View Full Version : Advice needed on a phono stage
Hi all.
As you all know I'm new here, I need some advice on my turntable setup.
Ok here goes. I have a rotel RP3000 fed into a Denon AVCA1D
Now it sounds good to me but I'd like to improve the overall sound of it. I have an SME 3009 fixed headshell tonearm with an audio technica AT95 E.
I've replaced the rubber platter mat with a 3mm cork mat. I've added Sorbothane pads to the isolation feet too (Thanks for the advice trio-leo)
I'm now thinking of adding a phono stage amp now but I would like to ask would this make a noticeable improvement? I'm looking at either a Musical Fidelity V90 LPS MM/MC or a cambridge audio 651P
I'm looking to spend around £100 so if you could recommend anything better that you've had experience with I'd very much appreciate it.
Thanks in advance,
Nathan.
The Grand Wazoo
04-02-2014, 23:54
Hi Nathan,
I don't know your amp but after a little noodle about on the web, I found a bit out about it and was surprised to see that it has a phono stage built into it to be honest. It was a fairly pricey amp in it's day, was it not? Thing is (and I may be way off the mark here), Denon still made a fairly respectable phono stage in their more expensive integrated models at the time, so it's possible that the one you have is not that bad at all. If I were you, I'd see if it was possible to try something out before you spend any cash on what could be a sideways or even downward move.
Just a thought, but what speakers do you use? And do you have just a stereo pair, or more? The reason I ask is that I think it might be interesting to use a spare pair of power amp channels you might have to bi-amp your speakers, assuming that they have split crossovers.
Hi Nathan,
I don't know your amp but after a little noodle about on the web, I found a bit out about it and was surprised to see that it has a phono stage built into it to be honest. It was a fairly pricey amp in it's day, was it not? Thing is (and I may be way off the mark here), Denon still made a fairly respectable phono stage in their more expensive integrated models at the time, so it's possible that the one you have is not that bad at all. If I were you, I'd see if it was possible to try something out before you spend any cash on what could be a sideways or even downward move.
Just a thought, but what speakers do you use? And do you have just a stereo pair, or more? The reason I ask is that I think it might be interesting to use a spare pair of power amp channels you might have to bi-amp your speakers, assuming that they have split crossovers.
Good Morning Grand Wazoo,
Thanks for the reply. My main front speakers are B&W 683. I do have all the other surrounds but only used for movies.
I did think that my amp did have very good sound on stereo and multi channel but i was just curious if i could improve it in anyway.
The reason i started this thread was because on some vinyl i play (Brand new and cleaned) some of the tracks sound slightly distorted especially when they sing S's (Hope you know what i mean) it just doesn't seem clear enough.
I've just bought Electronic LCD Gram Scales and setup the tonearm to the correct weight but it still seems hissy
Sorry if I've totally lost you but it's quite hard to explain.
Thanks again
Nathan
How did you clean the records?
Have you set your cartridge up using a protractor?
It could be release agent or a set up issue causing this, or even a poor reproduction in the vinyl.
How did you clean the records?
Have you set your cartridge up using a protractor?
It could be release agent or a set up issue causing this, or even a poor reproduction in the vinyl.
I'm cleaning them with a Knosti Disco Antistat with a soloution of 80% distilled water and 20% Isopropanol 99.9%
I setup the cartridge with an free online protractor.
I'm glad you can understand what i was saying :)
Hi Nathan,
I don't know your amp but after a little noodle about on the web, I found a bit out about it and was surprised to see that it has a phono stage built into it to be honest. It was a fairly pricey amp in it's day, was it not? Thing is (and I may be way off the mark here), Denon still made a fairly respectable phono stage in their more expensive integrated models at the time, so it's possible that the one you have is not that bad at all. If I were you, I'd see if it was possible to try something out before you spend any cash on what could be a sideways or even downward move.
Just a thought, but what speakers do you use? And do you have just a stereo pair, or more? The reason I ask is that I think it might be interesting to use a spare pair of power amp channels you might have to bi-amp your speakers, assuming that they have split crossovers.
Spot on. Even the mid-range PM350UK model amps had a cracking phonostage built in which is more than a match for budget stages today. If you want to spend £100 to improve the SQ Nathan, and assuming your speakers are ok and well matched for your room, my advice would be to change the cartridge. With the greatest of respect, I would think that is the weak link in your front end. Its a fine budget cart for sure and has many fans (including myself) but can easily be bettered and by miles for around £100 outlay on a better MM cartridge. Getting the set-up not just close, but absolutely spot on is also hugely important...don't underestimate this.
Before spending money anywhere, why not check and re-check set-up. You need the correct template for the 3009 as a generic one won't do at all . You can download the right protractor template or buy them. The protractor to use is the one with the correct null points for the 3009 effective length and stylus overhang. Get that wrong plus bias wrong and it makes a world of difference for the worst.
Spot on. Even the mid-range PM350UK model amps had a cracking phonostage built in which is more than a match for budget stages today. If you want to spend £100 to improve the SQ Nathan, and assuming your speakers are ok and well matched for your room, my advice would be to change the cartridge. With the greatest of respect, I would think that is the weak link in your front end. Its a fine budget cart for sure and has many fans (including myself) but can easily be bettered and by miles for around £100 outlay on a better MM cartridge. Getting the set-up not just close, but absolutely spot on is also hugely important...don't underestimate this.
Before spending money anywhere, why not check and re-check set-up. You need the correct template for the 3009 as a generic one won't do at all . You can download the right protractor template or buy them. The protractor to use is the one with the correct null points for the 3009 effective length and stylus overhang. Get that wrong plus bias wrong and it makes a world of difference for the worst.
Thanks for all the info Paul. I'll go and search for a better protractor and try setting it up before jumping in.
I'll let you know about any improvements.
Thanks again for all your help, it's much appreciated.
Nathan.
Can anyone guide me to a free download protractor? I've had a look but not really getting much luck.
Have you tried Vinyl Engine?
Look in their Tonearm database, and choose the right Series, and there should be a download available towards the bottom of the page.
My advice is to consider an AT120E for the SME. This cartridge isn't suitable for massy arms, but a fixed head SME should be fine. Use the black-tac that SME used to supply between cartridge and headshell, aluminium screws (no need for heavy stainless steel bolts here) and track at 1.5g approx. This should open up the sound nicely I think.
By the way, any other modern cartridge tracking at 1.75g or more may just upset the RP3000 servos, as the OEM Matsushita direct drive motors weren't as good as the ones fitted to their best decks in the 'pre quartz' era.
Have you tried Vinyl Engine?
Look in their Tonearm database, and choose the right Series, and there should be a download available towards the bottom of the page.
Thanks CageyH. I'll have a look.
My advice is to consider an AT120E for the SME. This cartridge isn't suitable for massy arms, but a fixed head SME should be fine. Use the black-tac that SME used to supply between cartridge and headshell, aluminium screws (no need for heavy stainless steel bolts here) and track at 1.5g approx. This should open up the sound nicely I think.
By the way, any other modern cartridge tracking at 1.75g or more may just upset the RP3000 servos, as the OEM Matsushita direct drive motors weren't as good as the ones fitted to their best decks in the 'pre quartz' era.
Thanks David.
I'll certainly take a look about.
If anyone else could recommend a cartridge I'd appreciated it.
Thanks again.
walpurgis
05-02-2014, 19:46
Can anyone guide me to a free download protractor? I've had a look but not really getting much luck.
I did mention this protractor on AOS a few days ago. Not free but cheap and it should be accurate coming from Ortofon:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Cartridge-Alignment-Protractor-/291069106729?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c5121a29&clk_rvr_id=582807561865&afsrc=1
If you download a protractor, you should bear in mind that they do not necessarily print out to the correct scale, resulting in errors. Some come with a measure rule you can check scale against, like this one:
http://i61.tinypic.com/2dtp1g8.jpg
I did mention this protractor on AOS a few days ago. Not free but cheap and it should be accurate coming from Ortofon:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-Cartridge-Alignment-Protractor-/291069106729?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c5121a29&clk_rvr_id=582807561865&afsrc=1
If you download a protractor, you should bear in mind that they do not necessarily print out to the correct scale, resulting in errors. Some come with a measure rule you can check scale against, like this one:
http://i61.tinypic.com/2dtp1g8.jpg
Thank Geoff. I think I'll buy it.
Many thanks!
walpurgis
05-02-2014, 20:48
By the way Nathan. Your SME arm is not suited to most Moving Coil cartridges, should you be thinking of something like that. You could do worse than look at the Grado range, they always sound very pleasant, even the cheaper models. I've found them to have an airiness and sweetness that most MMs don't seem able to match.
Check out the online reviews of the Grado Prestige Black 1. It's well liked and nobody accuses it of having a coarse top end, it's also very reasonably priced.
By the way Nathan. Your SME arm is not suited to most Moving Coil cartridges, should you be thinking of something like that. You could do worse than look at the Grado range, they always sound very pleasant, even the cheaper models. I've found them to have an airiness and sweetness that most MMs don't seem able to match.
Check out the online reviews of the Grado Prestige Black 1. It's well liked and nobody accuses it of having a coarse top end, it's also very reasonably priced.
Just bought the protractor from eBay thanks Geoff.
I was just looking at the Ortofon 2M Red actually. Have you any thoughts on this 1 too
Thanks for all your help. I'll check out the Grado now.
walpurgis
05-02-2014, 21:41
I was just looking at the Ortofon 2M Red actually. Have you any thoughts on this 1 too
I've tried many Ortofons MMs, but not that one, so I can't comment.
Others to consider are the AT120E and the MP-110, or try and find a 2M Blue second hand.
Thanks guys. I need to do some homework now, this may take some time.
Thanks for your time chaps!
Always happy to help someone else from North Brissle. :cool:
Ok chaps me again!
Just bought an ortofon red and hoping you could all assist me in setting this up correctly as I haven't a clue being new to this.
Ok. I've set the weight to 1.8g ish and moved the anti skate to the last notch on the tone arm. I've positioned the line 90 degrees. I've taken some pictures for you to see if you all agree on my setup.
Advice appreciated chaps!
I used to use a AT95 as well and got quite an improvement by changing it to an Ortophon red which cost about £50 second hand but low mileage. That may well be the best move initially for not so much cost.
OOPS, I just missed the last post....haha......just ignore me:doh:
I used to use a AT95 as well and got quite an improvement by changing it to an Ortophon red which cost about £50 second hand but low mileage. That may well be the best move initially for not so much cost.
OOPS, I just missed the last post....haha......just ignore me:doh:
I'm quite impressed with the red at the moment. It seems to be a much brighter sound to me and it also seems I don't have to turn my amp up so much too!
I've also just bought from here a hiraoka disk se 22 0 platter mat which may be a big contributor to the improvement.
Cheers Grant!
Glad you have an improvement.....my next stage was to buy an external phono stage which , although the stage in my Arcam fmj was supposedly a good one, certainly lifted the whole performance another gear....
Glad you have an improvement.....my next stage was to buy an external phono stage which , although the stage in my Arcam fmj was supposedly a good one, certainly lifted the whole performance another gear....
I must admit I was tempted to buy 1.
What phono stage are you using out of interest?
I got and used up to yesterday a second hand TRICHORD DINO MK1 which is great and not too expensive.I am now using the phono stage from a Nakamichi pre which is better.
I got and used up to yesterday a second hand TRICHORD DINO MK1 which is great and not too expensive.I am now using the phono stage from a Nakamichi pre which is better.
Thanks for the info, 1 last question I promise :) what sort of price did you pay for the TRICHORD DINO?
I swapped a Headphone amp for it tbh.....think the value was about £150 if I remember right....it can also be updated or you can get the mark 2 as well.....very good phono for the cash and seems to work well with the RED.
I swapped a Headphone amp for it tbh.....think the value was about £150 if I remember right....it can also be updated or you can get the mark 2 as well.....very good phono for the cash and seems to work well with the RED.
Ok, thank you for all your advice, your a true gent.
no probs....plenty phono stages come up in the for sale pages, so you an keep an eye on the possibilities there.....
no probs....plenty phono stages come up in the for sale pages, so you an keep an eye on the possibilities there.....
Will do. Thanks again and have a great weekend.
If someone could advise me on my tonearm setup I'd appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Nathan.
cyclopse
23-02-2014, 22:28
Hi Nathan,
I am just down the road from you in South Glos.
If you need me to pop over to check your set up let me know. Can bring my protractors and test records to check speed and anti skate too.
Regards
Steve
Hi Nathan,
I am just down the road from you in South Glos.
If you need me to pop over to check your set up let me know. Can bring my protractors and test records to check speed and anti skate too.
Regards
Steve
Steve that's very decent of you! I'll keep in touch if I need help.
Thanks again !
Hi Nathan,
I am just down the road from you in South Glos.
If you need me to pop over to check your set up let me know. Can bring my protractors and test records to check speed and anti skate too.
Regards
Steve
Steve that's very decent of you! I'll keep in touch if I need help.
Thanks again !
You know what Steve I'd really appreciate it if you were to help a turntable newbie.
I'll PM you and sort things out.
Many thanks again.
Jimification
26-02-2014, 23:24
Spot on. Even the mid-range PM350UK model amps had a cracking phonostage built in which is more than a match for budget stages today. If you want to spend £100 to improve the SQ Nathan, and assuming your speakers are ok and well matched for your room, my advice would be to change the cartridge. With the greatest of respect, I would think that is the weak link in your front end. Its a fine budget cart for sure and has many fans (including myself) but can easily be bettered and by miles for around £100 outlay on a better MM cartridge. Getting the set-up not just close, but absolutely spot on is also hugely important...don't underestimate this.
Before spending money anywhere, why not check and re-check set-up. You need the correct template for the 3009 as a generic one won't do at all . You can download the right protractor template or buy them. The protractor to use is the one with the correct null points for the 3009 effective length and stylus overhang. Get that wrong plus bias wrong and it makes a world of difference for the worst.
Great advice. IME a new phono stage won't make *that* much difference. I went from an AT95E to a Denon DL-110, though, and the difference was huge. The AT95E is brilliant for £35 but you'll be surprised how much better a £100-£150 cart will sound.
Great advice. IME a new phono stage won't make *that* much difference. I went from an AT95E to a Denon DL-110, though, and the difference was huge. The AT95E is brilliant for £35 but you'll be surprised how much better a £100-£150 cart will sound.
Thanks for the advice Jim, I've noticed a Hugh difference in sound quality jumping from the AT95E to the ortofon red.
As soon as funds are available I think I'll upgrade again.
Mad how this hobby goes on and on isn't it. I started of just wanting a to hear the some very old vinyl I found from when I was a spring chicken! It's now 1 of the best hobbies I've had I recon!
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