Looking for SL FF achromat

[oxela23]

Hi All,

I'm looking to pick up an SL specific FF achromat and thought I'd check theres no Techies selling one before i purchase new? Also happy to hear about any dealers who sell this at a competitive rate?

Thanks

Alex

[nat8808]

Is that the one with the little lip cut out? Could it be done to a normal secondhand one?

[belloire]

i use a normal 3mm achromat on my tt, to excellent effect, and Lee (setting son) uses a standard 5mm. don't need sticking down like the sl variant either

just in case you can get a standard one cheap anywhere..

[oxela23]

Hi Natt

Yea i think its designed to make allowance for the lip on the SL1200 platter. I didn't know it was required to be stuck down - if I'm picking you up correctly. Can anybody using the SL model comment on this?

Thanks for the input guys as the normal one is few quid cheaper than the SL one but want to make the best choice.

[Stratmangler]

The SL one fits the platter properly, and sits inside the lip.
It comes with some double sided adhesive pads.

[oxela23]

Thanks for clarifying that Chris.

[twotone]

I use one however I've just used the sticky tape but some people say that you should use vaseline smeared on the underside of the mat to stick the mat to the platter.

[walpurgis]

Never use petroleum based materials with synthetic rubber or any other kind of rubber! All sorts of horrible dissolving problems can arise!

[oxela23]

Thanks for comments folks, I ordered the SL specific one yesterday.

I don't have a rubber mat for the 1210 so was planning to put a 5 mil achromat on/ adjust VTA to suit. In fact i hope the mat helps raise the point of contact as the stock arm with with Denon 110 and Sumiko headshell sits a little high with VTA lowered to its max. Sorry to go off track, but is this normal?

[oxela23]

Okay the FF achromat has eventually arrived. I have the VTA set to the lowest point and the 'bubble spirit level' shows just off centre with sumiko headshell and DL110 cartridge so nearly all good there. I cant lower VTA anymore but a tiny little would help in case anyone has any suggestions?

Regardless, peoples suggestions re this mat have not disappointment and is clearly a huge improvement from an old slip mat.

Any other tips regarding setting the matt and VTA re stock arm and cart are welcomed.

Thanks

[Markiii]

can you get the SL specific in a 5mm? or just the 3mm?

[oxela23]

I got it in 5 mil and still a little off. I sat another mat on top to see the difference and it was enough to have bubble dead centre - so i reckon 1 mil offset would bring VTA bang on. any ideas folks in case I am missing something?

[keiron99]

Regardless, peoples suggestions re this mat have not disappointment and is clearly a huge improvement from an old slip mat.



What "huge improvement" did you hear?

I had an achromat on my 1210 (with SME series 3 arm, Shure 97xe cart). It came with the deck when I purchased it recently. Out of interest, I swapped it for the felt mat on my other TT, and I could hear absolutely no difference. I tried replacing it with just another LP as support, again, no difference. So I bought a leather (nubuck) mat....you can guess the outcome.

I'm amazed to hear so many people claiming "huge" / "significant" / "not subtle" improvements. Does anyone else share my experiences?

There seems to be a lot of bad science behind the claims of some of the manufacturers too (I'd like Ben Goldacre to investigate!).

[RobbieGong]

What "huge improvement" did you hear?

I had an achromat on my 1210 (with SME series 3 arm, Shure 97xe cart). It came with the deck when I purchased it recently. Out of interest, I swapped it for the felt mat on my other TT, and I could hear absolutely no difference. I tried replacing it with just another LP as support, again, no difference. So I bought a leather (nubuck) mat....you can guess the outcome.

I'm amazed to hear so many people claiming "huge" / "significant" / "not subtle" improvements. Does anyone else share my experiences?

There seems to be a lot of bad science behind the claims of some of the manufacturers too (I'd like Ben Goldacre to investigate!).

Hi Keiron, Like a lot of things in hifi there are no absolutes. Some will swear by the Achromat in their set up, like me though there are others who wernt impressed. You're not alone in having an experience differing from popular consensus, that's the good thing about having a try for yourself and trusting your own lugs in your set up, regardless of what people swear by ;)

[Oldpinkman]

What "huge improvement" did you hear?

I had an achromat on my 1210 (with SME series 3 arm, Shure 97xe cart). It came with the deck when I purchased it recently. Out of interest, I swapped it for the felt mat on my other TT, and I could hear absolutely no difference. I tried replacing it with just another LP as support, again, no difference. So I bought a leather (nubuck) mat....you can guess the outcome.

I'm amazed to hear so many people claiming "huge" / "significant" / "not subtle" improvements. Does anyone else share my experiences?

There seems to be a lot of bad science behind the claims of some of the manufacturers too (I'd like Ben Goldacre to investigate!).
Ok. As an objector to bad science in mains cables and the like i will put up £100 cash to the charity of your choice I can tell a felt mat from an achromatic blind 10 out of 10 in a system of my choice. I have a feeling my Mrs could do it from the adjacent room. For that matter felt and rubber sound really different. You know what they say. If sex is a pain in the arse you're doing it wrong :cool:

[RobbieGong]

Ok. As an objector to bad science in mains cables and the like i will put up £100 cash to the charity of your choice I can tell a felt mat from an achromatic blind 10 out of 10 in a system of my choice. I have a feeling my Mrs could do it from the adjacent room. For that matter felt and rubber sound really different. You know what they say. If sex is a pain in the arse you're doing it wrong :cool:

To you yes, but in this case the op could not detect a difference between other materials including vinyl, but as he says, he clearly heard a difference with leather. Analysing as to the reasons could take a life time - that's hifi ;).

[Tolstoi]

I have the Achromat for the SL and it is definitely an improvement over the standard rubber mat, the Sound-Hifi mat (discontinued, I believe). The only criticism I have is, that when they offer an option like the adhesive tapes they should have also holes corresponding to those on the platter. You have to take off the platter once in a while and without those hole you're facing some problems. I wrote an email to them about that - well, just for fun without expecting any outcome :).

I drilled holes in my Achromat fitting the ones of the platter and glued the mat on the platter with UHU or Patex, can't remember. The outcome was very pleasing. I only regret that I didn't do that right from the beginning because if you remove the mat once you've used those adhesive tapes you can end up with damaging your mat.

[keiron99]

... but as he says, he clearly heard a difference with leather. Analysing as to the reasons could take a life time - that's hifi ;).

Actually....I DIDN'T hear a difference with leather either!

[keiron99]

i will put up £100 cash to the charity of your choice I can tell a felt mat from an achromatic blind 10 out of 10 in a system of my choice. I have a feeling my Mrs could do it from the adjacent room.

I'm sure you are being a bit tongue in cheek...people always bring their wives into the equation when discussing controversial topics in hifi!

I have never subjected my family to any of these tests until this morning. I asked my 13 year old daughter to see if she could identify the difference between felt, leather, and a vinyl LP as a mat. I used The Blue Nile 180g. She couldn't detect any difference at all.

I do find it odd. I am sure you are overstating the case as a joke but nevertheless, you are making the point that the difference is stark and blindingly obvious. Yet I hear bugger all.

I wonder whether there is an LP that both you and I own (mine is mostly Rush, Who, Floyd, Tull, Yes) and you can point me to a track that would be obviously different on one mat compared to another? (Alas I don't have the achromat to compare any more).

Are there any technical papers on the subject of mats? There's a lot of marketing guff on the manufacturers' websites which customers are all too willing to repeat on their behalf but naturally I don't believe a word of what they say (I'm in marketing myself.... :))

[Oldpinkman]

Hi Kieron
I was certainly being light-hearted rather than hostile, but I was responding to your "bad science" comment. I have a similar issue with mains leads. I can't hear it, and nobody has yet convinced me they can. There is still £100 for charity burning a hole in my pocket, if anyone can do a simple 10 from 10 blind demo that they can hear the difference between a designer kettle lead and a standard one. I can certainly do the mat demo blind - and know it because I have done it down at funk recently (not a 10 out of 10 - we only got to about 5)

The science is good and obvious. A cartridge produces music in the form of electric signals, by moving the stylus tip relative to the cartridge body. It doesn't mind whether that movement is caused by the grooves on a record, or vibrations in the arm or record itself. How those vibrations are handled affects the sound. The most obvious demo I had recently was blind auditioning Arthurs new Flamenca and F6 arm against a Rega RP6 - both with felt mats for consistency. In this case the difference was mainly the arm bearings. But, apart from very obvious audition, the difference was demonstrated by resting the stylus on a record which wasnt spinning at normal listening levels, and tapping the plinth with a screwdriver. There was much more noise through the RP6 than the Flamenca, which was very quickly damped.

I suspect, but havent tried, that if you did the same with 2 identical SL1200's one with a felt mat and one with an achromat you would hear a difference. But one can certainly hear it on audition of music

Track? - great Gig in the Sky DSOM. I confess, if I had been picking my tracks to safeguard my £100 I would probably have opted for Bach's Double Violin concerto, or Kate Melua's Ketovan album. I find it most obvious in "airiness" "apparant realness" midrange focus and space on acoustic type of material. I currently have only one TT in the house and that has an achromat glued down on it, but when I next play with some Techies I'll have a go with some Floyd (I have most of their albums). The bass will be a little fuller and "richer" with felt, but muddier and blurring the midband. The achromat should make you more aware of the tune the bass is playing, rather than just its thudding rythmn.

As for the Mrs. its a long story. A precis is that I am bugged by lack of bass in my system. Actually, I'm not, my mate from Holland is. So I've become hyper-sensitive to it. I have been messing with cartridges and now have a U205 with a go-faster stylus and racing stripes. I bought a pair of R700's cos I figured the issue was my delicate little ventricals. I had experimented with my modest Cambridge Audio active sub-woofer, which "warmed up" the sound and gave weight to the bass, but flattened the sound-stage into an 18inch wide band running between the tops of the speakers. So, the other night, whilst Sue was in another room marking school work on the PC, the other side of the wall that the speakers are nearly against, in a room separated by a hall and 2 doors (ajar), I listened on the Kef's, then brought in the Ventricals and compared on those, and was absolutely stunned with the very surprising result I got (more on another thread). Kefs more bass (a bit) but lost stacks of mid-band detail and soundstage, and sounded vacuum packed by comparison. My Ventricals sounded like the ESL63's I remembered them sounding like all those years ago.

Anyway - checking to see if it was the record player lacking bass, I played the same Katie Melua track on the "free" CD inside the album, and then on vinyl. Same story all over again. A bit richer and fuller in the bass on the CD, but OMG the vinyl was HUGE by comparison, and so much clearer and more natural in the vocals and acoustic instruments and cymbals. I went to hoick Sue in to show her my revalation about the speakers and before I spoke a word she said "I can hear in here - the last one was much better - what did you change?" I didnt tell her, and asked her to describe the difference, and except for not commenting about the bass, her description was pretty much spot on. I kid you not!

Not sure about technical papers - I'll check next time I'm down at Funk. But just hold a mat up against a wall and talk to it , and you will hear felt sound different from hard rubber. If its doing that with acoustic energy its doing it with all the other stuff

I know your cartridge fairly well - and it should be fine in that arm. Maybe its just "what you notice" and the differences are more apparant to me listening to acoustic rather than "wall of sound" material, and focussing on female vocals and the like. Certainly I am aware that I focus very much on that area. I suspect that I would hear the same things, and give the same priority, as everyone on the forum with Quad electrostatic speakers, and we would "forgive" and "pay less attention" to other factors which matter to others, like power of bass, and perhaps rythmic factors in music. Pity you are so far away or I would pop round and dem.

:cool:

[oxela23]

[QUOTE=keiron99;528401]What "huge improvement" did you hear?

Hi Keiron99,

I should first point out that when I said 'huge improvement' I was relating to a few positives -and accept 'huge' could be deemed slightly exaggerative. Firstly I seemed to have real issue with static and changing to the achromat seems to have reduced this issue (I'm guessing is not as 'chargeable' a material as felt although I have no expertise just my observation when lifting records off).

Secondly, I also I found that the TT was more at risk of a little frequency wobble (wow and flutter I think they call it) when played at high volumes and the achromat seems to have reduced this - based on turning sound up and prancing about the room (not very technical I know). I am assuming the achromat his helping reduced resonance feeding back up through the platter but have no measurements or means to confirm - again just observations. And lastly I find the base a little more controlled and less muddy - which may actually be a result the second point (reduced wobble) - but happy nonetheless when listening tracks. I should add I only listen to vinyl and the majority afro style Jazz - with strong base polyrhythms.

Like you Keiron99 I have not been quick to accept everything in hifi and had good fun with a mate trying to 'blind test' some of the things we've stated to each other are ‘improvements’. So there you have it - these are just some of my observations (visual and audible)......but subjective nonetheless.


Good luck on your quest for objectivity.

Alex