Turntable needs overhaul. Any recommendations?

[foxysounds]

Hi all and happy new year!

Just recently my turntable (Dual CS505 Mk III) has not been starting when I move the tonearm over the record. Spinning the platter two or three times by hand gets it going and then it plays just as beautifully as ever but I know that sooner or later I'll spin it and it won't start so ...

Does anyone know what the likely cause of this is and whether it's something I can have a go at fixing myself or whether I should leave it to a professional? If it's the latter, can anyone recommend a repairer who will treat this deck with the loving care it deserves and use quality components if any should need replacing? I live on the Essex/Hertforshire border and work in Cambridgeshire so someone in or around those areas would be preferable.

Many thanks!


Simon.

[Audio Al]

Maybe PM HIFI Dave

http://www.radlettaudio.co.uk/contact.html

[StanleyB]

The motor has had its days. That would be my first conclusion based on previous experience.

[Stratmangler]

Vinyl Engine has the service manual - I suggest you go over there and join.
Links from here do not work :(

[mimoser]

the 505 is still in production as 505-4:
http://www.alfredfehrenbacher.de/Dual-Phono/Produkte/43.html
nothing much has been changed technology wise, so spares will be available I suspect …
:)
Michael

[walpurgis]

Hi Simon, I have owned Dual turntables, including versions of the 505. However, rather than spending money on repairs, I'd suggest buying a good Pioneer PL-12D off eBay instead. The Pioneer is a bit more robust and even simpler mechanically and the sound quality exceeds that of the Dual (especially with a better headshell on the rather decent arm). The PL-12D is quite capable of handling some pretty good MC cartridges, which is not something I'd recommend with the Dual.

[chelsea]

Probably cheaper to get another TT.

[PaulStewart]

Hi Simon,

If it is the motor, which is possible, then it may be eneconomical to get it repaired. However have you looked to see if the belt is loose? It could also be that the belt needs cleaning, if that has not been done. First off, try wiping the belt, pulley and platter with a cloth just damp with meths, dry it off and see if that helps. If not see if when the motor is running if you can stop it easily with your light finger pressure, if you can it's probably the motor, if not a new belt could solve the problem. If you're in west London I could have a look at our workshop if you like, drop me a pm

[hifi_dave]

Sounds like the belt to me plus some lubrication to moving parts wouldn't go amiss.

[DSJR]

PL12D sounding better than a 505? Not sure from personal experience in all honesty, despite the obvious differences - both have motor vibration issues and both sound spatially as flat as a pancake!

The 505 may well need the motor bearings lubricating. I remember one or two suffering smelly, over-heating loading/ballast resistors too and didn't know enough to fathom out if it was a motor coil burnout or just stiff motor bearings..

If the motor can be oiled, pitch belts are available as well as drive belts. the very light tonearm is well able to take an Ortofon OM20 stylus in the supplied Dual/Ortofon cartridge body, which is about as far as this deck will go, benefitting surface noise and treble finesse.

Good luck and if it turns out not to be fixable without replacement motor or any parts in the 'supply box,' don't despair, as earlier idler Duals are generally better and far more solidly made, despite obvious root similarities...

[walpurgis]

PL12D sounding better than a 505? Not sure from personal experience in all honesty

Having owned and tinkered with various examples of both Dave, my money is on the Pioneer as being the most capable. The arm is better than the Dual's and a good headshell makes a difference. Granted, there's probably not a lot in it, but I personally prefer the PL-12D. It's a good, honest little TT.

[Beobloke]

I have to say I agree. Much as I'm very fond of the 505 (and the 505-3 is the version to have, IMHO), the PL-12D never ceases to amaze me with its all-round competence every time I listen to one.

[DSJR]

I set up more PL12D's than you lot have had hot dinners, but never listened seriously to it until the 80's and 90's when belt/cartridge/styli upgrades were becoming necessary. Yes, the lateral balance weight was usually removed, we tried different mats, usually of the Rega variety I admit. The arms varied from excellent bearings to sticky/sloppy in the mk2 models and I just couldn't get an interesting sound from one, although the Ortofon FF15E worked very well. Knowing what I do now about ageing cables (on the Techie pre quartz models), I wouldn't be surprised if an exit cable update didn't sort it.

I do agree about the Duals of the 80's era, the metalwork didn't seem as stout and ultra low mass in the arm came well before resonances.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Don't mess about with stuff like Dual 505s and Pioneer PL12s, get over to this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29951-For-sale-alphason-solo-turntable&p=514391#post514391) pronto and bag Nigel's beautiful Alphason!

[foxysounds]

Many thanks, one and all, for the advice.

I started with the easiest thing - I gave the belt a clean as recommended by PaulStewart. I just used warm water as the internet is rife with advice on whether such things as meths and alcohol are good things to apply to a drive belt and as usual no-one agrees. The turntable is 20 years old now and has never had a new belt (or even had it cleaned before) so it seemed like a sensible thing to try.

It does seem to have made a difference. I just attempted to start the turntable 48 hours after last starting it and it did start, albeit after a long pause which made me suspect it wasn't going to :-)

I'm not really interested in buying a different turntable - mainly because anything I buy second hand will likely have similar maintenance issues and I don't want to spend a lot of money as I rarely listen to vinyl nowadays, particularly since buying a Beresford DAC for my digital sources. I suppose I might consider a 505 Mk IV if only because it would be newer (and it must be better right? It's a higher number so it must be better!)

I had a little go to see how easy it was to remove the floating platform and it wasn't easy at all - in fact I didn't manage it - so if this doesn't turn out to solve the problem I'll see if I can find a dealer who will take a look, if that's not prohibitively expensive.

Thanks again,

Simon.

[mimoser]

The 505-4 is no way better than the 505-3, rather the other way around.
:)
as suggested earlier in this thread:
- take off the platter,
- try to stop the motor running with a thumb pressing on top of the motor spindle,
- if this is hard to do, get a new belt either from Germany or a local source.
If need be I will assist in communications, but I suppose they read English as well as any of us.
;-)
Michael

[Qwin]

The advice is all over the place here.

The problem may not be the motor.

You (original post) stated that there is a problem when you place the arm over the record, that the platter does not turn. This model has lots of levers and springs in it relating to the auto start/stop functions, I just looked into the back of one I have and counted 5 levers connecting the arm to the switch. This micro switch is incorporated as part of the start function and sticks out of the corner of the centraly mounted plastic box which contains the transformer.

It may simply be that there is some wear in the mechanism or a dodgy micro switch. Turning the platter a few times may just be advancing the levers or wobbling the micro switch and its contacts and triggering it to work.

You need to get into it to have a look which means lifting the suspended top plate out of the plinth. I don't know why you couldn't do this?
The way to gain access is to make sure the transit screws are fully down in the normal playing position, then press down over one of them to compress the spring and unhook the end of the transit screw fixing by gaining access from the aperture on the underside. Release all of them and the plate just lifts off. No need to remove the platter.

If it does turn out to be the motor, you can sometimes find them on Fleabay, it would probably just be the brushes. I wouldn't spend too much on it as its performance is only fair, I did a fully modded version with all the rattley levers removed, the springs improved and transit screw mechanisms removed and mounted in a better plinth. It is my all time favourite budget deck, but you can buy a better second hand deck for not a lot more which has more potential for upgrading as has been pointed out.

Here is a link to a similar problem and also pictures which might help you understand how to release the top plate. ;)

=http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=21093

cut and paste into yor browser without the = at the front as Vinylengine does not allow hot linking.

[REW]

I have fixed a few Dual decks with this fault - always been the micro switch referred to above and described in the thread Qwin references. Use switch cleaner into the switch and it will work a treat. If not, you have been very unlucky, these 505's tend to last very well.