Cost of decent SME IV or V for my Orbe SE

[AlfaGTV]

I have a feeling that prices are more reasonable i the UK than over here?
A new IV can be bought from juki over ebay for something like £1050 and that is an option for me. But what the advantages if i would go for a second hand V instead?

I have one on offer here in Sweden. A V Gold plated but the guy is a bit unreasonable, wants well over £2000 for it... :mental:

So what is a reasonable price for a well maintained V in second hand form, or a nice IV for that matter?

Regards Mike

[synsei]

Emporium HiFi have a V for sale on eBay for £1,550, might be worth putting in an offer. It would appear to be the only one on there just now ;)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SME-V-TONEARM-boxed-with-manual-and-accessories-/251435974628?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3a8ac07fe4

[Reffc]

I have a feeling that prices are more reasonable i the UK than over here?
A new IV can be bought from juki over ebay for something like £1050 and that is an option for me. But what the advantages if i would go for a second hand V instead?

I have one on offer here in Sweden. A V Gold plated but the guy is a bit unreasonable, wants well over £2000 for it... :mental:

So what is a reasonable price for a well maintained V in second hand form, or a nice IV for that matter?

Regards Mike

I'd be a little careful at that price ;)

[AlfaGTV]

Thx gents!
I dont believe 2juki sells counterfeit goods! There are to many buyers who will vouch for him!

And i did see the emporium hifi item too. Whats the current prices in GB for the IV / V?

/Mike

[Wakefield Turntables]

You should be able to pick a V up for around £1K you then need to send it to J7 at audio origami for a full service and check over, this shouldnt be that expensive if the example you buy is in good nick. I got him to upgrade mine at a cost of about £300 but then again he did rewire it, add pure silver cartridge tags and fully service it. My V cost £1k about 6-7 years ago.

[Andrei]

I buy most Hi-Fi from overseas, many sources such as MCRU and from 2juki in Hong Kong. No problems and quick delivery. Someone, Marco I think, pointed out that the issue with 2nd hand arms can be the bearing. Even then the risk can be ameliorated by, as Rexton says, getting it serviced.

[Audioman]

Thx gents!
I dont believe 2juki sells counterfeit goods! There are to many buyers who will vouch for him!

And i did see the emporium hifi item too. Whats the current prices in GB for the IV / V?

/Mike

Extortionate - nearly £3K for the V. Buy a 309, virtually the same arm (simplified and advantage of detachable head shell). SME use the same bearings in 309/iv/v now. £1300 for a new arm is less than often the asking price for V's many years old. Unless you have a super expensive system doubt you will notice much if any difference.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I bought my SME 3012 for OZ! I sent it to J7 and he completely serviced the whole thing, including sorting of the bearing. Someone like J7 or Dom at NWA should easily be able to do the work.

[Tarzan]

There is a chap on Wigwam selling a 1V ( is that ok mods?).

[The Barbarian]

I bought my SME 3012 for OZ!

Much prefer that arm..

[Tarzan]

I buy most Hi-Fi from overseas, many sources such as MCRU and from 2juki in Hong Kong. No problems and quick delivery. Someone, Marco I think, pointed out that the issue with 2nd hand arms can be the bearing. Even then the risk can be ameliorated by, as Rexton says, getting it serviced.


B'Jesus- Brooky moved to Hong Kong? Tax purposes?:eek:

[AlfaGTV]

Thanks for all input here!
Unfortunately emporiumhifi wont accept offers below the £1550 requested.
Tried the wam but couldnt find any SME IV/V of interest for sale. (Other than a IV with suspicious damage)

I am beginning to lean towards a V, but there are some versions of these around too?
With removable headshell
Gold print
Gold plated

Other than the obvious practical advantage of a removable headshell, are there any audible diffences between editions?

Regards Mike

[SLS]

Thanks for all input here!
Unfortunately emporiumhifi wont accept offers below the £1550 requested.
Tried the wam but couldnt find any SME IV/V of interest for sale. (Other than a IV with suspicious damage)

I am beginning to lean towards a V, but there are some versions of these around too?
With removable headshell
Gold print
Gold plated

Other than the obvious practical advantage of a removable headshell, are there any audible diffences between editions?

Regards Mike

There's another one here

http://www.centralaudio.co.uk/index.php?page=products&id=464

I bought quite a few items from Tony and he's a very nice guy, open to offers. He's had this arm quite a while.
Not far from Audio Origami to check out/upgrade.

[hifi_dave]

In the UK the SME IV is £1894 and the V is £2750.

Occasionally, I have a dem one.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Stick with the fixed head shell, you dont have to piss about aligning overhang etc, with regards the gold version I would just ignore this, buy a normal V and upgrade any surfaces that conduct with silver.

[paskinn]

Over the years I've had a load of Series Fives, and also the 12inch version. A few basic points.
1) Because the Five was released 25 years ago, and is largely unmodified, with no 'mark 11s', it has become an unusually 'mature' market...there are few bargains. You get what you pay for.
2) Like everything else, they do 'age'...especially the bearings and slightly vulnerable bits like the hydraulic lift mechanism. Wiring can go short circuit too. Therefore either buy a late model, around £1800, or buy a nice old model and have it serviced by J7 or SME (if you have worn bits, such as bearings, SME sometimes replace them for free, so the more expensive SME service is sometimes a bit of a bargain.) otherwise, J7 is a sensible option.
3) The series Four and Five are essentially the same arm, the Five has the damper and easier vta adjustment, but identical performance. The 309 gets very close..and as been said, it's hard to hear the difference.
4) The 12inch versions are especially lovely, if your deck is big enough. To my ears they do sound a bit better (smoother, more at ease).
5) Don't forget the 'M' series. These arms can sound really fine and cost a lot less. there is a bit of 'snobbery' here. In many systems an M10 will work just as well..depending on cartridge. In the same way, the j shaped 12inch version with an SPU is pretty unbeatable.

Finally, if you are feeling flush, buy a new arm. That way you know it has been well cared for. Keep it for many years, getting J7 to give it a check up once in a while. Buy it in the country you live, support local dealers. You might need them at some point.
And don't forget to keep the box, leaflets and all tools....they are pricey to replace. If buying second hand, you want this stuff, or a lower price. The absence of tools and a box is the first warning sign that the arm may not have been treated with loving care. Too many of them have had a lot of owners, which, like cars, is not good. You want a one-owner sample with box and tools.

[AlfaGTV]

Thanks paskinn, thats all very good advice and knowledge! :)
I'll be looking around for a while, something will surely turn up, even if i have to pay a bit more than expected.
Besides, my Orbe is making beautiful noise with its Audio Origami RB-250 atm.

Regards Mike

[Marco]

Hi Peter,


2) Like everything else, they do 'age'...especially the bearings and slightly vulnerable bits like the hydraulic lift mechanism. Wiring can go short circuit too.

Indeed, but of course according to the 'cognoscenti' on pfm, SME arms are completely immune from any aspects of ageing and/or deterioration, due to extended use, or the effects of the environment...

Good job you're thick-skinned, so well done for keeping your cool against the unfortunate behaviour of some of the old miseries over there. The intolerance, sneering disdain and overall unpleasant tone, shown on certain contributions on that thread, was unacceptable. I've never understood why folk have to be so condescending and rude when disagreeing with someone else's opinion. It's pathetic and completely unnecessary.

Anyway, like you said: "It is clear to me that many people don't want their illusions disturbed." You've hit the nail on the head there!! ;)

Also, as someone else said, how can you be sure that your tonearm definitely won't benefit from a service? Here I'm not thinking necessarily of bearing wear, but rather, as Mark (YNWaN) pointed out: "What is possible is that five years of being in a centrally heated room starts to dry out the bearing lubricant and stiction increases."

Barrymagrec also wrote something similar: "The only reason that I can see for servicing an arm would be to clean the build up of dirt and dried lubricant in the bearings, assuming no physical damage. How frequently this is required must depend on the circumstances of use."

Therefore, for a moment, leaving aside actual bearing wear, simply by flushing out and re-lubing the bearings, as well as checking the bearing torque, after five years of use, and making any appropriate adjustments (especially when, as you said, SME reported the bearings on your arm as having loosened slightly), who's to say that the cumulative effect of all of that wouldn't not only have improved performance, but have been, legitimately, entirely necessary after a tonearm had been used every day and exposed to temperature and environmental fluctuations for five years??

I'm pretty certain it would, especially as I consider the above as feasible areas for concern (particularly the highlighted bit in blue) after a tonearm has been extensively used over such a period of time, and so, IMO, perfectly explain what you've heard and reported with your Series V, much to the disdain of those whose thought processes are unfortunately rigidly governed by their engineering and/or scientific doctrine (or pedantic idiots who simply get off on being argumentative)! :rolleyes:

Basically, it's the usual case of intolerant sceptics pooh-poohing that which doesn't fit with their academic belief system.

Anyway, I hope you're enjoying AoS. I think you'll find that people here are rather more open-minded, friendly, and tolerant of views that make you consider something as relevant, which you perhaps hadn't considered before!

Marco.

P.S For those interested in reading the thread on pfm, it is here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151083

[Joe]

Anyway, I hope you're enjoying AoS. I think you'll find that people here are rather more open-minded, friendly, and tolerant of views that make you consider something as relevant, which you perhaps hadn't considered before!


As long as you don't mention what book you're reading!

[Ali Tait]

:lol:

[AlfaGTV]

I bought my SME 3012 for OZ!
Ahem, what does this mean? Sorry for being thick... :scratch:




Much prefer that arm..
Please elaborate! Is it up to the lessend tracking error? Or the increased effective mass? Or even the increase in resonance? ;)
Its not an option though, as the Orbe wont accept a 12" arm...

And, Mr. Barbarian, it's easier to respond to PM's if you would accept incoming PM's! :)

Best wishes
//Mike

[PaulStewart]

As far as service schedule for SME arms, for IV and V models I have always said get them factory checked every 5 years. As pointed out, the IV gives 99% of the performance of the V but without damper and with more fiddly VTA adjustment. Well SME sell the damper as a separate item for the IV and it gives you the VTA adjuster too. As I'm not overly fond of spring loaded arms. This combo does the business for me, it's an easy fit and really lifts the performance all the way up. In fact having A/Bd them, I think a tricked out silver wired IV is a better arm. :sofa:

[PaulStewart]

BTW I used the IV on my Orbe SE with both a Goldring Excel and Koetsu Rosewood Signature, it's a great combination.

[paskinn]

What sheer delight to hear the observations of balanced, intelligent, individuals. Marco is spot-on with his comments about dirt and stuff in the bearings...mine were apparently dirty. The essential point has been grasped by people on this forum...precision instruments are worth looking after, and that involves a little maintenance and checking.
Certainly, after five years of daily use, my arm did need a little love and attention...and I hadn't realised it, I sent the arm back because the internal wiring had developed a very occasional short (a brief drop-out about once an hour.) These things can happen, SME are a fine firm, and in my experience, most people who buy their stuff are pretty level-headed.
Anyway, you've cheered me up. Thanks.

[CageyH]

Just out of interest, has anybody tried an FXR-II incomparison?
Whilst doing research for my arm purchase, an awful lot of reviews placed the FXR-II in the same class as the SME IV and V. How true this is, I cannot say, but I thought I would throw this one out there.
I know it's just a modified Rega, but surely it's worth a listen?

[Clive197]

As long as you don't mention what book you're reading!

Currently reading "Enders Game" by Orson Scott Card.

On the subject of SME arms, a friend of mine owns a 309 with a Shure M75 in it. I asked him a couple of weeks ago when he last used it and was told about 20yrs ago. I decided and with his permission if I could have a play. The arm is mounted on a Thorens TD160. I'm here to tell one and all that it sounded excellent, the arm moved easily and freely. My fiends wife said it was just taking up room and she didn't think it was worth much and was thinking of selling it. She thought she would be lucky to get twenty quid for it. Being a friend for the best part of 40yrs, I put her right, she was dumbfounded, but I did ask for first refusal after she had finished using it as a flower pot stand (NOT kidding).

Clive

[AlfaGTV]

...
On the subject of SME arms, a friend of mine owns a 309 with a Shure M75 in it. I asked him a couple of weeks ago when he last used it and was told about 20yrs ago. I decided and with his permission if I could have a play. The arm is mounted on a Thorens TD160.
...

Clive

I am having trouble getting this together? Surely you must mean an SME 3009???
It would be possible, but not practical to mount a 309 on a TD160?
And my first choice of cart would NOT be a Shure M75! :)
Besides, the 309 is no more than 26 years of age, me thinks...

Anyhoots, i'm progressing in my search of the illusive V, turned out my local dealer had one, freshly mounted to a SOTA tt... Awaiting offer on that one, and also have been contacted by PM by a couple of members here!
And, as an option, a friendly dealer offered me a 309, in pristine condition less than a year old.

(Something like £850 for the 309, seems reasonable)

Thanks for all of your input!

[Clive197]

I am having trouble getting this together? Surely you must mean an SME 3009???
It would be possible, but not practical to mount a 309 on a TD160?
And my first choice of cart would NOT be a Shure M75! :)
Besides, the 309 is no more than 26 years of age, me thinks...

Anyhoots, i'm progressing in my search of the illusive V, turned out my local dealer had one, freshly mounted to a SOTA tt... Awaiting offer on that one, and also have been contacted by PM by a couple of members here!
And, as an option, a friendly dealer offered me a 309, in pristine condition less than a year old.

(Something like £850 for the 309, seems reasonable)

Thanks for all of your input!

Your absolutely right, I did mean 3009. I obviously had a senior moment with my typing.

The SME 3009 was a low mass arm and not ideal for MC cartridges unless you had the add- on fluid damper. The Shure M75 was an ideal cartridge at the time if you could not afford a V15III. I wasn't actually suggesting you buy a M75, I was mearly discussing the quality of a SME arm from personal experience.

Clive

[Oldpinkman]

Just out of interest, has anybody tried an FXR-II incomparison?
Whilst doing research for my arm purchase, an awful lot of reviews placed the FXR-II in the same class as the SME IV and V. How true this is, I cannot say, but I thought I would throw this one out there.
I know it's just a modified Rega, but surely it's worth a listen?

Yup. In another league. Amazing what the sme loses. Nb- I have an fxr on my tt right now and it belongs to funk firm. Arthur is a friend. That doesn't make the arm any less good. He has a 309 at the factory for comparison and pink triangle used the 5 as THE only arm for demo and shows in the anniversary days.

[Chops]

Some used SME here http://www.unique-audio.co.uk/used.html.

[Reffc]

What sheer delight to hear the observations of balanced, intelligent, individuals. Marco is spot-on with his comments about dirt and stuff in the bearings...mine were apparently dirty. The essential point has been grasped by people on this forum...precision instruments are worth looking after, and that involves a little maintenance and checking.
Certainly, after five years of daily use, my arm did need a little love and attention...and I hadn't realised it, I sent the arm back because the internal wiring had developed a very occasional short (a brief drop-out about once an hour.) These things can happen, SME are a fine firm, and in my experience, most people who buy their stuff are pretty level-headed.
Anyway, you've cheered me up. Thanks.


+1 :clap:

Spot on Peter.

[AlfaGTV]

Thanks again for all of yours input!
Actually found a briefly demoed all new SME V at very most local dealer! (About 1200metres from my flat)
Looking very much forward to mounting this beautiful proof of craftmanship!
ATB Mike

[Tarzan]

Thanks again for all of yours input!
Actually found a briefly demoed all new SME V at very most local dealer! (About 1200metres from my flat)
Looking very much forward to mounting this beautiful proof of craftmanship!
ATB Mike

:cool: Lusted after an SME V for years- just to look at if nothing else, incredible craftsmanship. Glad it has worked out for you Mike.:)

[loo]

Sounds lovely Mike, the Orbe and the SME V are a classic combination
enjoy them#
cheers
Paul

[stevied]

Morch Dp6 works very well on an Orbe,use that combination myself!

[Gazjam]

Over the years I've had a load of Series Fives, and also the 12inch version. A few basic points.
1) Because the Five was released 25 years ago, and is largely unmodified, with no 'mark 11s', it has become an unusually 'mature' market...there are few bargains. You get what you pay for.
2) Like everything else, they do 'age'...especially the bearings and slightly vulnerable bits like the hydraulic lift mechanism. Wiring can go short circuit too. Therefore either buy a late model, around £1800, or buy a nice old model and have it serviced by J7 or SME (if you have worn bits, such as bearings, SME sometimes replace them for free, so the more expensive SME service is sometimes a bit of a bargain.) otherwise, J7 is a sensible option.
3) The series Four and Five are essentially the same arm, the Five has the damper and easier vta adjustment, but identical performance. The 309 gets very close..and as been said, it's hard to hear the difference.
4) The 12inch versions are especially lovely, if your deck is big enough. To my ears they do sound a bit better (smoother, more at ease).
5) Don't forget the 'M' series. These arms can sound really fine and cost a lot less. there is a bit of 'snobbery' here. In many systems an M10 will work just as well..depending on cartridge. In the same way, the j shaped 12inch version with an SPU is pretty unbeatable.

Finally, if you are feeling flush, buy a new arm. That way you know it has been well cared for. Keep it for many years, getting J7 to give it a check up once in a while. Buy it in the country you live, support local dealers. You might need them at some point.
And don't forget to keep the box, leaflets and all tools....they are pricey to replace. If buying second hand, you want this stuff, or a lower price. The absence of tools and a box is the first warning sign that the arm may not have been treated with loving care. Too many of them have had a lot of owners, which, like cars, is not good. You want a one-owner sample with box and tools.

Seriously?
Best post I've ever read on Artofsound, and the best common sense "I'm actually experienced, yet modest, and know what I'm talking about" advice (and acting to help your fellow hifi nut) I've read in 18 years of forum use.

Bravo Sir, and as a future SME V owner (from new I think?)....thanks.

[AlfaGTV]

Some very good advise was issued in this thread about a year ago, and i am extremely happy with my SME V still today.
It is easy to manage and handle, whether changing pickup or simply playing a record. A very important factor, as i have a few carts which gets even use.

It was an expensive item, but i am still very happy with the purchase. Would very much like to hear what an FX-R or Kuzma Stogi Ref would sound like though!

[Gazjam]

Didn't notice it was an old thread! :)
Glad I noticed it though, great advice.

Its expensive, but cant think of another arm I'd rather put on my Michell deck.
A tonearm for life, as they say.

[CageyH]

I can think of a couple I'd like to audition along with the SME.

[Gazjam]

g'wan then? :)

[CageyH]

They have mainly been mentioned in this thread already.

AO PU7
Funk FX-R (really impressed with what my Techie specific version does)
SME V
And if it comes out on time, the Funk AK47 mentioned on the forum.
If it's better than the FX-R, it will be something special.

[petrat]

Suggest you could also consider the current Audio Note Arm3, which saw off a SMEIV at PetRat manor.

[Rush2112]

Many years ago I auditioned a PT Anni with SME V at the time I owned an Alphason Sonata with HRS 100MCS and was looking to upgrade to say I was disappointed with Anni and SME was putting it mildly ! Then during a search for a Silver Sounds dealer I had the opportunity to listen to the Anni with the SME 3009 and also with the SME IV and I was blown away by both ! Clearly the IV was better so why did the V disappoint at an earlier audition ? Well simple it was all about set up and a badly set up cartridge / arm / turntable is not going to sound great. When the V was put on the Anni it totally delivered add to this the added benefit of ease of set up when changing cartridges etc and it's a combination hard to beat and 20 plus years on still one I use daily !

[Gazjam]

Suggest you could also consider the current Audio Note Arm3, which saw off a SMEIV at PetRat manor.

Or get an Audio Note One are and get J7 to rewire with Ikeda silver wire? ;)

Second thoughts on the V here after reading up a lot on alternatives and realising at was swayed "a tad" by the looks factor and the Michell/SME mythos...
Also, at 3K new it's a lot of money.

Thinking Audio Note One with Ikeda rewire, though after a recent get together at mine was advised my rewired Technoarm sounded very fine indeed and would need to spend a lot to get a significant upgrade...
Food for thought.

[Ali Tait]

How much was the rewire of your arm Gaz?

Might get mine done..

[Rush2112]

Diminishing returns ! It is after all, as much about the extra gain in sound quality over the cost to change. A friend once told me a Koetsu Urushi was the most he could ever justify spending on a cartridge when you factor in lifecycle and gain in sound quality ! So if your treated Technoarm is delivering then why change it !

[Gazjam]

How much was the rewire of your arm Gaz?

Might get mine done..


Kept the internal silver Michell wire and cart tags Ali, just got the external cable redone.
£135 and WELL worth it.
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/tone-arm-rewires/

[Ali Tait]

Ah, that must mean mine has been done in the past, it's hardwired from tags to RCA's.

[Ali Tait]

I think..

[Gazjam]

Mibbay not Ali, the standard Michell cabling is exactly that, from tags to phono's.

Is it quite a thin cable with black sleeving?
Does it have the Michell phono plugs on it?

What Jonny did with mine was cut the cable and fit a plug at the base of the arm, from there he fitted his own external cable.
Sounds a lot better (Less "silver" if you know what I mean?) than before.

With all the solder joints in the phono stage and pre-amp, I figured another one in the arm wouldnt make much odds. :)
Took Jonnys advice on this.

[Ali Tait]

It's black cable with four coloured leads inside. Dunno what the plugs were, I changed them for WBT's.

Which cable did you have fitted?

[Gazjam]

It was the SOFC (silver and ofc copper cocktail) with separate earth wire and modified gold phonos.
Its about half way down the page HERE:
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/tone-arm-rewires/
under "External Wire"

Its Van Damme Pro cable Ali.
Way better sounding than the stock Michell silver cable I had on before, which from what you say sounds like the stuff you have on yours.
Give Jonny a shout on his forum HERE:
http://www.thecrossovernetwork.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?35-Audio-Origami

[Ali Tait]

Cheers mate, will have a look. Think I'd rather have the whole thing hardwired though..

[Gazjam]

I just took Jonny's advice Ali, was happy to throw money at him but he said I didn't have to.

Is the Trans-Fi arm still somewhere down the line for you?
If so even just getting the upgraded external cable is a big enough upgrade to see you over I'd say.

[Ali Tait]

Yes possibly, or a 12" arm.

I'll have to come over for a listen..

[Gazjam]

Aye!