Beovox Penta’s (Passive) worth £200 / other 3 Way Recommendations?

[DarrenHW]

Disclaimer:
Ok, I know Bang and Olufsen’s a pretty controversial subject, the Marmite of most HiFi forums and the reason why I’m posing this question. For everyone who is not a fan of B&O (before I lose your interest) what other 3 way speakers would you recommend with a budget of upto £700? Only thoughts I have at the moment are IPL S5TL Kevlar Mk2 Ribbon (self build).

So I have the opportunity to pick up a pair of these for about £200.00, which to me seems like an amazing bargain for 3 way speakers. They come by way of a friend of a friend and the seller says they are in good physical condition, sound great etc, but is unprepared to even remove the grills to verify the condition of the components, may sound a bit dodgy but he’s a completely hands off kind of guy (friend of a friend so no reason to doubt) and more than happy for me to remove them but it’s a 350 mile round trip for me to check them out so I have to work on the assumption they’ll at least need refoaming and if I’m travelling that distance I’m coming home with them!
I know these speakers are not held in high regard and B&O withdrew them very quickly and replaced with the powered Beolab Penta’s, but for £200.00? My thoughts at the moment (always subject to change!) would be to power these with something like the 41Hz Audio Amp 15-PS http://shop.41hz.com/shop/item.asp?catid=15&itemid=15, with a buffered preamp such as the First Watt B1 (which I intend to build anyway).
So does this represent amazing value for money or are they really that bad / what else could you recommend within my ~ £700.00 budget? At the same time as being cheap if my original budget will accommodate a better alternative I’d rather spend £700 than waste £200, I know I can always sell them on but collection only is a PITA and I’d need an amp specifically for them!
All thoughts and recommendation gratefully received.

Background:
Whenever I’ve read posts on here asking for opinions on kit one of the most common responses is a request for more info regarding existing kit, musical tastes, room size, budget etc.. I hope I’ve covered all of this below, no need to read any further unless you are interested in this.

Vital Statistic:
Room Size ~ 5m x 5m x 2.4m – 16’ x 16’ x 8’, all walls are solid 9” double skin brick (no cavity), laminate flooring. Maximum speaker spacing (outside measurement from speaker to speaker) 3m – 12’ (due to door opening and protruding fireplace), distance from speaker wall (wall the speakers are in front off) to seating position 4m.

Existing Kit:

Non Negatioable:

Technics SL 1200 Mk2 basic mods (see signature), with more to come, Cambridge Audio 651p.

Subject To Change:

Speakers: Technics SB-4500A (more musical than Q Acoustics 1030i (home cinema setup), whilst I like their “warmth” they are a too “boomy”)/ Mordaunt Short Paegant 2 (awaiting new cabinets which have been cut down so unable to judge just yet) / Bang & Olusfen RL60.2, owned since 2002 and currently used in kitchen (more detail, clarity and soundstage than SB-4500A’s but lack the weight)

Amplifier: Technics SA-200 (more musical than Onkyo TX-SR607 (home cinema setup) but distorts at top end of female vocals Norah Jones, Kate Bush etc..)/ Bang & Olufsen Beomaster 3000-2 (more clarity and detail than SA-200 and no distortion, but not a particularly happy partner with SB-4500A’s).

Sub: Q Accoustics 1000Si.

So from what I’ve heard so far the sound I like is detailed and clear, without being clinical. I like weighty but not “boomy” bass and I love a big sound stage, before the arrival of the SA-200 I used to listen to vinyl via the Onkyo in all channel stereo, I know people will cringe at that but I loved the faux surround which worked well with artist such as Kate Bush, Pink Floyd and Dire Straits, however after the SA-200, stereo (with the sub involved, more cringing I know!) has become my preference, this has coincided with the mods performed on the 1200 so an improvement in the source material may also be part of my change in preference.
I’m aware that the above paragraph demonstrates how non-audiophilic I am (from my understanding Pishantista may be more appropriate!), and I have no aspirations to be considered an “audiophile”, I like the music I like and I like it presented as described above. This is why I like this forum and why I joined, the consensus here seems to be that as long as you enjoy your presentation that’s all that matters. Admittedly I have no other experience to draw on, I have not heard anything high end as none of my friends have any interest in HiFi, so every time I make a positive mod or upgrade it is the best thing I’ve ever heard so in this instance maybe ignorance is bliss?

Musical Tastes:
My record collection as it stands starts with Abba and ends with ZZ Top, favourite listening (on any source), female vocalists, Norah Jones, Kate Bush, Laura Marlin, Alanis Morrisette, Nerina Pallot (I could go on...), a bit of Country, Dolly Parton, Nanci Griffith, Kacey Musgraves, Emmylou Harris, Neil Diamond (not Country, but I don’t know where else to drop him in either way love his production and drama and records sound great) pretty much all genre’s of rock, Blondie, Thin Lizzy, Radiohead, RATM, Metallica, G n’ R, Pink Floyd (inc solo projects), Dire Straits, Aerosmith (again I could go on...), just about anything from the 80’s and 90’s, I was born in 1979 so give me a break!

[hoopsontoast]

Dawsons 'Profile Model 10s' Would be worth a go, I would have had them but I need something a bit more efficient for my Zen.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28561-Profile-Model-10-Full-Range-Monitor-Speakers-1980s-VINTAGE-HIGH-END-VOLT-SEAS&highlight=dawson

[Beobloke]

The Pentas are very nice loudspeakers and, IMHO, far better than the RL60s you currently have, of which I am not a fan. Yes, you're quite right that the Beolab versions are much more highly sought after but they can potentially have reliability issues with the amplifier module and the heat generated by the small spaces everything is crammed into. There's nothing wrong with the passive versions at all and I would say £200 is not a completely unreasonable price for them in unseen condition.

At the very worst if all eight bass drivers and eight midranges need refoaming this will cost you about £60 in parts and a couple of weeks' worth of evenings and you should still be able to to sell them for a profit should you decide they're not to your taste. I would replace the capacitors in the direct signal path to the tweeter and midranges, too, as these are likely to have aged. There is also a resistor in the crossover that is a little under-rated and can get rather crispy if the previous owner has been a bit careless with the volume control, so it is worth replacing this with a higher wattage item, especially if there are scorch marks on the PCB.

I must admit to a slight bias here as I have also recently acquired a pair which I shall be collecting in March - they'll be going on the end of my Beosystem 5000 once they're re-foamed and re-capped!

Oh, and one final warning - if you do buy them and like them, be prepared for the fact that you may well start looking at B&O partnering equipment. Don't bother to fight this - B&O can be very addicitve and it's almost inevitable! :D

[DarrenHW]

Rob - Thanks for the recommendation, I had seen these listed.

Adam - Thanks for the reply, I too am a closet B&O fan. I've had a few pieces over the last decade or so (amps and TV's and a T/T), I originally had a Beomaster 6000 paired with the RL's, but this was blown when an angle grinder I was using went bang so gave the Beomaster to a friend as it was beyond my ability to repair (a decision I've lived to regret!) and I'd picked it up for very little. Do you consider the Beomaster 5000 adequate to power the Penta's, I'd be more than happy to have one in my cabinet, I also believe the CD player's quite respected? Back in the late 90's I heard (my friends late father's) Penta MK3's through the Beosystem 5000 and was amazed, (admittedly my setup at the time was an Aiwa all in one plastic moulded system so no comparison) he was a big Pink Floyd fan (actually the person who introduced me to Pink Floyd and B&O) and I was in awe of the system, but although I have found memories of his setup (including BeoLink to other rooms) that was a very long time ago and I was 16 and very impressionable! I have always intended to own a pair of Beolab Penta's and I'm not sure whether this is my heart ruling my head (to be honest who cares!), at the price I'd consider them worth buying just for their aesthetics if I had the room to just have them sitting around! In terms of amplification what would your opinion be of powering them with a Beocenter 9300, again another piece of B&O kit I've always wanted to own? If you feel a Beo master / center, would be capable of powering the Penta's that would be decision made.
Thanks.

[Lodgesound]

Agree with you totally there Beobloke.....!!!

I was just 16 when I went on my first B&O repair / sales & maintenance course at their then UK headquarters in Gloucester.

The Penta's were born of some extremely serious research into speaker design - the sort of research that the BBC were doing just after the War which gave rise to some considerable advancements in loudspeaker design and manufacture throughout the world.

Do not be put off by the name - B&O made some very innovative machinery and their speakers were at the time and still are some of the finest sounding home units you will hear. Column speakers mean a wide elliptical dispersal pattern due to their narrow front baffles as I am sure I do not have to remind the scientists here making them very good for image and sound staging.

Do not forget that B&O also actually invented the concept of "servo driven analogue tape biasing" which would later have patents taken out by them and Dolby laboratories to become a system known as HXPRO which was applied to cassette decks and analogue professional tape machines in the last years of this technology before digital took over.

A fascinating company with a worthy legacy in today's sometimes sterile technological landscape.

[Kember]

Darren

i had a pair until recently - they are not at all bad and a fair price at 200. You might want to ask about dings to the metal though as they can end up looking battered quite easily. Also, do you have small children? There is a lot of shiny real estate to polish and they show fingermarks unforgivingly.

Peter

[Beobloke]

Adam - Thanks for the reply, I too am a closet B&O fan. I've had a few pieces over the last decade or so (amps and TV's and a T/T), I originally had a Beomaster 6000 paired with the RL's, but this was blown when an angle grinder I was using went bang so gave the Beomaster to a friend as it was beyond my ability to repair (a decision I've lived to regret!) and I'd picked it up for very little. Do you consider the Beomaster 5000 adequate to power the Penta's, I'd be more than happy to have one in my cabinet, I also believe the CD player's quite respected? Back in the late 90's I heard (my friends late father's) Penta MK3's through the Beosystem 5000 and was amazed, (admittedly my setup at the time was an Aiwa all in one plastic moulded system so no comparison) he was a big Pink Floyd fan (actually the person who introduced me to Pink Floyd and B&O) and I was in awe of the system, but although I have found memories of his setup (including BeoLink to other rooms) that was a very long time ago and I was 16 and very impressionable! I have always intended to own a pair of Beolab Penta's and I'm not sure whether this is my heart ruling my head (to be honest who cares!), at the price I'd consider them worth buying just for their aesthetics if I had the room to just have them sitting around! In terms of amplification what would your opinion be of powering them with a Beocenter 9300, again another piece of B&O kit I've always wanted to own? If you feel a Beo master / center, would be capable of powering the Penta's that would be decision made.
Thanks.

Yes, the Beomaster 5000 will drive them very nicely although if you want to up the wattage they can handle it OK (go on, Beomaster 8000 - I dare you!).

As to the rest of the 5000 system, the original CD player that came with it is the Beogram CD50 and this is a very fine unit that performs very well. I'm not a fan of the later CD5500 personally as, although the sound is better, the disc loading clamp on the two I have owned has a lot of play in it - if it doesn't land centrally then the disc wobbles as it spins and the player struggles to read it. The system's two turntables are either the Beogram 5000 or the linear tracking Beogram 5005 - the latter is more 'respected' and commands a higher price but is a worse performer than the radial tracking 5000. Finally, the Beocord 5000 cassette deck is one of the best cassette decks of the era regardless of price or name on the front. Given that they can be had for as little as £20, this makes them one of the true audio cassette bargains in my book!

The Beocenter 9x00 range are also worthy contenders and will work very nicely with the Pentas, but the 9000 and the 9500 are the ones to have. The 9300 is a later cost-cut version that does not perform as well.

[DarrenHW]

Agree with you totally there Beobloke.....!!!

Do not be put off by the name

Definitely not put off by the name, complete opposite, just really want confirmation I'm not favouring form over function :scratch:. There are plenty of people who despise B&O, but there are also many people who believe the SL-1200 is nothing more than a DJ spinner, but consensus on here is the opposite. Most criticism of B&O is aimed at the price, but I think on the second hand market their products represent excellent value for money, hence my post, what else could I buy for £200.00? I also understand that a majority of the B&O client base buy it for the name, my friend who's fathers system I referenced above is a die hard B&O customer and has spent over £10,000 with them in the last 10 years or so, in 2001 I went to the dealership with him to pick up his new Beocenter 2300, and a pair of second hand RL60's with the power amp block (can't remember what it's model number was), at the time he owned 7 CD's! Over the last 10 years his CD collection has increased to approximately 100, he now owns Beolab 8000's and listens to music from his iPod! :doh: He's a full on B&O obsessive but has no real appreciation for music, just likes shiny boxes with the right label on them, he's a really nice guy though, sounds like I'm being a bit harsh and hell, it makes him happy!

[DarrenHW]

The Beocenter 9x00 range are also worthy contenders and will work very nicely with the Pentas, but the 9000 and the 9500 are the ones to have. The 9300 is a later cost-cut version that does not perform as well.

Well, that does change things considerably, I didn't think at 30wpc they'd be capable of driving the 150wpc Penta's? Thanks for the heads up on the 9300, I thought it put out more power than either the 9500 or 9000. I did consider the Beomaster 8000 to be the perfect partner for the Penta's (IMHO), but seems to be quite rare but to start with a 9000 (seen them go for ~£100.00) and keep an eye out for an 8000, and move the 9000 to the kitchen with the RL's. Again coming down to value for money a Beocenter 9000 with Beovox Penta's could be picked up for about £300.00, what else could you pick up for that sort of money?

[DarrenHW]

Darren

i had a pair until recently - they are not at all bad and a fair price at 200. You might want to ask about dings to the metal though as they can end up looking battered quite easily. Also, do you have small children? There is a lot of shiny real estate to polish and they show fingermarks unforgivingly.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Conditions supposed to be very good, I know what you're saying though. No no kids, just a cat who like to claw everything other than her scratch post so that's my only concern! What did you replace them with?

[Kember]

Hi Peter,

Conditions supposed to be very good, I know what you're saying though. No no kids, just a cat who like to claw everything other than her scratch post so that's my only concern! What did you replace them with?

They were in my kitchen system and when I moved to a flat from a large house, they had to go along with the Beosystem 6500.

Re reassurance on resale value for good nick B&O stuff, IIRC I sold the Beosystem (w/o the Pentas) on for about the same as I paid for it, so I got over five years use of the equipment for nothing:lol:. I offered the Pentas here in exchange for a small donation to charity because they were far from pristine - they had dings and dents and a few snags but still worked fine.

HTH

Peter

[Beobloke]

Well, that does change things considerably, I didn't think at 30wpc they'd be capable of driving the 150wpc Penta's? Thanks for the heads up on the 9300, I thought it put out more power than either the 9500 or 9000. I did consider the Beomaster 8000 to be the perfect partner for the Penta's (IMHO), but seems to be quite rare but to start with a 9000 (seen them go for ~£100.00) and keep an eye out for an 8000, and move the 9000 to the kitchen with the RL's. Again coming down to value for money a Beocenter 9000 with Beovox Penta's could be picked up for about £300.00, what else could you pick up for that sort of money?

Sorry - realised I hadn't expanded on this!

The 9000, 9300 and 9500 are all rated at 80W per channel, but the 9300 is based around the internals of the 2500 system which was a fairly basic all-in-one unit. The 9000 and 9500 are both based on the architecture of the Beomaster 5500 which was the top of the range receiver at the time and they also offer Dolby B and C with automatic detection of whether the tape was recorded using either system, plus a proper phono stage. The 9300 has only a more basic cassette deck with Dolby B and no phono input.

A Beocenter 9500 would be my choice, personally.

[DarrenHW]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the response and for taking the time to reply to my other newb questions. I've decided to take the plunge and will be collecting this weekend. Do you think my Beomaster 3000 2 will be capable of driving these in the interim, I've looked up the specs and it's rated at 30w RMS - 60w Music Power @ 4ohm, I know the Penta's are 8ohm and if I correctly understand what I've read an 8ohm speaker is a more efficient (easier?) load? Kind of academic anyway as I won't be able to stop myself from plugging them in :rolleyes:.

Thanks.

[Beobloke]

Yes, the BM3000 will be fine in the interim and i think you've made the right decision! However, I would get the grilles off as soon as you can and check out the condition of all the foam surrounds. If they're at all perished then you don't want to be using them until they're repaired.

[DarrenHW]

i think you've made the right decision!

Thanks, only 2 more sleeps till I collect :D. Can you recommend a source for the surrounds (I can find the mid range on ebay but not woofers), I've looked up a few articles regarding XO rebuilding, I'm thinking of using Solen caps (well priced, well reviewed (for price), and available in UK), any recommendations for caps or resistors (not really after "boutique" parts, just suitable replacements)? Whilst reading some people have found it necessary to replace the inductors, caps and resistors I can deal with as they usually have their values printed on them as for inductors I don't know where to start, any thoughts on replacement? I know all these questions are very premature but if I've got to refurb them before I can listen to them properly I want to get everything sorted ASAP, I'm like a little kid waiting for Christmas!:lol:

[Beobloke]

I always buy my surrounds from Good Hi-Fi and they sell a set of the correctly sized items for the midranges here: http://www.speakerrepairshop.com/index.php?item=a-set-foam-rings-for-bang-_amp_-olufsen-beolab-penta-mid---9-pcs&action=article&group_id=10000013&aid=2475&lang=en (not sure why 9 - there are only 8 in a pair of Pentas!).

They do offer rubber replacements as well but I do not recommend using these as they will change the characteristics of the driver - stick with foam.

For the bass ones, it's simply a case of measuring the roll inner diameter, roll outer diameter and overall surround outer diameter and picking one by size from their catalogue.

As to components, stick "crossover capacitors" into CPC's search box and this will bring up their range, which are fine. Equally some decently rated wirewounds from the same place will be fine for resistor replacement. Don't worry about the inductors unless any of them are charred or have fallen apart!

[DarrenHW]

After a 350 mile round trip here are some photo's of the Penta's. Surrounds on the mid range are quite crusty and have started to crack, (replacement surrounds ordered) and one of the woofer dust covers has been finger blasted! It looks like there should be some cross braces on the grilles but these have been broken on all grilles so a bit of plastic and super glue may in order.

Unfortunately the BM3000 was woefully inadequate, at 75% (on the volume slider) the speakers were still a little on the quite side but signs of "clipping" were evident :(. By an amazing stroke of luck I picked up a Yamaha AX-590 on Friday 100wpc 8ohm which is far more comfortable with the Penta's, generally volume at about 9 o'clock and sounds pretty clean but lacks the sparkle of the sellers 9500 he demo'd these on, to add insult to injury I missed the end of an auction for a BM5500 (as travelling back) which went for just £56.00 + P+P.

Initial listening was very encouraging, Pink Floyd "The Wall" and Laura Marlin "A Creature I Don't Know" (both on vinyl) were stand out examples of how much better these perform than my existing Technics. I was a little concerned when I had a bit of crackle from both tweeters, but this seems to have settled down. This was evident when listening to some recent electro / hip hop, the seller was in his 60's and most recent album (in terms of release date) was Fleetwood Mac Rumours, so these have had no exposure to the sort of music I was feeding them, is it even possible that this could be a "burn in" issue from possibly source material, amp, cart, phonostage (all of the above), or could this point to deeper issues? My only other cause for concern was during a section of "frantic" cymbal / hihat drumming (Metallica "Metallica" half speed recording) which was just a confused mess, not something that troubled the Technics.

[DarrenHW]

Initial inspection of the crossovers is very encouraging, all components appear to be in very good physical condition, no signs of burnt out components, no scorching on the PCB's and thankfully all coils intact. Regarding recapping, I have looked on CPC as you suggested but I'm struggling to find correct values. As I understand it Voltage can be increased but a change in uF would result in a change in XO frequency? Admittedly I have not spent much time researching this and more reading is required, I believe 2 capacitors can be used in series to achieve correct values? Another point of confusion is the cylinder in the base of the speakers, initially I thought this was an overload protection fuse but I am unable to open it, I'd be most grateful if you could tell me what it is, I can find no reference to it in the owners manual and I'm yet to acquire a service manual.

Cosmetically, the speakers are in pretty good condition a few minor dings which I can live with, my only cause for concern is the top stainless steel covers which both seem to have been snagged on something, have light creases and have peeled up at the back, I believe these are just stuck on, can I just peel these off and reglue? Also one of the bottom metal effect plastic bases is not properly aligned (hopefully evident in photo), I've applied light pressure to this and it too feels like it is glued on, do you know whether this is the case?

Thanks for all your support and sorry to bombard you with more questions.

[DarrenHW]

11626

Just a quick update, I've now refoamed the mid range drivers and I'm very happy with the results. Took me pretty much all day to do and I'm pretty happy with the results achieved (first ever attempt at refoaming). SQ is dramatically increased and I'm very happy with the sound of the Penta's. Anyone who's owned a pair of these will probably know that both speakers have the tweeters offset to the right and the midrange to the left, after some advice from Adam I decided to flip the unit (midrange rewired accordingly) and try them mirrored. This has brought a great deal of balance to the Pentas, I felt they sounded a bit lob sided before and this is definitely remedied by mirroring them. I've tried them with both the tweeters on the inside and outside, on the inside they increased the "wall of sound" sound that the Penta's have and did feel maybe a bit tighter, with them on the outside the sound stage is vastly larger and the speakers seem more transparent. As the dead centre listening position in my lounge is a coffee table, I generally listen to music abut 600mm off centre and have found that placing the tweeters on the outside offers the best results for off centre listening. If anyone reading this has a pair of Penta's I'd recommend giving it a go!

In short I'm very happy with the Penta's (so much so I'm now looking for a pair of Beolab's) and would like to thank everyone who contributed on this thread for encouraging me to buy them.

:cheers: