View Full Version : Denon 103 fun...
I picked up a nice and little used 103SA off ebay recently, its in great condition and looking like new. Having heard Marco’s SA a few years back I wanted to hear how one would sound like in my system against the re-bodied 103R I currently use.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/stylus/DSCF7271.jpg
Some recent tweaks to the 103R alignment and support for my PL-71 have lifted the sound quality nicely so I presumed the SA was going to have a tough time beating it. I mounted the SA on its own Sumiko headshell to enable quick cartridge swaps and I also made up a spacer to get the VTA similar to the 103R with its wood body,
Well, I’m impressed! The characteristics I noted listening to Marco’s where all there, an even balance and detailed presentation without ever being harsh or coarse what I was not prepared for was just how much more detail the SA could retrieve and how refined it was in comparison to my R. Going back to the R highlighted a slight tendency to be a bit coarse in the midrange and treble with a slight loss of resolution and clarity. Switching back again to the SA was like a sense of ‘relief’ and calm as everything became smoother and more detailed with better insight and tonal accuracy.
This is quite an improvement, the VTA is not exactly the same, The SA sits down at the back slightly more but I don’t think the difference is large enough to be the determining factor between the two.
I also picked up at the same time a 103D, I’ve never heard this version and they are long out of production. Unfortunately the one I received has seen better days, the cantilever is off centre and the stylus worn so its currently on its way for a rebuild. It will be intriguing to compare all three…
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/stylus/DSCF7275.jpg
Nice one, Neal - that 'SA' you've scored looks like a cracker! I'm on record as stating that the 'SA' is, far and away, the best sounding DL-103 produced, so I'm not surprised at the results you're getting.
The magic you're hearing lies in the glass-fibre bodyshell, as the 103SA is simply a 'nuded' 103R, fitted inside said bodyshell!
Anyway, enjoy - it's a superb cartridge :)
Marco.
I picked up a nice and little used 103SA off ebay recently, its in great condition and looking like new. Having heard Marco’s SA a few years back I wanted to hear how one would sound like in my system against the re-bodied 103R I currently use.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/stylus/DSCF7271.jpg
Some recent tweaks to the 103R alignment and support for my PL-71 have lifted the sound quality nicely so I presumed the SA was going to have a tough time beating it. I mounted the SA on its own Sumiko headshell to enable quick cartridge swaps and I also made up a spacer to get the VTA similar to the 103R with its wood body,
Well, I’m impressed! The characteristics I noted listening to Marco’s where all there, an even balance and detailed presentation without ever being harsh or coarse what I was not prepared for was just how much more detail the SA could retrieve and how refined it was in comparison to my R. Going back to the R highlighted a slight tendency to be a bit coarse in the midrange and treble with a slight loss of resolution and clarity. Switching back again to the SA was like a sense of ‘relief’ and calm as everything became smoother and more detailed with better insight and tonal accuracy.
This is quite an improvement, the VTA is not exactly the same, The SA sits down at the back slightly more but I don’t think the difference is large enough to be the determining factor between the two.
I also picked up at the same time a 103D, I’ve never heard this version and they are long out of production. Unfortunately the one I received has seen better days, the cantilever is off centre and the stylus worn so its currently on its way for a rebuild. It will be intriguing to compare all three…
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/stylus/DSCF7275.jpg
Is that the standard cantilever on there, looks slightly like the ESCO paratrace though l may be incorrect.
Thanks Marco, listening a bit more this evening I think you are right. It will be interesting to hear the D when I get it back, although it won't be like an original D due to the extent of the rebuild...
Is that the standard cantilever on there, looks slightly like the ESCO paratrace though l may be incorrect.
On which one Andy? The SA has a conical stylus, I checked it ;)
Yes, the SA, just looked like the ESCO Cantilever, any road enjoy.:cool:
Yes, the SA, just looked like the ESCO Cantilever, any road enjoy.:cool:
Cheers! Its the lighting probably.
I've been playing with the 103R and tried the nylon washer (not sure what thread it was on) under the headshell tweak, this has brought the performance up a touch but its still not as good as the SA. Not sure if its the use of the washer or the fact its altered the VTA to match the SA but its an interesting tweak and simple to try.
Tiff_Needle
08-02-2014, 01:11
Can I ask how much you paid for the SA? I'm looking for one myself as well... And would like to know what is the reference price used.
Does anyone know if it's easy to retipp the SA, and if so where would I do it in Europe?
Tiff_Needle
08-02-2014, 01:16
I ask because I've spotted one but it has a bended cantilever... And I don't know if it's worth buying...
Mine is mint and cost £375 which I thought was a good price. I've seen the SA you are talking about....my D is off to be rebuilt and many places will not be able to repair it exactly as original...IE the cantilever will probably be OK, straight aluminum tube but the stylus will be replaced with a more advanced fine line version.
If you can get the broken one at a good low price then its worth it IMHO...
Tiff_Needle
08-02-2014, 15:36
How I'd wish I had found an SA like yours...
Any of you know where could I sent the cart for refurbishment? In Europe that is...
ninedecks
08-02-2014, 15:47
How I'd wish I had found an SA like yours...
Any of you know where could I sent the cart for refurbishment? In Europe that is...
You could try this guy, apparently quite good:)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?11829-Cartridge-repairs-by-Northwest-Analogue
Yeah, Dom would sort it no problem, Jonathan - in fact, he could also make it rather better than it ever was, while he was there... ;)
Marco.
I would recommend you send it to Goldring TBH, they will replace the cantilever with the same type aluminum but will fit a fine line stylus, not the same conical unfortunately but that may be a positive!
Tiff_Needle
08-02-2014, 17:27
Pardon my ignorance, but changing from a canonical tip to a fine line stylus wouldn't change the sound character completely? And wouldn't that impose a problem taking into account that I got a AT LH18/OCC head that weights 18g, and that would be used with a Jelco 750D. This type of pressure is Recomended even if not with a canonical tip?
Pardon for so many questions but I'm quite new to vinyl... As an owner tweaking is TT. Only had experience playing vinyl on a setups made by others...
Why not give one of our traders the business instead, Neal?
Dom can do the job just as well as Goldring, if not better... Furthermore, while he's at it (if Jonathan wanted), he could fit a more upmarket (say, boron) cantilever, which I suspect would create something rather special!
Having heard the results, first hand, and making relevant comparisons, upgrading the cantilever of a cartridge makes a MUCH bigger difference than upgrading the type of stylus used.
:trust:
Marco.
Pardon my ignorance, but changing from a canonical tip to a fine line stylus wouldn't change the sound character completely? And wouldn't that impose a problem taking into account that I got a AT LH18/OCC head that weights 18g, and that would be used with a Jelco 750D. This type of pressure is Recomended even if not with a canonical tip?
Hi Jonathan,
The answer to your first question is 'yes', but not completely. It would improve certain areas, but also bring a different 'signature' of its own. Unfortunately in hi-fi there is no 'free lunch'. Personally, I wouldn't fit a fine-line stylus to an SA, as it will have the tendency to make it a little 'hi-fi' sounding.
Upgrading the cantilever, however, (since it's broken anyway) whilst retaining the (very high quality) conical tip, IMO, would produce a more worthwhile result, although before considering that, if you go for the second-hand SA, you should have its original cantilever fixed (replaced, like for like), in order to know what the cartridge should sound like as standard. You need to obtain a known reference point before considering any fundamental upgrades to the cartridge.
The SA will not be too heavy for your AT headshell (or vice versa), but you'll have to watch how it balances out on your arm, where a heavier than usual counterweight balance may be needed for the job.
Marco.
Tiff_Needle
08-02-2014, 18:13
Hi Marco,
I also feel that I should stick with the original canonical stylus... As you know from previous posts I'm avoiding a to much hifi sound as my system is already on the hifi side of things and I'm looking for something that brings a little more "wood" and "wine" to the table.
My fear is that this cart might have the stylus a bit weared... And I've been told that it's not possible to change the stylus to an equal canonical tip like the original specs.
That would mean not having the SA in its "original" sound character for long...
That's why I'm hesitating a bit on buying the cart that I saw...
Hum... New counterweight needed... Ouch... Haven't used the arm yet and have already to change something... Bollocks... What would you recommend for counterweight ?
We should switch this conversation to my thread as this is a little of topic on this thread...
If you think that the stylus on the SA you're looking at is in some way suspect (the better sellers of cartridges usually show pictures of the tip, produced from a microscope, in order to indicate condition), then I'd leave it alone.
The biggest consideration for any stylus is the quality of the diamond itself, and how it has been polished; ultimately that matters much more than its profile. Therefore, if the original diamonds Denon were using for the tips on SAs cannot be obtained, then you will never get the cartridge to sound as it should.
I don't think you'll have to worry about the counterweight balance if you don't go for the (heavier) SA. Was it the Jelco SA-750 you bought (sorry, I've forgotten)? If so, you could simply go for the heavier Jelco counterweight balance, which is available from all Jelco stockists, such as here: http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=168&osCsid=d85d545c172045db0040ab734aad65d5
TBH, I'd get one anyway, as most 103s are likely to sound better with it, plus it'll give you more flexibility, in terms of balancing out different combinations of cartridges and headshells.
Marco.
Martyn Miles
08-02-2014, 19:44
Pardon my ignorance, but changing from a canonical tip to a fine line stylus wouldn't change the sound character completely? And wouldn't that impose a problem taking into account that I got a AT LH18/OCC head that weights 18g, and that would be used with a Jelco 750D. This type of pressure is Recomended even if not with a canonical tip?
Pardon for so many questions but I'm quite new to vinyl... As an owner tweaking is TT. Only had experience playing vinyl on a setups made by others...
'A canonical tip' sounds like a pickup cartridge a C of E Canon might recommend...
Just curious: have any of those recommending NOT to retip the Denon with a line contact stylus actually ever had any experience with one that has been done?
I've used the 103R pretty much exclusively over the past 6 years or so. I've listened to it stock, in 3 different bodies (ebony, clavellin and aluminum) and with two different line contact styli on ruby cantilevers: Soundsmith's $250 line contact and most recently their $350 OCL stylus, which I would guess might approximate the Paratrace stylus from Expert Stylus.
How anyone would NOT recommend switching the the line contact styli is really beyond me. They simply retrieve a plethora of information that the conical stylus completely and utterly misses, as well as adding significant refinement to much of the information it does not, notably in the high frequencies.
Dumping the conical (and the body on the stock 103/103R's) is a no brainer. The cartridge will retain it's overall character and simply do everything better.
You can reduce tracking force with a good line contact stylus on the 103/103R but not significantly in my experience. I tracked the conical at 2.6; I can track the line contact versions at around 2.425 to 2.45.
Once you've run a 103 or 103R with a line contact, you will never go back to the conical.
Why not give one of our traders the business instead, Neal?
:) Because I'm recommending Goldring Marco or is it now verboten to recommend non forum traders?
Dom can do the job just as well as Goldring, if not better... Furthermore, while he's at it (if Jonathan wanted), he could fit a more upmarket (say, boron) cantilever, which I suspect would create something rather special!
Having heard the results, first hand, and making relevant comparisons, upgrading the cantilever of a cartridge makes a MUCH bigger difference than upgrading the type of stylus used.
:trust:
Marco.
My first recommendation would have been ESCO having used them before but you say goodbye to your cartridge for 6 months...I'm sure Dom would do a fantastic job, I had a very pleasant and informative chat with Natalie over my 103D but I would have to wait at least 3 months and, as I've said on the forum before, I look to preserve as much of the original character as possible if sending a cartridge away for rework and that would not have happened in the case of my 103D plus IMHO I would be paying for modifications I don't want.
Goldring could not only meet what I was looking for in a rebuild but also offer one at a stunningly competitive price, not only that they called me to discuss my requirements in full to make sure I was happy and indicated my cartridge would be back with me in under two weeks. Factor in they are an approved and trained repair center for Denon and other makes made it a no brainer for me. Hence the recommendation. Oh, if I had wanted a boron cantilever they could have done that for me as well. :)
Pardon my ignorance, but changing from a canonical tip to a fine line stylus wouldn't change the sound character completely? And wouldn't that impose a problem taking into account that I got a AT LH18/OCC head that weights 18g, and that would be used with a Jelco 750D. This type of pressure is Recomended even if not with a canonical tip?
Pardon for so many questions but I'm quite new to vinyl... As an owner tweaking is TT. Only had experience playing vinyl on a setups made by others...
Hi Jonathan, yes it would, trying to retain the original characteristics is an issue when facing a rebuild...if you are setting out with the intention of radically changing the presentation then IMHO you may as well look for an alternative cartridge and start from there.
Just curious: have any of those recommending NOT to retip the Denon with a line contact stylus actually ever had any experience with one that has been done?
I've not found anyone yet willing to use a conical!
I've used the 103R pretty much exclusively over the past 6 years or so. I've listened to it stock, in 3 different bodies (ebony, clavellin and aluminum) and with two different line contact styli on ruby cantilevers: Soundsmith's $250 line contact and most recently their $350 OCL stylus, which I would guess might approximate the Paratrace stylus from Expert Stylus.
How anyone would NOT recommend switching the the line contact styli is really beyond me. They simply retrieve a plethora of information that the conical stylus completely and utterly misses, as well as adding significant refinement to much of the information it does not, notably in the high frequencies.
Dumping the conical (and the body on the stock 103/103R's) is a no brainer. The cartridge will retain it's overall character and simply do everything better.
You can reduce tracking force with a good line contact stylus on the 103/103R but not significantly in my experience. I tracked the conical at 2.6; I can track the line contact versions at around 2.425 to 2.45.
Once you've run a 103 or 103R with a line contact, you will never go back to the conical.
I don't think a reduction in tracking force from 2.6 to 2.45 is much to worry about IMHO ;) However, as I said in my last post maybe you want to retain the character and possibly the originality of the cartridge...again its only my opinion but if I want a different presentation I would buy a different cartridge, just sayin' :)
Just curious: have any of those recommending NOT to retip the Denon with a line contact stylus actually ever had any experience with one that has been done?
I've used the 103R pretty much exclusively over the past 6 years or so. I've listened to it stock, in 3 different bodies (ebony, clavellin and aluminum) and with two different line contact styli on ruby cantilevers: Soundsmith's $250 line contact and most recently their $350 OCL stylus, which I would guess might approximate the Paratrace stylus from Expert Stylus.
How anyone would NOT recommend switching the the line contact styli is really beyond me. They simply retrieve a plethora of information that the conical stylus completely and utterly misses, as well as adding significant refinement to much of the information it does not, notably in the high frequencies.
Dumping the conical (and the body on the stock 103/103R's) is a no brainer. The cartridge will retain it's overall character and simply do everything better.
You can reduce tracking force with a good line contact stylus on the 103/103R but not significantly in my experience. I tracked the conical at 2.6; I can track the line contact versions at around 2.425 to 2.45.
Once you've run a 103 or 103R with a line contact, you will never go back to the conical.
Hi Blake,
Whilst I agree with 99% of what your experience has shown (my experience is similar), you cannot get away from the fact that different stylus profiles impart their 'sonic signature' onto the music, due to the nature of the physical contact they make with the record, and one can hear that effect, regardless of the fundamental sonic superiority in certain areas of some specific types of profiles. I have heard this effect with both 103s (as in the last 30+ years I've owned and/or heard pretty much every commercial version of the DL-103 that exists) and SPUs.
I'll use the current SPU range as an example, as the cartridges are still being produced. I've slowly upgraded from the basic 'Classic' GM model, which uses a conical tip, through the 'Classic GM' (E) elliptical-tipped version, and finally ending up with the top of the range 'Royal GM MKII', which uses arguably the finest stylus type known to man, Ortofon's own 'Replicant', which is basically a version of the Fritz Gyger 'S'. The Royal is otherwise identical to the entry-level SPU.
Does it (overall) sound better than the basic 'Classic GM'? Too right it does! However, is it superior in every way to a 'Classic GM', with its conical tip? No. There are certain areas of sound reproduction where the entry-level model excels over that achieved by the Royal, and I can go into that if you wish, but the balance of compromises I've chosen favour the Royal, as in the final analysis, it gets more aspects of the music more fundamentally right than its 'lesser' counterpart.
The *exact* same thing applies with Denon cartridges, as I could relate similar experiences from experimenting within the range of 103s (sadly now discontinued) which varied according to stylus type - and despite the models featuring 'posher' tips, excelling at the hi-fi aspects of music reproduction, there's still something very 'right' and addictive sounding (with the right music) about a conical-tipped 103, especially once the stock (horribly resonant) plastic shell is removed, which in reality is a much bigger hindrance than anything else about the iconic and seemingly timeless DL-103.
Marco.
Because I'm recommending Goldring Marco or is it now verboten to recommend non forum traders?
My first recommendation would have been ESCO having used them before but you say goodbye to your cartridge for 6 months...I'm sure Dom would do a fantastic job, I had a very pleasant and informative chat with Natalie over my 103D but I would have to wait at least 3 months and, as I've said on the forum before, I look to preserve as much of the original character as possible if sending a cartridge away for rework and that would not have happened in the case of my 103D plus IMHO I would be paying for modifications I don't want.
Goldring could not only meet what I was looking for in a rebuild but also offer one at a stunningly competitive price, not only that they called me to discuss my requirements in full to make sure I was happy and indicated my cartridge would be back with me in under two weeks. Factor in they are an approved and trained repair center for Denon and other makes made it a no brainer for me. Hence the recommendation. Oh, if I had wanted a boron cantilever they could have done that for me as well.
Cool - no worries, and I completely understand. It was simply that without the (now added) rationale, there didn't seem to be a good reason not to use Dom. I'm sure you appreciate that we like to support those who support us, as much as possible (whether it be traders or ordinary members). It's all part of the AoS community spirit! :)
Marco.
Hi Blake,
Whilst I agree with 99% of what your experience has shown (my experience is similar), you cannot get away from the fact that different stylus profiles impart their 'sonic signature' onto the music, due to the nature of the physical contact they make with the record, and one can hear that effect, regardless of the fundamental sonic superiority in certain areas of some specific types of profiles. I have heard this effect with both 103s (as in the last 30+ years I've owned and/or heard pretty much every commercial version of the DL-103 that exists) and SPUs.
I'll use the current SPU range as an example, as the cartridges are still being produced. I've slowly upgraded from the basic 'Classic' GM model, which uses a conical tip, through the 'Classic GM' (E) elliptical-tipped version, and finally ending up with the top of the range 'Royal GM MKII', which uses arguably the finest stylus type known to man, Ortofon's own 'Replicant', which is basically a version of the Fritz Gyger 'S'. The Royal is otherwise identical to the entry-level SPU.
Does it (overall) sound better than the basic 'Classic GM'? Too right it does! However, is it superior in every way to a 'Classic GM', with its conical tip? No. There are certain areas of sound reproduction where the entry-level model excels over that achieved by the Royal, and I can go into that if you wish, but the balance of compromises I've chosen favour the Royal, as in the final analysis, it gets more aspects of the music more fundamentally right than its 'lesser' counterpart.
The *exact* same thing applies with Denon cartridges, as I could relate similar experiences from experimenting within the range of 103s (sadly now discontinued) which varied according to stylus type - and despite the models featuring 'posher' tips, excelling at the hi-fi aspects of music reproduction, there's still something very 'right' and addictive sounding (with the right music) about a conical-tipped 103, especially once the stock (horribly resonant) plastic shell is removed, which in reality is a much bigger hindrance than anything else about the iconic and seemingly timeless DL-103.
Marco.
Is there a perfect cartridge for every record? Perhaps not-I agree with you there. I have a friend that has 3 tables with 6 different arms and cartridges for that reason :) but for us mere mortals or those that simply don't wish to go to that kind of trouble, having one cartridge is certainly a much more simple option.
And in that case, I'd find it pretty much impossible to recommend to someone that, if they are going to the trouble of retipping a 103 or 103R, that they retip it with another conical stylus.
Based on changing both bodies and styli independently of one another on exactly the same cartridge, I'd also say that, in the end, the stylus is as much of a "hindrance" as the body on the stock cartridge. Changing one or the other dramatically improves performance; changing both, in my experience, gives you something much more special.
I can appreciate your comparison of the GM and GM (E) as it would appear that they are indeed identical with the exception of the stylus. With the Royal, though, it appears that the coils are gold plated silver as opposed to OFC copper in the GM's. If that is indeed the case, there's a strong possibility that would account for pretty different sonics as well (at least based on my limited experience with silver and copper).
In any event, it's a subjective hobby and we all have to choose our poison. The only caveat that I would add for someone considering a retip on the 103/103R would be that adjustable azimuth is pretty much a must for anyone considering the really extreme stylus profiles like Expert's Paratrace or Soundsmith's OCL. If you don't have adjustable azimuth (and VTA/SRA but that pretty much goes without saying), I'd be inclined to stick with a less exotic profile line contact.
walpurgis
08-02-2014, 23:08
Is there a perfect cartridge for every record?
Surely a good cartridge will play any choice of music properly. The same principle would apply to any piece of equipment, you don't go changing amps and speakers according to whether you're listening to simple chamber music then heavy rock.
Cool - no worries, and I completely understand. It was simply that without the (now added) rationale, there didn't seem to be a good reason not to use Dom. I'm sure you appreciate that we like to support those who support us, as much as possible (whether it be traders or ordinary members). It's all part of the AoS community spirit! :)
Marco.
Yep, fully understand Marco and I wish Dom and Natalie the very best, their business seems to be taking off! http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.png
Surely a good cartridge will play any choice of music properly. The same principle would apply to any piece of equipment, you don't go changing amps and speakers according to whether you're listening to simple chamber music then heavy rock.
My comment was really in response to Marco's with respect to the conical sounding right (or best) with "the right music" as he put it. While I don't totally disagree with you in terms of a good cartridge playing music "properly", there is unquestionably something to be said for having the ability in one's system, particularly if it is extremely resolving or revealing, to tailor the sound with a cartridge, or even a cartridge/arm/preamp combination, particularly with less than stellar recordings.
The friend's system that I mentioned above is a very good example of this, but it comes at a very high price, both in terms of components and the actual room itself (most of us do not have 800-1,000+ sq. ft. listening rooms). And I can assure you it is not because of any general weakness in the downstream components.
Most of us, however, do not really live in, or even aspire to live in, that world.
Hi Blake,
Is there a perfect cartridge for every record? Perhaps not-I agree with you there. I have a friend that has 3 tables with 6 different arms and cartridges for that reason :) but for us mere mortals or those that simply don't wish to go to that kind of trouble, having one cartridge is certainly a much more simple option.
I agree, but that's not really what I meant, as we were specifically talking about DL-103s and conical tips. What I'm saying is that there are sonic advantages to be gained by using a conical-tipped 103, over one with a 'posher stylus', when playing certain types of music, and so upgrading to the latter (from the former) is not a universal no-brainer.
For example, if I'm playing 12" singles of my favourite 80s pop music, then nothing cuts it the same as my stock DL-103, as it just seems to 'let go' and 'boogie' more with that type of music, injecting a 'fun-factor' into the presentation in the process, which eludes more expensive cartridges with fancier tips that tend to 'over-finesse' everything and dilute that addictive 'booginess'.
It's a difficult thing to put into words, but it's something that I could easily demonstrate to you, and so the fact is, it's not always musically advantageous having a cartridge with a fine-line stylus, which is coincidentally (like your friend) why I own more than one type of cartridge :)
Based on changing both bodies and styli independently of one another on exactly the same cartridge, I'd also say that, in the end, the stylus is as much of a "hindrance" as the body on the stock cartridge. Changing one or the other dramatically improves performance; changing both, in my experience, gives you something much more special.
I agree with the latter, but experience tells me that, ultimately, it is the highly resonant plastic shell of the stock DL-103 that holds its performance back the most, not the conical stylus. Given the choice between a re-tipped 103 (with a fine-line stylus), which still retains its stock plastic shell, and one which has been nuded and put inside something like a UWE wooden-bodied shell, but retains the conical stylus, I'd take the latter every time!
I'd do that because, provided that the conical-tipped 103 in question was used in a suitable arm and turntable, and through the right type of phono stage and/or SUT, and expertly set-up, my ears tell me that, ultimately, the plastic shell ruins the music more than the stylus - again provided that the music you're playing doesn't require more finesse than 'grunt'. Basically, it boils down again to choosing your compromises.
Denon also appear to agree, in terms of the significance of the shell used for their 103s, as not only was their special limited edition model the 'SA' treated to an upgraded one (and the conical stylus of the original 103 retained), but also their current 100th anniversary model, the DL-A100, see here: http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=anniversarycollection&subid=0&productid=dla100 which features a clear-type shell of superior construction, and that yet again retains the original spherical tip. Clearly, Denon feel that on their 'statement' designs for the 103, a posh shell is of more significance than a posh stylus ;)
I do agree though that, overall, the biggest gains to be had with a DL-103 are when both the shell and stylus are upgraded for something that more befits the quality of the superb generator and Alnico magnet assembly.
I can appreciate your comparison of the GM and GM (E) as it would appear that they are indeed identical with the exception of the stylus. With the Royal, though, it appears that the coils are gold plated silver as opposed to OFC copper in the GM's. If that is indeed the case, there's a strong possibility that would account for pretty different sonics as well (at least based on my limited experience with silver and copper).
The coils in the Royal GM MKII are made from something Ortofon call 'Electrum', which consists of a gold and silver alloy, so I'm sure that makes a difference, as indeed does its superb Replicant stylus. However, that doesn't stop the Royal being 'out-boogied', with pop music, by its lesser, conical-tipped counterpart (the Classic GM) - so again there are no absolutes! :eyebrows:
The only caveat that I would add for someone considering a retip on the 103/103R would be that adjustable azimuth is pretty much a must for anyone considering the really extreme stylus profiles like Expert's Paratrace or Soundsmith's OCL. If you don't have adjustable azimuth (and VTA/SRA but that pretty much goes without saying), I'd be inclined to stick with a less exotic profile line contact.
You're absolutely spot on, and I would also include the Replicant-tipped SPU Royal in that category, which is said to be the nearest to the profile of the cutter head. Having for years been used to the rather 'forgiving' nature of spherical tips, the sophisticated fine-line based stylus profile of the Royal took some getting used to, as it ruthlessly reveals ANY set-up deficiencies, and so if your VTA or azimuth is out by even a millimetre, you can instantly hear the deleterious effect of the distortion introduced!
Consequently, like you say, I wouldn't recommend anyone buying a cartridge with such an 'extreme profile' stylus unless they have similarly 'extreme patience' and the wherewithal to optimise the demands of such a stylus. However, the effort required to get it right pays off BIG TIME, as with the SPU Royal, you're rewarded with some of the most realistic and beautiful sounds possible from vinyl replay.
Marco.
No further thoughts on this, Blake? :)
Marco.
No further thoughts on this, Blake? :)
Marco.
As I said Marco, having played the bulk of my collection with both the stock conical and two different line contact styli on exactly the same 103R's over the past 6-7 years, there aren't many that I'd choose to play with the conical (or with the original Denon body for that matter). Come to think of it, I can't think of any :).
As to Denon focusing more on body than stylus/cantilever with variants in the 103 series I'd chalk that more up to marketing, and more recently, profit and selling to a price point. While the SA is by all accounts a pretty good effort, there was a certain amount of bling/collector appeal with it in terms of its packaging, etc. But I don't really have any doubts that it would be considerably better than stock, which is not the case with the A100 which is really just a 103 in a see through body.
I don't perceive the A100 to be any kind of a statement piece any more than I perceive the Denon anniversary table released at the same time to be one (lots of negative info on that one particularly online). Reviews of the A100 were subtly positive at best and, in the end they (like the table) were being dumped by retailers at around 50 cents on the MSRP dollar for only marginally more than the stock 103.
The SA, as you know, was also a very limited run. I think Denon knows their market for the 103 series, at least in terms of what will sell and at what price point. And the additional cost of doing a higher quality cantilever stylus would simply push the cartridge into a price territory that would not really be profitable. Simply put, doing the body & the stylus would drive the price into a range in which the new cartridge would not be economically viable.
I'd also note that, among many 103 "aficionados", the 103D is held in very high (perhaps highest) regard and is probably the discontinued 103 variant that would currently appear to be most sought after in the "discontinued" 103 lineup. With its higher compliance it is clearly a bit of a different animal than stock 103/103R's but pretty much all with experience with that cartridge commented on the superiorty of its more sophisticated stylus profile.
My "progression" with modifying the 103R went: stock, rebodied, rebodied and retipped. I listened to each version for well over 18 months to form my opinion on what both the body change and the cantilever/stylus change bring to the table and they are both considerable IMO.
Both my aluminum and ebony bodied 103R's (even with their line contact styli!) have all the grunt, dynamic drive and coherence, if not more, than the stock version of the cartridge, along with a level of refinement that the stock cartridge simply cannot approach. The Denon conical (as good as it is in conical terms, and that is very good, about as good as it gets for that stylus profile) simply misses too much information.
Those are my thoughts. So while we agree I suppose on many things, we'll have to agree to disagree on the stylus. :)
Aha! My 103D has returned to me...looking forward to getting this setup. New cantilever, fine line stylus, suspension and rewind! lets hope the work was worth it. Visually it looks spot on, no pics yet, the cantilever is now parallel and the new stylus looks to be perfectly mounted on the cantilever. Lets hope it sounds good!
The 103D is a very fine cart, soundwise it is similar in character to the Denon DL-S1. The 103D is a higher complaince cart then the 103, I'm not sure of the mass of the arm on your PL-71, but the 103D runs very nicely with 12g.
Another 103 variant that will knock your socks off is the 103S...elliptical stylus again, a little lower complaince then the 103D, beautiful sparkling highs.
One of these days I think I'll start a 103 collection...and most certainly get divorced.
Rick.
there are too many to try! :)
anubisgrau
28-02-2014, 23:34
if you think a conical stylus 103 is the right thing for 80s 12", than you should really hear them played with a humble stanton 500. no need to go MC and introduce any of the usual SUT difficulties into the equation where a major part consists of such releases.
The 103D is a very fine cart, soundwise it is similar in character to the Denon DL-S1. The 103D is a higher complaince cart then the 103, I'm not sure of the mass of the arm on your PL-71, but the 103D runs very nicely with 12g.
Another 103 variant that will knock your socks off is the 103S...elliptical stylus again, a little lower complaince then the 103D, beautiful sparkling highs.
One of these days I think I'll start a 103 collection...and most certainly get divorced.
Rick.
I thought the 103S was fitted with the Shibata stylus. Designed for CD-4 quadraphonic replay, most reviews at the time found the treble to be dominant and too sharp.
I can't say that I've ever heard that before, but who knows, perhaps!
Below is from the Denon museum...
Power generation method: Moving coil type
出力電圧：0.3mV（1KHz-50mm/sec水平方向） Output voltage: 0.3mV (1KHz-50mm/sec horizontal direction)
周波数特性：20～60,000Hz Frequency characteristic: 20 ~ 60,000 Hz
セパレーション：25dB以上（1KHz）、15dB以上(30KHz) Separation: 25dB or more (1KHz), 15dB or more (30KHz)
電気インピーダンス：40Ω±20% Electrical impedance: 40Ω ± 20%
コンプライアンス：8×10-6cm/dyne（100Hz）、25×10-6cm/dyne（Static） Compliance: 8 × 10-6cm/dyne (100Hz), 25 × 10-6cm/dyne (Static)
針先：特殊楕円形ソリッドダイヤモンド Needle tip: special oval solid diamond
針圧：1.8gr±0.3gr Needle pressure: 1.8gr ± 0.3gr
自重：7.8gr Own weight: 7.8gr
Here's some good info....
http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~audio-music/denon_ca.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddenon%2Bdl-103s%26start%3D40%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D56 3
What I do know is that my own experience with the cart has been very favourable, it always seemed a good step up from the standard version 103 providing an extended and pleasing top end.
The description of the stylus of the 103S as "special elliptical" doesn't really tell us much. My assumption that it was a Shibata was based on what I read in the UK audio press at the time, as was their comments on the SQ.
If you find the 103S works well for you, then that is all that matters. What arm do you run it in? I seem to remember the review was of a 103S fitted into a Grace 707 arm, which might not have been suitable.
Regards
VE have it down as "0.15mm special elliptical"
Hmmm, first impressions of my rebuilt 103D are positive. I've put a few hours on it now, at first I felt the upper mid was a little pushed forward and over bright but either I've got used to it or its starting to calm down. I can best describe it as a detailed, smooth & refined version of a 103R, its very good. I have to be slightly careful as I have it mounted on a GH242 with a Lenco GL-99 spinning the black stuff as its not suited to the PL-71 arm, it might work on the KD-550 with a light weight head-shell though.
The 103 signature is there but the insight is so much better, its really good. It tracks superbly at 1.8g a little above the normal 1.5g and surface noise seems to be lower. Superb work IMHO from Goldring, quick turnaround and competitive price...I wonder what the SA would sound like with the same stylus... :hmm:
"I wonder what the SA would sound like with the same stylus..."
There's only one way to find out!!
Well, yes! :D I've spent far too much on cartridges recently so it would have to wait plus I have another TT on the way :doh: If it proves to be as good as I hope then I'll have to have more of a clear out.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.