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Marco
17-06-2009, 13:05
... clearly, they've lost the plot. Rega used make turntables 'for the people', but now they have serious delusions of grandeur:

http://www.tonepublications.com/gear/the-rega-p10-is-announced/

$10,000 for a Pro-ject/Funk look-alike that is still fundamentally hampered by a silly little motor and an elastic band??? :mental:

Roy Gandy must be drinking tap water from Eaglesham:

http://www.linn.co.uk/travelling_to_linn ;)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... I think I'll laugh! Here:

:laugh:

Marco.

StanleyB
17-06-2009, 13:38
It's market value.

twelvebears
17-06-2009, 13:54
Is that it?

Not being funny, but if material VFM is any consideration whatsoever, there are are many companies who offer substancially more for circa 7000.....

Spectral Morn
17-06-2009, 14:28
Theres not a lot of it for $10000 I suppose that translates into about 6000 ish.

I can't see the value in it...its not even nice looking. Rega have gone mad.



Regards D S D L

Marco
17-06-2009, 15:09
It's an abortion - and an expensive one at that!

I'm dying to see the "updated tonearm to succeed the RB1000". What have they done, I wonder? Polished it a bit more? :lol:

Marco.

P.S You can change your name back whenever you like, you know ;)

Spectral Morn
17-06-2009, 15:24
Go on then you've twisted my arm....:lol:



Regards D S D L

Marco
17-06-2009, 15:33
You'll need to change yer avatar - she don't look too much like a Dalek! :lolsign:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
17-06-2009, 15:47
You'll need to change yer avatar - she don't look too much like a Dalek! :lolsign:

Marco.


Done.....:lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

RobHolt
17-06-2009, 16:05
Rega make some extremely fine TTs that aren't hampered by an elastic band or weedy motor.

It is sad that they've moved so far up market though.
That is basically a P9 taken to extremes, ie even lighter and more rigid plinth and probably even finer arm tolerances.

Probably best we listen to it first though before writing it off.

Worth remembering that is a prototype and the finished product is likely to look rather different according to RG.

twelvebears
17-06-2009, 16:49
OK, so taking this thread off in an obvious ludicrous direction, how WOULD people choose to spend 6,114 on a new vinyl playing device?

Oh and Marco, you're not allowed to say a gold plated Techie....

Spectral Morn
17-06-2009, 17:24
OK, so taking this thread off in an obvious ludicrous direction, how WOULD people choose to spend 6,114 on a new vinyl playing device?

Oh and Marco, you're not allowed to say a gold plated Techie....


Oracle Delphi mk5+turbo psu, Graham 2.2 S/H arm and a S/H VDH cart maybe a VDH 1 or 10 at a pinch. That should come in and around the price.


Regards D S D L

Marco
17-06-2009, 18:01
OK, so taking this thread off in an obvious ludicrous direction, how WOULD people choose to spend 6,114 on a new vinyl playing device?


Not me, Steve, for the simple reason of the laws of diminishing returns...

I've been there and done that in the past, spending 7k on brand new 'hi-end' CDPs, etc, but now that I've learned how to get maximum SPPV from using my knowledge and experience, and thus judiciously selecting the equipment I use, those days are over.

With hi-fi, not just turntables, I demand that the vast majority of the cost price equates to out-and-out performance, not simply paying for the prestige value of a badge and aesthetic fripperies. You can bet your boots that when you get to 6k plus for a turntable that a lot of the latter is part of the equation ;)

Witness the lunacy with the pricing at Linn these days! LP12, Ekos SE, Keel, Akiva, Radikal & Urika = 'High-end Linn reference turntable' - 15,970... [Cough!] :wanker:

No, either late this year or early next year I'll be buying my 'ultimate T/T' for life, which will be one of Dave's fully refurbished SP10s, to which I'll have fitted an SP10 Time Step PSU, 12" Jelco tonearm, and a high-end SPU or EMT XSD-15 cartridge, with the lot housed in a nice slate plinth. Then it'll be job done.

I would then happily put that against ANY turntable in the world - yes even the mighty Rega P10! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
17-06-2009, 18:17
Hi Rob,


Rega make some extremely fine TTs that aren't hampered by an elastic band or weedy motor.


Rega do indeed make some decent T/Ts (I've owned most of them) and I like the P9, but I know we disagree on the belt-drive thing. You probably know my stance of this so there's not much point in me repeating it :)


It is sad that they've moved so far up market though.
That is basically a P9 taken to extremes, ie even lighter and more rigid plinth and probably even finer arm tolerances.


Actually, what I wrote was slightly tongue-in-cheek. Although the P10 is to all intents and purposes 'ridiculous', I wish them all the best with it and hope that Rega sell plenty - simply because I like to see British companies doing well in the marketplace.

There's enough Chinese-built and foreign stuff around at the moment, so more power to Rega for throwing their hat into the ring at the high end. It's just not a product that would interest me.


Probably best we listen to it first though before writing it off.


Most definitely. I would never do anything else. It was just too hard to resist having a little 'poke' ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave
17-06-2009, 18:31
The picture of the new Rega is a prototype - one of many which might well not see the light of day as they have been playing around with all sorts of designs. The price has not been fixed nor has the design or the launch date which, I am told, will be at least a year away.

DSJR
17-06-2009, 18:50
Marco, How many P9's or P10's do you think Rega will make and/or sell in a couple of years? A few dozen possibly! That ceramic platter is apparently VERY expensive to fabricate and they're now using this stuff in the bearing. I'm sure some bright spark will find out the laminate they are playing with in the plinth.

The Techie donor player you use has something like THREE MILLION sales to its credit - the tooling was paid for decades ago and this is one reason why they can keep it as cheap as they have I suspect. The SP10 you'll be buying will be on its fourth decade by now and would cost a good few grand if made today - and that's without plinth I suspect...

Rega's worst problems with wow were fixed with the fixed motor mount, along with the worst of the motor vibration IMO. I would agree that for a few quids worth of better bearing "hardness" and a polished arm-pipe, they're making loads on the arm (they always were the most profitable part of a "Planar" according to Roy.

Currently, my favourite six grands worth would be a NAS Dias with their 12" arm at least and a good grands worth of ZYX cartridge. Any change would go towards a really top quality phono stage (but only if it really did better Glenn's offerings). I'd never buy a tweaked SP10 package without doing this one comparison first. The weight of the Dias platter and the graphite based disc contact removes obvious wow&flutter and I love the way the disc is terminated by this material (same as my old Mentor had)

RobHolt
17-06-2009, 18:51
Here's a P9.5 I prepared earlier:

Oh Matron, she's lost her skirt! :o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/zippy670/P6171142.jpg

Marco
17-06-2009, 19:12
Dave,


The Techie donor player you use has something like THREE MILLION sales to its credit - the tooling was paid for decades ago and this is one reason why they can keep it as cheap as they have I suspect. The SP10 you'll be buying will be on its fourth decade by now and would cost a good few grand if made today - and that's without plinth I suspect...


ABSOLUTOMONDO!

*THAT* is exactly what I'm about when it comes to hi-fi - finding products just like the Techy (SL-1210 or SP10)! Jelco tonearms are another case in point and fully deserve the term 'giant-killer', as is the Sony - heck my system is full of this kind of stuff! :eyebrows:

Why should I pay for a tiny (in comparison) 'high-end' manufacturer's R&D costs, tooling, etc, when I can get it for free with a wonderful product, or at a fraction of the cost, for the reasons you've described? :)

The difference with me, Dave, is I don't get a 'warm glow' because the turntable I use has 'Linn', 'SME' (no offence, Neil!), 'Kuzma', or whatever, written on the front... I'm quite happy to use a product from a mass-market Japanese manufacturer, PROVIDING that product is truly excellent. Unlike others with a comfortable disposable income to spend on 'toys', I am not a hi-fi snob.

The fact is, my heavily modified SL-1210, or the SP10 I'm going to get, will compete with designs at many times their cost, simply for the reasons you outline - so I can sit back and enjoy wonderful sounding music with a big smug grin on my chops from knowing that I own a genuine bargain :cool:

Marco.

Marco
17-06-2009, 19:15
Here's a P9.5 I prepared earlier:

Oh Matron, she's lost her skirt! :o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/zippy670/P6171142.jpg

VERY sexy, Rob. That's about the coolest looking Rega I've seen! :smoking:

Marco.

DSJR
17-06-2009, 19:20
Rob, you need the green wall shelf to go with it.........

Marco, I wish I had an income, as well as a disposable one :( You can't buy many goodies on three hours per week in a closed-shop town where 60% of the population is over 60 and retired...

Spectral Morn
17-06-2009, 19:25
Dave,



ABSOLUTOMONDO!

*THAT* is exactly what I'm about when it comes to hi-fi - finding products just like the Techy!

Why should I want to pay for a tiny (in comparison) 'high-end' manufacturer's R&D costs, tooling, etc, when I can get it for free or at a fraction of the cost for the reasons you've described? :)

The difference with me, Dave, is I don't get a warm glow because the turntable I use has 'Linn', 'SME' (no offence, Neil!), 'Kuzma', or whatever, written on the front... I'm quite happy to use a product from a mass-market Japanese manufacturer, PROVIDING that product is truly excellent. Unlike others with a comfortable disposable income to spend on 'toys', I am not a hi-fi snob.

The fact is, my heavily modified SL-1210, or the SP10 I'm going to get, will compete with designs at many times their cost, simply for the reasons you outline - so I can sit back and enjoy wonderful sounding music with a big smug grin on my chops from knowing that I own a genuine bargain :cool:

Marco.

None taken...I bought mine S/H (SME model 20) in fact third hand as the original owner had died and it was left into be sold in another shop (not the one I managed) by his wife (very sad he was a lovely man and I was involved in the sale of this deck...my first high-end TT sale way back when it had just come out 1991 ish). So when it was offered to me by a customer/friend (he had bought it off that other dealer...who by my understanding ripped off a Widow...You will pay for that someday) 2 and a half years ago along with a Chord phono stage and Ortofon mc7500 I jumped at it. As much to get a SME TT and 5 arm but because I am sentimental and wanted to have that TT.

I have never bought a new TT in fact the only new bit I have is my Graham Phantom arm and Bat VK10se everything else I have analogue wise is S/H..bar cartridges.

The problem as always is tooling costs and lack of scale, distribution margin etc. However sometimes you just have to pay for craftsman ship and I rate the Graham from that point of view.....pity about the and $ issue oh well.

At some point I will look into the Technics thing but not now...just had to cancel half of my sky subscription tonight.:(


Regards D S D L

Marco
17-06-2009, 19:36
Rob, you need the green wall shelf to go with it.........


No, no black is perfect. It adds to the minimalism and colour contrast!

Dave, when I retire in about 4 years at 47 (I don't intend to 'work' past 50) you can come and manage the hi-fi shop I'm opening up ;)

Marco.

twelvebears
18-06-2009, 06:42
I have pretty much promised myself that I will never by anything totally new or mainstream again. S/H and/or 'non-commercial bespoke' in the way for me now, at least that way you know what you're getting should be better VFM.

The fact is that of all the bits of HiFi I've bought new, there is only one which I still own and which I actually very much doubt I will ever get rid of, which is my MF M3, so it's the only new purchase I've got real value from.

I'll happily part with 550 for a Terminator Arm in due course because I think it a great product, hand made by one man, and I like that kind of thing - hence my Stone Henge speaker obsession...

I must admit to REALLY liking the Denon DP-80.... Has anyone got any idea where one of these might show up and how much it would be?

RobHolt
18-06-2009, 12:52
I must admit to REALLY liking the Denon DP-80.... Has anyone got any idea where one of these might show up and how much it would be?

No, but if you like the look and style of the Denon. keep an eye out for a JVC QL7, QLA7 or QL10.
Really solid DDs that sat at or close the top of the range in the late 70s and early 80s. Highly polished wooden plinths, that chamfered 'flying saucer' style motor unit and great high mass arms.

I had a QLA7 back in the day and loved it. In fact the remains are till lurking somewhere in the shed.

TONEPUB
25-06-2009, 16:05
Personally, I think your comments are really out of line Marco.

I know that your in love with your tweeked out 1200, and I've got one too, so you can't say I don't sympathize with you.

But, not having been to the factory and heard the table, you are way off base here.

If you had paid attention to what was written, that this was still a prototype and could be subject to change, and NOT the final plinth design, I think we have to wait to see what they settle on.

Also, having known Ray for a few years now, and after spending a few days with him and the Rega staff, you couldn't meet a more dedicated analog guy. Why, after 30+ years is it wrong of him to produce a table, in limited quantities with the best materials and engineering that he and his staff know how to make?

They are not abandoning any of their lower range and as a matter of fact, they always take the technology that comes from the top and put it into the lower range. He said to me at the factory, that the real challenge for him is "how to make the P1 even better at it's price."

Last but not least, Rega employs local people, many who have worked there for 15-20 years or more and pays them decent wages, whilst still charging very fair prices for their components. They send nothing to China, even for subassembly, getting their boards stuffed right down the street from a local firm.

So bashing Roy for making the best turntable he knows how to make for a handful of people who feel like buying it is really none of your business. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But of course, you won't anyway because your 1200 is the best turntable in the world, right.

Very uncool to bash Roy Gandy, one of the guys that's done more to put decent analog at a reasonable price in many people's homes over the past 30 years.

DSJR
25-06-2009, 17:17
I can't really add to the above, except to say that Roy told me once that you can throw any amount you like to get the best possible product, but designing cheaper products of top quality was a lot harder and showed the most skill, as every penny counted.

Spectral Morn
25-06-2009, 17:36
I wasn't going to comment but I will.

Rega have always been the value for money manufacturer. They have managed a lot with relatively affordable products, and now suddenly we have a massive jump in retail cost product. Now I have nothing against that as such, but it has always been rightly or wrongly my perception that Roy was against such things. Never say never would be a safer course but Rega seemed to be not about the high-end. High sound quality for less than a grand or there abouts. I am talking about individually priced items, obviously an arm, motor unit and cart will cost more.

Maybe this TT from Rega will redefine the high-end and give Oracle, VPI, Avid, SME and the others a bloody nose, but for me this High-End Rega was and is a shock as it appears to go against Rega's grain. I look forward to hearing it and reading about it.


Regards D S D L

Marco
25-06-2009, 17:51
Hey Jeff, chill out. I'm entitled to my opinion :)

If you remember, I did also say:


Actually, what I wrote was slightly tongue-in-cheek. Although the P10 is to all intents and purposes 'ridiculous', I wish them all the best with it and hope that Rega sell plenty - simply because I like to see British companies doing well in the marketplace.

There's enough Chinese-built and foreign stuff around at the moment, so more power to Rega for throwing their hat into the ring at the high end. It's just not a product that would interest me.


Or did that bit somehow fly over your head? ;)

However, I do sympathise too with the opinion Neil has expressed above - indeed quite a lot, actually. I also have to be honest and say that I don't think ANY turntable is worth that kind of money, for reasons I specified earlier in the thread, so I'm not just singling out Rega's new model. Linn, for example, have long since lost any notions of credibility in reference to their pricing structure.

Some of the prices now being asked at the 'high-end' of hi-fi are bloody ridiculous, and frankly, obscene. It engenders an attitude of elitism which completely goes against my values in audio and those of AOS. Therefore, with respect, if I feel a point needs to be made, I'll make it. I owe no loyalties to anyone :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
25-06-2009, 18:47
Is Roy actually running his company nowadays? When i last visited there a few years ago, there were others actually running it, day-to-day and Roy would come and go as he pleased and tinker here and there. The staff decided how much he was paid, for example..

hifi_dave
25-06-2009, 18:59
I think it's worth pointing out again that the turntable design has not been finalised, nor has the price and it won't see the light of day for at least a year. The published photograph has been removed from the American site because it bears no relationship to the proposed design, it is just one of several mock ups to test performance and reactions. The final product might well be nothing like the pic.

Marco
25-06-2009, 19:36
Fair enough, Dave. The clarification is appreciated. However, it doesn't alter my opinion of whatever turntable Rega decide to release if it is priced at anything like what was mentioned.

As I said, I'm not 'down' on Rega - just on the obscene pricing structure that infects high-end audio. However, Rega are but an insignificant pawn in that particular chess game. In general, they are a company I hold in much regard.

However, AOS will always exist to help people think 'outside of the box' by championing lateral thinking and the use of equipment which we feel offers the highest sound-per-pound value, not that which in our opinion is in direct opposition to those principles. We offer no apologies for that :)

Marco.

bigmoog
29-06-2009, 14:20
I have rega a rb250 and 300 and a 1998 version of the Planet CDP, none are in use but I keep them, as they represent, for me, high quality 'budget' equipment that have given me musical pleasure for reasonable outlay - I always thought Rega offered a real 'you get what you pay for' item....but there's no way I would lay upwards of 6k on any new CDplayer or TT unless they:

1: Were 'worth' the money in engineering and sound quality over and above any rival

2: didnt come with any marketingspin or flatearth propeller headisms


still, I wish Rega luck:)

DSJR
29-06-2009, 15:24
Back in the bad old days, we at Studio 99 were often criticised for not allowing those who could afford it (the Hampstead crowd) the means to "upgrade..." We had the Linn/Naim active 'Briks and that was that - oh, for bass freaks, we had the KEF 107's and we minions were permitted to stock the now forgotten Nakamichi pre's and power's, the latter based on the Threshold Stasis circuit and giving a refreshing change from the up-front harshness that was Naim CB style and the muted grainy deadness which was late-eighties Linn.

Whatever, we could have sold the full Absolute Sounds portfolio instead of a few Sonus Faber speakers and Koetsu cartridges and whether they were better or worse than Naim, it could have saved the business in turnover until the big Naim stuff came out in any case. Naimies buy Naim regardless, the same as Linnies and Beopeople do...

I wish Rega well. They obviously feel (rightly perhaps) that the bottom end of the enthusiast market isn't a stable place to be - they're selling loads of turntables again, but for how long (and I'm asking that genuinely, as the used market is so strong) and maybe feel that there are enough fans of the brand who'll spend the extra and stay loyal... I'm told the new Elicit is very good at the price, maybe this has given them an incentive?

MartinT
29-06-2009, 22:31
Back in the bad old days, we at Studio 99

Was that in Camden High Street? If so, I bought a Michell Syncro from there a lifetime ago.

Marco
30-06-2009, 08:22
I always thought Rega offered a real 'you get what you pay for' item....but there's no way I would lay upwards of 6k on any new CDplayer or TT unless they:

1: Were 'worth' the money in engineering and sound quality over and above any rival

2: didnt come with any marketingspin or flatearth propeller headisms


I completely agree with Jonathan, especially with the bit in bold.

Quite simply, building a genuinely high quality, 'no-compromise' turntable is more of an engineering challenge/exercise than anything else, simply because turntables are mechanical devices with many moving parts. Therefore, it's no surprise that the truly best sounding examples of the breed are statements of serious engineering practice.

In that respect, it's no accident that the likes of Garrard 301s, Technics SP10s (both when in suitable plinths), EMTs and SME30s (the latter you undoubtedly pay handsomely for) outperform much of the competition and are up there with the very best turntables ever made. Observe also models near the top of their ranges from the likes of Kuzma, Clearaudio and Brinkmann, and it is obvious how much of these designs are based on solid engineering principles and practice.

I'm afraid the harsh reality is that Rega, as good a company as they are in their own field, do not have anything like the engineering expertise, or required tooling, at their fingertips of the companies who produced/are producing the turntables above, and so when it comes to charging (if it in fact becomes reality) in excess of 6k for one of their designs, what exactly are you getting for your money in terms of serious engineering?

I'm sorry, but the (now removed) picture of the suggested prototype, or anything resembling it, is in that respect but a toy in comparison with the above mentioned turntable designs, and would certainly not qualify in my book as being anything worthy of a 6k price tag. Certainly not if No1 highlighted in Jonathan's list above is the most important consideration - and for the most discerning audio enthusiasts it always will be. For 6k+ I want something that's engineered to the most exacting standards and built like a brick shithouse, weighs a ton accordingly, and addresses speed stability to the nth degree of accuracy - all of which go some way towards ensuring serious performance.

I've no doubt however that whatever new flagship turntable Rega release onto the market will be considerably superior to anything they've produced before, and undoubtedly will compete very favourably with designs from other manufacturers who occupy the same league in terms of engineering prowess, so that in itself will be an achievement, but in terms of competing with the big boys in their playground, Rega will always be the little boy watching enviously from the sidelines...

I wish Rega all the best with their new high-end product, whatever it may be, but I'm afraid that it will never be taken seriously by the cognoscenti who know what it really takes to make a genuinely high-end turntable worthy of a 6k+ price tag. However, if it's any consolation to Rega fans, I'd have any turntable that they produced for 6k long before I'd have the equivalent from Linn!

Marco.

DSJR
30-06-2009, 08:39
Was that in Camden High Street? If so, I bought a Michell Syncro from there a lifetime ago.

Camden High Street was either Nicholas HiFi (seventies/early eighties) or Subjective Audio (eighties/early nineties?) IIRC. "Our" main shop was in Swiss Cottage (now a totally different "solus" B&O franchise) and the second shop where I worked for many years is also now a B&O only franchise.


It's interesting to see so few of the first wave of Linn/Naim dealers still around and/or selling these brands. Not surprising I suppose as the hippies who started these businesses are now retiring age..

hifi_dave
30-06-2009, 08:55
Camden High Street was either Nicholas HiFi (seventies/early eighties) or Subjective Audio (eighties/early nineties?) IIRC. "Our" main shop was in Swiss Cottage (now a totally different "solus" B&O franchise) and the second shop where I worked for many years is also now a B&O only franchise.


It's interesting to see so few of the first wave of Linn/Naim dealers still around and/or selling these brands. Not surprising I suppose as the hippies who started these businesses are now retiring age..

Cheeky ass*le. :ner:

Marco
30-06-2009, 09:00
Hey, there's nowt wrong with hippies! :peace:

Marco.

MartinT
30-06-2009, 09:39
Camden High Street was either Nicholas HiFi (seventies/early eighties) or Subjective Audio (eighties/early nineties?) IIRC. "Our" main shop was in Swiss Cottage (now a totally different "solus" B&O franchise) and the second shop where I worked for many years is also now a B&O only franchise.

Ah, thanks for that. It was Subjective Audio I was thinking of. I do also remember visiting Studio 99 in Swiss Cottage as I was always there visiting friends.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 11:17
First of all, Rega makes very great sounding arms when mounted on matching high end soft hanging suspended TT's with wooden plinth.

Second, a weak motor pulling the platter with a belt, basically has a far better chance of sounding great than DD. At least the best belt driven are far better sounding than any DD.

Third, Rega made/makes great entry level TT's, just like Technics did. Just forget Rega's attempts of making high end TT's and also forget any claims of Technics being anything but entry level.

"dolph"

Marco
30-06-2009, 11:22
HAHAHAHAHA... Whatever you say, Dolph!! :lolsign:

Marco.

MartinT
30-06-2009, 11:53
At least the best belt driven are far better sounding than any DD.

Then you haven't heard what a good DD can do.

Marco
30-06-2009, 12:00
Indeed.

Martin, that's an old story with Dolph. Trust me, there's no point in going there! ;)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 12:16
Then you haven't heard what a good DD can do.

Indeed I did!

"dolph"

Marco
30-06-2009, 12:18
Of course you have sweety - but was it plugged in first? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
30-06-2009, 13:38
Of course you have sweety - but was it plugged in first? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

With a DD it is of no matter if it's plugged in or not.
:lolsign:

"dolph"

Marco
30-06-2009, 13:42
:lol:

Marco.