View Full Version : Marco's 'tube rolling' and valve power amp adventure
Aye, maybe underpants but not valves :lolsign:
Marco.
Hmm, I can see I'm going to have to hurt you! ;)
Keeeeep cooooool Bud. There is most definitely a difference between the cryo and non cryo toobz. I'm just getting stuff into perspective! :)
I just like to be sure of what I'm saying rather than talking out of my arse!
TBH, they rock!... but there are are 'Issues' ! (maybe)
Hmm, I can see I'm going to have to hurt you! ;)
Not again daddy, please... :o
Issues? What freakin' issues? :eyebrows: :scratch:
Marco.
Patience son... patience ;)
Ali Tait
08-07-2008, 22:17
Ok,I'll have a go at this.The liang uses an equivalent of the 5881 as a driver valve as supplied.As the said supplied Chinese valves were pretty pants,on the advice of someone who knows far more than me (There's many of those!) I bought some NOS Reflektor 5881's.These were superb!.Being an invererate tweaker in a small way though,I thought I'd try some KT66's after doing some mods to the front end of the amp (I'd been advised to try them from a lad with the same amp-though he neglected to tell me the KT66's he tried were NOS Mullards-rare as hen's teeth).I saw some new-production cryo Tung-Sol 66's for 30 quid on fleabay so I took a punt.These were bloody awful,quite possibly the worst waste I've ever wasted any money type thing on.They not only sounded awful,but on close inspection the build quality was worse than the Chinese valves that were supplied with the amp.Avoid at all costs IMHO!.In fact the Chinese valves sounded better.Equilibrium was restored however with the puchase of some 1950's Tung Sol 5881's.Being too tight to pay the silly NOS prices,I bought a pair of good used and tested examples for 40 quid,and very nice they are too.Not better than the Reflektors,but a have a slightly different presentation,so it's nice to tube roll according to what you're listening to.I love this aspect of valve amps.So the upshot of this ramble I guess is sitick your cryo valves up yer arse!! :) :)
If you cryo'd the 1950's Tung Sol 5881s I bet they'd sound better, providing they survived the ordeal ;)
For me, the cryo process is a no-brainer, not just with valves but with cables and components, too. After having my Yaqin further modified by Anthony I will be sending my Sony DAS-R1 DAC to Mark at Audiocom International to be cryo'd. The results are apparently superb, and Mark is most definitely not a 'foo-foo' merchant :)
Marco.
So the upshot of this ramble I guess is sitick your cryo valves up yer arse!! :) :)
No way man.... They're way too wide! ;)
Ali Tait
08-07-2008, 23:34
Well I'm always happy to be proved wrong! I'd be interested in the impressions anyone has of cryo versus non cryo of the same make/type/date of NOS valves.Can't help being a little sceptical,but I'm open-minded.
Ali Tait
08-07-2008, 23:35
Mike,is that your flares you're talking about?? :) :)
Ali,
Well I'm always happy to be proved wrong! I'd be interested in the impressions anyone has of cryo versus non cryo of the same make/type/date of NOS valves.Can't help being a little sceptical,but I'm open-minded.
I'm open-minded, too, and don't doubt what you've heard.
I can only judge on what I've heard so far - maybe it's different with NOS valves because they were built properly in the first place, i.e. the anode materials were better and don't benefit from 'de-stressing' from cryo treatment in the way those do used in new stock valves.
However when comparing non-cryo'd 'Winged C' Svetlana KT88s to cryo'd versions bought from Anthony TD the difference was very marked indeed with the cryo'd versions giving much more air and space around voices and instruments and tonally having less of a pronounced 'signature' than before - bass was tighter and deeper, midrange more open and expressive, and treble lost some 'zing' which had previously manifested itself on the music giving an artificially forward presentation.
Basically, the cryo treatment brought the performance of the Svetlanas so close to that of NOS 1950s GEC KT88s (which I've heard before and loved) as to make the difference irrelevant considering the huge difference in cost. What I love about NOS valves, certainly those that I've experienced so far, is that tonally they just sound 'right' - there is little if any emphasis on any part of the frequency range, and this gives music a beguilling vibrancy and realism which is totally absent in new stock valves.
Cryo treatment achieves a similar effect and helps give new stock valves some of the magic of NOS... :)
One other thing, you need to make sure that any cryo'd valves you're listening to are genuine and have actually received cryo treatment! There are some dodgy dealers and Ebay sellers in particular who will think nothing of selling ordinary valves as cryo'd. Only buy cryo'd valves from someone you can trust. Anthony is perfect in that regard because everything is tested before he sells it to his customers.
Marco.
Ali Tait
09-07-2008, 17:19
Aye,good point Marco.They were suspiciously cheap for cryo at 30 quid a pair.Saying that the contruction looked pants to me,they were really badly made so I think they would have been pants whether cryo'd or not.
anthonyTD
09-07-2008, 22:29
Aye,good point Marco.They were suspiciously cheap for cryo at 30 quid a pair.Saying that the contruction looked pants to me,they were really badly made so I think they would have been pants whether cryo'd or not.
hi ali,
you have a point, and i agree, there are only [imho] a few of the current production valves that are worth treating, one is of course the original winged C svetlana KT88, which i rate highly on build and construction, they are treated here in the uk by frozen solid, a reputable company with many high end customers. i have explained in earlier posts why i decided to stock and promote cryo-treated valves,[check back] and as stated i am not into snake oils, and therefore before committing myself i had my own cryo tests carried out by an independant company that undertakes projects for the MOD, so i could be sure the process was done correctly before i evaluated its merits.
what i heard and saw in test measurements convinced me that the process[when carried out correctly] does indeed work!
anthony...:)
Btw, what difference did you hear with the cryo'd Svets?
Marco.
Oh, now that is a tricky question to answer properly!
The Gold Lions - Couldn't say, I don't have any non cryo versions of these. Either way, I don't think they are as nice sounding as the standard Svetlana's, they can be a bit better at certain times e.g. acoustic guitar has a bit more body. It would be fair to say they sound 'darker' I think.
Svetlana's - This is where it gets tricky! There are believers and non believers, and there are people like me who've been 'sitting on the fence'. I've used them for several weeks now and find I have to get off the fence on the side of the believers - They ARE an improvement but it's hard to describe, the cryo treatment seems to bring out 'more' without actually changing the character of the valves. More air, more detail, more texture and a bit more extension. Some have said the difference is not subtle but I have to disagree with that, I think it IS subtle but in an obvious (does that make sense?) and worthwhile way.
A caveat! - The valves I have came in a different box (and have the older small logo on the glass) to the ones which were supplied with my WD88 so, while I'm not comparing apples with oranges, I MAY be comparing Granny Smiths with Golden Delicious if you see what I mean. Having said that though, I can see absolutely no other difference between the two types; they seem to be of identical construction.
The untreated Svetlana's as supplied by WD are still excellent valves and are considerably less expensive at about £36.50 each.
However! - The cryo valves will most definitely be staying right where they are thank you very much! I'm more than happy to recommend them to anyone. :)
Cheers,
Mike
Well, after much contemplation and chin-stroking I've decided to abandon the Yaqin-modifying route and buy this rather lovely Copper beauty designed from the ground up by Anthony of Tube Distinctions, shown here :):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=527
Basically, considering what I've spent to date on the Yaqin, and what I'd have to spend again to have it the way I want it, it made sense just to go for a 'proper' valve amp and be done with it. This one is 30W pure Class A, and has got hand-wound bespoke mains and output transformers, point-to-point internal solid copper wiring, 'rare as a hard-on in a nunnery' NOS Brimar CV1988 driver valves, NOS Mullard CV1377 rectifier valves, NOS Plessey capacitors and Vishay resistors, so it's rather sexy! Once I've treated myself to a nice matched quad of NOS GEC KT88s I'll be done :eyebrows:
Needless to say the Copper amp sounds absolutely stunning with the Croft! Full write-up and rationale behind the purchasing of the Copper amp (comparing it to the modified Chinese amps) to come in the 'Blank Canvas' section early next week after some further listening to the AOS/TD amps on Monday!
Meanwhile, valve-wise, I've just taken delivery of these NOS 1958 Brimar CV1985s from the States for use in the Croft:
http://www.tubemonger.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=638A
Bloody amazing valves and *so* much better than the Mullard ECC35s they've replaced - they're just more natural and neutral sounding, and remove the 'boom 'n' tizz' factor which ECC35s are in my experience prone to adding.
All in all, Marco is a very happy bunny! :gig:
Marco.
Well, after much contemplation and chin-stroking I've decided to abandon the Yaqin-modifying route and buy this rather lovely Copper beauty designed from the ground up by Anthony of Tube Distinctions.
Ah, now we're talking! ;)
You approve then, mansab? :smoking:
Marco.
Yes indeed.... I suspect it's beyond my price range though? :( The chassis alone is a work of art!
Go on, giz a clue. (PM if you like)
Mmmm... I'm not sure it would be sporting of me to mention that sort of information here. PM on the way! :)
I'm reliably informed that the chassis alone would cost approx £600 to produce. It's 3mm solid copper. The amp in total weighs around 4 stone.
Marco.
Last edited by anthonyTD : Today at 10:31 PM.
Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't far out :lolsign:
Marco.
Mikey,
Have a look at this awesome site for NOS valves. I've got my eye on a few Christmas presents to myself... :eyebrows:
Check out the 6SN7s/CV1988s (just do a search) :wow::
http://www.natubes.com/
Marco.
Marco,
Personally I think those prices are highly inflated especially for part used. Can I suggest you contact Rob who trades on ebay as 'valvesetc'. He's not got listings at present but contact him, give my compliments and let him know what you want. You could be pleasantly suprised :)
Best wishes,
Greg
Absolutely I will, Greg. Cheers!
Marco.
Just a small update...
The TD Copper amp originally came with NOS GEC KT88s, but as it was mistakenly reported to me that they had "gone soft" with 1000s of hours of use (even though they still measure full output) I hadn't bothered trying them in the amp and instead had used my Cryo'd Svetlanas from the Yaqin.
Well after putting the GECs in at the weekend and listening to them extensively I can report most categorically the opposite - they have not "gone soft" at all; in fact they sound bloody amazing and are undoubtedly the best KT88s I have ever heard!
Consequently I now have no urgent need to buy a new set of GECs, although I'm sure that a brand new unused set would be better still, but that can wait for a little longer yet. I would urge anyone with the necessary funds (around £600-800) who runs a KT88 P/P amp to invest in a set of NOS GECs. They just have a different, more natural, effortless, sound than any other KT88s available.
I will attempt to describe the difference more eloquently later...
Right now I'm off to play more tunes!
Marco.
Just a further word then on the GECs...
The difference between them and any other KT88s I've used, including the excellent cryo'd Svetlanas, is quite significant.
I had expected the GEC KT88s to sound sweeter and perhaps more 'romantic' sounding than their modern counterparts, as many NOS valves do, but it's the exact opposite. Sure, they remove any hint of edge or 'grain' from the sound but they do so also by making the sound tighter, 'harder', more immediate, and 'bigger', but not bright in any way. Silences are 'blacker', which allows music to emerge naturally and 'breathe' more. Dynamic impact is significantly increased such that voices and instruments are projected into the room with so much verve, intensity, and 'attack' that one gets the feeling they're hard-wired to the speaker's voice coils. Anyone who's experienced what a Decca London cartridge does in the midrange will know exactly what I mean.
Tonally, bass is tighter and deeper, the top end is sweet as nut, having seemingly endless extension and incision, and the midrange... Oh my, that it something quite special. The GECs 'coat' female vocals in particular with a beguiling 'creamy' quality, the rendition of which caresses your ears with a velvety sumptuousness, eking out every last nuance and inflection in voices to allow performers their own individual acoustic space within the listening environment. Consequently, one is left with little sense whatsoever that the music is recorded and not real.
Make no mistake, the GECs are special. This is no audiophile 'tweak' where effects are at best subtle and often not of sufficient significance to warrant the outlay. What the GECs do is fundamental and gets right to the heart of the music. I can think of no other way of achieving their effect in a valve system by spending similar money elsewhere.
If you see a good pair for sale at a reasonable price, buy with confidence!
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-09-2008, 11:20
hi marco,
again, your observations are accurate, [spot on in fact] although the cryo-treated svetlanas get close, they’re still some way off the capability of the original GECs. it’s just a shame that stocks are being depleted at such an alarming rate lately that be before long the chance for the discerning and even sceptical audio enthusiasts to witness this in their own systems will have long passed as there won’t be any left, and the very few that can be sourced will be so far out of the reach of the everyday audio enthusiast that i fear the only people able to enjoy their capabilities will be the well off's of society.
anthony,TD...:(
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