Free cartridge upgrade...... it works plus Jelco 750 alignment info

[worrasf]

If it sounds to good to be true it usually is but this is an exception :trust:

Origin Live make a claim that putting nylon washers between cartridge and headshell improves the SQ of all cartridges by decoupling them -analogous to the Cartridge Man's isolater:
http://www.originlive.com/dynavector/cartridge-upgrade-using-5-nylon-washers.html

Having been not totally happy with my cartridge setup and having decided to spend a wet weekend sorting it out it seemed a good time to give the Origin Live claim a try - not least as I had a couple of nylon washers I was not using that came with my Oyaide HS TF headshell

Getting your chosen cartridge alignment (Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson, OEM) right with the Oyaide/Jelco combination is not straight forward as others have commented previously on this forum and elsewhere:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25329

It was a challenge doing this with the Jelco OEM headshell but the Oyaide is worse because the headshell is longer and the mounting slots allow less scope for fore & aft cartridge movement - especially if you want to have the mounting bolt heads recessed in the slots like I do.

I have a custom MINT! tractor that worked well with the OEM Jelco headshell. This was setup to Lofgren A with a 17.9mm overhang as opposed to the OEM Jelco 15mm. The only way of achieving this and hence using the MINT! was to put a rubber washer between the Oyaide and the Jelco. With the cartridge fully pushed forward it would just align - to be fair it aligned perfectly as per Yip's instructions both for overhang and stylus alignment.

The trouble is I just don't like the idea of having a rubber washer in between headshell and arm - I know in the past things always sounded better with the Jelco and Sumiko headshells when I removed it. And indeed when listening after the above setup was dialled in while it was ok it somehow didn't sound quite right - can't be more specific but I just knew I was missing a trick. :scratch:

So, the only alignment that will work with the Oyaide/Jelco is the OEM Jelco with overhang of 15mm and null points of 59mm & 112.5mm. I should mention that I had previously used the OEM Jelco alignment with this combination and was quite happy with the SQ but having spent dollar on the MINT! previously felt I owed it to myself to get that setup to work :eyebrows:

The alignment guide that ships with the Jelco works perfectly and using an Origin Live tractor I can confirm that with the overhang set correctly the above null points are automatically dialled in :) All that's needed is to spend time and patience ensuring the alignment is spot-on with cartridge dead centre in the headshell.

So I had taken the opportunity to slip a nylon washer beneath cartridge and headshell and when happy with alignment, VTA, Azimuth nipped the bolts up tightish. Using slot head bolts rather than allen bolts and a small screwdriver it should not be possible to exert excessive force. A different concept to setting up my old Ittok/Troika where a bench vice was the order of the day :stalks:

Anyway, onto the point of the post - having listened to the setup from the first needle drop I concur with Origin Live's claim. Note: I only used 2 washers in between the cartridge and headshell where they suggest 3 and none between mounting bolts and headshell where they do because I like the bolt heads recessed in the headshell slots.

There is an audible improvement in clarity and definition giving a crisper more vibrant presentation - with complex tracks there is no "bleeding" of notes. This is most marked at the frequency extremes with tighter more tuneful bass and clearer highs. Percussion like castanets and wood blocks are no longer one note instruments but the woody reverb and hollow sound is readily audible. I could detect no downside in SQ or imaging.

So, for a few pence or for free if you have them kicking around all I can say is the next time you have a few hours to spend on setting up your cartridge give this a try - I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

The only potential downside is that it does drop the stylus down a tad and on my setup with arm horizontal it is only about 2mm above the record surface when fully lifted on the cue so care is needed not to stuff the stylus when cueing and lifting :eek:

Steve

[DSJR]

Tried this once and it doesn't work for me... Please remember that this is from the man who bodges up Rega arms, adding loads of midrange resonance to add 'excitement' to an otherwise pretty inert structure, adds other bits of sometimes dubious finish and then sells at a good markup.... in my opinion of course!

The Jelco arm, like all its type, starts off with a disadvantage as the thing has an 'Ortofon/SME' style headshell fixing on the end of the arm pipe. Audible or not, the structural weakness here is easily measured and can be quite severe in some tonearms, although the far eastern audio fraternity seems to have bodged their way around this with fancy expensive headshells (the more expensive they are the better they are of course, and the greater status is conferred on the owner...). Decoupling the cartridge from the headshell is only going to make a compromised situation worse in my book - just look at what the Cartridge-man Isolator does to the bass of his Grado-bodge.....

PLEASE take great care here chaps, science and physics cannot be put aside on this, unless you actually like what's being done - you know what I feel about the 20X cartridge Steve, so I doubt bodging like this is actually going to make a silk finish purse out of a porcine ear.

Just my opinions obviously and yes, I do have some 2.5mm nylon washers at my disposal!

P.S. Didn't these headshell often come with a thin rubber ring-washer around the plug bit to aid snug fitting to the tonearm socket? Surely, taming the breakup resonance here is the best way to deal with things?

[worrasf]

Now now Dave - stop sitting on the fence and say what you mean ;)



P.S. Didn't these headshell often come with a thin rubber ring-washer around the plug bit to aid snug fitting to the tonearm socket? Surely, taming the breakup resonance here is the best way to deal with things?

The standard Jelco did but my Sumiko and the Oyaide were nude.

[NRG]

If you are struggling to get correct alignment with the cartridge as far forward as it will go you can place a copper washer between the arm and headshell, I use a 1mm thick washer with a cutout so as it slots over the headshell locating pins.

The nylon washer tweak is interesting but be careful that what you are hearing is not just down to the changed VTA if you can't adjust the arm height to compensate...

[worrasf]

The copper washer is a good idea - better option methinks than the usual rubber one. I have to say that reverting to the OEM Jelco settings all is fine.
Yes, after using the washers arm height and VTA were reset

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[chelsea]

I use a 9g washer spacer sometimes.
Must try it with the wooden headshell i'm using.

[Marco]

The Jelco arm, like all its type, starts off with a disadvantage as the thing has an 'Ortofon/SME' style headshell fixing on the end of the arm pipe.

It's not a disadvantage, Dave, if other (sonically desirable) aspects of the arm significantly outweigh the above (in reality, tiny) disadvantage, nor is it in any way a disadvantage having a detachable headshell when fitting a cartridge and/or quickly swapping from one cartridge to another!! ;)

Moreover, it is certainly not a disadvantage when, in some cases, the sonically desirable aspects, mentioned above, enable the arm to outperform its fixed-headshell counterparts, as is the case when comparing the Jelco with, say, a Rega arm of approximately the same price, particularly if a low-compliance cartridge is being used. Which arm would best suit a DL-103, I wonder?

Remember that tonearms, just like everything else in hi-fi, are a series of compromises. Therefore, of far more importance is considering how well a tonearm matches the physical and sonic requirements of the partnering cartridge, than whether or not its headshell is fixed or detachable.

Interesting idea with the washers, Stephen. I'm glad that it's proved successful in your set-up. Perhaps a suitably sized piece of Sorbothane would work well with less well-damped headshells than the Oyaide?

Marco.

[worrasf]

Hi Marco
With all the cartridge fettling over the weekend I've now got the upgrade bug again :O
So am putting the DV 20x2 up for sale (will upload details and photies later) to help fund a DV XX2 and in the meantime am dusting off my trusty Decca Blue and sending it off to Presence Audio to have a Deccapod fitted :-)
Will give me time to make a special shelf support for the DV SUP 200 SUT
Steve


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[worrasf]

PS
Given the energy transfer of the Decca I'm assuming the Oyaide headshell would be a better partner than the Sumiko? As I'm not about to layout for a second Oyaide if so the new XX2 can go in it

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Ali Tait]

It's not a disadvantage, Dave, if other (sonically desirable) aspects of the arm significantly outweigh the above (in reality, tiny) disadvantage, nor is it in any way a disadvantage having a detachable headshell when fitting a cartridge and/or quickly swapping from one cartridge to another!! ;)

Moreover, it is certainly not a disadvantage when, in some cases, the sonically desirable aspects, mentioned above, enable the arm to outperform its fixed-headshell counterparts, as is the case when comparing the Jelco with, say, a Rega arm of approximately the same price, particularly if a low-compliance cartridge is being used. Which arm would best suit a DL-103, I wonder?

Remember that tonearms, just like everything else in hi-fi, are a series of compromises. Therefore, of far more importance is considering how well a tonearm matches the physical and sonic requirements of the partnering cartridge, than whether or not its headshell is fixed or detachable.

Interesting idea with the washers, Stephen. I'm glad that it's proved successful in your set-up. Perhaps a suitably sized piece of Sorbothane would work well with less well-damped headshells than the Oyaide?

Marco.

What set up geometry did you use with your Jelco Marco?

I guess my 250 would use the same geometry..

[Stratmangler]

What set up geometry did you use with your Jelco Marco?

I guess my 250 would use the same geometry..

Marco has been using SPUs for ages - he just connects the headshell to the end of the arm and pootles about a bit with the VTA and VTF.
Ortofon seem to prefer Baerwald geometry

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

The ebony armboard that Speedy Steve produced for me was drilled to suit my Ortofon arm, using the protractor supplied with it, which outlined the correct pivot-to-spindle distance, and that in turn facilitates correct cartridge alignment (for my SPU), using Stevenson geometry.

The Ortofon, Jelco, stock Technics SL-1200 arm, and every other Japanese tonearm I've used, all perform optimally with Stevenson. The DL-103 is also optimised that way. If you haven't got your Jelco currently set-up for Stevenson, try it, and you should be in for a nice upgrade! :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Tried this once and it doesn't work for me... Please remember that this is from the man who bodges up Rega arms, adding loads of midrange resonance to add 'excitement' to an otherwise pretty inert structure, adds other bits of sometimes dubious finish and then sells at a good markup.... in my opinion of course!



What an appalling and inaccurate thing to say......

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

The ebony armboard that Speedy Steve produced for me was drilled to suit my Ortofon arm, using the protractor supplied with it, which outlined the correct pivot-to-spindle distance, and that in turn facilitates correct cartridge alignment (for my SPU), using Stevenson geometry.

The Ortofon, Jelco, stock Technics SL-1200 arm, and every other Japanese tonearm I've used, all perform optimally with Stevenson. The DL-103 is also optimised that way. If you haven't got your Jelco currently set-up for Stevenson, try it, and you should be in for a nice upgrade! :)

Marco.

Cheers dude, I'll give it a try. Have it set up with Baerwald at the mo.

[Ali Tait]

Marco has been using SPUs for ages - he just connects the headshell to the end of the arm and pootles about a bit with the VTA and VTF.
Ortofon seem to prefer Baerwald geometry

Aye, but I know he used a Jelco for quite a while, and it seems to be quite difficult to find what the correct geometry is for an arm.

[vinylspinner]

Hi Ali,

Dom and myself set your arm for Baerwald, that is what I use at home, it sounds the best to me, if you recall Owston in November, both our protractors came up the same, which was Baerwald.

Nigel

[Marco]

There are so many variables with this kind of thing (mainly at which point on the record you wish to minimise distortion), that it's best not to get too anal about it, and simply try out the various geometry options, and go with what sounds best, to your ears, in your system :)

However, if you do some proper research, you'll find that Stevenson is the recognised 'optimal' geometry for all Japanese 'S' or 'J'-shaped detachable-headshell tonearms. Even the little plastic overhang/alignment tool (which is surprisingly accurate), and supplied with all new Technics SL-1200/1210 T/Ts, is set up for Stevenson:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/841/am5h.jpg


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/543/gnl1.jpg

Trust me, the manufacturer wouldn't have done that for nothing! ;)

Marco.

[NRG]

The standard 750D parameters from Jelco suggest a Stevenson alignment. However, the best alignment for the Acos Arm on my PL-71 appears to be Baerwald, well it seems to work well!

Edit: Confusing the different alignments up!

[Marco]

Incidentally, returning to the original thread topic, I suspect that this could be a more elegant (if not also more expensive) solution:

http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=265

Worth trying, I think, and not just for those with DL-103s :)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

Dom and myself set your arm for Baerwald, that is what I use at home, it sounds the best to me, if you recall Owston in November, both our protractors came up the same, which was Baerwald.

Nigel

Aye, I remember, that's what I have it set with at the moment. I'll give Stevenson a go when I get time.

[NRG]

Ali, you may want to try this protractor generator from Conrad Hoffman: http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

Works under Windows, all you need is your pivot to spindle distance and selection of groove radius, as you have a Jelco the recommendation is to use DIN and probably LofgrenA but I doubt there's a huge amount of difference between that and Stevenson / IEC

VinylEngine thread where I found it: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=16849

Ah! no external linking, this is the thread title: My new alignment template generator

[Ali Tait]

Cheers Neal, I'll take a look.

[AlexM]

I'm now using a Stephenson alignment on my Jelco/Oyaide/Benz micro Ace SM. Baerwald wasn't achievable without a rubber washer, and then only just... I think the inner alignment position was still fractionally out. With Stephenson alignment, the washer wasn't necessary albeit that the cartridge was still as far forward as it can practically be.

It is working well though, and I think it sounds better without the washer when the modulation peaks.

Regards,
Alex

[krugdoktor]

Hi Alex,
have you seen this:http://www.zyx-audio.com/products_accessories_zyxring.html ?
or this: http://www.miyajima-lab.com/e-others.html#washers ?