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Stresss42
27-01-2014, 20:05
Hi all,

I need some advice please on how to finish high quality ply to ( as near as poss ) high gloss piano black ?

Do-able? Planning a Pencil 70.3 speaker build and want them to look absolutely stunning when finished.

Will of course post pictures when I start the cabinets. All the best, Steve.

Nb..I email'd a well known spray paint manufacturer and they just said " Use gloss black paint - that'll do. "

Superb. :brickwall::steam:

brian2957
27-01-2014, 20:13
There will probable be plenty of car body shops around you who can do the spray job for you Steve. Take a lot of preparation though :)

loo
27-01-2014, 20:24
the best way I have found when using ply is to start by coating with epoxy wood filler then sand till as smooth as a babys backside then spray with primer then sand smooth again then spray with satin black then very fine wet and dry sand then start with the coats of clear lacquer with plenty of drying time between coats and keep it dust free ,and go for at least 3 coats of lacquer
good luck
Paul

The Grand Wazoo
27-01-2014, 20:31
Blackboard paint sanded back hard also makes a good base coat. After that it's coat after coat after coat and don't be shy with the ever finer sandpaper!
A dust free paintwork area is vital.

Stresss42
27-01-2014, 22:08
Thanks very much to all. The epoxy wood filler makes sense - even with the best quality ply the surface will be uneven with the veneer. Will email some sellers now for some info / costs.

Blackboard paint also makes sense as a matt black base colour.

Lastly, Grand Wazoo...." CD: Accuphase DP-67 " - I feel quite sick with envy. Thanks again. Will update / load up some build pictures asap. Best regards.

The Grand Wazoo
27-01-2014, 22:15
We're all looking forward to seeing a perfect reflection of you taking a picture of your finished speakers!!

loo
27-01-2014, 22:18
yep cant wait to see the results, as Chris said dust is the enemy also overspray
and make sure your workspace is well vented
cheers paul

Stresss42
27-01-2014, 22:41
We're all looking forward to seeing a perfect reflection of you taking a picture of your finished speakers!!

You'll think I've cheated and glued glass to the panels !!! £100.00 worth of Lacquer later......

loo
27-01-2014, 22:46
:rfl::rfl:

Stresss42
28-01-2014, 12:42
You'll think I've cheated and glued glass to the panels !!! £100.00 worth of Lacquer later......

( This was a joke )...In actual fact they'll probably end up looking like wonkie - leaning - dull chalk boards !!!!

take5
28-01-2014, 14:02
Very interesting.

I am having a plinth made for my Thorens 124, and have had a quote of £100 from my local car body repair shop to spray it gloss piano black.

Do you guys feel that this job can be done by a novice. ie Me.

When you talk of spraying, are you talking about a can from Halfords or similar?

Stresss42
28-01-2014, 14:43
Very interesting.

I am having a plinth made for my Thorens 124, and have had a quote of £100 from my local car body repair shop to spray it gloss piano black.

Do you guys feel that this job can be done by a novice. ie Me.

When you talk of spraying, are you talking about a can from Halfords or similar?

Brian, I have these under my B & W Speaker stands / EB Acoustics EB1 :

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/8423689.htm

Solid granite - bloody heavy. £8.00 each - make sure they're big enough for your Thorens Deck then Isolate with Sorbothane pads underneath.

Reffc
28-01-2014, 14:46
Very interesting.

I am having a plinth made for my Thorens 124, and have had a quote of £100 from my local car body repair shop to spray it gloss piano black.

Do you guys feel that this job can be done by a novice. ie Me.

When you talk of spraying, are you talking about a can from Halfords or similar?

Not really recommended Brian. You'll never get the same standard of finish needed from a spray can, although I've seen reasonable results, inevitably what happens is the odd uneven spray pattern and splodges form especially as the nozzle starts clogging and the can starts running low on air pressure. However in your case, a TT plinth is limited in panel sizes to be sprayed so it could be worth a try. You can buy the paint in most DIY stores these days (blackboard paint plus gloss lacquer). You'll need loads of lacquer coats, perhaps 6 to 10 coats, lightly sanded between each coat and built up. I did the Fidelio speakers with an inexpensive compressor powered air sprayer and water based lacquer (4 coats over the veneer)and that did a great job. You can even buy the whole compressor kits these days for reasonable cash but still probably cheaper asking your local car body repair shop and most do a decent job.

take5
28-01-2014, 15:14
Steve, my fault for not being clearer. I didnt just mean something for it to sit on.
Its the whole box, for it to sit IN.
Thanks for the link though, useful too.

Paul, thanks for your advice. Great.
I think given the amount of time involved for me,( 6-10 coats plus sanding !! ) the cost of materials and the strong chance that I wont do a good job, the local car repair guy is looking more attractive. Thanks

walpurgis
28-01-2014, 16:53
You can use aerosol black acrylic to give the colour, then top coat with several layers of hand brushed yacht varnish, each coat sanded back flat once dry, last coat flatted and then polished (takes ages). That does produce a 'piano' type finish. Takes a lot of time and patience though.

Z-A
28-01-2014, 17:47
Steve,

In truth, a high gloss finish is not easy for the amateur to achieve, mostly due to the softness of finishes available to the public. They are not really up to the standard of an acrylic PU colour over a black polyester basecoat, which is industry standard, (or straight polyester, but this has fading issues). To use the finishes just mentioned, a pro set up is required due to harmful solvents etc. (Isocyanate). You would require 8-10 coats (isolator/basecoat/topcoat) with a Pro level gun (Sata/deVilbiss etc) to get enough build, then leave to harden for a week before full flat and compounding. It is an involved job and well worth the effort if the results are top notch, but can look less than stellar if any stages are missed or shortcut.

I don't have any contacts in Cardiff that can do this for you, Bristol being the nearest if you prefer to get it done by others. Beware though, it is not a cheap finish if done properly. (FYI - I have been producing high gloss finishes for 15 years with my main business as furniture designer maker, and learnt the hard way..!)

Ps, car repairers may not necessarily be up to the job either as the finishes they have to use now are not as suitable, to get the deep piano lustre car paints are too thin. Try and get a sample though, you may find a good one..

awkwardbydesign
28-01-2014, 19:00
We're all looking forward to seeing a perfect reflection of you taking a picture of your finished speakers!!
Clothes on, please.

Stresss42
28-01-2014, 19:46
Clothes on, please.

Clothes on but my hair permanently spiked up with bloody Lacquer !!

Stresss42
28-01-2014, 20:58
Steve,

In truth, a high gloss finish is not easy for the amateur to achieve, mostly due to the softness of finishes available to the public. They are not really up to the standard of an acrylic PU colour over a black polyester basecoat, which is industry standard, (or straight polyester, but this has fading issues). To use the finishes just mentioned, a pro set up is required due to harmful solvents etc. (Isocyanate). You would require 8-10 coats (isolator/basecoat/topcoat) with a Pro level gun (Sata/deVilbiss etc) to get enough build, then leave to harden for a week before full flat and compounding. It is an involved job and well worth the effort if the results are top notch, but can look less than stellar if any stages are missed or shortcut.

I don't have any contacts in Cardiff that can do this for you, Bristol being the nearest if you prefer to get it done by others. Beware though, it is not a cheap finish if done properly. (FYI - I have been producing high gloss finishes for 15 years with my main business as furniture designer maker, and learnt the hard way..!)

Ps, car repairers may not necessarily be up to the job either as the finishes they have to use now are not as suitable, to get the deep piano lustre car paints are too thin. Try and get a sample though, you may find a good one..

Thanks very much for the Info Paul. This is why I'm at the planning and research stage at the moment regarding the final finish of the cabinets.
I'm confident with the build, but I have to get the finish absolutely spot on. Will update on how I'm getting on.

Thanks again, appreciate your advice. Steve.

Bourneendboy
29-01-2014, 22:07
Polyester is the best possible finish, but very expensive. Any chance you are near Southend? I can point you in the right direction.

Stresss42
30-01-2014, 18:28
Alright Bill, no mate I live in Cardiff ( but I'm from London...confused ? )... gonna go along the route of using a good quality filler over the finished cabinets then sanding down.

( P38 )....U-POL P38 600ml Body Filler Tin - looks good for easy sanding down then priming. Been in touch with a company on ebay as well that supply fillers that dry to an ultra
smooth finish as used on yachts etc. All the best. Steve.

Anyone used this before....
http://www.amazon.co.uk/U-POL-P38-600ml-Body-Filler/dp/B002HMXSXK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1391106258&sr=8-2&keywords=P38

Bourneendboy
30-01-2014, 22:53
Steve, you have 2 hurdles to get over before you start to paint and once you have finished a nasty one that may bight you on the arse!
Ply is not a good material to paint, firstly you need to fill the grain, best to do this with a primer. Luckily, Birch ply has a very close grain, so you should fill it with around 4 coats. You only want 2 top coats of coloured paint, don't move on to this until the finish is perfect! The biggest problem are the edges, however many coats you apply, the layers are are likely to show through. The bite on the arse comes in a few months time when the layers will 'telegraph' through the paint!
If you want a painted finish, you really need an MDF cabinet.
I personally wouldn't go down the filler route, a whole host of potential problems ahead of you.
I'm speaking as a professional cabinet maker, your expectations may be very different to mine, but I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Bill

loo
30-01-2014, 23:32
Hi Steve. just to give you an idea of what a filler and spray can finish looks like here's a picture of a plinth I did using the method I described earlier .I am no cabinet maker and its not of that standard but everybody that's seen it seemed pretty impressed. Sorry about the picture quality its an iphone pic
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s612/loonieboo1/5BB4F5D2-39BE-4DD2-A344-F2397B86513D-592-000000782E6C7F1B_zps23561d7b.jpg (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/loonieboo1/media/5BB4F5D2-39BE-4DD2-A344-F2397B86513D-592-000000782E6C7F1B_zps23561d7b.jpg.html)
cheers Paul

walpurgis
30-01-2014, 23:44
Steve, you have 2 hurdles to get over before you start to paint and once you have finished a nasty one that may bight you on the arse!
Ply is not a good material to paint, firstly you need to fill the grain, best to do this with a primer. Luckily, Birch ply has a very close grain, so you should fill it with around 4 coats. You only want 2 top coats of coloured paint, don't move on to this until the finish is perfect! The biggest problem are the edges, however many coats you apply, the layers are are likely to show through. The bite on the arse comes in a few months time when the layers will 'telegraph' through the paint!
If you want a painted finish, you really need an MDF cabinet.
I personally wouldn't go down the filler route, a whole host of potential problems ahead of you.
I'm speaking as a professional cabinet maker, your expectations may be very different to mine, but I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Bill

Yes good advice, I agree with all that.

MDF is easier to work with in any case and less likely to 'ring' (resonate) than ply. Should you have any joints or seams to hide, use epoxy car body filler as it is impervious to moisture, does not shrink and accepts paint well, just use it as sparingly as possible otherwise you'll be doing a lot of rubbing down. If you use MDF, seal all cut ends, as they are very absorbant and you'll have problems getting a good paint finish otherwise. I use wood hardener for this, works a treat.

Bourneendboy
31-01-2014, 08:39
Steve, unless you are looking for a project, the commercial rate for furniture spray finishing is around £25.00 a square mtr. They will use a high fill primer and an a/c top coat. This sq mtr price includes the paint, they will want to charge you for 5lts of paint if not a stock colour.
I'm not in a position to offer my services to you as I'm too far away, but I would have charged you £45 to paint black/white/grey.

Kember
31-01-2014, 08:57
Steve, you have 2 hurdles to get over before you start to paint and once you have finished a nasty one that may bight you on the arse!
Ply is not a good material to paint, firstly you need to fill the grain, best to do this with a primer. Luckily, Birch ply has a very close grain, so you should fill it with around 4 coats. You only want 2 top coats of coloured paint, don't move on to this until the finish is perfect! The biggest problem are the edges, however many coats you apply, the layers are are likely to show through. The bite on the arse comes in a few months time when the layers will 'telegraph' through the paint!
If you want a painted finish, you really need an MDF cabinet.
I personally wouldn't go down the filler route, a whole host of potential problems ahead of you.
I'm speaking as a professional cabinet maker, your expectations may be very different to mine, but I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Bill

Bill,

This is very helpful. Thank you.

I have some large cabinets for Bastani type speakers made in Maple ply and was considering having them spray painted, to make them blend into the room better. It sounds like staining/varnishing or veneering may be a better route.

Alternatively, presumably I could cover the edges and chamfers with masking tape and paint only the surfaces, leaving the edges visible as a contrast? Is this technically feasible, leaving the aesthetics aside :stalks:?!

Best

Peter

Bourneendboy
31-01-2014, 10:10
Peter,

You're not from Rugby by any chance are you?

If I was looking to finish these speakers in black, I would go the painted way, my advice above is for new, with no existing finish.
Firstly, wipe over with white spirit to remove any grime or existing wax/silicon polish you may have used when dusting over the years. Then cut back with 240 grit silicon carbide paper, don't use anything finer, it's not required and paint doesn't like sticking to too finer surface. Then take them to your local furniture polishing workshop and ask them to paint black using a/c lacquer. I would go for a satin finish (10%), they will know exactly what you mean. Bear in mind the final quality will very much depend on your preparation, don't expect the polisher to do any kind of prep for you, he will just spray them!

If you can get the speakers out to Aylesbury or High Wycombe, there are a couple of chaps I could recommend.
If you have a few quid to spend and you want high gloss, talk to Jerome at LJR Polyester in Basildon. He is a master in high gloss!!!

Cheers,

Bill.

Kember
31-01-2014, 11:50
Peter,

You're not from Rugby by any chance are you?

If I was looking to finish these speakers in black, I would go the painted way, my advice above is for new, with no existing finish.
Firstly, wipe over with white spirit to remove any grime or existing wax/silicon polish you may have used when dusting over the years. Then cut back with 240 grit silicon carbide paper, don't use anything finer, it's not required and paint doesn't like sticking to too finer surface. Then take them to your local furniture polishing workshop and ask them to paint black using a/c lacquer. I would go for a satin finish (10%), they will know exactly what you mean. Bear in mind the final quality will very much depend on your preparation, don't expect the polisher to do any kind of prep for you, he will just spray them!

If you can get the speakers out to Aylesbury or High Wycombe, there are a couple of chaps I could recommend.
If you have a few quid to spend and you want high gloss, talk to Jerome at LJR Polyester in Basildon. He is a master in high gloss!!!

Cheers,

Bill.

Bill

No, not Rugby, London just down the A41 from you.

Thanks for your advice. Actually, I was looking for RAL 9002 - gray white. But I guess, just as unforgiving of poor prep.

I will follow up on the high gloss look. Basildon is easily reachable and I can put Ian Dury on the car stereo on the way to acclimatise me :lol:. I have a friend in Burnham on Crouch, so I can make a day of it and eat the local seafood as well.

Best

Peter

YNWaN
31-01-2014, 14:59
Steve, you have 2 hurdles to get over before you start to paint and once you have finished a nasty one that may bight you on the arse!
Ply is not a good material to paint, firstly you need to fill the grain, best to do this with a primer. Luckily, Birch ply has a very close grain, so you should fill it with around 4 coats. You only want 2 top coats of coloured paint, don't move on to this until the finish is perfect! The biggest problem are the edges, however many coats you apply, the layers are are likely to show through. The bite on the arse comes in a few months time when the layers will 'telegraph' through the paint!
If you want a painted finish, you really need an MDF cabinet.
I personally wouldn't go down the filler route, a whole host of potential problems ahead of you.
I'm speaking as a professional cabinet maker, your expectations may be very different to mine, but I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Bill

OK, I'm not a cabinet maker but I have built a lot of one-off projects and prototypes. The issues Bill has highlighted exactly parallel my thought and experience with doing similar. If I really had to paint it I would seriously consider cladding the entire thing in 6mm MDF first, with mitred corners. When I wanted a similar finish on my Yamaha NS-1000Ms I chose to finish them in a high gloss melamine laminate - largely because of the reasons Bill gives above.

DSJR
31-01-2014, 16:54
A VERY silly aside, but PLEASE be aware that you'll be polishing the blessed things for all eternity once finished. 'Piano Black Lacquer' finish attracts dust like you wouldn't believe and all your 'friends' who visit will place their greasy palms on the cabs expressing delight at how lovely they look - been there and done that with some black lacquer ATC 100A's which despite their unsuitability for low-level listening, gave me so much fun and enjoyment when I owned them twenty! years ago now...

synsei
31-01-2014, 17:07
A VERY silly aside, but PLEASE be aware that you'll be polishing the blessed things for all eternity once finished. 'Piano Black Lacquer' finish attracts dust like you wouldn't believe and all your 'friends' who visit will place their greasy palms on the cabs expressing delight at how lovely they look - been there and done that with some black lacquer ATC 100A's which despite their unsuitability for low-level listening, gave me so much fun and enjoyment when I owned them twenty! years ago now...

I'd second that. Piano Black looks lovely until one touches it, then begins the eternal task of smearing those prints all over the finish in a vain attempt to return the item to its original look. What one eventually ends up with is a dulled surface punctuated by a myriad of tiny swirl patterns. Gorgeous in theory, a nightmare in practice...

Stresss42
31-01-2014, 19:49
Steve, you have 2 hurdles to get over before you start to paint and once you have finished a nasty one that may bight you on the arse!
Ply is not a good material to paint, firstly you need to fill the grain, best to do this with a primer. Luckily, Birch ply has a very close grain, so you should fill it with around 4 coats. You only want 2 top coats of coloured paint, don't move on to this until the finish is perfect! The biggest problem are the edges, however many coats you apply, the layers are are likely to show through. The bite on the arse comes in a few months time when the layers will 'telegraph' through the paint!
If you want a painted finish, you really need an MDF cabinet.
I personally wouldn't go down the filler route, a whole host of potential problems ahead of you.
I'm speaking as a professional cabinet maker, your expectations may be very different to mine, but I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Bill

Hello Bill thanks for that mate. What problems would the filler route produce - could the paint possibly react with it - or could it dry quite soft and be prone to caving in when moving
the speakers about. Alot to think about - I have the 18mm Ply now so mdf out of the question I'm afraid.
Trust me I'll read your post a good few times - very good advice thank you mate. All the best, Steve.

Bourneendboy
01-02-2014, 10:20
Steve,

Firstly, P38 (there are many names for this two part filler), is the correct filler to use when painting over. The trouble is that it is very hard, meaning it's difficult to sand back without the correct equipment. Of course, you can use a cork block and some 120/180 grit paper, but you have a nasty task ahead of you. It doesn't help that the ply has a relatively soft face. You would need to do the edges as well, if you are not very careful, the nice square faces of the edges will become slightly 'rounded' with all that sanding.

So, hopefully I have put you off any filling!
You have two options, either stain the cabinets black and then finish in clear or pint black as previously mentioned. Either way, I would veneer the edges to cover the ply. Iron on Maple veneer has a similar grain to Birch. Staining will not fill the grain, so will give that 'black Ash' effect, you would need two coats of stain to get the depth of colour. Make sure it is compatible with the clear lacquer, otherwise it will react!
Don't forget, if you want a painted finish, you will need to prime to fill the grain.
As said previously, I would be looking for a perfect finish, your expectations may be lower.
I'd go the stained and clear lacquer way, if it doesn't come up to expectations, spray black. Make sure all finishes are compatible!

Good luck!
Bill

walpurgis
01-02-2014, 10:40
If you use a two part epoxy type filler, try just the very thinnest smear across surfaces. It takes very little filler to achieve a sealed surface and a thin coat is easier to keep smooth and level. Less sanding too obviously.

Naughty Nigel
09-03-2014, 21:55
Sorry to come to this thread so late, but for a real Piano Black finish you will need to use a polyester gel coat, (as used on the outside of GRP boats).

This is applied thickly by brush, covered with polythene or cling film so it cures, and once hard is sanded with increasingly fine grades of we-or-dry paper so that it is perfectly smooth, and then polished to a high gloss. You will probably start of with 600 grit, and work towards 2000 grit before polishing. (A lot of 1960's furniture was finished in this way, before the 'lean and hungry' look became popular in the 1970's - manly because it was much, much cheaper to produce!)

If done properly the polyester coating is very tough, but be warned, gelcoats are extremely brittle, and will crack or craze if stressed or bent.

Nigel.

YNWaN
09-03-2014, 22:29
I notice that two of the piano black finish speakers that were on show at Scalford were actually finished in the same kind of laminate I used to finish my Yamaha's.

Stresss42
14-03-2014, 19:39
Sorry to come to this thread so late, but for a real Piano Black finish you will need to use a polyester gel coat, (as used on the outside of GRP boats).

This is applied thickly by brush, covered with polythene or cling film so it cures, and once hard is sanded with increasingly fine grades of we-or-dry paper so that it is perfectly smooth, and then polished to a high gloss. You will probably start of with 600 grit, and work towards 2000 grit before polishing. (A lot of 1960's furniture was finished in this way, before the 'lean and hungry' look became popular in the 1970's - manly because it was much, much cheaper to produce!)

If done properly the polyester coating is very tough, but be warned, gelcoats are extremely brittle, and will crack or craze if stressed or bent.

Nigel.

Thanks very much Nigel I'll have a look at that, they're nearly finished now - taken me an absolute eternity. ( I'm no carpenter but an absolute perfectionist ! ).

Will post some pictures when they're done / sprayed and lacquered up. No point posting half a job !! All the very best to all. Steve.

Qwin
15-03-2014, 12:56
Use a black liminate.

Paint on ply is a no no.

You sand seal the ply, build a flat surface with primer filler add 10 coats of gloss black rubbed down after every second coat and the end result is wonderful - for a while. Wood expands and contracts at different rates depending even on grain direction. Every glued joint line and end grain on the ply will eventually show through. I speak from experience. MDF is great unless you glue two bits together, the joint will show, maybe not in a week but look at it 6 months later.

You can try a high build using two- pack that forms a hard thick skin say 1mm thick and this will last a good while but takes a lot of effort and you need the equipment to deal with it as the fumes when spraying are leathal. The Gel coat idea is similar thinking and may be easier to persue but will need a lot of rubbing down and pollishing.

Remember a car body is made of stable materials like metal and plastic and joints between bolt on panels usually have gaps to hide expansion problems.

struth
16-03-2014, 10:43
Its a very difficult thing to achieve....dust is the enemy.as is the applicator...if you can get some heat on to it as it dries it can help even it out

Gordon Steadman
16-03-2014, 11:12
I have to agree with all the "its not that easy" comments, especially about the long term likelihood of both ply and MDF showing joins and end grain.

One thing I did find successful when I was spraying MDF kitchens was to seal everything first with Acid Catalyst Lacquer, usually the two pack type although it also comes pre catalysed. Its flexible enough to allow a little movement without cracking and after rubbing down provides a first class base for the finish. If I wanted gloss I then put it on as a final coat too.

I am making a pair of speakers out of MDF now and am seeing how effective some simple sanding sealer is going to be on the cut parts. I always use Cascamite to glue it all together which is the strongest stuff I have found and I don't remember any joints springing.

When it comes down to it, getting a great finish is the the old '5% inspiration and 95% perspiration"

Stresss42
16-03-2014, 21:58
"When it comes down to it, getting a great finish is the the old '5% inspiration and 95% perspiration"

Totally agree there Gordon, even though the Pencil build for the Alpair 7 is an easy one it's taken me quite some time.
( Did cut some panels 5mm too short etc etc - was always on the cards ). :doh:
Now time to start all the prep work for the paint. I'll have a look at the Acid Catalyst Lacquer option now cheers Gordon. And thanks to all for your advice.
Will post the build pictures on the DIY section asap. All the best, Steve.