View Full Version : How accurate is the Vinyl Engine Tonearm Resonater Calculator
CableMaker1
30-01-2014, 22:13
According to the Vinyl Engine Tonearm Resonater Calculator, my cartridges are out of compliance with my tonearms. When I purchased a new cartridge and tonearm a few years back for my Techie - I had not known about cartridge and tonearm matching, nor about resonating frequencies relating to the tonearm and cartridge matching until recently.
I have to admit that I am getting the best sound ever from my turntable since performing the mods a few years ago. But now with this new knowledge - I am thinking - is there a part of the music that I am missing since I may not have properly matched my cartridge to the tonearm a few years back?
hi Mike. it depends on the cartridge a lot of Japanese cartridge manufactures use a compliance figure at 100hz where as the ve calculator uses 10hz so lots of carts are actually have higher compliance than shown .Your AT33 should be fine with your SME arm as I think your ears are telling you .
cheers Paul
The Barbarian
30-01-2014, 23:45
tbh ive has some technically disasterous mismatches that sounded superb!
walpurgis
30-01-2014, 23:48
tbh ive has some technically disasterous mismatches that sounded superb!
Yup, me too. High mass, low compliance MCs in a low mass Mission 774 arm should throw up problems, but it always works. I just use a minimal bit of fluid damping.
CableMaker1
31-01-2014, 00:27
tbh ive has some technically disasterous mismatches that sounded superb!
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
I should have also mentioned that according to the VE calculations, my "mismatches" are off by 5Hz or less according to VEs compliance measurements.
I take it Audio Technica is a Japanese company, that is mated to an English tonearm. Who says that a pair from two different continents cant get along???
Err.. what does it all mean?
Does getting it right eliminate things like excess cone movement of your bass drivers etc (i.e. excess resonance follows through to your amps and speakers) or is it about keeping the cart steady in the groove, stop it mistracking, bouncing a bit and stuff?
It's to ensure that the resonant frequency of the arm/cart combination doesn't drop below about 7 or 8 Hz and not to rise above 12Hz. Below the lowest figure, resonance can be set up in the system from warped records or even foot-fall on a suspended floor, plus unwanted HF damping can result. Above 12 hz and mistracking can be a problem. As already mentioned, some (not all) Japanese manufacturers use 100Hz so a correction factor is needed when using the calculators. A rule of thumb is to multiply Japanese cart compliance figures (measured at 100Hz) by 1.5-2.0 and the opposite is true of some USA cartridges, where the figure should be halved.
Whilst some cartridge/arm combinations may fall outside of the ideal resonance match, bear in mind that if they lay above the ideal figure, then typically a boost of 3 to 6dB in system output happens around resonance which can affect SQ and in extreme cases, cause mis-tracking, record surface and stylus damage. The only way to be sure is to use a test LP and ensure that there are no mis-tracking issues and that the sound doesn't become too bloated or lifted at resonance.
Some combinations may be fine and for higher resonance figures don't forget that effective mass can be increased (headshell weights) to bring the resonance point down to the ideal range.
The effective mass of your SME V is about 11.5g with some nice Stainless cartridge fittings. The AT compliance is measured as 10@100Hz. Multiply 10 by 1.8 to get the compliance at 10Hz = 18, go to the VinylEngine calculator and you'll see the combination is just fine, nicely in the Green Zone... :D See, subjectivism and measurement can agree once in a while!
:lolsign:
Oldpinkman
31-01-2014, 08:30
Yup, me too. High mass, low compliance MCs in a low mass Mission 774 arm should throw up problems, but it always works. I just use a minimal bit of fluid damping.
Why? If the cartridge mass is high, that will give a fairly high effective mass, which is what a low compliance MC needs. I had always been told that adding weight at the effective length increased effective mass considerably more compared with an even distribution of weight over the length of the arm. So I would have expected a heavy cartridge / headshell on a light weight arm to have a higher effective mass.
Indeed, which is precisely why a Denon DL-103 works superbly well, fitted on the end of a Hadcock GH242, providing that the requisite amount of mass has been added to the headshell...
Marco.
Would seem that members are totally unaware of this pertinent article residing in The Knowledge:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22373-Arm-cartridge-resonance.
Remember these are calculations and are only a guide to how an arm/cartridge combination will behave. You can get away with deviation from the 'optimum' if a little damping is used. As in all things, use a test record and your ears!
Oldpinkman
31-01-2014, 09:53
Indeed, which is precisely why a Denon DL-103 works superbly well, fitted on the end of a Hadcock GH242, providing that the requisite amount of mass has been added to the headshell...
Marco.
Assuming you accept a DL103 works well at all. Not my cup of tea when I heard one down at Arthurs for the first time recently, although I appreciate they have a big following, and he was puffing out his chest defending it. Horses for courses I guess :cool:
walpurgis
31-01-2014, 09:57
Assuming you accept a DL103 works well at all. Not my cup of tea when I heard one down at Arthurs for the first time recently, although I appreciate they have a big following, and he was puffing out his chest defending it. Horses for courses I guess :cool:
I have had several DL-103 variants, but have now moved on. :)
Assuming you accept a DL103 works well at all. Not my cup of tea when I heard one down at Arthurs for the first time recently, although I appreciate they have a big following, and he was puffing out his chest defending it. Horses for courses I guess :cool:
Yup, although the only way you'll *really* know whether you like it or not, is after hearing it optimally partnered in the right arm/headshell (with sufficient headshell mass, think 15g minimum. Jap detachable headshell 'S' or 'J'-shaped arms are best), preferably on a direct-drive or idler T/T, and through an appropriate SUT.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that those weren't the conditions in which you heard it? ;)
Anyway, my original point still stands (where I agreed with you): increasing the effective mass of a tonearm is best achieved by adding mass to the headshell.
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-01-2014, 12:28
I have had several DL-103 variants, but have now moved on. :)
What did you move on to Geoff?
What did you move on to Geoff?
Accrington Stanley????....oh sorry, thought you said "where" for a moment :lol:
Oldpinkman
31-01-2014, 12:53
Yup, although the only way you'll *really* know whether you like it or not, is after hearing it optimally partnered in the right arm/headshell (with sufficient headshell mass, think 15g minimum. Jap detachable headshell 'S' or 'J'-shaped arms are best), preferably on a direct-drive or idler T/T, and through an appropriate SUT.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that those weren't the conditions in which you heard it? ;)
Anyway, my original point still stands (where I agreed with you): increasing the effective mass of a tonearm is best achieved by adding mass to the headshell.
Marco.
You're right - we agree - increasing the effective mass is best achieved by adding mass at the headshell. We should cherish the moment and bond ;)
I was listening on a Techie with standard arm, mostly to FGTH "Ferry across the Mersey" (it seemed) and with no SUT ( Technics Moving coil amp). But I don't think arm/cartridge resonance or dodgy amplification were the issue. It was typical gritty treble cheap moving coil and reinforced my prejudices regarding those cartridges. I didn't know what it was until after listening finished and I commented that it wasn't the Goldring and I didn't like it. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't horrible - just a bit brash. And I have other cartridges I am far happier with in the rest of the system I listen in, and have no desire to try every permutation of arm, cartridge, SUT, preamp and sofa. So , it wasn't for me (and is in good company in that regard) :)
That's fine, Richard. I can completely understand your observations, as I would've most likely heard the same thing in that set-up.
The stock Techy arm is useless for a DL-103, primarly because you can't get it to sit low enough (level), due to the shallow shape of the cartridge, in order to achieve optimal VTA, even with the arm wound down as low as possible. Therefore, with a 103 fitted, the arm will still sit slightly 'tail-up', which will have been the primary reason for the "brash/gritty" (most probably also rather 'spitty') sound that you heard.
Couple that with the lack of mass (presuming that the stock Technics headshell was used, with no added headshell weight), and the stock arm's rather resonant and 'shouty' sounding armtube, which will both have contributed to the 'brashness', and I'm not surprised you heard what you did :)
The DL-103 harks from an era where the requirements for vinyl playback were rather different from what they are today, so trying to accommodate one successfully into a modern system is often akin to attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole. As such, the DL-103 should really be viewed as a 'quirky' enthusiast's design (not for general consumption), where the user has the necessary experience to enable the cartridge to realise its full potential.
If you can make it to Macca's bake-off at Stoke University on 28th June, I shall have a DL-103 (along with an Ortofon SPU) fitted to my Techy, and be demonstrating it accordingly. I'd be confident that if you heard the 103 in that context, while it still might not be to your tastes, the last thing it will sound like is brash.
Marco.
walpurgis
31-01-2014, 19:26
What did you move on to Geoff?
The MC I use most is a ZYX R100 H2 which is quite astonishing.
Cartridges I also occasionally use are a very sweet sounding Ortofon MC25 FL, ZYX R50 H Bloom, ZYX R100 H (not H2), Goldring Eroica LX and my remaining three vintage (but lovely sounding) ADCs. They are all fine sounding carts.
Tis funny, I'm getting more and more from my re-bodied 103R and I've recently invested in an SA and D version....hoping to do a detailed comparison soon.
walpurgis
31-01-2014, 22:59
If you can make it to Macca's bake-off at Stoke University on 28th June, I shall have a DL-103 (along with an Ortofon SPU) fitted to my Techy, and be demonstrating it accordingly. I'd be confident that if you heard the 103 in that context, while it still might not be to your tastes, the last thing it will sound like is brash.
Marco.
Same old debate I know, but I have to say I've never heard a DL-103 sound "brash". It's a pleasant enough cartridge, especially the 'R' version which is surprisingly good and at the price you certainly can't complain, but compared to other (dearer) MCs (at least in standard form), to my ears at least, it has limitations. I know I've said it before, but I compared the 103R directly with the ZYX R50 Bloom and it was an immediate 'no contest' win for the ZYX and the dearer ZYX R100 H2 takes the game up a good few notches further. Even the beautifully mellifluous Ortofon MC 25FL I own sounds superior to the 103R.
Yup, Geoff (brash it shouldn't be, if all is well), however a lot depends on how you listen to music and what your sonic preferences are (or rather chosen balance of compromises). No cartridge is perfect, certainly not a DL-103, as its (hi-fi) prowess is ultimately governed by the limitations in accuracy of its spherical stylus, unless it is re-tipped with something superior.
However, get the 103 set-up right (as I've outlined), and musically it can be an extremely addictive listen, especially when shed of its (horribly resonant) plastic body-shell, which incidentally is what also holds back the 103R ;)
Anyway, if you can make the Stoke bake-off, all I ask is that you listen and judge for yourself. If you still don't like it, then at least you can say that you've heard a DL-103 optimally set-up and partnered in a sympathetic system, and so you'll be able to comment on its merits (or otherwise) from a greater position of authority :)
Marco.
walpurgis
31-01-2014, 23:22
Anyway, if you can make the Stoke bake-off, all I ask is that you listen and judge for yourself. If you still don't like it, then at least you can say that you've heard a DL-103 optimally set-up and partnered in a sympathetic system :) Marco.
I'd love to do the bake-off Marco, but I really, really, hate driving long journeys. Shame, I could have brought my TT along and shown the lads how it's all supposed to sound.
Maybe someone else going from your neck of the woods could give you a lift? :)
Marco.
walpurgis
31-01-2014, 23:39
Maybe someone else going from your neck of the woods could give you a lift? :)
Marco.
No, I go everywhere under my own steam. Just don't like travelling much. :)
Ali Tait
31-01-2014, 23:52
The MC I use most is a ZYX R100 H2 which is quite astonishing.
Cartridges I also occasionally use are a very sweet sounding Ortofon MC25 FL, ZYX R50 H Bloom, ZYX R100 H (not H2), Goldring Eroica LX and my remaining three vintage (but lovely sounding) ADCs. They are all fine sounding carts.
Cheers Geoff, yes read good things about ZYX. Since trashing the 103r, I fitted an Acutex M312 I bought from a member here. Have to say I'm really enjoying it. Slight loss of the airy sound I was getting from the Denon, but the mids and especially the bass are great. Amazing VFM cart.
... Even the beautifully mellifluous Ortofon MC 25FL I own sounds superior to the 103R.
OK now I know where you are coming from. I've lived with a MC 25FL for many many years and mellifluous it is not. It is bright detailed and at times harsh and strident. It does not drive a bass line and has the presentation of a HiFi dem at a dealer, impressive on a short demo but ultimately unsatisfying over a long acquaintance. ;)
OK now I know where you are coming from. I've lived with a MC 25FL for many many years and mellifluous it is not. It is bright detailed and at times harsh and strident. It does not drive a bass line and has the presentation of a HiFi dem at a dealer, impressive on a short demo but ultimately unsatisfying over a long acquaintance. ;)
Perhaps in Geoff's system it sounds a little different, Neal? I suspect it does, heard through big vintage Tannoys.
I know exactly the sound you describe, though, (most AT cartridges also exhibit that style of presentation), and it's the complete antithesis of what I desire, or indeed consider as musically realistic.
However, some people like that 'super-clean', 'highly-polished', rather 'hi-fi' sort of sound, and consider it as 'accurate'. Count me out, as I consider it simply as coloration (an inherent and distinctive 'sonic signature'), in the same way as some may find the 103 'blowsy' or 'euphonic'. 'Driving a bass line' (as you describe) is something that the 103 does exceptionally well, and which is highly addictive with beat-driven music. It's what gies it its fun factor! :)
That type of presentation is also fundamental to my musical enjoyment.
The 103 also has a beautifully textured and 'valve-like' midrange, which makes instruments, such as trumpets and sax, sound scarily real. Most of all, however, tonally, it is 'big-boned', and so underpins music with realistic weight and scale, which is largely absent in today's 'bleached-out', lightweight sounding (in comparison), 'squeaky-clean' and 'treble-emphasised' moving-coil cartridge designs.
Like I said, much depends on the area of the audio spectrum your ears tune into most, so if you're a 'squeaky-clean detail freak', attracted more to super-clean treble, than genuine deep bass, a DL-103 is never going to be your thing, much the same as if your sonic proclivities lean more towards a rhythmically adroit, beautifully mellifluous, bass-driven sound (count me in), an OC-9 or Lyra is not likely ever to grace your tonearm.
However, given that Geoff is a big Tannoy fan, I'm surprised that he doesn't like the intrinsic 'DL-103 sound', as it (along with the SPU), in that respect, are the 'vintage Tannoys' of the cartridge world, and when synergistically partnered, exhibit the very musical characteristics he treasures over the often 'spot-lit' presentation of modern speakers.
Perhaps he just hasn't heard the DL-103 in the way that you or I have described? I suspect that he's far from alone, which is why I seek to 'spread the word', as it were, about the 'old nail' as much as possible, as the vast majority of people these days have never heard it at its best. At the end of the day, I will always value tone and texture, and genuine scale, more than 'super-clean treble extension', with any audio component or system.
YMMV.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
01-02-2014, 08:41
Marco - I would love to come to the June knees-up, and intend to. The road to hell however, is paved with good intentions, I tend to have a lot on, its a long way, my daughter will have finished college, and if I were travelling all that distance to play with HiFi I'd have visiting Paul at Reffc to listen to the Zyx as a high priority. However, Martin is one of the good guys, and it would be good to meet him (I suspect Al's Essex girl fiesta's may be a long haul for him) so I have the good intention, and will be interested to hear the Denon "done proper".
I think careless talk on my part may have given the wrong impression. First, I am not a reviewer - I am looking for one cartridge for me. I don't need it to be the best, or shiniest, just avoid doing anything that leaves me wishing it didn't. Arthur, bless him, has many faults, but setting up a cartridge with wrong VTA isn't one of them. I didn't look closely but I would trust him as competent on those sort of things. I don't like his system, and especially listening room, which is a portacabin at the factory. We were platter comparing not cartridge auditioning. I found the Denon slightly gritty in the treble. Gritty is the wrong word to use with slightly. Just that faint edge. It doubtless had many fine moving coil qualities and is a good option depending on your priorities at that price. To the extent I was comparing, it was with not just the Goldring 1042, but both MM and MC technics, and the Sony XL55. It wasn't horrible. It justn't wasnt doing anything special enough to merit further investigation should I not sort out Nirvana with the Technics.
Next port of call will probably by the Zyx - hence the conflict with the Staffordshire knees up, since if I buy one I'd like to do so from Paul, and he has them for audition. I have some reservations, but you can't beat an audition. I might pinch the Denon off Arthur for a listen in my own system now we are into the calm period, but I'd really like to prize his Dynavector off him, and he is behaving like a virgin at a prom with padlocked knees on that one. I am also waiting on a Jico stylus for the U205 - due for despatch 4th February from the land of the rising sun, and I ain't doin nuffin till I've heard that.
Oh - and my Pip 2 has been mended. February might be fun :)
Yes, you have a point Marco and no offense meant to Geoff, apologies if it came accords as rude.
However, some people like that 'super-clean', 'highly-polished', rather 'hi-fi' sort of sound, and consider it as 'accurate'. Count me out, as I consider it simply as coloration (an inherent and distinctive 'sonic signature'), in the same way as some may find the 103 'blowsy' or 'euphonic'. 'Driving a bass line' (as you describe) is something that the 103 does exceptionally well, and which is highly addictive with beat-driven music. It's what gies it its fun factor!
Its a presentation I used to seek out and enjoy but perhaps my taste has changed, I much prefer the 103 presentation, well the tweaked R I use, I don't think I could live with a standard 103 though.
Indeed. However, it shows that the problem is not with the 103 (the intrinsic design of the cartridge itself), but rather with the cheap plastic shell it's clad in (which is where the cost-cutting has gone and why it sells for the price it does)! :exactly:
That overtly 'hi-fi' style of presentation has never been to my liking, as I simply don't consider it as realistic. Consequently, my systems have always been voiced to excel in the midrange and lower frequencies, as well as being 'none too shabby' elsewhere ;)
Anaemic, 'squeaky clean' sounding systems (or components), for me, are an abhorrence.
Marco.
Marco - I would love to come to the June knees-up, and intend to. The road to hell however, is paved with good intentions, I tend to have a lot on, its a long way, my daughter will have finished college, and if I were travelling all that distance to play with HiFi I'd have visiting Paul at Reffc to listen to the Zyx as a high priority. However, Martin is one of the good guys, and it would be good to meet him (I suspect Al's Essex girl fiesta's may be a long haul for him) so I have the good intention, and will be interested to hear the Denon "done proper".
No problem, Richard. I accept that, and if you can make it, it would be good to meet you :)
Arthur, bless him, has many faults, but setting up a cartridge with wrong VTA isn't one of them. I didn't look closely but I would trust him as competent on those sort of things.
Lol - I'm sure that he is perfectly competent (usually), but I can say for a fact (based on considerable experience of using both a Technics T/T, with its stock arm and a DL-103) that it is physically impossible to achieve correct VTA with that particular combination.
Winding the arm down to the minimum, so that it's as low as it can go, still leaves optimal VTA out by at least 1.5mm, which ruins the sound. The only way to compensate for the shortfall is to use an extra-thick mat or a headshell 'spacer'. Trust me, (from the pain of failure) I know! However, I guess it depends on how fussy you are with these things. For my sins, I'm super-anal, when it comes to setting up cartridges ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
01-02-2014, 10:25
OK now I know where you are coming from. I've lived with a MC 25FL for many many years and mellifluous it is not. It is bright detailed and at times harsh and strident. It does not drive a bass line and has the presentation of a HiFi dem at a dealer, impressive on a short demo but ultimately unsatisfying over a long acquaintance. ;)
As has been suggested, it's all down to combinations of components. In my system the MC25FL sounds absolutely sweet and gorgeous, with an almost 3D presentation, not bright, strident or harsh at all . The ZYX R50 Bloom H is in many ways similar, but presents these characteristics possibly even more so and has a bigger sound in a Koetsu sort of way.
The R100 H2 is totally different, it's without doubt the most revealing and detailed cartridge I've used and has a seemingly totally uncoloured presentation. I sent it to Dominic at NWA for a check over recently and he'd not used one before, he also thought it sounded superb. I was a regular Decca (and Technics EPC-305MC) user, but the ZYXs take things a step further.
If the Ortofon didn't sound right in a particular system, then it just wasn't suited to that application.
Any thoughts on this, Geoff?
However, given that Geoff is a big Tannoy fan, I'm surprised that he doesn't like the intrinsic 'DL-103 sound', as it (along with the SPU), in that respect, are the 'vintage Tannoys' of the cartridge world, and when synergistically partnered, exhibit the very musical characteristics he treasures over the often 'spot-lit' presentation of modern speakers.
Perhaps he just hasn't heard the DL-103 in the way that you or I have described?
:)
Marco.
walpurgis
01-02-2014, 11:20
Any thoughts on this, Geoff?
:)
Marco.
Well I've not heard a modified DL-103 Marco, so my often stated impressions are of standard 103s and 103Rs and I used to have a light coloured version years ago which I can't recall the model of.
As for "spotlit presentation", well Tannoys certainly put you in the spotlight, you feel as though you are hearing right into the recording with a good pair. But I know what you mean in relation to 'modern speakers' (moving coil ones at least). There's a certain 'matter of factness' about the voicing. There again, there are modern, very revealing speakers that just always sound gorgeous, Sonus Faber spring to mind.
In case anybody thinks I have a system with a 'rose tinted' sound, nothing could be further from the truth. It is extremely revealing and very, very transparent.
Clive197
01-02-2014, 11:41
I have to say that I agree with Walpurgis regarding the Ortofon MC25FL. When I owned and ran one for a number of years back in the mid 70's I always thought it gave a wonderful presentation in my SME arm on a Thorens TD 160 and then into a Armstrong receiver and on to a pair of Celef Monitors. I cannot understand how NRG found it "harsh and strident" at times unless it was not set up accurately or in a system that in combination had that effect.
Clive
kininigin
01-02-2014, 11:55
The 103 also has a beautifully textured and 'valve-like' midrange, which makes instruments, such as trumpets and sax, sound scarily real. Most of all, however, tonally, it is 'big-boned', and so underpins music with realistic weight and scale, which is largely absent in today's 'bleached-out', lightweight sounding (in comparison), 'squeaky-clean' and 'treble-emphasised' moving-coil cartridge designs.
Like I said, much depends on the area of the audio spectrum your ears tune into most, so if you're a 'squeaky-clean detail freak', attracted more to super-clean treble, than genuine deep bass, a DL-103 is never going to be your thing, much the same as if your sonic proclivities lean more towards a rhythmically adroit, beautifully mellifluous, bass-driven sound (count me in), an OC-9 or Lyra is not likely ever to grace your tonearm.
Marco.
Your description of the 103,is exactly the type of sound i am aiming for and have largely achieved that with the Shure SC35C.I've never tried an MC cart,so the 103 sounds like an ideal place for me to start if i was to go down that route for not silly money! Most of the music i listen to is beat driven,so as you say anything that is 'bleached out and lightweight sounding',when playing this type of music,really grates me!
walpurgis
01-02-2014, 12:08
Your description of the 103,is exactly the type of sound i am aiming for and have largely achieved that with the Shure SC35C.I've never tried an MC cart,so the 103 sounds like an ideal place for me to start if i was to go down that route for not silly money! Most of the music i listen to is beat driven,so as you say anything that is 'bleached out and lightweight sounding',when playing this type of music,really grates me!
I'd guess the sound of a DL-103 would come as a bit of a shock after the Shure SC365C. It's a proper MC and very different sounding to say the least. I'm certain you'd like it, as long as you have a phono section to do it justice. But, I will say that if you want a massive soundstage and an enormously open midrange that lets you almost reach out and touch the music, pay a bit more and get the ZYX R50 H. Just my opinion mind you, but I have used both.
kininigin
01-02-2014, 12:22
I'd guess the sound of a DL-103 would come as a bit of a shock after the Shure SC365C. It's a proper MC and very different sounding to say the least. I'm certain you'd like it, as long as you have a phono section to do it justice. But, I will say that if you want a massive soundstage and an enormously open midrange that lets you almost reach out and touch the music, pay a bit more and get the ZYX R50 H. Just my opinion mind you, but I have used both.
Well the SC35C is an original from the US and not a 'modern' made one from Mexico.It is vastly different and far superior! I have no idea how it would stack up against a 103 or any other MC for that matter! I'm using a croft basic atm,but am in the process of getting the Micro 25 and then upgrading possibly to the 'R' version,so should be ok on that front.Never heard of the ZYX,sounds interesting.How much are we talking with that?
Think they're about £500 or so, seen one of the dealers advertising them for sale recently but that might have been a different model.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30221-Zyx-R50(H)-Bloom
http://www.needledoctor.com/ZYX-R-50-Bloom-H-Phono-Cartridge
Oldpinkman
01-02-2014, 16:19
I'd guess the sound of a DL-103 would come as a bit of a shock after the Shure SC365C. It's a proper MC and very different sounding to say the least. I'm certain you'd like it, as long as you have a phono section to do it justice. But, I will say that if you want a massive soundstage and an enormously open midrange that lets you almost reach out and touch the music, pay a bit more and get the ZYX R50 H. Just my opinion mind you, but I have used both.
You're just reinforcing my interest in this Zyx. Especially since you use an arm I know extremely well, and have used the Technics MC. One of the reasons I was interested to hear the Denon was that it gave me a reference that others on the forum knew. Its for the same reason I'd like to ponce the Dynavector off Arthur. Very few know the U205, Sony 55 or other cartridges I know. But I guess I'm hoping the Jico stylus will be all it promises
Well, I'm in Geoff's camp here and I do like some Tannoys ;). I'm no real big fan of the 103 and in many ways, despite being good in some systems (as it can be), the stylus profile and design can never be up to the detail retrieval or tracking accuracy of an elliptical stylus or better still, a line contact design. I was a big fan of Dynavector and Shelter cartridges until I heard a Zyx (some while back now) and since replacing my Shelter 5000 with a far more modest Z50H bloom, I have to agree with Geoff. Big detailed soundstange, loads of authority in the bass and it sacrifices nothing to the 103 in the midrange at all. It's more neutral to my ears too and unlike some MC carts which can make your ears bleed in the HF or are simply over-analytical, not so the Zyx.
Oldpinkman
01-02-2014, 19:23
Well, I'm in Geoff's camp here and I do like some Tannoys ;). I'm no real big fan of the 103 and in many ways, despite being good in some systems (as it can be), the stylus profile and design can never be up to the detail retrieval or tracking accuracy of an elliptical stylus or better still, a line contact design. I was a big fan of Dynavector and Shelter cartridges until I heard a Zyx (some while back now) and since replacing my Shelter 5000 with a far more modest Z50H bloom, I have to agree with Geoff. Big detailed soundstange, loads of authority in the bass and it sacrifices nothing to the 103 in the midrange at all. It's more neutral to my ears too and unlike some MC carts which can make your ears bleed in the HF or are simply over-analytical, not so the Zyx.
I think there's a decent chance we'll have a cup of tea together some time this year. I have just manned up and faced the truth about the U205. (To be fair I was being mature and sensible ignoring it through January, after I developped suspicions at Christmas, but in addition to replacing the mirror on a bathroom door cabinet where I wasn't mature and sensible and changed the bloody hinges in January, inevitably dropping it and breaking the mirror, i have tackled the "iffy" technics)
Fitted the old faithfull 1042 and confirmed that, whilst the U205 does wonderful things, and was effectively NOS, it is clearly tired. It actually sags as it plays - I have a component that burns out! The Jico's have a great reputation, and could be with me in a fortnight, but this one is passed its best. I'm going to enjoy a few LP's on the 1042, which I think is exceptional for the money anyway, but just seems to work SOOO well in the FXR, and then maybe have another go with the Technics MC before my Jico gets here. The MC had some truly wonderful qualities, but was just missing on something I can't quite put my finger on. I may yet head west at half term and see Rachel in her last year. She is about 20 minutes from you Paul ;)
...... the stylus profile and design can never be up to the detail retrieval or tracking accuracy of an elliptical stylus or better still, a line contact design.....
Yeah, we've heard this all before, to some extent it can be true to a very small degree depending on what you like to listen to but the 103 makes up for it in spades in other areas. For the music I listen to a fine line profile makes little difference when the body and soul of the presentation is missing, fine detail retrieval becomes a secondary or even lesser importance. Oh and BTW there where/are different versions of the 103 available with better profiles like the D....
My memory of the 25FL may be lacking and a bit hazy but I recall after bending the cantilever on my last one and switching to a 103 as a substitute I was taken aback how much better the presentation was to my ears. I still use a Kontra B on my SP10/309 and it's a wonderful combination for different reasons, my opinion of the 25 FL hasn't changed ;)
I think there's a decent chance we'll have a cup of tea together some time this year. I have just manned up and faced the truth about the U205. (To be fair I was being mature and sensible ignoring it through January, after I developped suspicions at Christmas, but in addition to replacing the mirror on a bathroom door cabinet where I wasn't mature and sensible and changed the bloody hinges in January, inevitably dropping it and breaking the mirror, i have tackled the "iffy" technics)
Fitted the old faithfull 1042 and confirmed that, whilst the U205 does wonderful things, and was effectively NOS, it is clearly tired. It actually sags as it plays - I have a component that burns out! The Jico's have a great reputation, and could be with me in a fortnight, but this one is passed its best. I'm going to enjoy a few LP's on the 1042, which I think is exceptional for the money anyway, but just seems to work SOOO well in the FXR, and then maybe have another go with the Technics MC before my Jico gets here. The MC had some truly wonderful qualities, but was just missing on something I can't quite put my finger on. I may yet head west at half term and see Rachel in her last year. She is about 20 minutes from you Paul ;)
You'd be welcome to pop in and have a listen Richard. I like the 1042. It really has remained a stalwart classic amongst MM cartridges for reasonable money, although the prices have crept up a fair bit in recent years. The latest models use a very fine stylus indeed in the Gyger-S Line contact stylus too.
kininigin
02-02-2014, 16:00
Think they're about £500 or so, seen one of the dealers advertising them for sale recently but that might have been a different model.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30221-Zyx-R50(H)-Bloom
http://www.needledoctor.com/ZYX-R-50-Bloom-H-Phono-Cartridge
That's a fair bit more than an 103!! Need to sort the rest of my TT first anyway,so the cart will be a last consideration if i do opt to go for a MC cart!
That's a fair bit more than an 103!! Need to sort the rest of my TT first anyway,so the cart will be a last consideration if i do opt to go for a MC cart!
There's two 103s on PFM, one brand new at £150 and one used (ten sides) at £130.
Quite tempted myself!
kininigin
02-02-2014, 21:46
Hmmn yeah tempting,think i'll wait though and get the rest of the TT up to scratch first!
walpurgis
02-02-2014, 21:59
You could always try Martyn's DL-110, to give you a taste of the MC thing. It's high output, so it'd work with your MM input. They actually work quite well in the Techie arm.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30611-Denon-DL-110-MC-cartridge&p=522928#post522928
kininigin
02-02-2014, 22:16
You could always try Martyn's DL-110, to give you a taste of the MC thing. It's high output, so it'd work with your MM input. They actually work quite well in the Techie arm.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30611-Denon-DL-110-MC-cartridge&p=522928#post522928
Looks interesting,if it's still available next week,i may go for it! If only just to compare to the SC35C and see where it stands in the pecking order! I have very little experience with different carts,so i'm finding it difficult to know where to start looking to try and improve on the SC35C! No idea what to compare it with!
walpurgis
02-02-2014, 22:32
Looks interesting,if it's still available next week,i may go for it! If only just to compare to the SC35C and see where it stands in the pecking order! I have very little experience with different carts,so i'm finding it difficult to know where to start looking to try and improve on the SC35C! No idea what to compare it with!
Well it's a new one and DL-110s are popular, so if you found it was not to your liking you'd have no trouble selling it on for about the same money.
I had a DL-110 but can't remember if I used it in the Techy stock arm, think I did though, good cart IMO but the SAE 1000LT that I'm using now is much better in every way.
I would love to try a really good MM cart though, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for something decent at a good price.
BTW, re the Denon 103, Marco said (in this thread) that they are not good with the stock Technics arm down to the VTA adjustment not be able to go low enough on the arm for the cart.
walpurgis
03-02-2014, 16:53
ZYX R50 Bloom (low output) just listed on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321313540853&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160
Ali Tait
03-02-2014, 17:51
I had a DL-110 but can't remember if I used it in the Techy stock arm, think I did though, good cart IMO but the SAE 1000LT that I'm using now is much better in every way.
I would love to try a really good MM cart though, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for something decent at a good price.
BTW, re the Denon 103, Marco said (in this thread) that they are not good with the stock Technics arm down to the VTA adjustment not be able to go low enough on the arm for the cart.
Try one of these, they are really good IMHO. In some ways it betters my 103r.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TESTINA-ACUTEX-M-312-III-STR-PUNTINA-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-NUOVA-/261373387171?pt=Altro_Audio_da_Casa&hash=item3cdb1161a3
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.