View Full Version : Ashamed to be British
As it says in the headline, today I am ashamed to be British. The verdict in the Mark Duggan inquiry effectively gives the green light to our authorities to shoot unarmed civilians. Now, there appears to be evidence that Duggan did in fact have a firearm in the taxi however it also states that he threw the firearm out of the window when he realised that a Hard Stop was in progress. At this point he ceased to become a threat to the officers involved in this operation and yet they shot and killed him. I accept that he was not an innocent in this but did he really deserve to die? No, of course not, he should have been brought to justice.
Looks like another thing we will disagree on, Dave. It was the life he chose, and that is sometimes how it works out. The cops have been shooting innocent people by mistake for years - remember that fella in the mini back in the 'eighties when they put about 50 rounds into the car before realising it was the wrong car, and the wrong man? Or more recently the Brazilian bloke on the tube train?
He was a drug dealer , a gangster, he routinely carried a weapon - tough shit, I say.
Ali Tait
08-01-2014, 21:21
Well given this was the jury's decision, I'm assuming they have seen more info than the public have been privy to?
Wakefield Turntables
08-01-2014, 22:11
:no: This dude was carrying a gun. For me if your gonna play with guns your probably gonna die with guns and in this is exactly what happened. Logic is don't mess with guns and abide by the law.
I strongly disagree, our Police should not be judge, jury and executioner otherwise we may as well throw civilisation out the window too... :doh:
I strongly disagree, our Police should not be judge, jury and executioner otherwise we may as well throw civilisation out the window too... :doh:
Abstract chat indeed, Dave you are talking b..ox if I may say so, suggest you delete the entire thread as it has no place on AOS which is a music forum first and foremost.
All this 'ashamed to be ..' and 'proud to be ..' stuff baffles me. Unless I was directly or indirectly involved in the relevant incident, I don't see where pride or shame comes into it.
Look, as I have written in my OP, I understand the guy was up to no good, my question is, should he have been killed for it and the answer in a civilised society has to be, no he shouldn't have been. Had he been arrested and taken before the beak he would have been forced to take responsibility for his actions...
Abstract chat indeed, Dave you are talking b..ox if I may say so, suggest you delete the entire thread as it has no place on AOS which is a music forum first and foremost.
With the greatest respect Dave this is Abstract Chat where members are allowed to talk about things other than music, says so in the title...
Abstract chat indeed, Dave you are talking b..ox if I may say so, suggest you delete the entire thread as it has no place on AOS which is a music forum first and foremost.
A hifi forum first and foremost, surely?
Ninanina
08-01-2014, 22:46
All I can say is I have no time for our police service....I have a few of 'first hand' reasons to make this statement; at one time I held our police in high esteem but not now I'm afraid
Whether they should have shot this guy dead I have absolutely no idea as I wasn't there etc etc.... what I DO know is that the police will "protect each others Bums" for sure..... I do NOT TRUST THEM AS FAR AS I COULD THROW THEM :trust:
I MAY be tempted to divulge why I feel the way I do........
They got you bang to rights for the Brinks-Mat job?
The police - you get a uniform- you get power - it is quite well paid and you retire early with a good pension. So it does attract exactly the sort of people who really should not be policing the rest of us. We have all had run-in's with these little Hitlers from time to time but I would not tar them all with the same brush. I think Dave's assertion that this one case gives the cops carte blanche to shoot to kill is over the top. Shame they did not top the two lunatics who hacked a man to death in London a couple of month's back. If it was me I would have nailed them both with head shots as they charged towards me with their machetes. Then a double tap point blank just to be sure.
Just joking.
Or am I...?
In any case if you are worried about a future in which armed police are used to instigate some sort of fascist regime in which any dissenter can be gunned down without consequences the best solution is to allow the general population to own firearms. Sadly, that ship sailed a long time ago.
Looks like another thing we will disagree on, Dave. It was the life he chose, and that is sometimes how it works out. The cops have been shooting innocent people by mistake for years - remember that fella in the mini back in the 'eighties when they put about 50 rounds into the car before realising it was the wrong car, and the wrong man? Or more recently the Brazilian bloke on the tube train?
He was a drug dealer , a gangster, he routinely carried a weapon - tough shit, I say.
You mean Stephen Waldorf and Jean Charles de Menezes , use the victims names not the media soundbite,
I applaud your sentiment Dave
Paul
You mean Stephen Waldorf and Jean Charles de Menezes , use the victims names not the media soundbite,
I applaud your sentiment Dave
Paul
Yes fair enough I could not remember their names - my point was they were innocent and Duggan wasn't so Duggan seems like an odd choice to make a stand over.
Ninanina
08-01-2014, 23:20
They got you bang to rights for the Brinks-Mat job?
Oooops you got me there Joe...... doh... :doh:
Yes fair enough I could not remember their names - my point was they were innocent and Duggan wasn't so Duggan seems like an odd choice to make a stand over.
Dave isn't defending Anybody he is making a stand against the police using deadly force as a means of arrest , at least that was how I read it,
Paul
Ninanina
08-01-2014, 23:25
We have all had run-in's with these little Hitlers from time to time but I would not tar them all with the same brush
It's not so much a 'run-in' that has bothered me.... The dealings I've had with the police have been nothing short of farcical, and unbelievable...truly :eyebrows:
I can only base my attitude towards them on the exposure I've had with them and my findings would make you laugh and cringe... ;) so therefore I now despise them with a passion
Dave isn't defending Anybody he is making a stand against the police using deadly force as a means of arrest , at least that was how I read it,
Paul
I think it unlikely they would shoot him dead unless they felt, rightly or wrongly, that he posed a deadly threat to them. I agree if that was not the case it is a serious cause for concern. However the events in London re Lee Rigby would seem to indicate that armed police are, these days, very reluctant to shoot to kill. Now the inquest is over all the evidence will be available.
The Grand Wazoo
08-01-2014, 23:34
Please bear in mind all, that some of your fellow AoS members may be members of the police force - and remember that this is a community where we expect civility and respect.
It's not so much a 'run-in' that has bothered me.... The dealings I've had with the police have been nothing short of farcical, and unbelievable...truly :eyebrows:
I can only base my attitude towards them on the exposure I've had with them and my findings would make you laugh and cringe... ;) so therefore I now despise them with a passion
I can well believe it both from my own experience and those of people I know. But I would not tar them all with the same brush. The nature of the job is that it attracts arseholes. I've known a few decent coppers who agree with me. Not sure what can be done about that, though.
Well given this was the jury's decision, I'm assuming they have seen more info than the public have been privy to?
Indeed - I appreciate your sentiments Dave, but if I was in a situation where a criminal was known to possess firearms I wouldn't take a chance - even if the officers saw the pistol being thrown from the car it could well have been a decoy (if he has one firearm then very likely he is carrying a back up?) - who knows what happened- probably not even the jury, as I am sure stories were corroborated - but one thing is for sure - "live by the sword - die by the sword" - whatever side you are on, and no matter how morally repugnant people may find it...
Dave isn't defending Anybody he is making a stand against the police using deadly force as a means of arrest , at least that was how I read it,
Paul
Exactly. I expect this verdict will be overturned pretty damned quickly because the authorities are on a very sticky wicket here. I am not defending Duggan, it is the precedent that this verdict sets which is disturbing...
Stratmangler
08-01-2014, 23:43
Exactly. I expect this verdict will be overturned pretty damned quickly because the authorities are on a very sticky wicket here. I am not defending Duggan, it is the precedent that this verdict sets which is disturbing...
It must be difficult climbing the stairs to the top of your ivory tower.
Indeed - I appreciate your sentiments Dave, but if I was in a situation where a criminal was known to possess firearms I wouldn't take a chance - even if the officers saw the pistol being thrown from the car it could well have been a decoy (if he has one firearm then very likely he is carrying a back up?) - who knows what happened- probably not even the jury, as I am sure stories were corroborated - but one thing is for sure - "live by the sword - die by the sword" - whatever side you are on, and no matter how morally repugnant people may find it...
As do I understand your sentiments Alex and the sentiments of those who don't agree with me but we live in a Democracy not a Feudal state, the latter being a state which allows the taking of an eye for an eye...
As do I understand your sentiments Alex and the sentiments of those who don't agree with me but we live in a Democracy not a Feudal state, the latter being a state which allows the taking of an eye for an eye...
No, we live in a feudal state pretending to be a democracy. But that is a whole different argument ;)
It must be difficult climbing the stairs to the top of your ivory tower.
That is unfair Chris, the state needs to be seen to be morally correct and in this instance it has not been IMO. It is a step down a slippery slope where ultimately we end up with the equivalent of Judge Dread...
No, we live in a feudal state pretending to be a democracy. But that is a whole different argument ;)
Maybe another day, eh? :D
Stratmangler
09-01-2014, 00:00
That is unfair Chris, the state needs to be seen to be morally correct and in this instance it has not been IMO. It is a step down a slippery slope where ultimately we end up with the equivalent of Judge Dread...
I certainly wouldn't think twice about squeezing the trigger with a known armed criminal in my sights.
Those who do usually end up being planted in a hole in the ground.
It's not a matter of state, it's simply one of survival, and Police Officers on the ground determined that they were not going to be carried back to base in a body bag.
Duggan chose the sword, and he died by it.
It's irrelevant that he threw the weapon away prior to being shot - he was armed just moments before, and he might well have had another firearm concealed.
What would your opinion have been had you and yours happened to get caught in the crossfire of Duggan going about his "business"?
Exactly. I expect this verdict will be overturned pretty damned quickly because the authorities are on a very sticky wicket here. I am not defending Duggan, it is the precedent that this verdict sets which is disturbing...
I doubt it Dave, remember the Harry Stanley inquest, judicial revue, high court intervention fiasco
Paul
I once represented a fool who decided to chase away a policeman with an axe. No harm was done, he had no intention of actually using it, rather it was a threat only. In the result he was sentenced to 1 year of porridge. The Policeman's evidence was that he had he been armed he would have shot him dead. Of course the client did not deserve to die, he was stupid rather than evil and we have all done daft things. I for example in a period of temporary insanity proposed marriage - the consequences of this utterly inexplicable brain hemorrhage have been catastrophic.
losenotaminute
09-01-2014, 07:32
The UK is fairly unusual as an 'advanced' economy in not regularly arming its police. This kind of incident is, thankfully, very rare. In my view those best placed to judge are those involved in the trial, and it appears that they don't think the police officers are guilty. Are people suggesting that the jury should have been instructed to find the police officer who fired the fatal shot guilty of murder, despite the evidence to the contrary? That isn't the kind of society I would want to live in.
The police put their lives on the line on a daily basis to keep us safe from criminals. I appreciate some people's political views aren't in accord with the current Government but please don't play politics with issues of this nature.
Lawrence
IMO part of this and other similar problems is the general decline of respect amongst the population for 'authority' in any of it's forms. Once upon a time, and yes, I am old enough to remember, very few, if any, people doubted what they were told by 'authority', be it Parliament, Police, medical doctors, local councils, juries or Coroner's Courts etc. etc.. This lack of respect has been fuelled by the many and various failings coming to light in recent years where it has become obvious that not all their actions have been motivated by what was in the interest of the public concerned.
In a proper democracy (unlike ours, IMO) you govern and police with the consent of the people - once 'the people' realise that this is no longer the case, respect for them drains away.
To strike a more discordant note, add into this failing scenario increasing numbers of the population coming from other countries where respect for authority has never been a major attribute and the potential for such events as we are discussing here increases even more.
I have close relatives with long histories of employment in the Police service and the Fire and Rescue service and I have great respect in general for the jobs they do on our behalf so I am not 'anti' such people. Basically, when those at the lower levels of society see those at the top of society abusing their powers (fill in your own examples here), there is perhaps little wonder that respect for authority is declining.
Just my opinion :) ,
Dave.
IMO part of this and other similar problems is the general decline of respect amongst the population for 'authority' in any of it's forms. Once upon a time, and yes, I am old enough to remember, very few, if any, people doubted what they were told by 'authority', be it Parliament, Police, medical doctors, local councils, juries or Coroner's Courts etc. etc.. This lack of respect has been fuelled by the many and various failings coming to light in recent years where it has become obvious that not all their actions have been motivated by what was in the interest of the public concerned.
In a proper democracy (unlike ours, IMO) you govern and police with the consent of the people - once 'the people' realise that this is no longer the case, respect for them drains away.
To strike a more discordant note, add into this failing scenario increasing numbers of the population coming from other countries where respect for authority has never been a major attribute and the potential for such events as we are discussing here increases even more.
I have close relatives with long histories of employment in the Police service and the Fire and Rescue service and I have great respect in general for the jobs they do on our behalf so I am not 'anti' such people. Basically, when those at the lower levels of society see those at the top of society abusing their powers (fill in your own examples here), there is perhaps little wonder that respect for authority is declining.
Just my opinion :) ,
Dave.
Spot on +1 :thumbsup:
I'd just like to state for the record that my OP was not politically motivated in the slightest, I would feel the same way regardless of who was in power.
I don't believe for one instance that the moment the police spotted Duggan that they had it in their minds that the incident would end up with him in a body bag. I would imagine that a senior officer was at some point contacted with the information that Duggan was indeed armed and with his criminal history he was perfectly capable of firing at the officers. At this distance we can only speculate what was in those officer's minds when confronting a known armed killer. Would there be such a public outcry if it was somebody like Ian Huntley who got plugged that day? Maybe not. Yes there SHOULD be grave concerns when people like Menendez are gunned down, because "tragic incidents" like him will continue regardless but that does not mean we apprehend people like Duggan with a feather duster, either to compensate or to prevent further accidental shootings.
The great unwashed public would happily see the likes of Ian Brady dangling on the end of a rope to save the taxpayer's money because he thought nothing of killing, but what puzzles me is the obscene amount of "hero worship" Duggan has generated when he also thought very little of taking other's lives. It matters not to me whether the people he killed were from the criminal or gangland fraternity or innocents, or he loved and honoured his mother, murder in cold blood cannot be condoned and the law must be upheld - to protect us all.
Conversely, I would certainly take a night stick to the violent drunks that blight our town centres at night and I take my hat off to the officers who can tolerate being sworn at, spat at, assaulted and abused by these low-lifes who don't deserve the restraint they are shown. Nor do I envy the officers who have to knock on a door late at night to tell a family they are currently scraping a car of a tree and their offspring is being scraped off it too.
In the great scheme of things the verdict of Lawful Killing matters not because the man is dead and no verdict will bring him back to life. Will it change policing strategy and tactics for the better? Nope.
The police have their own set of concerns they need to face on a daily basis, ranging from "meeting targets", chronic staff shortages, to having their budgets cut to the bone and devious ways of forcing them out of their jobs so the pensions they are looking forward to may not be there when they retire. Budget cuts may mean they may have to race to an incident on a bicycle, nip into a phone box to make a call to ask for back up, sign a chitty with senior authorisation before they can get a single bullet to shoot anyone anyway.
The bottom line is society gets the police force it deserves. When society (and politicians) has no respect for it's police, then the police in turn have no respect for the public it serves.
Finally, he is a personal :finger: from me for the :wanker: who gave me a ticket for not wearing a seat belt last year when in fact I was wearing it :steam: Jumped up little twat the police force could well do without to improve their standing in my book :lol:
Ali Tait
09-01-2014, 16:17
Did you take it to court Frank?
Did you take it to court Frank?
I was spitting mad at the time and felt like challenging it.
I didn't, for two reasons:
1. There was two police officers and my lone word against their two wouldn't count for much.
2. My missus didn't want me to get all stressed over it so she paid the fine.
Ali Tait
09-01-2014, 18:10
I was spitting mad at the time and felt like challenging it.
I didn't, for two reasons:
1. There was two police officers and my lone word against their two wouldn't count for much.
2. My missus didn't want me to get all stressed over it so she paid the fine.
Bummer. I'd have been fuming too.
IMO part of this and other similar problems is the general decline of respect amongst the population for 'authority' in any of it's forms. Once upon a time, and yes, I am old enough to remember, very few, if any, people doubted what they were told by 'authority', be it Parliament, Police, medical doctors, local councils, juries or Coroner's Courts etc. etc.. This lack of respect has been fuelled by the many and various failings coming to light in recent years where it has become obvious that not all their actions have been motivated by what was in the interest of the public concerned.
In a proper democracy (unlike ours, IMO) you govern and police with the consent of the people - once 'the people' realise that this is no longer the case, respect for them drains away.
To strike a more discordant note, add into this failing scenario increasing numbers of the population coming from other countries where respect for authority has never been a major attribute and the potential for such events as we are discussing here increases even more.
Dave.
+2
In NZ it used to be the case that it was only the lower end of society that disrespected the courts and police but nowadays it is rare to find someone in the middle classes that does.
archiesdad
10-01-2014, 20:11
Along with some here, my view is that if he had a gun (and seemed to likely to do so) then he got what was coming, one less threat on the streets, it's just a pity a strong arm tactic wasn't taken with the scum who rioted/looted across the country in the following nights. The criminal fraternity seem to think that in this country we're so soft on punishment that there is no/little deterrent.
Strange isn't it that when the family get air time the person spoken about was always a good guy-loved his mum-kind to animals etc and that there was no way that they would hurt a fly let alone another human being and have been wronged.
I'm an ex-miner and saw the strike out in 84/85(actually + an extra week) and at times didn't have a lot of time for the police, but times change, remember all you police haters, if your house is broken into, your family attacked, or any crime committed against you, just who are you going to call.?
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 20:16
Ghostbusters! :lol:
Ghostbusters! :lol:
:rfl:
The Black Adder
10-01-2014, 20:24
HAHAH!... Ahh.. that's better!
walpurgis
10-01-2014, 20:30
Duggan was a known, lowlife, scumbag, criminal and what the hell was he about to do with the gun he'd been carrying. The police had no way of knowing if that was his only weapon and with the speed of events, probably could not be certain whether he was able to shoot at them. If it was me, I would not mess about, anybody who I thought might shoot me would have to be taken out immediately. Can't say I'm desperately keen on our police, as I've seen them do shitty stuff, but the country would be like The Wild West without them.
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 20:38
I remember talking to a South African engineer who'd emigrated over here with his family a few years ago to work for Yorkshire Electric. First time I'd met him, and we got chatting as I lived over there as a child. I asked him what prompted the move, and he said, " Well, it was after the third time I'd been shot at when I was walking along the beach"
Says it all really.
Gordon Steadman
10-01-2014, 21:11
I think we tend to forget that 'those in authority' are nothing of the sort. Public servants, including judges, the police and politicians are there to represent us 'the people' and we choose the ones we think we want occasionally.
They are paid to uphold the laws that should be designed to protect our individual rights and freedoms. I therefore expect to offer them the same respect and no more, that I offer any other human being.
The police however, clearly have a difficult job to do. There are no doubt good and bad in there as there are in any group of people. Guns appear to becoming more common and it is inevitable that their use will be answered by having to arm those given the job of representing our freedom to live our lives without threat of violence.
I hate killing our chickens but I'm damn sure that if I was faced by a known criminal who, it has been agreed by a jury, thought nothing about using a weapon, I would shoot first and ask questions afterwards. If he was intentionally killed or the officer had been aiming to wound I don't know. I doubt anyone can know for sure.
One thing I do know is that I won't lose too much sleep worrying about another gun happy cretin being removed from the streets.
I remember talking to a South African engineer who'd emigrated over here with his family a few years ago to work for Yorkshire Electric. First time I'd met him, and we got chatting as I lived over there as a child. I asked him what prompted the move, and he said, " Well, it was after the third time I'd been shot at when I was walking along the beach"
Says it all really.
Back when I was slogging my guts out for £2.50 an hour in a cold storage warehouse there was a South African bloke there doing the same shift as me (7am to 8pm). He had run a landscape gardening business back in SA. After he finished his shift he went straight to another warehouse and did 9pm to 2am then back home to sleep for 4 hours before starting again. I asked him why he had quit SA and he said the clincher was driving home when he was ambushed and had his pick up peppered with 7.62 mm. He put his foot down and got through but that was enough for him and he was concerned about what might happen to his wife and kids at home when he was at work. So he gave a up a lovely detached house, successful business and came to the UK.
Ashamed to be British? Nah. With all it's petty faults this is still one of the best countries in the world to live in, that is why immigration is so high. And who can blame them?
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 21:33
Exactly. People who moan about this country haven't lived anywhere else. Is it perfect? No. But it's a damn sight better than a lot of the alternatives.IMHO.
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 21:35
And it's even better north of the border.. :D
walpurgis
10-01-2014, 21:42
And it's even better north of the border.. :D
What, from England into Wales is it Boyo? :)
And it's even better north of the border.. :D
Yorkshire you mean surely? :lol:
RobbieGong
10-01-2014, 21:44
Exactly. People who moan about this country haven't lived anywhere else. Is it perfect? No. But it's a damn sight better than a lot of the alternatives.IMHO.
Yeah, that's what I feel. Every where has it's problems no matter how good it seems when you go on hols ! The UK is multi cultural, so diverse and the mass majority rub shoulders and embrace that diversity. I have met some amazing and lovely people of every persuasion at work, out and about, my neighbours and it's wonderful how you realise that at the end of the day people are people, good and bad in all races, so much love and genuine niceness in all races which is very much reflected in the UK, no doubt about that.
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 21:45
Yep, can't argue with that!
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 21:48
Yorkshire you mean surely? :lol:
Aye well, spent 20 years in the Socialist Republic, it's a fine place, but it's not God's Country. :lol:
Stratmangler
10-01-2014, 22:00
Aye well, spent 20 years in the Socialist Republic, it's a fine place, but it's not God's Country. :lol:
Just a couple of years ago I'd have agreed and said that Lancashire is God's country, but now you can't move for falling over those feckin' wind turbine eyesores.
Just a couple of years ago I'd have agreed and said that Lancashire is God's country, but now you can't move for falling over those feckin' wind turbine eyesores.
As a Lancastrian I would have to agree. Someone described them as a 'Swastika combined with a crucifix' which is so apt. Although I believe the Jocks have it worst in that regard.
Stratmangler
10-01-2014, 22:07
As a Lancastrian I would have to agree. Someone described them as a 'Swastika combined with a crucifix' which is so apt. Although I believe the Jocks have it worst in that regard.
I believe so.
Alex Salmond views them as some kind of power generating panacea, and it trying to cover all points North of the border with the God forsaken things.
When the money for subsidies runs out they will all be pulled down for scrap. Although apparently UKIP will have them taken down at the owner's expense. We can only hope.
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 22:14
We can indeed. Total waste of time, just a money making exercise from all the subsidies and a government wanting to be seen to be green. Would have been far more practical ploughing the investment into wave and tidal power. We would at least have had a decent return from such.
Ali Tait
10-01-2014, 22:15
And yes, they are a bloody travesty up here - some of the most beautiful hills in the UK have been despoiled by these bloody things.
As it says in the headline, today I am ashamed to be British. The verdict in the Mark Duggan inquiry effectively gives the green light to our authorities to shoot unarmed civilians. Now, there appears to be evidence that Duggan did in fact have a firearm in the taxi however it also states that he threw the firearm out of the window when he realised that a Hard Stop was in progress. At this point he ceased to become a threat to the officers involved in this operation and yet they shot and killed him. I accept that he was not an innocent in this but did he really deserve to die? No, of course not, he should have been brought to justice.
Dave, sorry I'm not ashamed, Duggan was a member of a notorious gang in London, he knew the risks he wasn't some innocent mug. His family also knew the risks so it's no use them or anyone else bleating about what happened.
The only thing I feel ashamed of is how the police try their best to resolve numerous gang related crimes and get little recognition for their efforts. If Duggan's shooting turns more youngsters away from that lifestyle then some good will have come from this mess.
hifi_dave
18-01-2014, 13:12
I heard a friend of Duggan on the radio, attempting to defend him. He said that the Police had observed him buying the gun, which was then put inside a black sock. Apparently, the sock is used to prevent DNA and fingerprints from being on the weapon. The sock disguises the weapon whilst allowing it to be used and also collects the empty shells if fired.
The chosen means of travel is a Taxi, so that if it is stopped and searched, the gun holder can slip the gun, in sock, down behind the seat and claim that it isn't his and must have been placed there by someone else. The friend didn't have an explanation why Duggan got out of the car with the gun instead of putting it down behind the seat.
If he had literally just bought it he probably didn't feel inclined to ditch it so soon. I'm a bit out of touch these days so I can only hazard a guess as to what it would cost to buy such a weapon on the black but it must be close to a grand. Bit of a bummer to have to get rid of it before you have had the chance to even threaten someone with it (whilst holding it sideways, naturally).
losenotaminute
18-01-2014, 13:35
According to the Independent:
"Intelligence in June indicated he had been offered two guns for sale, and he was trying to sell one. Further information made it clear that that Mr Duggan was set to receive a gun from a man called Kevin, but only days before his death did police narrow it down to underworld drug dealer Kevin Hutchinson-Foster.
He was believed to be storing the gun with a woman associate, but that person had not been identified on the day that he died, according to police. DNA evidence later showed that Hutchinson-Foster had used the same gun that he later passed to Mr Duggan to pistol-whip a man at a barber shop in Hackney. But the inquest heard that the victim in that case was unwilling to cooperate and no gun had been mentioned when police investigated that case."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-duggan-was-he-really-armed-were-the-police-under-threat-all-the-key-evidence-9046789.html
I think it was inevitable that Duggan would come to a sticky end and I'm just glad that no police got injured in the process. Apparently Duggan had fathered six children, I can't think of many people who would make worse parents. The gene pool is much better off without that type of low-life IMO.
Lawrence
Floyddroid
27-01-2014, 20:51
Anyhow, Can anyone recommend a good mc cartridge for playing Prog?
losenotaminute
27-01-2014, 20:53
Anyhow, Can anyone recommend a good mc cartridge for playing Prog?
Please, no thread crapping.
Lawrence
starbucksboss
02-03-2014, 14:57
I strongly disagree, our Police should not be judge, jury and executioner otherwise we may as well throw civilisation out the window too... :doh:
Look...civilization is totally overrated!....seriously....the big issue here is not hardware but resources. It is only serious crime that gets any attention ...other very upsetting crime issues are dealt with appallingly ( if at all)
I live in the US now. Clearly far from perfect however even petty crime always results in an officer on scene supporting resolution of ever issue even minor traffic issues. I have lived here now for 10 years and you know - I have never had my car broken into , I have never seen a drunken brawl inside our outside of a bar. It seems to me that its easier to stay out of trouble in the US if you are sensible because the areas where serious issues prevail are very avoidable. I am far from saying its perfect here HOWEVER for normal everyday people because of the extraordinary Police resources normal people are far less touched by petty crime than in UK ( car theft , fights , drunks , yobs , etc...controversial but sadly true)
Anyway...have any of you discovered the Kelly Brolin Band... Awesome!
As it says in the headline, today I am ashamed to be British. The verdict in the Mark Duggan inquiry effectively gives the green light to our authorities to shoot unarmed civilians. Now, there appears to be evidence that Duggan did in fact have a firearm in the taxi however it also states that he threw the firearm out of the window when he realised that a Hard Stop was in progress. At this point he ceased to become a threat to the officers involved in this operation and yet they shot and killed him. I accept that he was not an innocent in this but did he really deserve to die? No, of course not, he should have been brought to justice.
Hate to go all the way back to the OP from a month and half ago, but what has that got to do with being British??
There are plenty of people on this island who act in ways I don't like or seem corrupt or or or but I don't see what that has to do with your own personal identity of coming from a particular part of the world with a particular culture.
It is the same anywhere you go but how often do any of us read the news to this local level when related to another country?
Well given this was the jury's decision, I'm assuming they have seen more info than the public have been privy to?
:exactly:
I've done jury service and was very happy that people were very level headed and even managed to put their vocalised prejudices aside when actually deciding on the verdict based on real principles of justice.
To have a worthy opinion on a case you need to have been following all the evidence, perhaps sat in the public gallery througout.
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