View Full Version : Attractions of a good CDP V's Stand alone DAC
I've been wondering for a while why people have been ditching their CDPs in favour of DAC-rolling. Few people I come across in the hifi world have bought a DAC and kept it for longer than a year or two at most. The quest for ever higher resolution and flexibility sees people treat DACs a little like disposable bits of electronic hardware a little like upgrading a PC to the next best thing every year or two. It's sort of made it into a very large disposable sector and most DACs are treated like cartridges....kept for a while until the next flavour of the month turns up when they're chopped in. This raises two interesting (at least for me) observations:
Firstly, there's the environmental cost of this constant race. Answers on a postcard, but it is a valid point (most get recycled on the used market but eventually must be dumpedrecycled like most other stuff. The difference is that it creates a larger than life market for new stuff although this can be levelled at other areas too; it is an industry after all )
Secondly, it puzzles me that more people aren't buying CDPs with the flexibility of a stand alone DAC as that way, all formats can be enjoyed. After all, to legally hang onto ripped tunes from CD, the CD itself has to be kept in ownership.
Most decent CDPs will have several digital inputs (Optical, S/PDIF, some even have USB) and outputs and be equipped with the latest must-have 24-bit DAC chipsets.
Is it just then a question of fashion and space requirements? The only reason I can see is where someone starting a system from scratch obtains all music from downloads and wants the convenience of full remote access and storage of a music library. Be interesting to get the thoughts of those who've taken a concious decision to go this route, and whether they have any regrets at all?
dave2010
06-02-2014, 11:52
Reminds me a bit of the time when I used to buy a new PU cartridge most years, or at least it felt like it. I still have some of them. Some were clearly improvements on their predecessors, and some were just different. Mostly they were cheaper than buying a complete turntable set up frequently, though.
For me the attraction of a DAC is the lack of moving parts and the flexibility. I like being able to use a CD transport without worry that if it breaks, then the whole unit needs fixing. Appreciate that many newer CDPs have digital inputs though...
I pretty much listen to CD and vinyl exclusively, and don't use streaming or computer-based audio, but if I make that move then the DAC'll be ready to take it. The DAC is also something that I don't intend to ever change...
I know what you mean though in that DACs seem to be a component that gets chopped and changed around a lot judging by forum chatter.
Wakefield Turntables
06-02-2014, 12:03
Costs possibly?
I decent transport and DAC works out cheaper than hi end esoterica?
Just my 2 bob's worth.
I went the separate DAC route back in '98 when I bought my Audiolab 8000 CDM/DAX combo...
The CDM transport was pensioned off to the attic in 2009, with the advent of my Squeezebox server and client system, whist the DAX was used in my main system coupled with a Squeezebox up until 2011, when it was superseded by my then new MDAC.
The DAX is now in use in my 3rd system, so I've only had it 16 years...very disposable!
I doubt I'll be replacing my MDAC for another 10 years too :eyebrows:
Modularity is what it's all about
I think it's probably quite simple..
The CD player used as a transport with the best looks and user experience and build quality is either going to be out of many people's budget, not sound as good as the latest DAC they heard or simply doesn't come with a DAC with external inputs..
There are many many people out there who only justify having a CD player at all because it was relatively cheap secondhand, is built like a tank (you can't get that build quality any more new without spending multi-thousands) and has classic chunky looks that are still appreciated.
In other words, people use their DACs for other sources besides CD and a CD Transport is a cheap extra or a retro-statement product.
Dac swapping is the same as any other box-swapping I guess - part of the hobby of hifi. People like Lampizator and DIYers on DIYaudio.com have made quite a lot of the different sounds coming from different DAC chips and implementations (e.g. NOS) over the years - people want to experiment and hear the differences for themselves.
Then the tech still hasn't settled down yet either - people might stop swapping once say DSD512 is standard in DACs with all the inputs they need like a sorted USB.
For me, whilst not much of a DAC swapper, I'd much rather have a DAC which does it all than seperate DACs in items each doing their own thing - want to be able to compare the different formats through the same DAC and reduce the variables as much as possible.
Even secondhand CD players with external DAC inputs are relatively expensive as they are fairly new items that were high-end (in the last 5 - 10 years). Then what is out there is probably still only 24/96K and so I'd need yet another DAC to try out DSD or 192K files I've got.
I'm more into thinking about DIY DACs though at the moment, hence not big on DAC swapping myself.
Yes, I guess that transports are cheap these days but as ever, there's several camps. Those who say they matter and those who don't. As for me, I'm very happy to be lucky enough to have a one box solution with a superb on-board DAC (I haven't heard anything better so will probably not go down the external DAC route). I think that most DACs even on cheaper CDPs these days are very good and even mid-budget models come with multiple inputs and outputs so there's seemingly no reason for going down the separates route than to have a more discrete DAC with multiple inputs of one's choice and with the advent of decent DACs at bargain basement prices (like the Sabre-chipped DACs) cost is also a good argument I guess.
CD Transports certainly matter to me in terms of build quality and enjoyment of use - heavy build, good displays, different designs ..
So many cd players today use the very same CD-Pro2 + display standard bundle that they are all as boring as hell in terms of looks!
I'd rather have a Marantz CD95, a studio player like my Tascam CD701 with unique red LED display, jogwheel remote, or something with really heavy build like Marco's CDP x777es.
So even if you don't think they matter sonically, in terms of pride of ownership and enjoyment of their build quality (solidly built trays which don't rattle around and sound plastic as they go in and out) there are other reasons to choose them (and even hide the DAC out of the way). The solid clonk of the Meridian 602 I have is joyful in its own way - the draw (which carries the mech) seems so powerful that it almost moves the whole transport as it hits the end stop, would do if it didn't have grippy rubber feet. Then there's the glass front, the uncommon 90s Meridian green dot matrix display and unusual long buttons.. yum!
What player do you have out of interest and what sample rates can it handle?
CD Transports certainly matter to me in terms of build quality and enjoyment of use - heavy build, good displays, different designs ..
So many cd players today use the very same CD-Pro2 + display standard bundle that they are all as boring as hell in terms of looks!
I'd rather have a Marantz CD95, a studio player like my Tascam CD701 with unique red LED display, jogwheel remote, or something with really heavy build like Marco's CDP x777es.
So even if you don't think they matter sonically, in terms of pride of ownership and enjoyment of their build quality (solidly built trays which don't rattle around and sound plastic as they go in and out) there are other reasons to choose them (and even hide the DAC out of the way). The solid clonk of the Meridian 602 I have is joyful in its own way - the draw (which carries the mech) seems so powerful that it almost moves the whole transport as it hits the end stop, would do if it didn't have grippy rubber feet. Then there's the glass front, the uncommon 90s Meridian green dot matrix display and unusual long buttons.. yum!
What player do you have out of interest and what sample rates can it handle?
Amen to that Nat.
I have a couple at the moment....
This one:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_7427_zpsbd5f43fe.jpg
and this one:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_7914_zpsedaa982b.jpg
The Droplet is a NOS player but can be configured for 88.2/176.4 it Uses TAD 1543 chipsets (16 bit)
The Accuphase I've only had as of today and couldn't tell you much except it's 24 bit linear and sounds pretty good.
jandl100
06-02-2014, 18:49
I've enjoyed both integrated CDPs and CDT/DAC combos recently.
I don't think it is correct to say that one way is better than another.
A point in favour of the CDT/DAC route is that (assuming you find, as I do, that sound quality of transports is as variable as that of DACs) you are asking a single component to do two jobs - separating them into two separate boxes allows you to choose the transport and DAC sonic synergy that best suits you, rather than leaving it to the commercial choice of the CDP manufacturer.
-- you can also have fun cableswapping digital connections and have different audiophile mains cables going to each component. :D
Laptop / DAC
1) Rip CDs and avoid wear on your CDs. Do the rip while you play - no effort.
2) Don't need to keep getting up.
3) MUCH, MUCH easier to find what you want and chop and change. Chronically so.
4) The latest Async USB/Amanero cards sound bloody brilliant. Better than coax or optical by a margin.
5) Can output the laptop screen to a big telly via HDMI - which I enjoy doing from time to time.
6) JRiver has brilliant digital EQ and PEQ.
7) Great for Spotify / Qobuz subscriptions. No Squeezebox required. Access to massive databases of music. This feature is killer and I really don't understand anyone who doesn't want that.
The list goes on but that'll do for now:)
I guess it's horses for courses Justin. I can see that it suits your needs perfectly to do what you;'ve done, but the very last thing I want to see when playing music is a computer keyboard and screen plus the SQ of the players I have is fab.
The real gist as Jerry has alluded to is that it's not which one is better, but which set-up suits the end user and with the flexibility to do both (sorry, I don't buy the separate transport need although I appreciate that some do) with my CDPs, I doubt I'll go down the separate DAC route. I can see though the attractions of going the laptop route especially if streaming muzak :ner:
When my mildly tweaked early squeezebox equalled my Naim CD + Flatcap in sound quality and also offered better convenience, more features and no in room storage requirements for CDs all at a much lower cost....I ditched it.
To get the sound quality I now get from a heavily tweak SB and external DAC I suspect I would have to spend a hell of a lot on a CD only transport and even more on an all in one and then it still would not be able to offer me the convienence, additional features and upgradability that I now enjoy.
I guess it's horses for courses Justin. I can see that it suits your needs perfectly to do what you;'ve done, but the very last thing I want to see when playing music is a computer keyboard and screen plus the SQ of the players I have is fab.
The real gist as Jerry has alluded to is that it's not which one is better, but which set-up suits the end user and with the flexibility to do both (sorry, I don't buy the separate transport need although I appreciate that some do) with my CDPs, I doubt I'll go down the separate DAC route. I can see though the attractions of going the laptop route especially if streaming muzak :ner:
I am Nomad. You are non-sequitur.
http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-037-captain-kirk-confronts/320x240.jpg
Hook the laptop up to the telly, select Theatre View in JRiver, and control it remotely using just your mouse and an 802.11g USB dongle. See your album art on the big telly.
Flat-earther. You'll come round. One day.
I am Nomad. You are non-sequitur.
http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200306/tos-037-captain-kirk-confronts/320x240.jpg
Hook the laptop up to the telly, select Theatre View in JRiver, and control it remotely using just your mouse and an 802.11g USB dongle. See your album art on the big telly.
Flat-earther. You'll come round. One day.
I doubt it. Perfectly happy with the stoneage method of putting physical formats onto physical players. Works for me :ner:
TV screens and laptops have no place in the way I like to enjoy music. It's odd to be pressured into adopting something that holds no real musical advantage other than convenience. Fair enough if that's what you want.
I don't mind Paul and there's no pressure. Carry on!
You'll be using big bits of black plastic with spiral grooves cut in them soon enough, you mark my words:lol:
I don't mind Paul and there's no pressure. Carry on!
You'll be using big bits of black plastic with spiral grooves cut in them soon enough, you mark my words:lol:
...now there's an idea!:)
brian2957
07-02-2014, 08:54
Laptop / DAC
1) Rip CDs and avoid wear on your CDs. Do the rip while you play - no effort.
2) Don't need to keep getting up.
3) MUCH, MUCH easier to find what you want and chop and change. Chronically so.
4) The latest Async USB/Amanero cards sound bloody brilliant. Better than coax or optical by a margin.
5) Can output the laptop screen to a big telly via HDMI - which I enjoy doing from time to time.
6) JRiver has brilliant digital EQ and PEQ.
7) Great for Spotify / Qobuz subscriptions. No Squeezebox required. Access to massive databases of music. This feature is killer and I really don't understand anyone who doesn't want that.
The list goes on but that'll do for now:)
+1 :)
I’v’e had a few Dacs now, some bought without even listening to them, some on trial and finally when I thought I had at least an idea of what sort of Dac I wanted, my most recent purchase which I expect to keep for many years to come.
I can’t think of many pieces of Hi Fi I’ve bought, or heard (excluding the period when I had record players) that gave a major upgrade in sound. I had a CD and record player when I moved to file based audio and I bought an HRT 11 on a recommendation of a friend. Fed from a well set up laptop, it sounded better than anything else I could possibly afford at the time.
File based audio, even at a modest level simply sounded better than my record deck (tweaked Thorens TD 160s in a granite plinth with a Haddcock 228 arm and London Decca Gold) or my CD player (the original Exposure CD)
Despite years of audio enthusiasm and the skepticism some knowledge and experience that DIY can bring one can’t help wondering if that next piece of kit will give the night and day changes the Hi Fi press and forums like these would have one believe. I didn’t know much about digital to analogue conversion when I started on the file based audio path and hadn’t heard many Dacs.
I’ve done the Dac bit now ;) separate power supplies, USB, SPDIF, bits of glass, this chip or that etc etc, mostly carried out with minimum expense because I’ve done it myself.
Thankfully I’ve been a DBT fan from my record playing days and it didn’t take me that long to realise that Dacs are much like the other electronics we use to reproduce sound, after a certain level it isn’t sonic ability you pay for.
Having a computer in the audio chain instead of say a CD player openes up a whole new world of possible ways to improve sound quality that doesn't entail the tortuous upgrade path those with a financial interest in the HI Fi trade are so keen to get the less wary enthusiasts treading.
Finally there is of course the convenience. :)
Most of what I want to listen to is on file somewhere. I’ve got close to 3000 albums on file and if someone hasn’t digitized what I haven’t got, but want yet, they will at some point.
I have yet to find a CD based system that a) measures any better and b) sounds as good to my ears.
Few people I come across in the hifi world have bought a DAC and kept it for longer than a year or two at most.
Count me as one then, Paul! I've had my modified Sony DAC now for 7 years, and I don't intend changing it until I hear something that comprehensively outperforms it, without ridiculous expenditure.
It's similarly the case with streaming: until someone demonstrates a file-based system to me (and I've heard a few) that comprehensively outperforms my CDP/DAC, without needing a degree in computing or electronics to build-it and/or operate it, I'll be keeping things just as they are!
:exactly:
Marco.
Amen to that Nat.
I have a couple at the moment....
This one:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_7427_zpsbd5f43fe.jpg
and this one:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_7914_zpsedaa982b.jpg
The Droplet is a NOS player but can be configured for 88.2/176.4 it Uses TAD 1543 chipsets (16 bit)
The Accuphase I've only had as of today and couldn't tell you much except it's 24 bit linear and sounds pretty good.
Ah, well... I can see where you're coming from now!
For many the 1543 NOS DAC with high sample rates would be many's choice of external dac ! Sounds like a good design from Droplet (aarrgh! The blue display and CD Pro2 top loader is invading our homes!). I bet the Accuphase is great to use too in build terms at least.
I'm working on (very very slowly - got the chips at least) an UltraAnalogue D20400 chip NOS DAC in a similar vein - an attempt to copy the famous Stax Xt-1/Manley Reference valve output super DACs of the 90s combined with modern NOS thinking. If I can get the unit ok (supposed to be a final production run this month) it will have Anagram upsampling to 384KHz which just fits into the old chips 400KHz sample rate.
Laptop / DAC
1) Rip CDs and avoid wear on your CDs. Do the rip while you play - no effort.
2) Don't need to keep getting up.
3) MUCH, MUCH easier to find what you want and chop and change. Chronically so.
4) The latest Async USB/Amanero cards sound bloody brilliant. Better than coax or optical by a margin.
5) Can output the laptop screen to a big telly via HDMI - which I enjoy doing from time to time.
6) JRiver has brilliant digital EQ and PEQ.
7) Great for Spotify / Qobuz subscriptions. No Squeezebox required. Access to massive databases of music. This feature is killer and I really don't understand anyone who doesn't want that.
The list goes on but that'll do for now:)
Wear on your CDs? You're not supposed to use a stylus on them! I've a pro CD polishing machine I bought off ebay a couple of years ago so have that aspect covered (assuming it works - never used it!).
That's all nice but I would miss the CD player even then. I like interaction and variety of interaction - making playing music the same as using the internet or creating an invoice (whatever people use computers for for work..) is edging towards being strapped into the Matrix with your body only in the virtual world. Err.. edging very slightly, like a few mm.
Bit like making music with synths - software synthesis is cheap, convenient, sounds great, integrates perfectly with your recording software. But the way your brain interacts with each synth is effectively the same for every single one. With hardware synths, how the control surfaces work and the sounds are created effects how you interact with them and that in turn adds variety to the end the result, very much like how recording techniques with tape throw up different challenges and therefore different solutions therefore different sounds. Using physical controls can also increase the feeling and vibe created within the music as more of your body is involved, rhythm etc is felt more rather than just programmed.
Playing music via a PC is a lesser effect on an end result (you're just listening afterall) but doing everything via computer as many people do - communication, reading the news, work, creative work, listening to music - DOES effect your brain (it streamlines itself to computer use) and will tend to make you think in the same way towards everything, less able to think "outside of the box" as you need variety in life to do that, the spice of life. I also find that I've less involvement, my mind wanders more when I play off my laptop - it's like getting up and being more physical actually concentrates my mind on what I'm about to enjoy.
Then there's the fun of creating perfectly timed loops with the A <-> B repeat feature on your CD player! Doing that on a computer is too easy..
That said, I definately need to sort out my music PC for playing downloads, vinyl rips I've found etc. Got an older Hush PC (fanless thing, external PSU) but it's too old running a 800MHz VIA chipset - need to work which relatively modern motherboard I can put in it with minimal re-construction of heat exchanger things..
hoopsontoast
07-02-2014, 15:43
I exclusively use CD or Vinyl. I work with computers all day, and I find it refreshing to come home and use the simple user interface that a CDP provides. I only have two buttons, 'On' then 'Play'.
I like to peruse my CD collection rather than flicking through on a PC, same with vinyl.
Having to get up to change the side on an LP or change CD is no bother for me either, keeps me fit. Especially since I no longer have a remote for the Preamp :lol:
Its just personal preference.
Just don't let that lovely Sony of yours go! ;)
Marco.
hoopsontoast
08-02-2014, 13:03
Just don't let that lovely Sony of yours go! ;)
Marco.
Not going anywhere!
Count me as one then, Paul! I've had my modified Sony DAC now for 7 years, and I don't intend changing it until I hear something that comprehensively outperforms it, without ridiculous expenditure.
It's similarly the case with streaming: until someone demonstrates a file-based system to me (and I've heard a few) that comprehensively outperforms my CDP/DAC, without needing a degree in computing or electronics to build-it and/or operate it, I'll be keeping things just as they are!
:exactly:
Marco.
Amen to that Marco. When people start talking about tablets for controlling their front ends, It makes me think they must be ill and have just come from the pharmacy :lol: It may be irrational given the flexibility plus points that Justin's so clearly spelled out, but I'm most definitely in your camp of thought. I don't want more boxes, wires, control points and hardware scattered across the room when one simple box does it all. Neither do I want to be glued to screens and the like.
I exclusively use CD or Vinyl. I work with computers all day, and I find it refreshing to come home and use the simple user interface that a CDP provides. I only have two buttons, 'On' then 'Play'.
I like to peruse my CD collection rather than flicking through on a PC, same with vinyl.
Having to get up to change the side on an LP or change CD is no bother for me either, keeps me fit. Especially since I no longer have a remote for the Preamp :lol:
Its just personal preference.
Same here Rob. I spend enough time at computer screens during the day and in the evenings.
Wear on your CDs? You're not supposed to use a stylus on them! I've a pro CD polishing machine I bought off ebay a couple of years ago so have that aspect covered (assuming it works - never used it!).
That's all nice but I would miss the CD player even then. I like interaction and variety of interaction - making playing music the same as using the internet or creating an invoice (whatever people use computers for for work..) is edging towards being strapped into the Matrix with your body only in the virtual world. Err.. edging very slightly, like a few mm.
Bit like making music with synths - software synthesis is cheap, convenient, sounds great, integrates perfectly with your recording software. But the way your brain interacts with each synth is effectively the same for every single one. With hardware synths, how the control surfaces work and the sounds are created effects how you interact with them and that in turn adds variety to the end the result, very much like how recording techniques with tape throw up different challenges and therefore different solutions therefore different sounds. Using physical controls can also increase the feeling and vibe created within the music as more of your body is involved, rhythm etc is felt more rather than just programmed.
Playing music via a PC is a lesser effect on an end result (you're just listening afterall) but doing everything via computer as many people do - communication, reading the news, work, creative work, listening to music - DOES effect your brain (it streamlines itself to computer use) and will tend to make you think in the same way towards everything, less able to think "outside of the box" as you need variety in life to do that, the spice of life. I also find that I've less involvement, my mind wanders more when I play off my laptop - it's like getting up and being more physical actually concentrates my mind on what I'm about to enjoy.
Then there's the fun of creating perfectly timed loops with the A <-> B repeat feature on your CD player! Doing that on a computer is too easy..
That said, I definately need to sort out my music PC for playing downloads, vinyl rips I've found etc. Got an older Hush PC (fanless thing, external PSU) but it's too old running a 800MHz VIA chipset - need to work which relatively modern motherboard I can put in it with minimal re-construction of heat exchanger things..
Keep us posted on that Nat, it sounds like a really interesting project!
Peter Stockwell
09-02-2014, 05:23
Yes, I guess that transports are cheap these days but as ever, there's several camps. Those who say they matter and those who don't. As for me, I'm very happy to be lucky enough to have a one box solution with a superb on-board DAC (I haven't heard anything better so will probably not go down the external DAC route). I think that most DACs even on cheaper CDPs these days are very good and even mid-budget models come with multiple inputs and outputs so there's seemingly no reason for going down the separates route than to have a more discrete DAC with multiple inputs of one's choice and with the advent of decent DACs at bargain basement prices (like the Sabre-chipped DACs) cost is also a good argument I guess.
Hi Paul, I've too many dacs at home and now only one CD player/transport. It's a TEAC VRDS9 I love the chunky looks, but the on board dac is not outstanding, it's OK. I had the VRDS9 hotrodded as a transport by Colin @ Chevronaudio, it does sound fine as a transport.
However, I use almost exclusively JRiver on a dedicated fanless/SSD PC as playback software, and if I want to use a physical CD, a usb DVD drive works perfectly well. CD/.flac sounds the same through JRiver, and through my favourite Chevron NDF16 dac (16 bits only) sounds as good as I need.
The dac has 5 inputs, so I can use the .dac as an input switcher for digital, or digitalised, sources, and my 2 input volume control has a phono stage. Don't see a CD player as viable product, today.
Sovereign
09-02-2014, 10:41
I tend to agree with Justin, it's not just the convenience of using a laptop/DAC but it is the ability and the versatility it offers.
I'm not a screen watcher, I play the music through the laptop and turn the light off on the screen and have it virtually closed.
Lets's add a few more:
8) DSP effects, should you like them, for very low cost (JRiver again).
9) No balance control on your preamp? You've got a digital one.
10) Change playback speed without affecting pitch - cool when trying to decipher that guitar solo.
11) Buy a USB measurement mic and experiment with room correction (JRiver).
12) Do in-room frequency response checks for free (HolmImpulse), and use a whole wealth a s/w tools available and essential IMHO for loudspeaker design. My new speakers will certainly get thoroughly checked out.
13) Learn an absolute mass about audio by doing relatively easy things i.e. use a s/w tone generator to understand what various frequencies actually sound like.
14) Validate that your current setup isn't massively technically flawed by doing some basic tests with a mic.
15) Buy music instantly and download it, and play it back without having to wait days or go out.
16) Some stuff just isn't available on physical media.
17) If you can cope with the SQ, there's a lot of stuff on YouTube.
18) Control music playback via you phone from all over the house (Wi-Fi).
It isn't too hard to think of even more reasons. It's killer, face it. Or live in self-denial, LOL!
Peter Stockwell
09-02-2014, 12:33
I tend to agree with Justin, it's not just the convenience of using a laptop/DAC but it is the ability and the versatility it offers.
I'm not a screen watcher, I play the music through the laptop and turn the light off on the screen and have it virtually closed.
Yes, I even have to use an iWhatsit, actaully an android whatsit, to see what's playing, or go to another room to VNC into the audio computer, so sometimes I haveto walk further than when I listen to an LP!
Lets's add a few more:
8) DSP effects, should you like them, for very low cost (JRiver again).
9) No balance control on your preamp? You've got a digital one.
10) Change playback speed without affecting pitch - cool when trying to decipher that guitar solo.
11) Buy a USB measurement mic and experiment with room correction (JRiver).
12) Do in-room frequency response checks for free (HolmImpulse), and use a whole wealth a s/w tools available and essential IMHO for loudspeaker design. My new speakers will certainly get thoroughly checked out.
13) Learn an absolute mass about audio by doing relatively easy things i.e. use a s/w tone generator to understand what various frequencies actually sound like.
14) Validate that your current setup isn't massively technically flawed by doing some basic tests with a mic.
15) Buy music instantly and download it, and play it back without having to wait days or go out.
16) Some stuff just isn't available on physical media.
17) If you can cope with the SQ, there's a lot of stuff on YouTube.
18) Control music playback via you phone from all over the house (Wi-Fi).
It isn't too hard to think of even more reasons. It's killer, face it. Or live in self-denial, LOL!
I have the tools and ability to do most of that already Justin. I can still rip CD's to the PC and download to my personal high res player for taking out (plugging into the car) or as another source for the amp. I have all the measurement tools needed for my work without subscribing to JRiver or any other similar software provider.
Sorry, its still not being sold to me. Some stuff may not be available on physical media but most of the music I want is. I have no problems with either LP or CD, nor getting off my backside to play them. :lol: I'm not missing out on anything. I have music. I enjoy it. I have specialist tools for work. I use them.
Frankly, if any system is so far out that it's audible, you don't need tools to tell you that. If the sound is great but someone comes along and tells you that after measuring your room, you're 3dB up or down somewhere, I doubt most of us would lose any sleep over that at all. There's never going to be perfection in audio so to lose sleep over a lack of perfection is a waste of time. To design with perfection as the end goal is admirable and is what most good designers aim for but accept that compromises usually have to be made somewhere along the line. For however good you may think you have your system sounding with all that jiggery-pokery at your fingertips, there will always be someone come along and disagree, so providing you're happy, that's all that counts. When I put on a piece of music, I want to relax and listen to it, not fret over channel balance or slight alterations to FR or to fiddle away non stop. I'm happy with my lot. It sounds like others are too, so whatever floats your boat and works for you is fine.
Sound quality wise, I have yet to be convinced of any merits over one or the other. Once you reach a certain level of player or transport/DAC or streaming/DAC, it all sounds pretty much decent these days. Differences can be subtle (but important) but overall, a good CDP = Decent file based music/DAC = Decent transport/DAC imho.
JRiver isn't a sub's, Paul. Google it. Maybe I should work for them.
You just don't have the flexibility of those lists no matter what you say. Want me to go on? And then against each point you can list your alternative? You will defo lose on cost and flexibility.
JRiver isn't a sub's, Paul. Google it. Maybe I should work for them.
You just don't have the flexibility of those lists no matter what you say. Want me to go on? And then against each point you can list your alternative? You will defo lose on cost and flexibility.
I'm happy for you Justin, honestly ;)
jandl100
09-02-2014, 12:56
It isn't too hard to think of even more reasons. It's killer, face it. Or live in self-denial, LOL!
The trouble is, at your bake-off a couple of years ago I took my Pioneer CDT along - copied a CD onto your PC - and compared playback via the CDT and your PC, the CDT was substantially better sounding! - more presence, solider bass - George(47) and I just looked at each other in surprise - and smiled. ;)
Lampizator etal have brought out multi£k streaming devices for a reason!
You're talking to a s/w engineer - what do you expect:)
TBH computer audio has downsides. I'll list a few later.
You're talking to a s/w engineer - what do you expect:)
TBH computer audio has downsides. I'll list a few later.
The disadvantage is that you have to use a computer ;)
I know loads of folk who work in IT and if they have one thing in common it is that they love computers, love tinkering about with them for hours, adjusting settings and so forth. For me it is like a kettle or a toaster. Switch it on and if it does its job I am happy. For those of us who do not love computers it is just not something we want to introduce into our music regime (for want of a better word). Or maybe we are just stuck in our ways.
Right - out of the bath now after enjoying my Spotify subs on the mobile in chronic SQ. Think I've found a good album doing so though:)
Jerry - in that case I tend to agree with you, though I was in and out of the room.
However, all that tells us is the Young and the Pioneer had good digital synergy. In other words, the timing with the coax and Pioneer bitwise was probably, and I say probably because we didn't measurebate it, better. I tend to blame it on the Young's USB input being not the best. But it woundn't surprise me if some Young owners disagree. The h/w they have may have better synergy (by fluke?).
Repeat that on the Lampizator I have and USB wins quite clearly.
The Lampy transports are glorified Squeezebox's. I'm not saying they aren't good however. Not heard one but I suspect they are fine.
One problem with digital I/O is that the USB implementation can and needs to be really good. Otherwise, you are on a definite loser. Having to use async USB to coax or optical converters means you lose the benefit of async USB. And that can lead the pretty awful timing errors - to the point of white noise as you heard with my old Tri-Vista when things got really bad. No true sync going on there.
Another problem is buggy s/w, though JRiver is pretty good WRT that. Also, annoying s/w updates when you least want them. Spotify are constantly doing that.
The disadvantage is that you have to use a computer ;)
I know loads of folk who work in IT and if they have one thing in common it is that they love computers, love tinkering about with them for hours, adjusting settings and so forth. For me it is like a kettle or a toaster. Switch it on and if it does its job I am happy. For those of us who do not love computers it is just not something we want to introduce into our music regime (for want of a better word). Or maybe we are just stuck in our ways.
I can see that and it's fine. But you can't deny there's flexibility with a PC setup that you just don't get with a CDP. Bags of it - IF, I repeat IF you can live with it:) Pretty essential really.
I can see that and it's fine. But you can't deny there's flexibility with a PC setup that you just don't get with a CDP. Bags of it - IF, I repeat IF you can live with it:) Pretty essential really.
No I don't deny that, the PC approach certainly has a lot of advantages and whilst I don't agree that it can intrinsically sound any better than a CD player I also think there is no reason for it to sound worse. And it does appeal to the tinkerer in me to an extent. So I have not ruled it out for the future. If there was a service like Spotify but at red book SQ standards for £10 a month that would probably tip me over the edge.
Spotify Premium offers 320kbs streams for £9.99 / Month. Since going the streaming route I've discovered much music than I think I would have done sticking with CD, also having a teenager in the house helps as well!
I've heard Spotify Premium through numerous systems and whilst the SQ seems to vary depending on what you listen to it is still noticeably not good enough compared to CD replay. There is quite a margin in it sometimes, it would bother me too much.
If there was a service like Spotify but at red book SQ standards for £10 a month that would probably tip me over the edge.
If/when Qobuz drop it to that level I'll sign up. £20/month is too much.
Peter Stockwell
09-02-2014, 16:17
If/when Qobuz drop it to that level I'll sign up. £20/month is too much.
Do you buy CDs ?
Do you buy CDs ?
Yes. I like to own physical media if possible. I generally only buy it these days after I've checked it out on Spotify or some other streaming effort.
If your angle is Qobuz is good value, I can see that argument. But 320KBPS to uncompressed for £10/month extra? Hm. I tend to use Spotify for searching new stuff only.
I only have two buttons, 'On' then 'Play'.
:scratch: uh? I only remember mine having one, 'Play'.
Oh! The other one is around the back and I don't remember the last time I touched it...
Lets's add a few more:
8) DSP effects, should you like them, for very low cost (JRiver again).
9) No balance control on your preamp? You've got a digital one.
10) Change playback speed without affecting pitch - cool when trying to decipher that guitar solo.
11) Buy a USB measurement mic and experiment with room correction (JRiver).
12) Do in-room frequency response checks for free (HolmImpulse), and use a whole wealth a s/w tools available and essential IMHO for loudspeaker design. My new speakers will certainly get thoroughly checked out.
13) Learn an absolute mass about audio by doing relatively easy things i.e. use a s/w tone generator to understand what various frequencies actually sound like.
14) Validate that your current setup isn't massively technically flawed by doing some basic tests with a mic.
15) Buy music instantly and download it, and play it back without having to wait days or go out.
16) Some stuff just isn't available on physical media.
17) If you can cope with the SQ, there's a lot of stuff on YouTube.
18) Control music playback via you phone from all over the house (Wi-Fi).
It isn't too hard to think of even more reasons. It's killer, face it. Or live in self-denial, LOL!
You've missed out
19) Can do your accounts on it
20) Play Minesweeper
21) Send email
22) Design a skyscraper in every detail via some CAD program
I'm sure there are others.. computers are great! I have one!
But to play a CD you only need a CD player that does its thing silently and unobtrusively and gives you a different experience that is a nice and distinctly seperate one to using a computer for yet another task..
Have both if you want to acheive the other things like playing other digital files. Not like they take up any room although I'd give more display/visual space to a superb CD player.
Sovereign
09-02-2014, 18:40
I must admit that spotify has totally opened up a whole new world of music to me, I only listen to it when I'm on the hunt for new music, when I find what I like I then buy the cd. I use
D to waste hundreds of pounds on CDs I would only listen to once then shelve. £10'per month for spotify saves me a shed load
Yes. I like to own physical media if possible. I generally only buy it these days after I've checked it out on Spotify or some other streaming effort.
If your angle is Qobuz is good value, I can see that argument. But 320KBPS to uncompressed for £10/month extra? Hm. I tend to use Spotify for searching new stuff only.
I'm looking forward to Kim Dotcom's Baboom (www.Baboom.com) service = free (but you install a browser plugin which replaces some ads when generally browsing). It's more about brand new material but streaming is free and full res FLAC! Might take a while to fill up with good material - will have to see how well artists do from it to see if people migrate (artists) and the general model.
Peter Stockwell
09-02-2014, 18:53
Yes. I like to own physical media if possible. I generally only buy it these days after I've checked it out on Spotify or some other streaming effort.
If your angle is Qobuz is good value, I can see that argument. But 320KBPS to uncompressed for £10/month extra? Hm. I tend to use Spotify for searching new stuff only.
I was spending about 40€ a month on CDs, many times on a taste it and see basis. With Qobuz, I get to hear more music in top quality (I'm still not convinced about Higher sample and bit rates), somethings like ECM aren't available, or limited, and I can hear the drop off when it's not CD quality streaming.
If you look at streaming as a testing tool, I can see why you wouldn't want to pay the extra. I signed up for a year, you get 2 "free" months, and in France it's 200€ for the annual subscription.
I find there are many other ways to try before you buy these days... not least of all via YouTube.
If you look at streaming as a testing tool, I can see why you wouldn't want to pay the extra. I signed up for a year, you get 2 "free" months, and in France it's 200€ for the annual subscription.
Well you don't get that here...
The choice is limited compared to Spotify, but it isn't bad and will only get better.
Yes, sometimes I struggle with Spotify SQ, other times, I buy the CD and actually prefer the 320K version, God forbid.
I'm not that convinced about the link between technical superiority and SQ - the ear (well, mine anyway) likes things that shouldn't be better. With some recordings, curtailing some information results in a better sonics. With others (the majority), it fails totally.
Spotify bitrate can be revealed by doing this (http://community.spotify.com/t5/Newcomers-and-Contribution/Guide-How-to-see-a-bitrate-in-Spotify/td-p/88059). Though IMHO they should just fess up and display it on the main GUI. Most of the stuff I seem to listen to is at 320K.
I was spending about 40€ on CDs many times on a taste it and see basis, I get to hear more music in top quality (I'm still not convinced about Higher sample and bit rates), somethings like ECM aren't available, or limited, wothQobuz, and I can hear the drop off when it's not CD quality streaming.
If you look at streaming as a testing tool, I can see why you wouldn't want to pay the extra. I signed up for a year, you get 2 "free" months, and in France it's 200€ for the annual subscription.
I initially tried Qobuz in December when they first launched in the UK for streaming, i gave up due to poor content. I have however resubscribed and now very please with not only the quality which streams CD quality to my Sonos Connect but the content.
Peter Stockwell
10-02-2014, 06:30
I initially tried Qobuz in December when they first launched in the UK for streaming, i gave up due to poor content. I have however resubscribed and now very please with not only the quality which streams CD quality to my Sonos Connect but the content.
Did they offer, as a UK subscriber, the annual subscription ?
One attraction of a CD player v DAC is that a good design should be able to match the output from the CD mech to the DAC chip as directly as possible rather than via all sorts of format conversion via S/Pdif etc.
Agreed, although much depends on how good the built-in DAC is inside the CDP, compared with that of an external one. If the latter is notably superior, then that will likely outweigh the negatives of format conversion via S/Pdif, etc.
Furthermore, I've found that the ability of the digital cable (coaxial or optical), connecting the CDP or CD transport to an external DAC, to transfer the necessary musical information truly transparently (and here I'm not just talking about getting the noughts and ones right), can make or break the results obtained.
Much also depends on how well, or otherwise, the CDP in question 'mates' (in terms of clocking, etc) with the partnering DAC. This is why using both items from the same manufacturer often pays dividends.
Marco.
I think a lot of the use of external DACs is down to OCD audiophiles finding another parameter to fiddle about with. My Exposure CDP doesn't allow the use of an external DAC. If it had done, I'd almost certainly have tried at least one, as I did with the Arcam Alpha player that i owned previously. To be honest I doubt if I could say whether the differences (if there were any) from using an external DAC were actually improvements.
Often it's good to keep things simple, Joe. Even some integrated amplifiers can perform better than certain pre/power combos (which can come as a shock to some audiophiles, conditioned to believe that the latter are automatically better ;)), for similar reasons as to why an integrated CD player can outperform some CDP/DAC combos.
However, if your Exposure allowed the use of an external DAC, and that DAC was *notably* superior to the built-in one inside your CDP, you would most likely hear it.
Marco.
Often it's good to keep things simple, Joe. Even some integrated amplifiers can perform better than certain pre/power combos (which can come as a shock to some audiophiles ;)), for similar reasons as to why an integrated CD player can outperform some CDP/DAC combos.
.
Indeed. My 'main' system now includes an integrated amp/DAC/phono amp, replacing four previous components in six separate boxes!
Yup - I don't doubt it, as there's usually some sonic penalty to pay for complicating the signal path. However, it's a question of balance and what is achievable in a certain context, and at a certain price level.
It's often the case, in my experience, that when the budget is tight, the money used by a manufacturer creating separate boxes to house pre/power units inside, would be better spent on the quality of the components used overall in the design. That is why, shorter signal path aside, integrated amplifiers can have an advantage.
In my opinion, pre/power combos only really come into their own when you enter the £3000+ arena, where the manufacturer then has sufficient budget to ensure that less areas of the design are compromised.
Marco.
Magna Audio
14-02-2014, 11:36
My DAC history.
I had a very pricey top of the range CDP, a Copland. It was bettered by a 2nd hand DPA Enlightenment dac some 12 years its senior for 1/7th of the price. I sold the Copland for decent money and never missed it.
The ability to use other transports appeals to me also.
I tried a Meridian or two but did not like them.
Tried Lavry and Benchmark - Nope, the DPA was more to my taste. I even tried one of those NOS dacs in an opaque plastic case - utter waste of time:)
I now have 4 stereo dacs built into the Wroclaw Audio Force Najda (DSP / Pre / ADC / DAC / Crossover / digital filter capability) and can honestly say its brilliant. DACs are as good as the DPA - it does have a slightly different presentation but nothing I did not like.
Of course not many of you will need 4 dacs like this and most do not even bi-amp let alone quad-amp / quint-amp as I do.
However I think it demonstrates that the implementation is all important.
Najda does use DACs that whilst recognised as very good some say can be bettered, whilst other say it is the implementation - much discussion has been had on this. I could change the DAC chips for not a lot of money and may do that at some point. I can also change the op-amps easily and cheaply. Both are plug-in chips.
So I think it is down to implementation these days rather than one chipset verses another as it was in the past.
Now you will say, all that messing with DSP... well w are already in the digital domain and the flexibility and feature set it has for properly controlling speakers for me pays back so much it is a solution that is in a class of its own - if you can be bothered to implement.
Even in ADC to DAC mode it is transparent. I first tested it extensively set on pass through. So I could really test what changes it was making to the sound / presentation. Amazed me just how transparent it was. Then I lumped on all the benefits of direct, amp to driver connection, ideal X/O slopes, precise room mode correction and time alignment... It just adds up to a whole other level!
Others are probably just as good - miniDSP, DEQX (very pricey) and I have no commercial connection with WAF Najda other than being an early adopter and satisfied customer.
What I find interesting is the dismissal by people 'who don't want a computer', what's a CD player then? . . . but that's another discussion entirely and I'm not feeling that pedantic today :eyebrows:
Anyway, you don't have to have a traditional computer or what most would consider to be a computer, I certainly don't want one in my lounge on display and I don't think most folk would think my file server was a computer, sure doesn't look like one IMO? It measures 8" x 8" and currently its holding nearly 3,000 FLAC files, which can be played with a few swipes of the finger. I have access to around 30% of the full artwork as well (a work in progress) with just a swipe of the fingers.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/voyage_zpsfa43ff89.jpg
It headless, no mouse, keyboard or anything just a PSU attached - you just turn it on and select your music from a touchscreen tablet which lives on the sofa using the Gizmo app - just a remote control really, with the added bonus of showing you what's playing? Couldn't be simpler and I love it and as for sound quality per pound/value, well nothing I have heard can touch it to be frank. I always buy a physical item where I can, I don't like downloads preferring to do my own rips and scans of the artwork, before archiving the disc - redbook is perfect for me too and I have never enjoyed my music as much . . . ever :D
Gizmo by JRiver
What's playing:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/folder7_zps7a8893df.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/folder7_zps7a8893df.jpg.html)
Choosing an album:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/folder6_zps936aa92b.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/folder6_zps936aa92b.jpg.html)
I chose the above method primarily for its superior sound quality when making an upgrade decision 2 years ago, as I don't have a huge budget for gear (prefer to buy music instead) and you have to spend a lot to match a good file based system, also for the convenience of handling a large collection, it really is a joy - I would never consider another 'primary' playback method now and I come from the era when vinyl was king ;)
I don't even own a CDP anymore, just a couple of DAC's and a few amps.
(you can come out from behind the sofa now Marco, I've finished :lol:)
What I find interesting is the dismissal by people 'who don't want a computer', what's a CD player then? . . . but that's another discussion entirely and I'm not feeling that pedantic today :eyebrows:
Anyway, you don't have to have a traditional computer or what most would consider to be a computer, I certainly don't want one in my lounge on display and I don't think most folk would think my file server was a computer, sure doesn't look like one IMO? It measures 8" x 8" and currently its holding nearly 3,000 FLAC files, which can be played with a few swipes of the finger. I have access to around 30% of the full artwork as well (a work in progress) with just a swipe of the fingers.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/voyage_zpsfa43ff89.jpg
Looks good, Tim. What actually is it, and (if you don't mind my asking) how much does it cost?
Lol... :eyebrows:
Timbo,
What I find interesting is the dismissal by people 'who don't want a computer'...
The point is, though, you must need some sort of screen to operate the Voyage Audio unit? Or if it's got an in-built one, it must be so small as to be quite difficult to read...?
Many people, including me, don't want to stare at a screen, when listening to music, or require to use another interface (and essentially have yet another computer controlling a computer), whether that be a Tablet, mobile phone or whatever. I don't even own a Tablet or any form of 'Smartphone' for the purpose.
Essentially, therefore, the only time I want to stare at or use a screen, is when I'm posting on here, or watching the TV (which of course is an old CRT set, and so doesn't conform to the demands of new technology)! :D
Nah... Whack a CD, or LP, on is plenty good enough for me.
Marco.
Looks good, Tim. What actually is it, and (if you don't mind my asking) how much does it cost?
Its my own custom built jobby Joe, so you can't buy it off the shelf, maybe one day if I decide to sell them? Its a Windows 8 based FLAC file server with a 2TB drive based around an Intel DN2800MT board. Capable of holding over 5,000 redbook FLAC albums.
Some info here to give an idea http://www.bluedive.co.uk/musicserver/index.html
I'm running it with a linear PSU at the mo, not 12v battery. As for cost, well not sure exactly but well under a grand including all the software licences (Win8 and JRiver) and linear PSU. At a rough guess a bit less than the price of a Gucci fairy dust USB cable.
. . . don't want to stare at a screen, when listening to music
Hmmm, staring at a screen? I only need to look at what I'm choosing and then hit play, sit back and relax - I sure don't sit there like this, I save that for the porn!
http://images.rapgenius.com/420ff147321580d5ddb9a0aaab45749f.450x323x1.jpg
I'd wager you spend more time staring at a screen each day than I do too (unless I'm at work), which would understandably make you want to limit it when enjoying toons, so I totally get that bit.
Each to theirs though, I don't enjoy what you do and vice versa, its the music that counts anyway and getting the maximum out of what you enjoy and file based audio is where its at for me. I really don't consider what I have to be 'a computer', its just a playback transport hooked up to a DAC and its easier and simpler to use than a CDP and for me, much easier than a TT. The sound is none too shabby either ;)
I have had a separate DAC/transport since my second CD system. My first was a Sony CDP101 which I updated to the Sony 552ES(?) and 701 DAC (which I still have somewhere). Next came (IIRC) a Krell MD1 with Stax DAC, a Meridian 602/606, Goldmund Mimesis 36 (later part ex for a 36+ which I still use) with firstly a Spectral SDR 2000 DAC then a Goldmund Mimesis 20 (which I still have). So rather than change every couple of years I have owned 5 in almost 30 years.
I have had a few CD players in second systems too.
As a music lover who travelled abroad pretty well every week I embraced ripping my CDs when the first iPod came out, but never listened to ripped music streamed at home.
I first tried streaming at home a couple of years ago using that Wadia digital dock thingy into my DAC. I was quite pleased by the sound but it seemed pointless since it was no more convenient than playing a CD.
I have since tried various computer audio type methods, JRiver, iTunes and Meridian Sooloos. The problem for me is that I listen 95% to classical music and all the systems I have tried are mega laborious to get the meta data right/useful so the works play properly. The shortcomings are various and all very time consuming to fix. Sooloos is the most labour intensive and I find all systems really aimed solely at popular music formats, not surprisingly I suppose.
iTunes used to be very convenient to just put a CD (or double or triple CD) into a playlist labeled such that it is quick and easy to find (Mahler 5 Rattle for example). The latest version is aimed at the iTunes store /internet streaming and is not longer anywhere near as convenient to use in the way I used to. JRiver seems a touch better but not enough for me to keep a PC on my network. The Sooloos drove me to distraction. I am told it is superb for linking to new music and so forth but, frankly it isn't worth the aggro of spending best part of an hour thoroughly correcting meta data for every disc and its strengths are really only with pop music.
So I have some pop music ripped and my old version iTunes easily found classical stuff and have pretty well given up on computer music as an important source.
It obviously suits some people but my fairly well filed CDs and LPs are so easy for me to find that the balls ache associated with ripping and labelling such that I can both quickly find what I want to listen to and have it play the correct tracks in the correct order ain't worth it.
What I find interesting is the dismissal by people 'who don't want a computer', what's a CD player then? . . . but that's another discussion entirely and I'm not feeling that pedantic today :eyebrows:
I would consider a computer in colloquial language to at least be user programmable.. so a CD player is not. Some modern DACs might be, with some kind of digital filter, upsampling algo going on, usually in a Xilinx processor but you still are limited as to how to program it.
Anyway, you don't have to have a traditional computer or what most would consider to be a computer, I certainly don't want one in my lounge on display and I don't think most folk would think my file server was a computer, sure doesn't look like one IMO? It measures 8" x 8" and currently its holding nearly 3,000 FLAC files, which can be played with a few swipes of the finger. I have access to around 30% of the full artwork as well (a work in progress) with just a swipe of the fingers.
It headless, no mouse, keyboard or anything just a PSU attached - you just turn it on and select your music from a touchscreen tablet which lives on the sofa using the Gizmo app - just a remote control really, with the added bonus of showing you what's playing? Couldn't be simpler and I love it and as for sound quality per pound/value, well nothing I have heard can touch it to be frank. I always buy a physical item where I can, I don't like downloads preferring to do my own rips and scans of the artwork, before archiving the disc - redbook is perfect for me too and I have never enjoyed my music as much . . . ever :D
I have a bluetooth mouse and keyboard.. you have a remote display too with touchscreen mouse/keyboard built in. Pretty much the same as a wired display/touchscreen like so many windows 8 PCs in the shops.
How computers are presented has certainly changed these last few years but your computer fits right within that very same definition.
That's the pedant bit done with!
I do like things to be use specific if possible as each one should provide a much better user experience, efficiency of design etc are all a pleasure to experience. Computers can be very specific but often the ones we encouter are still pretty generalised except that the user has limited the software they've installed and on top of a general use OS.
CD players can be beautiful objects, a joy to use and an "everything hidden" approach to music is kind of defeating the point of my <b>HiFi</b> hobby! Music hobby and hifi hobby are two different things for me and I could easy enjoy the latter without the former.
Anyway, I'll be setting up an audio PC some time soon too - have had the Hush case for a long while, just need to update the motherboard and stuff when I've the cash. I'll be keeping a CD transport though too.
Next thing you know someone will be along to extol the virtues of a good all-in-one system...
That's where a few of us (particularly Martin and I) don't agree Justin. We don't see it as essential at all but understand why some might consider it so. I tried comparing Spotify with a well recorded album I had today and it was no contest. The album won hands down (1st issue pressing near mint of pink Floyd's Meddle album). This is largely due (I suspect) to the remastered (inferior) digital version on Spotify so it was an unfair contest tbh. However, the bells and whistles that come with Jriver etc still wouldn't tempt me or others away as its simple really, we dont want computers to figure in our listening pleasure in terms of a user interface. Do enough with the damn things to want all my eggs in one basket. I like the variety and tacttile nature of physical formats and no-one is going to convince me of any night and day sonic benefits when compared to a decent well set up analogue system or to something like the superb Accuphase CDP. It boils down to personal preference and whether you think that your way IS essential to you. Horses for courses. One is not better than another when it comes to listening pleasure, all things being equal. I still use Spotify to search out new CDs and try before I buy. It's invaluable for that.
However, the bells and whistles that come with Jriver etc still wouldn't tempt me or others away as its simple really, we dont want computers to figure in our listening pleasure in terms of a user interface.
Dat's it in a nutshell, really :)
Marco.
P.S Who's Justin? [See your first sentence] :scratch:
Yo, tidy-boy...
Hmmm, staring at a screen? I only need to look at what I'm choosing and then hit play, sit back and relax - I sure don't sit there like this, I save that for the porn!
http://images.rapgenius.com/420ff147321580d5ddb9a0aaab45749f.450x323x1.jpg
Aye, and your hands wouldn't be up there either!! :D
Btw, did you get round to fitting the special 'windscreen wipers'?
I'd wager you spend more time staring at a screen each day than I do too (unless I'm at work), which would understandably make you want to limit it when enjoying toons, so I totally get that bit.
Exacto! However, the men occasionally undo the straps and let me out... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dat's it in a nutshell, really :)
Marco.
P.S Who's Justin? [See your first sentence] :scratch:
Soz...responding to post #39 and forgot to quote it :doh:
Ah, gotcha now! :)
Marco.
. . . but your computer fits right within that very same definition.
Can't agree with that in my case as it cannot be used like a traditional computer without modification, or the addition of peripherals. Nor was it ever intended to be, the components were selected purely for use as a music server and the software is striped right back so all you can do is turn it on/off select music to play, then start/stop/pause it. I interact with it just via the Gizmo app and its sole purpose is to play music and nothing else. If I wanted to use it like a computer it would need removal from where it is, peripherals attaching and the software would need to be re-installed so it would perform like a 'traditional computer'. So no, its not like a Windows 8 PC in the shops with a touchscreen display at all - in fact its nothing like it.
Personally I have never considered enjoying music a 'hobby' either, I know some do, but its part of my DNA and gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morning.
I do however agree that Spotify is not something that could ever replace a good file based system (or a good CDP for that matter), the quality is just not there, even with a Premium account. I can immediately tell the difference between Spotify and one of my FLAC files, its a marked difference and not something I could live with for serious enjoyment of music. I use it for discovery only and its superb for that, or for those albums you just can't quite justify buying but would like to hear every now and then.
As for a good CDP, well I have repeated this numerous times over the years but folk often forget to comment on it, you have to spend a lot of money to equal the SQ of a good file based audio system from a traditional CDP transport and frankly I would rather spend that money on music, or live shows (that's music shows Marco :bum:)
But as has been pointed out, its all down to personal preference and don't beat up on us file based audio lovers, as I get the feeling there can be a tendency toward a bit of snobbery at times. I'm just a simple music lover at the end of the day, the gear is important but the music is essential ;)
EDIT:
Blimey, there have been a bunch of posts whilst typing the above! Marco, can you send me the link again for those 'special' windscreen wipers, I seem to have misplaced it :lol:
As for a good CDP, well I have repeated this numerous times over the years but folk often forget to comment on it, you have to spend a lot of money to equal the SQ of a good filed based system from a traditional CDP transport
I completely agree with that.
It's one of the reasons why (aside from my dislike of computers, or 'modern technology audio-based devices', in your case, to keep you happy, Tim :eyebrows: ), since from the dawn of computer audio, I've owned a CDP with a top-notch transport mech: i.e. one that can get the information from a CD to the DAC as intact as a music streamer, therefore there is no incentive, sonically, for me to go down the streaming route.
That, and the fact that I much prefer buying physical music media, on vinyl or CD, and so have no real requirement for music files, and I'm sure you can understand why I'm rather apathetic towards the whole computer audio thing :)
Marco, can you send me the link again for those 'special' windscreen wipers, I seem to have misplaced it :lol:
Worry not, I put some in with your usual order of edible nipple clamps and electronic adult-nappy wetness indicators :thumbsup:
Marco.
Can't agree with that in my case as it cannot be used like a traditional computer without modification, or the addition of peripherals. Nor was it ever intended to be, the components were selected purely for use as a music server and the software is striped right back so all you can do is turn it on/off select music to play, then start/stop/pause it. I interact with it just via the Gizmo app and its sole purpose is to play music and nothing else. If I wanted to use it like a computer it would need removal from where it is, peripherals attaching and the software would need to be re-installed so it would perform like a 'traditional computer'. So no, its not like a Windows 8 PC in the shops with a touchscreen display at all - in fact its nothing like it.
Personally I have never considered enjoying music a 'hobby' either, I know some do, but its part of my DNA and gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morning.
I do however agree that Spotify is not something that could ever replace a good file based system (or a good CDP for that matter), the quality is just not there, even with a Premium account. I can immediately tell the difference between Spotify and one of my FLAC files, its a marked difference and not something I could live with for serious enjoyment of music. I use it for discovery only and its superb for that, or for those albums you just can't quite justify buying but would like to hear every now and then.
As for a good CDP, well I have repeated this numerous times over the years but folk often forget to comment on it, you have to spend a lot of money to equal the SQ of a good file based audio system from a traditional CDP transport and frankly I would rather spend that money on music, or live shows (that's music shows Marco :bum:)
But as has been pointed out, its all down to personal preference and don't beat up on us file based audio lovers, as I get the feeling there can be a tendency toward a bit of snobbery at times. I'm just a simple music lover at the end of the day, the gear is important but the music is essential ;)
EDIT:
Blimey, there have been a bunch of posts whilst typing the above! Marco, can you send me the link again for those 'special' windscreen wipers, I seem to have misplaced it :lol:
I think that's a very level headed and down to earth response Tim; I don't see any snobbery link in the thread though, just people's personal experiences or preferences. Sometimes (more often than not perhaps) it's the sole experience of an individual that can lead to them putting up barriers against change when their personal preferences are threatened or experiences simply too limited to comment on an alternative. I don't really think that's the case here though as most of the responses are from people who (mostly) have heard or experienced both format types. I agree that it does take a good CDP to match decent file based audio, but by the very same argument, the file based audio has to be good to match a decent CDP let alone a decent analogue set up. Not snobbery, just plain fact. When it comes to a certain level whatever the format, the quality and mastering of the music is often the only real differential in the format equation and we lose sight of that at our peril.
I agree that it does take a good CDP to match decent file based audio, but by the very same argument, the file based audio has to be good to match a decent CDP let alone a decent analogue set up. Not snobbery, just plain fact. When it comes to a certain level whatever the format, the quality and mastering of the music is often the only real differential in the format equation and we lose sight of that at our peril.
Totally agree with that, especially about mastering being the defining factor when you reach a certain standard of playback quality.
The snobbery comment wasn't directed at anything here in particular, more a general comment about some peoples perception of file based audio (FBA). One of my favourite quotes from AoS was by a now non-posting member who proudly declared "I take the sonic superiority of CD and vinyl for granted" (that's a direct quote as I saved it). The trouble is when challenged that person hadn't even heard a bad file based audio system, let alone a good one! Declarations like that I find damaging to progress and a lot of people read comments like that and then go and repeat them without taking the time to investigate themselves and accept it as gospel.
It's an old thread now that I started around 2 years ago I think, about how I first happened upon FBA and it was more by accident than design - I was also as sceptical as the next man at that point and fully intent on buying a top flight CDP. However, when I get sceptical I try things out for myself as I don't believe what folk tell me, unless I can fully trust their judgement and even then I still have to satisfy myself. So I wanted to discover what the fuss was about and spent some weekends going round dealers, pitting a lowly Samsung netbook with foobar2000 and a Caiman DAC against some pretty hefty gear and was rather taken aback by the results, as were some of the dealers. Two years ago FBA was not as well known as it is now and some dealers didn't even know what I was doing or asking of them believe it or not - what's a FLAC file was a fairly common response.
Anyway, long story short I decided it was the way to go 'for my needs' and I have not looked back. I do admit I am lucky enough to be able to build and configure a system myself, which can return results way beyond a comparably priced CDP and then there's the convenience factor too, especially if you like tidy and have a large library. But it really isn't beyond the realms of most that post here I suspect, especially those that can turn their hand to soldering or setting up a turntable. It just takes patience, research and testing and there is a wealth of information now on site likes computeraudiophile to help. But you have to want to do it, as there is the ripping task which seems to turn a lot off - why I don't know, I mean how much cleaning gets done to an LP? Rip once and forget, remembering to keep a backup and you are sorted . . . forever. Of course if you can't build it yourself there are plenty of alternatives too, but then the cost/performance balance isn't so different. I was very impressed by the LINN DS systems, but they are not cheap.
I do sometimes get the impression that some of the dismissiveness for FBA is based on a lack of knowledge and fear, a bit like a comfort blanket holding on to what you know, which is a shame as there is no need to fear it. If you think of it as a computer, then that's all it will ever be (and we know how much people hate them!). But view it as a playback transport and try to get the best out of it that you can with an open-mind and its startling what you can achieve without the need for deep pockets. I have come a long way in the two years since those first tests around dealer showrooms and I continue to raise those eyebrows too.
I'm also rather cynical about some peoples motives when they dismiss FBA too ;)
Can't agree with that in my case as it cannot be used like a traditional computer without modification, or the addition of peripherals. Nor was it ever intended to be, the components were selected purely for use as a music server and the software is striped right back so all you can do is turn it on/off select music to play, then start/stop/pause it. I interact with it just via the Gizmo app and its sole purpose is to play music and nothing else. If I wanted to use it like a computer it would need removal from where it is, peripherals attaching and the software would need to be re-installed so it would perform like a 'traditional computer'. So no, its not like a Windows 8 PC in the shops with a touchscreen display at all - in fact its nothing like it.
You can run a full version of Linux from a USB drive or a CD no HD or SDD required. So I'd consider even a PC without a harddrive installed as a full PC as it is fully user configerable dependent on the software you've installed. Plug in a USB keyboard if you like I do with my desk top PC which I hardly use (hence keyboard isn't constantly plugged in). Put the right things on that USB stick and you can then control from a tablet via wifi via some terminal remote software.
Unless of course you mean you've gone very deep and have some special BIOS which cuts it down on a hardware level?
Semantics I guess but to me it's definately a normal PC - that you've cut out some windows components (as per my laptop even) and have some particular software boot up straight away is really just hiding that fact. Even an ATM is just a PC running some specific software - when they go wrong you see them rebooting Windows Server 2003 or something - it's a normal PC in an unusual box with an unusual keyboard connected to some dispenser via the serial port. There are some RAID SAN/NAS systems out there which use standard server motherboards and run custom linux via a flash drive whilst there are others which are based on removable controllers with RAID specific hardware chipsets etc. The former are still PCs in my view, the latter are not.
How powerful is your Atom motherboard by the way? As I said, I have a great fanless case but need to replace the very old 800MHz Via chipset motherboard but want to go secondhand.. Not sure what software I'd actually want to run though, I'd rather it still retained some kind of computer functionality to play internet radio, youtube, download people's rare vinyl rips etc. At the moment it's a pain plugging in my laptop as and when.
The problem I have with FBA is more a mental one;
- the faffing about setting up the PC in the first place (hence why I've put it off for about 3 or 4 years from buying the PC!)
- thinking of file systems, of the database type system of selection and representation etc etc is absolutely NOT what I want to be doing with music if I can help it. It puts me into a frame of mind which is not creative - it puts me in a mindset of logic and function.
Physicality of a disc is very natural and flowing and creative and ... human.
I think there is definately a difference in natural mindset between those who are happy with FBA interfaces and those who are not.
I have the same thing when I'm mucking about with making music (if you can call it that..) - some people make music happily entirely within software on a PC. My music PC is effectively just a recorder with extras and I prefer to make the music outside of the computer with other physical hardware etc.
Its my own custom built jobby Joe, so you can't buy it off the shelf, maybe one day if I decide to sell them? Its a Windows 8 based FLAC file server with a 2TB drive based around an Intel DN2800MT board. Capable of holding over 5,000 redbook FLAC albums.
Some info here to give an idea http://www.bluedive.co.uk/musicserver/index.html
I'm running it with a linear PSU at the mo, not 12v battery. As for cost, well not sure exactly but well under a grand including all the software licences (Win8 and JRiver) and linear PSU. At a rough guess a bit less than the price of a Gucci fairy dust USB cable.
Thanks Tim, that would explain my lack of success in trying to find it on Google!
I'm trying out various possibilities wrt to computer-based audio, mainly because my CDs are rapidly becoming unmanageable.
Semantics I guess but to me it's definately a normal PC
Semantics for sure, as your definition of 'a normal PC' is very different to mine. I very much doubt the average Jo would look at my server and call it a normal PC either, especially if they tried to use it as such. I'd bet the average Jo would also reply "What's Linux then?" The point is you would have to do something to it and change its core functionality to make it operate like a normal PC, as at the moment it won't and only plays music, which is all its designed to do. Pontificate all you want, but if I gave that to a mate and said use that like a normal PC they wouldn't be able too, unless they had the skill to reconfigure it. Admittedly it wouldn't take much more than a quick trip around the BIOS, attaching a screen, optical drive, keyboard and mouse then a re-install of an O/S, Linux or whatever and it could then be used like a normal PC.
My current board as stated earlier is a DN2800T, but I have just bought a Gigabyte GA-H81N which has been previously discussed elsewhere. This has a dedicated USB output optimised they claim for audio which allows isolation of the USB 5V power output via the BIOS. Its also on its own bus allegedly, so perfect for a DAC. I haven't decided on the CPU yet, probably one if the T rated i3 series with a 35W TDP.
Thanks Tim, that would explain my lack of success in trying to find it on Google!
I'm trying out various possibilities wrt to computer-based audio, mainly because my CDs are rapidly becoming unmanageable.
I know that unmanageable feeling well Joe.
The case is a Wesena, who were I believe bought out by Streacom - the closest to it now I think is this Streacom Mini Home Theatre Aluminium Case - F1C EVO Silver (http://www.scan.co.uk/products/streacom-f1c-evo-silver-mini-home-theatre-aluminium-chassis) but mine is an adaptation of the original Wesena and currently still only a prototype.
Anyway, we best get back on track to the OP now as we have gone a little off course - apologies Paul :o
Mark Grant
15-02-2014, 10:24
I have never enjoyed my music as much . . . ever :D
That's all that matters, when you are listening to the music rather than the system you have arrived :)
That's all that matters, when you are listening to the music rather than the system you have arrived :)
I'm there for sure Mark.
The thing with me is that I have always felt like an impostor here as gear doesn't really interest me that much and music to me isn't something I consider to be a hobby, its a way of life and I'm probably a frustrated musician deep down. I could care less about the latest bargain on eBay or a fantastic new £600 USB cable, to me that's all a bit mad but each to their own and if you enjoy that and the 'hobby' gives you pleasure then work away and enjoy it. I have reached the stage when I have realised that good enough actually is good enough and that day arrived when I put a pair of Harbeth SHL5's in my system and I agree with a lot of Alan Shaw's philosophy on music playback and the laws of diminishing returns. I am totally content with my sound and can concentrate on what I enjoy, which is just listening to the music, discovering new artists and attending live shows, as that's where my interest lies . . . just the music itself.
At 55 I have accepted my hearing isn't what it was when I was 25 and that its only ever going to decline. I really love the sound I have right now, which exceeds anything that went before it and actually cost me significantly less than my last system. To be honest many so called high-end systems just sound different to me, not better . . . so which is which? I have heard some gear that costs the price of a house and I couldn't wait to get back to listen to my system, but again each to their own personal preference as we all like different sounds as well as different music - all part of the fun.
So here's the thing, if somebody actually gave me the price of something like an Accuphase CDP (no idea what they cost) or even a high-end DAC and said there you go Tim, spend that on your music and buy whatever you want, but you can only spend it on something to do with music or Hi-Fi. I would say thanks very much and go right out and buy a plane ticket to Austin for SXSW and hop over to Nashville whilst I was at it, to check that out too. I'd see as many live shows as I could, bring back as many albums as I could physically carry and an empty wallet. Then I'd sit back and enjoy the music and the memories, perfectly content with my lot and no doubt wearing a big cheesy grin :D
Nice one, Tim. I'm in the same zone these days, as I very rarely make any changes to my system. When I've got spare dosh to spend, I have a think about where I could make any genuine improvements, and usually end up just spending the money instead on music!
Incidentally, it helps when you've got a pair of speakers that get the fundamentals of the music right, and simply allow you to 'relax into' performances, without sitting there scrutinising the sound, and I know the Harbs do that for you, just as the Tannoys and Celestions do that for me :)
Marco.
. . . and usually end up just spending the money instead on music!
:thumbsup:
I'm a bit old school too and have always believed the speakers and room make the most difference to what we process through our lug holes. I can't do an awful lot with my room, as its not mine, but I've got the rest right :)
:thumbsup:
I'm a bit old school too and have always believed the speakers and room make the most difference to what we process through our lug holes. I can't do an awful lot with my room, as its not mine, but I've got the rest right :)
That's true Tim but there's still a reasonable sonic difference between sources, even digital sources. The way I look at it, you get the speakers as right as you can for the room you have before you worry too much about sorting the source that gives you what you like. Must admit, I'm at a similar point where it's the music I enjoy, and discovering music from the past I never visited first time round. The formats and convenience (or lack of it) are all really secondary to whether you enjoy listening to music and the simpler (in my book) that you can make that experience, the better.
Whilst we'll agree to differ on what is simpler, Paul, I personally find getting the vinyl I want to listen to massively more complex than a laptop.
Reading vinyl spines with hundreds of records is not good unless you have developed and can be arsed with a good filing system. The laptop user will find what he wants and have it playing in a fraction of the time. Good archiving system or not.
Same applies to a plethora of CDs, only slightly less so.
Whilst we'll agree to differ on what is simpler, Paul, I personally find getting the vinyl I want to listen to massively more complex than a laptop.
Reading vinyl spines with hundreds of records is not good unless you have developed and can be arsed with a good filing system. The laptop user will find what he wants and have it playing in a fraction of the time. Good archiving system or not.
Granted Justin but it's' still not a problem as I have archived everything by genre and alphabetically now plus I have all the info on each album at my fingertips. Yes, you can tap away and get the same from a file based system, but personally, it's not for me and probably never will be. You work in software Justin so it's all second nature to you so understandably you feel comfortable using that for its benefits. I accept that and good for you.
I recognise it's benefits but still consider PCs, laptops and all the extraneous interfaces as something I simply don't want OR need. For me, setting vinyl up and maintaining it is no problem...it's what I do for others so it had better not be a problem! I rather enjoy all that side of things. I enjoy my music collection enormously and it's expanding all the time, so ultimately that is all that matters for me, not necessarily the tech I use to get there. My choice of music means almost all of it is available either on LP or CD, so again, no problems. It's really not something I lose sleep over.
And it's not as if I don't endure searching for vinyl... or CD/BluRay discs every now and then.
Searching for vinyl on a Friday night after a skinful can be hard work in extremis, though, LOL.
It's really not something I lose sleep over.
And nor should we.
Its been demonstrated many times over in numerous threads around the forum, that the vinyl fans and the file based audio fans are often like chalk and cheese and neither will ever convince the other to change camps, unless they choose to themselves. But who cares? I don't understand the fascination for vinyl despite growing up with it, but that goes both ways and I think it may have to be a very cold day in hell before Marco plays most of his music on a computer based system. We are never going to agree, but we all agree we love the music each system produces, so that's a win in my book. I do however remember reading a very ancient post where Marco declared he wanted and intended to invest in a FBA system at some stage ;)
The only thing I do get bent out of shape about is when people claim one is sonically superior to the other, as that's moot and depends entirely on the individual system. Both can produce sublime audio that most people wouldn't be able to determine a difference (or even care), apart from any clicks and pops, which are a bit of a give-away.
I do however remember reading a very ancient post where Marco declared he wanted and intended to invest in a FBA system at some stage ;)
I've toyed with the idea many times, Tim. However, much like in my previous post, I've ended up just investing the funds instead on music, especially when considering the amount of money (and effort) I'd have to spend on an FBA system that would compete, sonically, on a level playing field with my T/T and CDP! :eek:
That would be a prerequisite for me, as otherwise, if my FBA source sounded inferior to my other music sources, I'd simply end up not listening to it. However, the real nail in the coffin of an FBA system, for me, is my preference for using physical music media.
Trouble is, not only do I love listening to the music itself, but I enjoy owning it - and, at the end of the day, for my collection also to have a monetary value. This is especially true when it comes to vinyl, as the music aside, I get great pleasure out of owning a sizable selection of rare and collectable LPs (of music that I love).
FBA simply doesn't function on that level, and so that is why for me, regardless of anything else, it will always have limited appeal.
Marco.
I'm not one to get hung up on having stuff, I could live out of a hotel room, i'd quite like it. But my record collection is still a bit special to me, it has a uniquness to it, like a collection of art or something. You can't replace that with a computer.
I'm not one to get hung up on having stuff, I could live out of a hotel room, i'd quite like it. But my record collection is still a bit special to me, it has a uniquness to it, like a collection of art or something. You can't replace that with a computer.
And I wouldn't want to either; my record collection spans the first LP I bought (the White Album) to the last (a set of Smiths albums) and I wouldn't want to replace that lot. But my CD collection is much less 'special' in terms of the physical items; if I wasn't so lazy I'd have ripped the lot to a computer and put the actual discs out of sight somewhere. As it is, I did about 50 before giving up. I should be able to do the whole lot now I'm no longer working, so maybe I'll get round to it, as the tottering piles atop my speakers and the boxes overflowing from the shelves are starting to annoy me.
Funny. I even enjoy owning CDs!
There's something about a physical object that brings back all sorts of subtle emotions and connections with both the music and the object itself, an extention sometimes of the artist or the style of music or the label.. There's design in there that's someone's thought about and is all part of the package.
Album art on a screen is like an artifact in a museum's glass case or sculpture you can't touch or a historical room you have to observe from behind a rope.
Good analogy, Nat. I feel precisely the same way towards album art. Oh, and I like owning CDs, too! :)
Furthermore, if records are housed neatly inside proper storage units, and you have lots of them adorning the walls, say in a dedicated room, such as Trevor Nelson has, shown below, I think it looks really cool (much in the same way as I love the look of shelves full of books in a library):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/36/387a.jpg
Incidentally, his 'weapon of choice' is an LP12 (but I can forgive him for that) ;)
Marco.
Nah, I don't need things to look at (or hold), I just need to hear the music ;)
Mind you, a few choice framed album covers hanging on a wall is I agree very cool - just half a dozen is enough. I'm not into hoarding anything to be frank.
http://retrorenovation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/art-vinyl-record-frames.jpg
Have you been having 'liaisons' in Alex UK's purple boudoir? :eek: :D
Marco.
Have you been having 'liaisons' in Alex UK's purple boudoir? :eek: :D
Marco.
http://419.bittenus.com/11/1/sssh.jpg
Nah, I don't need things to look at (or hold), I just need to hear the music ;)
Mind you, a few choice framed album covers hanging on a wall is I agree very cool - just half a dozen is enough. I'm not into hoarding anything to be frank.
http://retrorenovation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/art-vinyl-record-frames.jpg
Just print out images of the covers then - much much cheaper!
Whilst I probably could admit to hoarding tendancies (!), from memory I think you are at the other extreme so hoarding to you probably needs to be seen in that context.. a music collection is not hoarding unless you keep the stuff you hate or buy records and never have an intention to listen to them but you can't bear not to have them nor let them go.
WOStantonCS100
18-02-2014, 09:28
...a music collection is not hoarding unless you keep the stuff you hate or buy records and never have an intention to listen to them but you can't bear not to have them nor let them go.
It's funny. I probably know more folks who hoard music files they don't like or have no interest in listening to more than once (because storage space is cheap), than I know folks who do the same with physical media. For me, physical storage space is too precious to waste on keeping albums, CDs and tapes I have little to no interest in, or much worse, don't even like. That stuff gets eliminated from the collection rather quickly.
Anyway...
CDP or CDT/DAC? There's something very comforting to me knowing that when the laser (and/or) laser electronics, spindle motor or tray motor goes ta-ta's up I can still hang on to the good sounding DAC. However, in the case of the Meridian, PS Audio, etc. one can just replace the optical rom drive and keep going. Nice. Better still, IMHO, if it's reading and caching the bits as data, re-clocking it. I view outboard DACS like phono carts. Now, we have options/choice for our digital front ends, as well. I like that.
I find the view that those who use file based audio playback spend their listening time riveted to the computer screen rather amusing. I make my selection, click on play and my screen turns off 5 seconds later. :scratch:
As for the, I spend all day with computers and I don’t want to spend my leisure time with them pretty strange, given some of the most vocal in this area are some of the most prolific posters. ;)
First of all, John, there's a big difference between *having* to be near a computer all day (as I do, with owning this site, and others who may post from their work premises), and choosing to use a computer, when listening to music.
As I'm in the former camp, which there's nothing I can do about, unless I neglected my duties, in terms of running AoS - and so when it comes to listening music, I want to divorce myself completely from using any computers!
Furthermore, just as you're not 'glued to' your computer when playing music, neither am I when on here. When I'm not posting, my laptop sits switched on and logged onto the forum, but largely lies unused, whilst I'm either working or listening to music, watching TV or whatever... Those are the sorts of choices you can make when working from home ;)
I think you'll just have to respect the fact that we all do things differently, and so no amount of 'persuading' by either camp is going to get the other to change their minds, especially diehards like me, who will be using physical music media until I'm carried away in a coffin!!
:exactly:
Marco.
First of all, John, there's a big difference between *having* to be near a computer all day (as I do, with owning this site, and others who may post from their work premises), and choosing to use a computer, when listening to music.
As I'm in the former camp, which there's nothing I can do about, unless I neglect my duties in terms of running AoS - and so when it comes to listening music, I want to divorce myself completely from using any computers!
Furthermore, just as you're not 'glued to' your computer when playing music, neither am I when on here. When I'm not posting, my laptop sits switched on and logged onto the forum, but largely lies unused, whilst I'm either working or listening to music, watching TV or whatever... Those are the sorts of choices you can make when working from home ;)
I think you'll just have to respect the fact that we all do things differently, and so no amount of 'persuading' by either camp is going to get the other to change their minds, especially diehards like me, who will be using physical music media until I'm carried away in a coffin!!
:exactly:
Marco.
+1
I also find it amusing that it genuinely seems to rankle some that not everyone wants to join the file based bandwagon...a sort of audio ostracisation or a snobbery associated with a different camp of media choice which is an irrelevance imho and distracts from the "purpose". Listening to music is what matters to me, not necessarily what format that it's coming from, but having a starting point of many LPs and CDs it makes less sense to start over again than make the most of what I have and for many, this is the basis of their (similar) choice. Having the capability to stream or store via laptop is still there should I ever feel the need, but to date, I haven't.
We're singing from the same hymn sheet, Paul, especially this bit:
I also find it amusing that it genuinely seems to rankle some that not everyone wants to join the file based bandwagon...
Indeed! I often feel that the FBA crew, as it were (and I discount Tim in this), snigger condescendingly and look down with disdain at the likes of you and I, who prefer using physical media and traditional forms of audio equipment, because we haven't 'got with the programme' and/or 'entered the 21st century', or because we're not 'modern enough'.
I don't know about you, but I've never been the type to be pressurised into embracing new technology, simply to be 'up to date'. Such considerations are completely irrelevant for me. What *matters* is whether new technology introduced is 100% better for my needs than the older technology it replaced!
If not, then quite simply, I will not embrace its use, and if that makes me an intransigent technophobe, in the eyes of FBA crew or the 'gadget freaks', then so be it. I don't give a monkey's toss!! :eyebrows:
At the same time, I'm not anti-technology, and so if something new in audio were to come along that totally outperformed the equipment I'm using now, and crucially, which appealed to my sensibilities, I would give its use serious consideration. Therefore, like you, it doesn't matter whether equipment is new or old, or whether music comes on a vinyl record or a file, as long as whatever it is fulfils my core requirements as an audio and music enthusiast.
It is *that* which will always be the bottom line for me, not keeping up to date with the latest technological trends, simply to be 'fashionable'. In fact, it rather appeals to me to rebel against what is considered as 'current', simply to be different and not conform to the 'norm'! ;)
Marco.
I find the view that those who use file based audio playback spend their listening time riveted to the computer screen rather amusing. I make my selection, click on play and my screen turns off 5 seconds later. :scratch:
As for the, I spend all day with computers and I don’t want to spend my leisure time with them pretty strange, given some of the most vocal in this area are some of the most prolific posters. ;)
For me, it's not the idea of staring at a computer screen but the mindset, the brain patterns if you will, that continues on from using the PC for one thing and then using the PC and the same file based system to manipulate yet more virtual objects, representations etc.
It's like my girlfriend was saying the other day about cycling (and also some games she plays on the iPad) that as a writer it's just so great to do an activity which uses a completely different part of your brain.
It's the same with getting out of the virtual/conceptual computer world and back into real, instinctive, natural world with real physical things that your brain and body are so naturally happy with. Must be similar to a musician who sits for hours alone practicing their real instrument and getting in touch with it, compared to someone behind a computer screen running soft synths in Logic all day.
As for spending all day posting, it can be an addiction or bad habbit (not that I am necessarily one of those people although sometimes feel I am) and even MORE reason to break from it when listening to music. I've taken months long breaks from forums to great effect - get so much more done, especially hifi-wise and feel even more in touch with music etc (then I feel a lot of pent-up unexpressed Hifi nerdism build and it needs releasing again).
It's the same with getting out of the virtual/conceptual computer world and back into real, instinctive, natural world with real physical things that your brain and body are so naturally happy with.
That's also it in a nutshell for me. The former world I wish to inhabit for the minimum amount time possible, in order to maximise my time spent in the latter (REAL world), as that is what makes me human.
Here's a question for folks to ponder: if you have the option of texting, emailing, or calling your best friend (the old-fashioned way), to ask or tell them something that requires explaining in a little detail, and time is not an issue, which method of contact would you most instinctively use?
Marco.
That's also it in a nutshell for me. The former world I wish to inhabit for the minimum amount time possible, in order to maximise my time spent in the latter (REAL world), as that is what makes me human.
Here's a question for folks to ponder: if you have the option of texting, emailing, or calling your best friend (the old-fashioned way), to ask or tell them something that requires explaining in a little detail, and time is not an issue, which method of contact would you most instinctively use?
Marco.
I think I fell into the reactionary old duffers club some time ago. I still write letters……:eyebrows:
I don’t have a mobile.
I’ve made three phone calls in the last year on our land line.
We don’t have a TV.
I don’t have a car.
I don’t have an ipad or anything similar.
I do have email. I rarely use it.
I’ve got lots of computers though and all bar the machine I’m using for this are for audio, be that listening or server development.
No wonder my friends are ducks, chickens, goats and sheep. :doh::D
We do have a radio transmitter, mainly because the internet and phone are unreliable and you can’t always count on being able to get any vehicle out of the valley; fire and medical emergencies are a big deal here. :(
In fact, it rather appeals to me to rebel against what is considered as 'current', simply to be different and not conform to the 'norm'! ;)
Now this bit I like :)
my friends are ducks, chickens, goats and sheep.
And this bit I like too :)
In the interests of science, I have banned myself from using the laptop - since last Friday now. Ban will last til this Friday.
Does anyone fancy answering my question? :)
Marco.
That's also it in a nutshell for me. The former world I wish to inhabit for the minimum amount time possible, in order to maximise my time spent in the latter (REAL world), as that is what makes me human.
Here's a question for folks to ponder: if you have the option of texting, emailing, or calling your best friend (the old-fashioned way), to ask or tell them something that requires explaining in a little detail, and time is not an issue, which method of contact would you most instinctively use?
Marco.
Well, I'd call him, but that's because I'm an old bloke. My daughters would probably contact their friends via Facebook, or set up a Skype session. I can't remember the last time either used our landline phone.
Does anyone fancy answering my question? :)
Marco.
I'd either call, text or email them, and arrange to meet them in the pub face to face for a chat :eyebrows:
I'd call, but I don't see the relevance of it to this debate :scratch:
I use the computers in my home as tools, for entertainment purposes and to contact the many friends I've made via my internet meanderings. Frankly it's not often I give the technology a second thought these days (this hasn't always been the case), that is until it stops working, then I go all Monty Python on whichever unfortunate piece of technology happens to be having a bad day. Me berating my poor, unfortunate lappy for having the audacity to crash is guaranteed to send Jo into fits of giggles and see me slinking off into a corner to lick my wounds... :D
Does anyone fancy answering my question? :)
Marco.
Make a call obviously a text is just what it says it is SMS (short message service), unless of course it's after 9.00pm or before 10.00am at the weekends :nono:
Yeah make a call. Text on the rare occasion it is appropriate. As my old man used to say: 'the phone is for messages and emergencies only.'
WOStantonCS100
19-02-2014, 01:54
That's also it in a nutshell for me. The former world I wish to inhabit for the minimum amount time possible, in order to maximise my time spent in the latter (REAL world), as that is what makes me human.
Here's a question for folks to ponder: if you have the option of texting, emailing, or calling your best friend (the old-fashioned way), to ask or tell them something that requires explaining in a little detail, and time is not an issue, which method of contact would you most instinctively use?
Marco.
I'd much rather invite people over. :grouphug: It's the lost art of face to face communication. Don't get me wrong, luv forums and such. It's a great way to talk to folks from all over; but, it doesn't beat good ol' man to man. Phone calls second. All else is a necessary perhaps; but, distant third prone to misinterpretation and missed inflections.
I'd much rather invite people over. :grouphug: It's the lost art of face to face communication. Don't get me wrong, luv forums and such. It's a great way to talk to folks from all over; but, it doesn't beat good ol' man to man. Phone calls second. All else is a necessary perhaps; but, distant third prone to misinterpretation and missed inflections.
+1
jandl100
19-02-2014, 05:52
I guess I'm happiest with face to face or, strangely, email.
I've never been that cumfy with that new fangled contraption called the telephone! :)
The Grand Wazoo
19-02-2014, 07:15
Send me a fax or don't bother me at all!
I'm glad that we all seem to have kept in touch with our humanness, as an overuse of, and/or too much reliance on technology, can sometimes erode it...... ;)
In answer to Dave's point regarding the relevance of the question, it is simply that in the same way as interacting with physical media, when listening to music, makes me feel 'human' (as in many cases it puts me in touch with fond memories of my past), so does talking to people either face-to-face or on the phone. Therefore, I shun any form of 'virtual' contact with my fellow human beings, in favour of the former, whenever possible.
Even when surfing the 'net, and I wish to enquire about something I've seen for sale on a specific website, if a company provides a telephone number in their contact details, I'll always use that rather than sending an email, as I much prefer to speak to another human being. I also find that better results (in my favour) are often obtained that way!
Indeed, those of you who have contacted me via PM here will know that rather than sitting typing reams of prose, in order to deal with a specific query, I'll ask the sender to call me instead, providing that he or she is in the UK, so that we can have a proper chat - and that method of communication enables both parties to get to the crux of the matter much quicker! :exactly:
I guess that the point of all this is that, for me, playing CDs and records is an altogether more satisfyingly 'human' experience than accessing music files on a computer - and I'm a very 'human' kind of guy.
Marco.
The other thing I used to like, regarding the sensory experience, was wandering into a record store to take my time browsing through the (back then) huge collections, admiring the artwork, listening with the headphones (usually a technics deck provided!). It got me out for the afternoon for a walk, it made me interact with people and it was enjoyable. None of that applies much to file based downloads except being able to call up the artwork. Strangely, it does look as though those days might be returning, at least as far as vinyl goes, but try as I might, I simply cannot get one of the darned things to squeeze into the CD tray...:scratch:
Mmm the smell of record shops.
I guess that the point of all this is that, for me, playing CDs and records is an altogether more satisfyingly 'human' experience than accessing music files on a computer - and I'm a very 'human' kind of guy.
I read this line and uttered out loud "But what's the difference . . . surely its just music"
I just don't get it :scratch: but hey ho, I don't get rap music either. Off to play some Ryan Adams who I really do get.
I like liquorice allsorts too ;)
WOStantonCS100
19-02-2014, 19:33
The other thing I used to like, regarding the sensory experience, was wandering into a record store to take my time browsing through the (back then) huge collections, admiring the artwork, listening with the headphones (usually a technics deck provided!). It got me out for the afternoon for a walk, it made me interact with people and it was enjoyable. None of that applies much to file based downloads except being able to call up the artwork. Strangely, it does look as though those days might be returning, at least as far as vinyl goes, but try as I might, I simply cannot get one of the darned things to squeeze into the CD tray...:scratch:
What you need is an LD/CD transport. I bet you can get vinyl into one of those. :D
jandl100
19-02-2014, 20:07
I read this line and uttered out loud "But what's the difference . . . surely its just music"
I just don't get it :scratch: but hey ho, I don't get rap music either. Off to play some Ryan Adams who I really do get.
I like liquorice allsorts too ;)
Marmite, I can't abide Marmite. :nono:
I love coconut :drool: - my wife can't stand it. :scratch:
Who says these things have to make sense? :D
I read this line and uttered out loud "But what's the difference . . . surely its just music"
You're concentrating on the wrong bit, Tim. The clue is here, noting in particular the bit in blue:
In answer to Dave's point regarding the relevance of the question, it is simply that in the same way as interacting with physical media, when listening to music, makes me feel 'human' (as in many cases it puts me in touch with fond memories of my past)...
The point is, it's not "just music".......... :doh:
I have many records and CDs that I've owned since I was a teenager, and so they are tangible snapshots of my past, which evoke treasured and precious memories, in a similar way to old family photographs. In essence, they are a part of ME.
Therefore, looking at them and handling them, even before I get to playing the music on them, is all part of the experience - a human experience that I could never obtain from accessing some random files on a computer, which for me, in comparison, are totally meaningless, even if they contain the same music.
You probably won't get that, as our brains in that respect are obviously wired rather differently. Hey ho, it takes all sorts to make the world go round.
However, think about this: if your mum or dad had bought you a favourite book, as a special present, when you were a kid, which you've always treasured for sentimental reasons, could that book (and what it means to you emotionally) ever be replaced by one of an electronic variety?
Well, it's the EXACT same thing with large chunks of my music collection, and why no computer files will ever be able to replace them!! ;)
Marco.
The other thing I used to like, regarding the sensory experience, ....
You had me worried with the beginning of that paragraph..
twickers
19-02-2014, 22:47
I have many records and CDs that I've owned since I was a teenager, and so they are tangible snapshots of my past, which evoke treasured and precious memories, in a similar way to old family photographs. In essence, they are a part of ME.
:yesbruv:
You're concentrating on the wrong bit, Tim. The clue is here, noting in particular the bit in blue:
The point is, it's not "just music"..........
I have many records and CDs that I've owned since I was a teenager, and so they are tangible snapshots of my past, which evoke treasured and precious memories, in a similar way to old family photographs. In essence, they are a part of ME.
Therefore, looking at them and handling them, even before I get to playing the music on them, is all part of the experience - a human experience that I could never obtain from accessing some random files on a computer, which for me, in comparison, are totally meaningless, even if they contain the same music.
You probably won't get that, as our brains in that respect are obviously wired rather differently. Hey ho, it takes all sorts to make the world go round :)
Marco.
And a previous generation would have said that just playing records isn't actually engaging with music, for which they'd say you need sheet music and a musical instrument, in the same way that they'd regard the telephone as ruining the art of letter-writing and 'proper' conversation.
I'm a bit shy in some ways and would send a text, probably a series of texts and some might be a few texts long. Then they might call me back if they are the calling type... but instinctively I'd rather text as you have longer to construct what you have to say and is more direct than email. I often come away from telephone calls feeling I didn't really express myself in a way that conveyed what I really meant or got distracted by the resulting conversation and forgot to mention something, so I'll text anyway etc etc
The official meaning of SMS was only valid back in the day. Now most phones display SMSs strung together as one whole thing and then in conversation view - basically more like an email. Just that the networks make you pay outragously for texts considering the tiny bandwidth it uses.
And a previous generation would have said that just playing records isn't actually engaging with music, for which they'd say you need sheet music and a musical instrument, in the same way that they'd regard the telephone as ruining the art of letter-writing and 'proper' conversation.
That doesn't make the new technology intrinsically 'right' or 'better', though, for everyone. It simply means that, for the majority, it becomes the new way of doing things.
In many aspects of modern living, I choose to divorce myself from the behaviour of the majority.
Marco.
I'm a bit shy in some ways and would send a text, probably a series of texts and some might be a few texts long. Then they might call me back if they are the calling type... but instinctively I'd rather text as you have longer to construct what you have to say and is more direct than email. I often come away from telephone calls feeling I didn't really express myself in a way that conveyed what I really meant or got distracted by the resulting conversation and forgot to mention something, so I'll text anyway etc etc
The official meaning of SMS was only valid back in the day. Now most phones display SMSs strung together as one whole thing and then in conversation view - basically more like an email. Just that the networks make you pay outragously for texts considering the tiny bandwidth it uses.
Anyway, we're (mostly) blokes here, and it's illegal for a telephone conversation between blokes to take longer than a couple of minutes.
'You alright mate?'
'Not bad, yourself?'
'Can't complain. Cheers.'
That's a blokes' telephone conversation. A women's telephone conversation would go on for several pages.
I'm a bit shy in some ways...
Fortunately, shy is one thing I am not! ;)
Marco.
That doesn't make the new technology intrinsically 'right' or 'better', though, for everyone. It simply means that, for the majority, it's the new way of doing things.
In many aspects of modern living, I choose to divorce myself from the behaviour of the majority.
Marco.
You want to get yourself a quill pen and some sealing wax.
Yup - that would be cool! :)
Marco.
And a previous generation would have said that just playing records isn't actually engaging with music, for which they'd say you need sheet music and a musical instrument, in the same way that they'd regard the telephone as ruining the art of letter-writing and 'proper' conversation.
A few perhaps, but a vast majority I suspect would have embraced it as a way of having performances by their favourite dance bands of the time (or classical pieces) in the comfort of their own rooms and many people did just that. I think it unlikely that most would have rejected the LP (most especially musicians who since home audio was invented do seem to have embraced its charms) as an irrelevance when it came to engaging with music, quite the opposite was evidently true. I see the point you're making though and yes, in every generation, there will always be those who hold with their experiences or comfort zone as being the only viable thing for them.
This isn't one of those cases, personally speaking. It has more to do with amassing 1000 LPs (and growing) plus almost as many CDs. Many of those LPs have not been transcribed digitally (many of my Vivaldi or Bach performances for example), some are conducted by some late great conductors, again, not found on digital format (examples are mostly classical) and since I'm one, like most I suspect, who has their favourite classical arrangements, it is ludicrous to even consider giving those up for the sake of an alternative way to access music, convenient or not. It is the convenience thing which is largely meaningless to me.
Even where CD is concerned, whilst I could (and have) ripped the CDs (I have many already on file for my hi-res player), I rarely use the player despite its convenience. I don't think that one format (file or CD) has the upper hand with my current set up anyway, but where file based does score is the freedom from transport induced effects (as some claim they do exist) and my own experience is that file based music can sound pretty darned good. Ultimate fidelity is a pipe dream though as ultimately, our loudspeakers and rooms are the limiting factor. The time is now (arguably) with us when the potential of music formats do exceed the ability of our systems to fully exploit that potential. That and our hearing being (in most cases) the limiting factor, hence I don't see SQ as a valid argument for one or other format. They're all capable of great results imho, so it boils down to convenience. Tomatoes or tomate-toes. Each has their reason for preferring one or the other and it has been very interesting seeing some of the responses. All contributors obviously have their own very vlid reasons for going in their own chosen paths and one is evidently not right or wrong. You pays your money...you makes your choice.
It has more to do with amassing 1000 LPs (and growing) plus almost as many CDs. Many of those LPs have not been transcribed digitally (many of my Vivaldi or Bach performances for example), some are conducted by some late great conductors, again, not found on digital format (examples are mostly classical) and since I'm one, like most I suspect, who has their favourite classical arrangements, it is ludicrous to even consider giving those up for the sake of an alternative way to access music, convenient or not. It is the convenience thing which is largely meaningless to me.
+1.
Like I've said before, why restrict yourself to one type of music source, as in doing so, you're subsequently restricting your access to music that's only available on one format.
In your case with classical music, some of which is only available on vinyl, you'd be missing out on some important stuff, with access only to one available source. In my case, it's not so much classical, but more dance and electronic music, some of which is only available on 12" singles!
As for the convenience factor, that is a non-consideration for me, as ultimately I have much greater priorities with music than convenience, especially as 90% of my listening is done from home. The other 10% happens in the car, where I listen to either CD, tape, or the radio.
As I almost never use public transport, or have the desire to walk around with music continually blaring in my ears, consequently I have no need for any form of portable music player. When I'm out about, without the car, I prefer to be in touch with the environment around me.
The time is now (arguably) with us when the potential of music formats do exceed the ability of our systems to fully exploit that potential. That and our hearing being (in most cases) the limiting factor, hence I don't see SQ as a valid argument for one or other format. They're all capable of great results imho
I completely agree. My non-use of FBA has got nothing to do with sound quality. I know it can sound great - just not better (to my ears) than what's available from my CDP or turntable, and so in that respect, there is no incentive for me to 'upgrade'.
Marco.
Anyway, we're (mostly) blokes here, and it's illegal for a telephone conversation between blokes to take longer than a couple of minutes.
'You alright mate?'
'Not bad, yourself?'
'Can't complain. Cheers.'
That's a blokes' telephone conversation. A women's telephone conversation would go on for several pages.
Lol - indeed. However, in that respect, I guess that I'm not a typical bloke. I can often spend 2 hours (or more) on the phone to friends, particularly if they're ones I don't see very often. I enjoy chatting on the phone, providing that the topic of conversation is suitably interesting (music, hi-fi, football, holidays, food and drink, putting the world to rights, etc)!
Marco.
Interesting question:-
I have around 9000 CD's, and neigh on 350 TB of red book quality and high resolution files, I have ripped virtually none of my collection, simply because it just doesn't the same despite being absolute bit perfect. I am not getting into to that discussion now.
Which way to go CD with dac input or dedicated transport /dac
With the all in one box how much of a compromise are you making?
Sharing crystal oscillators, PLL's signal pathway sharing, digital data transfer from the servo drive section to the receiver chip, did it use Opto couplers or isolation frame transformers?, how much galvanic isolation on the USB, does the USB have its own dedicated ultra clean supply?
How much contamination from the on board psu's are they shielded, partial Faraday cadge the list goes on.
You do get shorter signal pathways and a neater solution.
Transport and dac, signal path way issues, extra cabling, digital data signal time domain issues, more space required, more isolation etc.
Which is truly better? today's technology changes at a rapid pace, I have some very fine examples of each genre's.
For me personally I use a combination player which is a transport / dac unit with a dedicated atomic clock built in it also performs DSD up to the usual 32/384Khz (not that I use that facility much). for me it outperforms a large number of serious equipment up to a significant amount.
Which do I prefer, easy the one which which makes me sit and listen to the musicians art without the need to worry about "Am I missing something" a very hard act to perform, there are a few of these products out there you just need to think outside the box more.
Think outside the one box or outside the two boxes?
Going back to the original OP as you have Mr C, for me it's a question of value/absolute cost and flexibility (ignoring the specifics of each design, whether you love the design of one transport over another CD player).
Finding a great transport, performing a few mods and then either finding a great DAC or DIYing something is easier and cheaper and often greater value because of that lower cost than trying to find a great all-in-one player with DAC inputs.
There are things like the Cambridge Audio 740c which is only about £220 secondhand now which is great value for money but the build quality of the transport just isn't up there with those of yesteryear and I bet a Bushmaster from a DVD player would sound better.
Interesting question:-
I have around 9000 CD's, and neigh on 350 TB of red book quality and high resolution files
350 TB !!!! :eek:
I have about 2.5K red book CDs on FLAC level 5, and that only takes 800 GB, or 1.6TB for the WAV equivalent
350 TB !!! you must have a 'server farm' ;)
Yeah, not thought about that... that's an awful lot of harddrive space!
350TB is more than the storage capacity of many large data centers I know of ;) :scratch:
I'm assuming that's a typo and if you worked at a conservative 40 quid a TB that puts the cost at £14,000 just for the disks, let alone the hardware to run them all and the air-conditioned server room, as that's a lot of heat and noise!
Well after a week returning to 100% physical media, there are CDs and BluRays all over the place, as well as a big pile of records to put back in sleeves etc etc.
Once you've made the transformation. going back DOES NOT WORK! Right royal PITA if you ask me.
I used Lacie 4TB raid drives as storage around £85 a unit, I have had a count up we have ninety three drives so not quite 400TB.
My pc software player loads the entire track / album in to ram and shuts downs any drives active while playing.
The recording rate we use in studio is DXD so it is pretty easy to fill =4TB in a week, most high resolution albums 24/96khz and above range form 2.8Gig to around 6 Gig so 186 albums on typical TB Drive (usually around 930gb typical)
I keep a lot of my 'in service' tunes on 50Gb flash drives and when making play lists makes life easier. Do not use a dedicated server for the music room at home.
Wakefield Turntables
26-02-2014, 12:34
I used Lacie 4TB raid drives as storage around £85 a unit, I have had a count up we have ninety three drives so not quite 400TB.
My pc software player loads the entire track / album in to ram and shuts downs any drives active while playing.
The recording rate we use in studio is DXD so it is pretty easy to fill =4TB in a week, most high resolution albums 24/96khz and above range form 2.8Gig to around 6 Gig so 186 albums on typical TB Drive (usually around 930gb typical)
I keep a lot of my 'in service' tunes on 50Gb flash drives and when making play lists makes life easier. Do not use a dedicated server for the music room at home.
Blimey!
Where do you get a Lacie 4TB raid drive from for £85 ! :eek:
Yes, Tony is one of the chaps I was thinking of when I mentioned FBA 'done right'! ;)
Marco.
Hi Neal
I did a bulk purchase on the older style black casework units with the blue light on the front from a Lacie manufactured deal a couple of years back, they still have these deals on their site.
Been into the stores this afternoon we are using the thunderbolt 4TB type now so £220 a piece. never had any issues with Lacie gear at all.
To me no difference purchasing a quality drive as it is buying a decent record cleaner, only less outlay!
http://www.lacie.com/uk/products/clearance/products/?id=10007
I used Lacie 4TB raid drives as storage around £85 a unit, I have had a count up we have ninety three drives so not quite 400TB.
My pc software player loads the entire track / album in to ram and shuts downs any drives active while playing.
The recording rate we use in studio is DXD so it is pretty easy to fill =4TB in a week, most high resolution albums 24/96khz and above range form 2.8Gig to around 6 Gig so 186 albums on typical TB Drive (usually around 930gb typical)
I keep a lot of my 'in service' tunes on 50Gb flash drives and when making play lists makes life easier. Do not use a dedicated server for the music room at home.
When you say studio, are you recording your own stuff?
And I take it then you mean all 93 drives aren't online at once, just there as storage and you bung them into a hotswap NAS or something when you need them?
And what are you using for DXD? Something by Digital Audio Denmark?
Accudazed
29-05-2014, 18:21
Sadly, I spend most of my working day chained to a PC. As if that wasn't bad enough, the bloody thing is unreliable and causes so much downtime. Then there's the constant changing of software, 'upgrades', hardware changes, shoddy PC build quality, etc, etc, etc.
The thought of having my music hobby dependant on PCs and even a small part of Bill Gate's global empire is just not going to happen for me. I need to escape from the bloody things at home and get some control back in my life.
My Accuphase CD player sounds amazing. It always works, never "goes down", "freezes", "locks", "crashes", etc, etc, etc. I never have to upgrade software or hardware either or wait for a cash loaded IT 'expert' to fleece me dry when the inevitable happens and my PC shats itself. Then there's the satisfaction of reading all the stuff that comes with my CDs. It's all on paper too. I can read it at any time pretty much anywhere. Lovely. I don't want to pay hard earned cash for a 'virtual' file.
Sorry folks, its Cds and records for me. Thank god listening to music in my home is one area of my life NOT dictated by Microsoft, Apple, etc, etc. Long may it continue:).
Steve
CD players are some of the worst culprits for failing over time, so although I listen to CD mainly, it's important to me that when the transport breaks the DAC will still be here, so I just need to sort another transport. Also I do listen to Spotify a lot for casual listening, so it's important to switch between my computer and CD transport. There are an increasing number of CD players with digital inputs, but personally a CD player these days is only valid if you have a decent CD collection, love the format, and don't need or want the added flexibility of a DAC.
Accudazed
07-06-2014, 20:27
CD players are some of the worst culprits for failing over time
I agree, especially budget CD players. However, the failure of CD's is nothing compared to computer failure rates!!!
I tend to think of CD lasers - the part which seems to fail first - as a the equivalent of a turntable's cartridge. The problem is though that not enough lasers were ever made for long term usage of your favourite CD player (convenient or what for CD manufacturers?).
"Laser gone mate? Oh dear, you'll be needing a new CD player".
Kerching!
So another great technology ultimately ruined by the bean counters and corporate greed.
At least if a CD transport fails, you don't risk losing your music collection.
I can fully understand the convenience of file based music and each to their own, but I also see it as something of an obsession these days that everything "must" be virtual as if credibility somehow goes hand in hand with virtual music collections. I've noted a sort of looking down the nose attitude by a number of individuals when I explained that my digital music collection is all on CD. Go figure. I view this like I view reading. I don't own a kindle and never will. I like my books to be real, with real pages that take up real space in my bookshelf. I don't want or need 1000 book titles, just as I don't miss not having several thousand music files.
As for CDP reliability, well it's never been such a great time to pick up great sounding players for almost next to nothing. I recently changed my yummy Accuphase CDP for one at a small fraction of the cost because I knew that the transports were widely available, cheap and its something I can do myself should the time come to change one. It realised the cash back to reinvest in the business and to my ears, I've lost nothing except the sublime build quality of the Accuphase. A transport failing will cost me £15. That's cheaper than a laptop failing, so no contest.
At the end of the day, it's all personal preferences, no right or wrong in it, but physical media will always remain the mainstay of my music collections.
Mark Grant
09-06-2014, 18:00
At least if a CD transport fails, you don't risk losing your music collection.
Twice this year I have spoken to customers who have had hi-fi systems set fire and destroy everything. plastic burns well.
One while the home owner was out at work and the other during the night when the smoke alarm saved the occupants.
Insurance pays out but replacing a large collection of CD's with the small amount an insurance company will pay per CD wont be easy.
Best to keep a list and some photos as proof of what you have, not in your house though somewhere on line in the cloud :)
PaulStewart
09-06-2014, 23:31
Insurance pays out but replacing a large collection of CD's with the small amount an insurance company will pay per CD wont be easy. Best to keep a list and some photos as proof of what you have, not in your house though somewhere on line in the cloud
It's essential to go to a specialist insurer like Hiscox and get an agreed value for your collection in case of fire, flood or pestilence :laugh: I have a file based system as sometimes it's the first way review samples are sent to me and it lets me check them to se if I want to physical copies to review. Also, it streams round the house and I can do research on tracks on Spotify et al. I do like my TEAC VRDS 10 running through the DAC and I'm now spinning SACDs and Pure Audio Blu Rays on the Sony. Whereas the "Red Book" stuff sounds better on the CDP than loaded onto the server, the "Pure Audio" High Res stuff sounds better than CD but both ways of playing sound the same to my ears.
The Barbarian
10-06-2014, 00:00
I personally don't like to talk about peoples CD collections ripped to Files as i am not sure it is legal to do this {you can never get a straight answer from anyone regarding this anyway}. So i do not do it.. I also try not to use my CD Player if i can help it for fear of laser failure as it's the best sounding Player i have you know & i would certainly never ever buy another machine.. so i kind give digital the back door because of reliability & the legal position of Filing CD collection.. So to make life much easier i just concentrate on records, i do feel more a peace knowing that my TT will probably never break down. After years of CD listening, i have re-adjust my hearing back to Analogue playback.
mr sneff
10-06-2014, 04:27
I personally don't like to talk about peoples CD collections ripped to Files as i am not sure it is legal to do this {you can never get a straight answer from anyone regarding this anyway}. So i do not do it.. I also try not to use my CD Player if i can help it for fear of laser failure as it's the best sounding Player i have you know & i would certainly never ever buy another machine.. so i kind give digital the back door because of reliability & the legal position of Filing CD collection.. So to make life much easier i just concentrate on records, i do feel more a peace knowing that my TT will probably never break down. After years of CD listening, i have re-adjust my hearing back to Analogue playback.
So, presumably, you've never taped a CD or LP either, Andre?
Twice this year I have spoken to customers who have had hi-fi systems set fire and destroy everything. plastic burns well.
One while the home owner was out at work and the other during the night when the smoke alarm saved the occupants.
Insurance pays out but replacing a large collection of CD's with the small amount an insurance company will pay per CD wont be easy.
Best to keep a list and some photos as proof of what you have, not in your house though somewhere on line in the cloud :)
True Mark, but that isn't for me any sort of argument to ditch CD. Fires can and do unfortunately happen, and mitigating risk is the only way of prevention (ie turn your kit off at night!).
I also try not to use my CD Player if i can help it for fear of laser failure as it's the best sounding Player i have you know & i would certainly never ever buy another machine.. so i kind give digital the back door because of reliability & the legal position of Filing CD collection..
I can't understand this at all...A CDP -like any other piece of equipment- has a shelf life and is only of any value when being used for the intended function... Otherwise you'd be better off selling it and buying the external casing to look at- the result would be the same!
purite audio
10-06-2014, 09:23
The Weiss MAN301 network player can play CDs directly or the ripped file of the CD, plus it rips, edits,tags, finds the album artwork, Internet radio etc etc.
Keith.
The Barbarian
10-06-2014, 09:33
da2222:
Nor do i understand what you just posted!!
What is so hard to understand in the below:
1 I don't trust my CD player to work the next time around, if it did not i would never ever buy another hence i do not use it unless i really have to.
2.I don't rip CD's to files as it is apparently illegal {However i don't have definate say weither it is troo or not}
2. I use records, other than prefering the sound i know full well my Turntable will see me out, hence will work next time around.
2.I don't rip CD's to files as it is apparently illegal {However i don't have definate say weither it is troo or not}
It is legal if you own the CD Andre, and just imagine one day any one of your CDs might fail, whereas the file copy won't 'wear out' with use...the HD might, but that's what b'ups are for :)
mr sneff
10-06-2014, 10:57
da2222:
Nor do i understand what you just posted!!
What is so hard to understand in the below:
1 I don't trust my CD player to work the next time around, if it did not i would never ever buy another hence i do not use it unless i really have to.
2.I don't rip CD's to files as it is apparently illegal {However i don't have definate say weither it is troo or not}
2. I use records, other than prefering the sound i know full well my Turntable will see me out, hence will work next time around.
So, you avoid using your CD player because you might wear it out. Surely every time you play a vinyl record you're wearing it out.
da2222:
Nor do i understand what you just posted!!
What is so hard to understand in the below:
1 I don't trust my CD player to work the next time around, if it did not i would never ever buy another hence i do not use it unless i really have to.
.
There is just as much chance something will go wrong in time even if it is not used! I wish I had enough money to buy expensive equipment just to look at ...... :-)
mr sneff
10-06-2014, 13:58
There is just as much chance something will go wrong in time even if it is not used! I wish I had enough money to buy expensive equipment just to look at ...... :-)
Given enough time anything will decay and fall apart :lol:
I don't see the separate DAC as a new fad, personally. Apart from my first CD player, a Sony CDP101, all my CD playing has been through a separate DAC, Sony 702ES, Meridian 606, Stax DAX(?), Spectral SDR 2000 Pro, Goldmund Mimesis 20. I have an Audiosynthesis DAC too with added custom 48kHz clock for my DAT recorder, dual dacs and balanced output which I used to use playing back my own recordings.
So as far as I am concerned it has always been a separate DAC, the only thing which has changed relatively recently is additions for computer audio such as 24/96 and 24/192 and USB inputs.
It looks like a new fashion for DSD has just started being marketed to convince us all to re-buy all our music and "need" a new DAC.
Cynic? Me?
I had a listen to a Young DAC in my system using a Parasound 1000 as a transport. It sounded pretty good and slightly different to the Parasound DAC but I couldn't hear it doing anything 'hi-fi' that the CDP didn't do on its own.
walpurgis
15-06-2014, 20:45
I've used separate DACs for years. My Meridian 507 is no slouch as a stand alone CDP, but with even a Theta Choma DAC it improved. I went on to use a Theta DS Pro Progeny with it and things moved up a grade or two. The last few years I've been using Monarchy Audio DACs, I have the M22B and M22C, which both sound lovely. Adding a Monarchy Audio DIP adds even to this.
. The last few years I've been using Monarchy Audio DACs, I have the M22B and M22C, which both sound lovely. .
You don't need both. Giz one ;)
I have no education at all in DACs. The Young and the XTZ are the only DACs I have heard in my system. Everyone forgets that the stand alone DAC practically died out from what? 1995 to 2003?
walpurgis
15-06-2014, 21:06
You don't need both. Giz one ;)
They're mine, all mine. :)
I've had at least a dozen DACs and believe me there are some very indifferent ones about. I certainly didn't get on with any of the Cambridge ones. I tried all of them.
Yes I forgot the Cambridge 840c I had. I used that as a DAC for a while both in standard and upsampling mode but I never really got on with it. I don't think I like 'analogue sounding' digital. I mean why not just put a record on if that's what you want? ;)
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