View Full Version : Good sound days/bad sound days...
I don't know what's happened, but with the old OC9 in a new-old-stock Dual headslide, the arm bearings re-checked in case there were rattles and everything else as before, I'm having the best sound from records I've had since the Mentor/Decca days.. yet sometimes mid-day in mid-week, the system sounds like the cobbled together lash-up it often is, all thick bass and no upper-mid...
Maybe my ears have recovered enough from the pounding I gave them a few weeks ago and the infection's finally abated, maybe the mains is good on Saturday afternoons and maybe I'm just feeling good, but my gawd I'm enjoying the music today :gig:
The other thing is, despite my humble vinyl player, I'm enjoying LP's I haven't played in years and I'm sure I'm hearing *and feeling* perspectives I never heard on the LP12's I owned when I bought these records. Only the most intense records are upsetting the step-up transformer gain - Discipline by King Crimson is a classic "difficult" pressing and the CD was subtly re-mixed by Robert Fripp I understand.
What say you guys?
Your mood, it's all important.
chris@panteg
13-06-2009, 21:28
I don't know what's happened, but with the old OC9 in a new-old-stock Dual headslide, the arm bearings re-checked in case there were rattles and everything else as before, I'm having the best sound from records I've had since the Mentor/Decca days.. yet sometimes mid-day in mid-week, the system sounds like the cobbled together lash-up it often is, all thick bass and no upper-mid...
Maybe my ears have recovered enough from the pounding I gave them a few weeks ago and the infection's finally abated, maybe the mains is good on Saturday afternoons and maybe I'm just feeling good, but my gawd I'm enjoying the music today :gig:
The other thing is, despite my humble vinyl player, I'm enjoying LP's I haven't played in years and I'm sure I'm hearing *and feeling* perspectives I never heard on the LP12's I owned when I bought these records. Only the most intense records are upsetting the step-up transformer gain - Discipline by King Crimson is a classic "difficult" pressing and the CD was subtly re-mixed by Robert Fripp I understand.
What say you guys?
Hi Dave
I think it could be just a variation in the mains quality.
I have an original pressing of Disipline , yes you are right it is a funny recording , The sheltering sky is a stunning piece though and worth getting the album for this alone IMHO.
Your mood, it's all important.
Seconded.
Mood, tiredness, stress - thee things alter your perception of system performance just as they would at a live concert.
Mains quality and mood are both contributors.
Agreed. Your mood and mains quality have a notable effect.
Agreed with all the above but would just add that, as a Naimee, you can set your watch at 09:01 am weekdays by the angry hornets' nest that the PSU becomes as a zillion computers in offices the length and breadth of the country are booted up and their grotty switch mode power supplies pollute the mains. What chance do our poor old stereos stand against that sort of bashing? Grrrrrrrr:steam::steam:
Ah, but some other amps don't react to bad mains the way Naims do........;)
During the week, *when playing LP's,* the system definitely sounds odd in the bass compared to weekends and I put this down to the Spendors, which even though they're BC2's, still don't have the kind of bass quality of a big box. Yesterday though, I was enchanted and had a huge grin on my face. Perhaps it's the Dual.....
It's very warm outside today, so I may give the stereo a rest until later :)
P.S. I can't always understand what Robert Fripp was about back then. Some of his guitar work is beautiful and very sensitively played, but at other times, he seemed to get swamped by the "clever-clever" band members and everything descended into a tuneless chaos of supreme musicianship (if you see what I mean).
I dug the TD125 out after six months of sitting in a sealed box. Looks good and it has a good main bearing with no obvious slop.... Not a Techie I'll admit, but may work a treat with a Grace and Supex, or one of the ADC's...
Ah, but some other amps don't react to bad mains the way Naims do........;)
That's interesting as I've heard Naim transformers become noisy at certain times but rarely noticed it actually alter the sound of the system.
Good amplifiers are pretty immune to this stuff, only some of the silly hair shirt stuff with too much bandwidth and poor screening suffer IMO. Just avoid them and the problem goes away.
I don't include Naim in that BTW, and all of the valve amps I've used seem pretty immune to mains quality variation.
That's interesting as I've heard Naim transformers become noisy at certain times but rarely noticed it actually alter the sound of the system.
Quite, the sound remains pretty well unaffected but it does show the amount of hash and the strain put on the mains supply at various times of the day and some systems seem to cope better than others.;)
Regard
I think naims of old suffer other "problems" due to bias drift and caps not fully "forming" etc. over the first hours of use. Looking back, I remember some Naim amps and supplies that were perfectly behaved in one locale and un-usable elsewhere - my CB 160 was like this. The box with my name on it was awful at home, yet perfect in the shop and the other from that consignment (within a few units of serial number) was perfect at home, only snarling very quietly on Sunday afternoons, this gently increasing and decreasing as the hours went on.
I do remember a CDS2/XPS combo buzzing like a chain-saw in a village location, a replacement barely changing this. The client replaced this (and the ARC LS25 he'd also bought) with a Theta DaViD and matching modular processor/preamp. The sound was at least as good and the DaViD came in handy for when he developed the system into a full Top End home theatre system costing many tens of thousands of pounds after I'd foolishly gone "on the road" for a couple of years (seems like a lifetime ago now, 2000-02).
Ali Tait
14-06-2009, 19:39
IMHO perhaps Naim should start using decent components instead of the cheap crap they use,especially taking into account the vast sums they have the cheek to charge for their kit! Just my opinion of course.;)
Hehe, best not go there methinks...;)
I have to admit to something else regarding yesterday's lovely music session (and bearing in mind a certain "bit of a do thread" elsewhere where digital items supposedly spoiling analogue listing sessions are concerned). We had THREE computers running in the house plus a TV with SMPS at the time. So there!!! :D
That's not what RD is on about, he's talking about direct PC to preamp/amp connection using SPDIF or some other interface that electrically connects the two. His amps are run off an isolated and balance mains feed so there is no interference via the mains and therefore no ill affect caused by a PC elsewhere in the house.
As an aside, though, switch-mode PSUs connected anywhere in-line with the mains supply for a hi-fi system are in my experience a bad thing... They do chuck lots of noise into the supply, and I'm sure it could be measured, too ;)
I've no idea how some people can plug their PC and mobile phone into the same mains block as their system, for example! :mental:
Marco.
I don't go that far, but surely a 1:1 transformer would break the earth coupling to the amp and also add some form of gentle RF filtering as well (that's what my CD player does...). RD just went a bit OTT in this instance IMO, as all those bodies in his listening room would make far more difference to what they'd be hearing on the day.
Anyway, my 701 would knock all those old decks (and the LP12) into the weeds :ner: Oh alright, maybe not :)
Mains quality and mood are both contributors.
I would also add the weather! Most pick up cartridges prefer operating at 25 deg C. Some people use a small spotlight style lamp trained on the arm/ cartridge to help. My speakers (Quad 57s) are the opposite, they seem to like cooler temperatures: 15 -18 degC.
Whilst I appreciate that the use of electronics with switched mode power supplies is becoming increasing prevalent and that these can inject a lot of noise and hash into the mains supply, any well designed power supply used in audio equipment ought to be largely immune to this. Clearly some equipment which could be naimed is lacking in this respect.
As to mood, stress etc. affecting ones enjoyment - I find that listening to music (helped by a glass of wine or beer) is a great cure if you have had a bad day at work!
Barry
I don't go that far, but surely a 1:1 transformer would break the earth coupling to the amp and also add some form of gentle RF filtering as well (that's what my CD player does...). RD just went a bit OTT in this instance IMO, as all those bodies in his listening room would make far more difference to what they'd be hearing on the day.
Anyway, my 701 would knock all those old decks (and the LP12) into the weeds :ner: Oh alright, maybe not :)
You raise an interesting point.
Any dormant source or SMPS on the line would have to be extremely bad to start masking the gulf that exists between an LP12, Pioneer, Technics or Dual deck, not to mention the large variations between the arms and cartridges. That's not to say that you couldn't engineer a situation where noise could be heard, such as placing a phono stage directly above a poorly shielded dac, or where it could be measured but in the vast majority of cases any noise from the digital source will sit way down in the system noise floor.
Of course if the amplifier in question is balsed-up form the start by being especially prone to these effects by bad design, well yes it won't work as intended when you apply it in the real world. Thankfully most manufacturers are aware of real world practicalities and design accordingly.
Whilst I appreciate that the use of electronics with switched mode power supplies is becoming increasing prevalent and that these can inject a lot of noise and hash into the mains supply, any well designed power supply used in audio equipment ought to be largely immune to this. Clearly some equipment which could be naimed is lacking in this respect.
Hi Barry,
You're not wrong. However, my approach with the mains supply and hi-fi equipment is 'not to lock the door after the horse has bolted', so to speak, or prevention is better than cure...
Far better not to have SMPS's in line with the supply for your system in the first place than to 'worry' equipment about having to deal with the noise they generate. That's what separate spurs/dedicated mains set-ups are for ;)
In my opinion, no 'serious audiophile' should be without at least one :)
Personally, unless I had to, I wouldn't buy gear that uses SMPS's, as I think they're crap and only designed for convenience. When I get into computer audio I'll install a dedicated (filtered) mains spur solely for the computer paraphernalia, which is completely separate from the rest of my system. If you're gonna do it, do it right!
Marco.
Personally, unless I had to, I wouldn't buy gear that uses SMPS's, as I think they're crap and only designed for convenience
I'd like to see you argue that one with John Franks, designer of Chord amplifiers all of which incorporate his SMPS designs - not for convenience, but for performance. In any case, my ears tell me different :)
Haselsh1
15-06-2009, 15:08
As to mood, stress etc. affecting ones enjoyment - I find that listening to music (helped by a glass of wine or beer) is a great cure if you have had a bad day at work!
Barry
Helped no doubt by listenening at night with all of the room lights off.
I'd like to see you argue that one with John Franks, designer of Chord amplifiers all of which incorporate his SMPS designs - not for convenience, but for performance. In any case, my ears tell me different
Hi Martin,
I'm sure it's a case, like with many things in hi-fi, of not just what you do but how you do it.
I can imagine that when you get to the level of your Chord equipment, different rules apply. One can only speak from experience, though, so being a hardcore valve-boy, perhaps SMPS's are a solid-state thing I just don't 'get'? :)
Certainly some Linn amps I've heard, which use SMPS technology, are to my ears shockingly bad in terms of musical blandness, with that 'uninteresting', cold and clinical, tonally grey sound I associate with solid-state amps when done badly.
I have to be honest, too, Martin and say that I've never been impressed with Chord amps at shows - again to my ears sounding similar to what I've described above. However I respect your opinion, and we share similar tastes in some areas of hi-fi, so I'm sure that I'm missing plenty of good things that Chord amps do through not having heard them so far in the right system or environment. We'll have to rectify that sorry state of affairs sometime :cool:
Marco.
Thought I'd have a couple of sessions today and guess what, on LP's the muddy bass came back for ten minutes or so. Either my ears became used to it or something warmed up, but the setup sounded OK from then on :)
Currently playing Dreams by Klaus Schulze. When this guy gets it right he's incredible, but there's nothing dreamy about this - it drones on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on............
Hi Barry,
You're not wrong. However, my approach with the mains supply and hi-fi equipment is 'not to lock the door after the horse has bolted', so to speak, or prevention is better than cure...
Far better not to have SMPS's in line with the supply for your system in the first place than to 'worry' equipment about having to deal with the noise they generate. That's what separate spurs/dedicated mains set-ups are for ;)
In my opinion, no 'serious audiophile' should be without at least one :)
Personally, unless I had to, I wouldn't buy gear that uses SMPS's, as I think they're crap and only designed for convenience. When I get into computer audio I'll install a dedicated (filtered) mains spur solely for the computer paraphernalia, which is completely separate from the rest of my system. If you're gonna do it, do it right!
Marco.
Hi Marco
As far as I know the only items of electronics using a SMPS that we have in the house are: the microwave; TV (not sure about this, as it is 25 years old and seems to have a large transformer inside) and ancilary equipment such as DVD player and digibox; and the computer. None of these are in use whilst we are listening to the main system.
Would agree with you regarding avoiding SMPS, but I would imagine most modern CD players and/or DACs use them now. Your intention to use a separate spur, if and when you embrace computer audio, is a very good idea indeed.
Maybe we are lucky but the local mains here does not seem to be badly affected by RF, switching spikes or what have you. I don't notice any change of performance during the evening when neighbours could well be using electrical items fitted with SMPS. Mind you, I have never monitored the mains with a logging analyser.
Whilst I would concur that prevention is better than cure, I still believe that a well designed power supply should not only not generate interference, it should also prevent mains borne interference affecting the audio circuitry it supplies.
Regards
Barry
I'm listening to Radio 3 right now, while all three computers in the house are in use, my old laptop perched on my knees. No probs at all.....:)
Certainly some Linn amps I've heard, which use SMPS technology, are to my ears shockingly bad in terms of musical blandness, with that 'uninteresting', cold and clinical, tonally grey sound I associate with solid-state amps when done badly.
I have to be honest, too, Martin and say that I've never been impressed with Chord amps at shows - again to my ears sounding similar to what I've described above. However I respect your opinion, and we share similar tastes in some areas of hi-fi, so I'm sure that I'm missing plenty of good things that Chord amps do through not having heard them so far in the right system or environment. We'll have to rectify that sorry state of affairs sometime
I've tried Linn Klimax power amps in my system and didn't like them very much either. They sounded exactly as you describe.
As for Chord at shows, I totally agree with you. I tried to tell John Franks a couple of years ago that using Wilson Benesch speakers was a mistake and he wasn't interested (I find WB speakers cold and lifeless). Astonishing, then, that recently they've been using different speaker brands at last. However, now they focus on stupid features such as streaming music from phones. Very clever, but who cares?
None of this can detract from the quality of their power amps and the enormous success they've had selling into studios. Their marketing may be wayward, but don't judge the amps that way. I've had my SPM1200E now for about 7 years and I still haven't found an amp I prefer; its combination of almost limitless headroom, dynamic clout and a wealth of micro-detail with little personality of its own is superb. Any system that can bring tears to my eyes when I play the Four Last Songs sung by Jessye Norman has no problem imparting emotional intensity.
If you're ever down this way (I know you live far away), then come and have a listen!
Sounds good, Martin!
I don't doubt any of your comments; indeed they are most interesting. This is precisely why on AOS we can all learn from each other's experiences without one-upmanship or the belligerent competitiveness which so afflicts many other places :)
Barry,
Would agree with you regarding avoiding SMPS, but I would imagine most modern CD players and/or DACs use them now. Your intention to use a separate spur, if and when you embrace computer audio, is a very good idea indeed.
That'll probably be one of the reasons why I don't own any of such things ;)
Rest assured that when I do embark on my journey into computer audio that what I end up with will be installed and set-up with the same meticulous attention to detail that was applied to the rest of my system. Would you expect anything else from moi? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
15-06-2009, 21:57
I've tried Linn Klimax power amps in my system and didn't like them very much either. They sounded exactly as you describe.
As for Chord at shows, I totally agree with you. I tried to tell John Franks a couple of years ago that using Wilson Benesch speakers was a mistake and he wasn't interested (I find WB speakers cold and lifeless). Astonishing, then, that recently they've been using different speaker brands at last. However, now they focus on stupid features such as streaming music from phones. Very clever, but who cares?
None of this can detract from the quality of their power amps and the enormous success they've had selling into studios. Their marketing may be wayward, but don't judge the amps that way. I've had my SPM1200E now for about 7 years and I still haven't found an amp I prefer; its combination of almost limitless headroom, dynamic clout and a wealth of micro-detail with little personality of its own is superb. Any system that can bring tears to my eyes when I play the Four Last Songs sung by Jessye Norman has no problem imparting emotional intensity.
If you're ever down this way (I know you live far away), then come and have a listen!
I have a Chord one CD player and like everything else IMHO/E it benefits from a better mains cable. I also have a Chapter Audio Signature pre and Couplet power amplifier....both of which have Chord heritage in that Duncan Shipton (Chapters main man) worked for Chord. Guess what they too benefit from better mains cables.
John Franks has had some very good sounds in his room at shows...the last Sept show at heathrow Renaissance (Hi-Fi news) was a case in point. The Choral system sounded amazing as did the bigger set-up (this changed my mind about Chord). However in the Park Inn the sound was dire..John looked miserable (using WB speakers).
Regards D S D L
I have a Chord one CD player and like everything else IMHO/E it benefits from a better mains cable. I also have a Chapter Audio Signature pre and Couplet power amplifier....both of which have Chord heritage in that Duncan Shipton (Chapters main man) worked for Chord. Guess what they too benefit from better mains cables.
Yep. For all that it has an advanced SMPS my 1200E sounds much better being run from my PS Audio Power Plant Premier via a Kimber Reference Powerkord.
Interesting pick for a resurrection this one.
I'm not convinced personally that improving mains feeds whether it is a dedicated supply or a regenerator or whatever will always yield an improvement. I think it is down to a combination of how well the equipment rejects noise and how noisy the supply in the area is to begin with. I used to have issues similar to what DSJR describes in the OP but it seemed to depend on the kit I was using. However having done a serious comparison of various mains blocks I am convinced that there is an improvement to be had by using a fancy one over a B&Q standard effort - not massive but audible enough to be worth the extra money, so it probably makes sense to tick that box and the power cable and dedicated mains boxes as well if you are intending to go balls out for top notch quality and you don't mind spending the money.
Yup, I’d agree.
Certainly, in my experience, much of the ‘off day’ syndrome, with hi-fi systems, can be cured by optimising how they receive power from the mains supply. A dedicated earth also helps, which can often reduce overall noise quite drastically :)
Marco.
I posted some time back now about an issue I had where the system would sound great on a Sunday night but come Monday evening would be bland and boring, until about 1930 when it would suddenly clear up and sound really good and involving again. I though this was mains issues, which is a logical conclusion but the real cause was something else entirely. It was summer and I had been returning from work with the car windows rolled down. This was affecting my hearing for several hours afterwards and clearing up at pretty much the same point in time every evening. A rolled off top end and a slight mush in the sound - which I assumed quite reasonably was the mains or the equipment - was actually a temporary tinnitus, although subtle and not noticeable with TV sound or with people speaking to me. Windows up and air con on from then on and the problem disappeared immediately. Lesson learned - consider all the possibilities before jumping to a conclusion.
Sure, you need to look into all the possibilities, but if I came down to your place just now and we installed a dedicated mains supply and earth for your system, you’d think that up until that point you’d been listening with tinnitus!! ;)
Marco.
My hut does need a full electrical overhaul (I bought it from a sparky so naturally the electrics are not up to code) so when that happens I will be having all the hi-fi related gubbins put in en passant as they say. Will be happening in the next couple of years. I don't think it would make as much of an improvement as you say but it certainly can't hurt and you never really know the outcome of anything in this game until you try it yourself.
Well, when you’re thinking on having it done, let me know and I’ll enlist the services of my sparky mate, who works for Wrexham District Council, and I’ll bring him down to your place.
He really knows his stuff, and he’s also into hi-fi (so he’s sympathetic towards our levels of daftness) - and above all he’s cheap! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Sounds good but it is a big job, needs a cable to be run up the front of the building and through the loft (for the earth I think) new consumer board and lord knows what else. If it could just be done in a couple of hours like in a modern house then I'd have done it already!
It wouldn’t bother him - he’d take as long as it needed to get the job done right, to his exacting standards. He lives just down the road from me, so let me know when you want to make it happen :)
Marco.
walpurgis
16-08-2014, 09:27
I find playing the right music whilst having a couple of pints in the evening works wonders on how the system sounds! :cool:
I couldn't remember my starting this, but a good few years, plus a diagnosis of T2 Diabetes (root cause I think of the numerous ear infections I was getting) have settled things down a bit. When I lived in Luton twenty years ago, there were definitely mains 'off days' as both I and a Linn active system owner found the same thing. here by the seaside, the mains is far better and my mood/tiredness dictates it all now :)
I find playing the right music whilst having a couple of pints in the evening works wonders on how the system sounds! :cool:
Well I find that If I am enjoying it to begin with then as alcohol takes hold I enjoy it more. But if something is not right I could drink all the booze in the world it makes no difference, I will always end up switching off and putting the TV on instead. Or going out.
A good read for a Friday night !!
seeing as I live in between Macca and Marco ,and being a newbie , I will keep my thoughts to myself:)
walpurgis
22-08-2014, 22:29
A good read for a Friday night !!
seeing as I live in between Macca and Marco ,and being a newbie , I will keep my thoughts to myself:)
Nah. Go on spit it out! :eek:
Off topic alert. Just seen your avatar Oddball - fab. Last year I found Kelly's Heroes again and my teenage boys watched it for the first time - Priceless!
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