Jesus was white etc etc - in every case the believer will "know" that what they believe is the truth and nothing will convince them otherwise.

In my opinion it is better to admit that one doesn't know whether its just a placebo effect and therefore be cautious and humble about subtle changes in perception of sound. You have to try your best to take yourself out of yourself to make better judgement, not just with audio (audio doesn't really matter) but in life in general