View Full Version : technics tt advice wanted
The Vinyl Adventure
09-06-2009, 14:38
i have been floating around on this forum for long enough now to notice that people seem to have a little fasination with technics direct drive turntables.
i have read enough for it to have got me intriged
where do i start if i wanted to investigate this myself? what is a good turntable to start fiddleing with?
are there plenty of upgrades than can be made to these type of deck for little money?
is this one of those "great hifi for little cost" things that a certain few people on here seem to get off on?
how much realistically would i need to spend on a project like this for it to outperform my xerxes original/tabriz/oc9/psu 2 (i understand this is subjective and down to many variables but opinions are welcome)
im sure people have gone over this a lot of times on this forum but if people can spare the time to share thier knoledge on the subject with me id be very greatful
A properly working and non-sagging Xerxes is a very good way to play records indeed. An old reviewer friend had one with Arta Xerxes add-on phono stage and the sound from it was always superb, with few if any of the "usual" LP woes of noise, wow and compression. he had thousands of CD's too and never needed to compare as the music came first.
The only way regarding the Technics is to try to get a good cheap one used and take Marco's and Dave Cawley's advice on how to proceed. Don't do anything with the Roksan until you're entirely satisfied that you're doing the right thing.
The main issue is going to be how well the Xerxes is running these days and how well set up it is. It's deceptively simple inside, but there are a few areas that need a skilled hand I gather (I know the Thorens/AR/Systemdek/Linn setup much better). The sagging armboard is an important issue these days and Roksan cannot replace with new parts (Neither can Technics supply parts for their old decks, but I digress).
The thing with the Technics is that spares for this generation won't be a problem for many decades I suspect, the setup seems to stay that way and carefully tweaked and with an even more capable arm fitted (the standard one is fine and surprisingly low mass for such a chunky looking device), it'll equal or better some very serious hardware (I look forward to comparing a certain SL110/SME with a Spacedeck sometime soon ;)).
Hope this helps a bit. Until you've heard one, you won't know if this is the route you wish to take.
Hi Hamish,
I'll get to this later - tied up at the moment. Sadly, though, it has nothing to do with bondage :eyebrows:
Laters,
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-06-2009, 16:52
just to clarify a point, i dont want to replace my xerxes i just want something i can fiddle with without the fear of breaking it. beyond that the queery about cost of getting a sound better than the xerxes was more out of interest.
my xerxes is in need of a tweak but it does sound quite fantastic with the right vinyl
frustratingly i did at one point have a really rough 1200 tt but i, at the time, couldnt see how even with a huge investment it could be made to sound good... so i gave it away
the chap i gave it to has since spent about £80 on it and now its nothing special but it sounds like much more than the £80 he has spent on it... i nearly tried to buy it off him but decided i would look a bit daft
Hi Marco,
I supect that I am not the only one that hopes you respond to Hamish's request on this open thread, as opposed to by PM - the more information that I can glean from you and any other member with something to offer the happier I will be :).
:cool:
before thinking of tweaks, I'd ask this question... If buying new "out of the box," would you have a Techie, a Rega P3 or whatever Pro-ject are making this season?
I'll tell you one thing, although the Rega is a great "sensible" buy and the RB300/301 is legendary with the right deck and cartridge, I know which one I'd go for (and one of it's direct ancestors is up in the office awaiting a mounting plate and arm re-wire).
how much realistically would i need to spend on a project like this for it to outperform my xerxes original/tabriz/oc9/psu 2 (i understand this is subjective and down to many variables but opinions are welcome)
Hi Hamish
I can perhaps answer your question and give you an idea of what you could achieve since my previous setup was very close to yours.
Previous Setup
Roksan Xerxes/SME IV/AT OC9/PSU 2
Phono amp was EAR 834P
Current Setup
Technics SL-1210/Jelco SA250ST/AT 33PTG/TimeStep PSU
Phono amp is PS Audio GCPH
The Xerxes was a good deck with excellent timing, good soundstaging, reasonable dynamics and far less colouration than a Linn. The reason I moved it on was because of the dreaded sag and Roksan's abandonment of support and spares.
You can buy a brand new SL-1210 and, with at least the TimeStep installed, you already have the makings of a very fine deck. I would say the arm comes next and then you're into giant-killing territory. My well-modded 1210 sounds better than I remember my Xerxes ever sounding, especially in dynamic impact and structural bass, but also in the almost holographic presentation. Some of this must be attributed to the excellent Jelco arm, but the 1210 responds very well to different cartridges too. I spent about £1300 on the 1210, arm and PSU. That outlay buys you a lot more turntable than anything else on the market that I can think of. There is also superb warranty, backup and spares availability. You can just keep taking it further with mats, clamps/weights, isolation feet etc. and it keeps on improving.
There's more than just Technics you know ;) Ebay is awash with alternatives some expensive and some not so with the majority being at very reasonable cost if you just want to 'play', there's Denons, Pioneers, Kenwoods etc all worthy of checking out or for real budget thrills try the Lenco (idler wheel)...you never know you just may prefer it over the DD's ;)
There's more than just Technics you know ;)
With the small but important difference that the Technics is still in production.
The Vinyl Adventure
09-06-2009, 22:49
Hi Hamish
I can perhaps answer your question and give you an idea of what you could achieve since my previous setup was very close to yours.
Previous Setup
Roksan Xerxes/SME IV/AT OC9/PSU 2
Phono amp was EAR 834P
Current Setup
Technics SL-1210/Jelco SA250ST/AT 33PTG/TimeStep PSU
Phono amp is PS Audio GCPH
The Xerxes was a good deck with excellent timing, good soundstaging, reasonable dynamics and far less colouration than a Linn. The reason I moved it on was because of the dreaded sag and Roksan's abandonment of support and spares.
You can buy a brand new SL-1210 and, with at least the TimeStep installed, you already have the makings of a very fine deck. I would say the arm comes next and then you're into giant-killing territory. My well-modded 1210 sounds better than I remember my Xerxes ever sounding, especially in dynamic impact and structural bass, but also in the almost holographic presentation. Some of this must be attributed to the excellent Jelco arm, but the 1210 responds very well to different cartridges too. I spent about £1300 on the 1210, arm and PSU. That outlay buys you a lot more turntable than anything else on the market that I can think of. There is also superb warranty, backup and spares availability. You can just keep taking it further with mats, clamps/weights, isolation feet etc. and it keeps on improving.
its nice to hear from someone who has direct experience!
the main issue, as i said , with the current set up is the fear i have of damageing it knowing it will cost a lot to get fixed
and it all seems so fragile!
the daft thing is i dont listen to enough vinyl to invest silly money but with the few hic-ups i have had with the xerxes of late, and in fact since i have owned it... it just feels like its showing its age and if i invest more it might be dead money
so spending a little bit of money now and again on something that, relativly speaking, is cheap to do up and easy to get bits for and isnt going to go out of date,and maybe, might replace the xerxes, when and if i feel its good enough... seems to be the logical thing to do to me....
hence my interest
and in resposnse NRG..... hence my lack of interest in some of the older stuff about.... i have read a bit about the pioneer pl-71 and coincidentally someone emailed me saying that had just got one (done up by richard dunn) today but i wouldnt feel comfortable investing in a deck and then relying scarce second hand bits if something went wrong... after all i have that situation with my xerxes
if this seems off or daft to anyone, or anyone can give me an alternative then let me know... but i genuinly think im on to a good idea here...
.... i just need to know a bit more about directions and prices of things and what is reasonable and what is not etc....
I can understand any reluctance to purchase an older deck, it can be a pot luck experience but the majority where built like tanks and will last the distance even 25 years on... plus the electronics can be repaired (mechanics may be an issue I admit). You said you wanted to 'play' hence my recommendation to look around at the cheaper alternatives on Ebay...have you heard a DD deck before you shell out on a new Techie? If you intend to shut yourself off from all the varied and wonderful old decks out there then I feel you wont know what your missing.....or not! :)
Good luck either way :cool:
Peter Stockwell
10-06-2009, 07:01
I've calmed down from the initial excitement of my SL1210, but it did have me enjoying vinyl again!
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 09:34
just to clarify even more i am not looking to buy a new deck
and have it done up to the point of unrecogniseable without listening to it. i am looking for info on a starting point. i saw a second hand 1210 (i think) go on here for £100 - £120 dependng on bits it came with a month or so back. that sort of investment doesnt seem to much cash to fork out to dip my toes. i just dont know what to look out for or what to pay!
beyond that the question was regarding, if i did like the deck, what might i be spending to get a really good sound
to reiterate again... i already have a superb old deck that can be maintained. im looking for somthing newer that parts are redily available that will give a great sound for good money. from what i have read on here the technics decks seem like a good place to start
im not cutting my self off, im not going to buy one, spunk all over it , do it up and never listen to anything or anyone ever again.... i might not even like the thing... its just that there are a million decks out there with practicly an infinite amout of speculative and subjective info on them. i have narowed it down to the technics because this is the forum i read most info on, where people seem to most share my veiw that there is a place in the world for analog and digital, there seems to be a good interest in the great value for money as aposed to the esoteric and the technics kit seems to create a buzz! just suggesting that there are many
alternatives mearly sets me back to were i was 3 months ago with no clue at all! if you can recomend xyz deck that can be done up with xyz arm etc to sound better than a technics and the parts are as easy to come by and is cheaper and will sound better in the long run with further investment if i chose to do so, then i am genuinly all ears... otherwise your just confusing me more
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 09:38
sorry that came accros so stong worded im having a bad day, i have had a headache for a week and just wanted some straight up info
chris@panteg
10-06-2009, 10:22
Hi Hamish
I would say the 1200 is as good as any way to dip your toes into the DDark side, you can find loads of cheap old DD decks about ,but a 1200 2nd hand in good nick is not so easy.
Here is one i just found looks promising the price looks ok too 'what do you think.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SL-1200-MK2-Hardly-used-very-good-condition_W0QQitemZ300320905662QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?has h=item45ec8559be&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1690|240%3A13 18|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
Hi Hamish,
i have been floating around on this forum for long enough now to notice that people seem to have a little fasination with technics direct drive turntables.
i have read enough for it to have got me intriged
where do i start if i wanted to investigate this myself?
I would suggest reading the archive, particularly this thread (from page 10 onwards only):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201
and here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1023
and here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2200
There is all sorts of info all over AOS regarding the Techy, but IMO those three threads are amongst the best which summarise what it's all about. You need to read them thoroughly from start to finish to fully 'get' the message. Scanning through quickly will only mean that you'll likely miss some of the important stuff, so my advice would be to read them when you've got the time and are in a relaxed frame of mind - open a nice bottle of something, chill out and have a good read... :cool:
The first one contains snippets of discussions from my upgrade path to what I have now with my modified SL-1210. The second thread demonstrates how good a modified SL-1210 compares to a well-specified SP10, which shows that the former is a 'serious' turntable - and lastly, Shuggie's 'blog' highlights his Techy journey and how he wasn't quite 100% satisfied with his deck, citing a Kenwood he preferred, and where I have outlined why that perhaps was the case, and the rationale for my argument.
what is a good turntable to start fiddleing with?
If you're talking about a Techy then it depends on your budget. How much do you have to spend?
are there plenty of upgrades than can be made to these type of deck for little money?
Yes, see threads highlighted above.
is this one of those "great hifi for little cost" things that a certain few people on here seem to get off on?
Not quite sure what you mean. If you mean does a modified SL-1210 offer very high 'sound-per-pound' value and can compete with 'high-end' turntables at many times its price, then yes. If you mean is it simply a cheap option to provide decent sounds, but really no great shakes, because the people who've bought them can't afford any better, then no!
how much realistically would i need to spend on a project like this for it to outperform my xerxes original/tabriz/oc9/psu 2 (i understand this is subjective and down to many variables but opinions are welcome)
For that to happen you'll need all the 'main bits', such as a Time Step PSU, new arm (Jelco, SME or whatever), and some, but not all, of the ancillary items such as mats, etc. One has to be realistic: your Xerxes is a fine T/T, so in no way is a bog standard, or even lightly modified 1210, going to outperform it in all areas. You will hear differences, for sure, but I'm not sure that in this scenario the 1210 would tick all the boxes.
However, if you get all the 'main bits' done, as I've outlined, it will definitely compete with your Xerxes and outperform it in key areas of music reproduction, such as accuracy of timing, pitch, better overall clarity, far superior stability, much better bass, etc.
How much do all these 'main bits' cost? Speak nicely to Dave Cawley about it! :)
im sure people have gone over this a lot of times on this forum but if people can spare the time to share thier knoledge on the subject with me id be very greatful
Hopefully I've gone some way to helping you with the above. I'm sure you'll have other questions though (and perhaps others will to), so just ask! I have a huge amount of experience with tweaking/modifying these decks so I'm in a very good position to help anyone out on this particular subject, and am more than willing to so :smoking:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
10-06-2009, 12:07
Since Marco has highlighted my SL-1210 blog, I would like to stress a few salient points.
The Technics is available new, is outstanding value, and has some outstanding attributes (bass, drive); however to make a new one as good as Marco's involves a not insignificant investment - around £1300 if all of Dave Cawley's mods are applied along with the Jelco arm. That's not particularly cheap in my view, particularly to scratch a DD itch, or to have a bit of fun on the side.
Marco disagrees with me rather vehemently on whether my Tecnoarm is responsible for the Technics' ultimately uninvolving musical performance. What we do agree on (I think) is that the standard arm is easily bettered. I had my Technics arm re-wired by Audio Origami, and splashed out on Sumiko headshells, but still the Tecnoarm humiliated it. Others swear by the standard arm, which only serves to show us that we are all different. What's good for me is not necessarily good for Marco or anyone else.
The shocker for me is how good an old Kenwood KD-770D DD deck that I picked up in Germany is, when fitted with the Tecnoarm. There's a long line of Kenwood DDs that use the same corian-block DD motor unit, but in different plinths and with different arms. The most sought after are the ones with a cast alloy spider chassis; however mine is chipboard and it sings like the proverbial angel! Even more so with a Paul Hynes PSU fitted (which is back with Paul for the moment for some adjustments). It is a concert pianist to the Technics' Pianola.
So, for anyone wishing to have a bit of fun fiddling with DD decks, the Technics is the safest bet and the most easily procured (eg new), easily tweaked and upgraded, if not in my view the best overall value. Many are entirely happy with the Technics, but do look at other Jap DDs which are probably better value. I rate the Kenwoods, and there's a growing Pioneer PL-71 Appreciation Society. Of course, the Technics is very easily sold on for little or no loss, which is nice.
What we need is a good Jap DD bake-off, and I may even host one myself, if only to prove Marco wrong about Rega based arms!;)
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 13:18
ok right i have done exactlay what you told me not to and skimmed through.. i have read a lot of that stuff before and i do get the gist.. there are cheaper options and more expensive ones but the 1210 is a great platform for tweaking and tinkering
i shall continue to read through the info but i think that doing this step by step is going to be easier than trying to digest such a vast quantity of relativly un ordered info
so, poor mugs of aos (mostly marco im guessing) you have inadvertantly volunteered your self to help me.. well done
first step: buying a 1210
i can i think fairly reasonably assume that there a lot of shagged and over used by "dj's" decks out there. so what do i look for, what is a reasonable price to pay and precisely which model should i go for ... mkii?
Shugs has raised some valid and interesting points, which I'll get to later after lunch :)
However, Hamish, in order to give you the best advice in terms of which Technics T/T to buy, I need to know what your overall budget is for this project (I did ask earlier ;)), quite simply because it'll form the basis of which upgrades you'll be able to implement overall.
So how much do you have to spend? Give me some numbers, matey!
If you absolutely have to go for a second-hand one, because that's all your budget will allow, then search Ebay for the cleanest example of a MK II you can find, and one definitely with a non-DJ history.
However, it may be worth bearing in mind that if the Techy you modify ends up outperforming your Xerxes, and (possibly) becoming your main turntable, then it would be far better if it started off its life as a nice, clean, brand-new example, than some tatty old 'dog-eared' thing which you'll only end up selling on later, and then having to transfer all the 'nice bits' you've bought to your new deck.
I tend not to do things on a whim, believing in doing things properly and looking at the long-term bigger picture, so if I were you and you don't have to 'penny pinch', I'd invest in a brand new SL-1200 or 1210 MKII (depending on if you prefer black or silver) from one of the many on-line DJ stores, such as here:
http://www.djkit.co.uk/product.php?id=269&highlight=decks
and then start your mods with one of those. Should you then decide to sell it later, you'll not lose much money as Techys are always in demand. But crucially, if things work out well and you're blown away by its performance, you'll have a nice 'sorted', clean deck, and something to be proud of :)
Your call, mate, but let me know how much mullah is burning a hole in your pocket before we go any further :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
10-06-2009, 13:45
sorry that came accros so stong worded im having a bad day, i have had a headache for a week and just wanted some straight up info
Hope you are feeling better soon hamish.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 14:14
ok.. so i do have to penny pinch... and i am tentative about going balls deep with this straight away so i dunno maybe £150 - £200 as a starting point
long term, ie over the course of the next couple of years i wouldnt be to fussed spending a grand + if i found i was getting the improvements in sound for the money that i would like
i need something to concentrate me tweaking urges on and learn about without spending the major cash it would take to upgrade my amps (the next big step), or indeed anything else major like that
im sure that is a sentiment others on here can understand
i have just concidored another minor hurdle to jump my phono stage is the mc stage option inside my naim nac 82 is that going to be an issue?
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 14:29
Hope you are feeling better soon hamish.
Regards D S D L
cheers, nothing i cant handle in the long run im sure! unfortunately some of the current stresses and strains of life seem to be fundamental in me developing a habit of clenching my teeth without me realising. this is in turn (i think) what is causing the tension headaches in the back of my head im suffering with :steam:
it is all most out of character, im usually very placid, unfortunatly there is no short term output for the current issues ...
thankfully i have the love of a beautiful woman, my hifi and my cameras to take my mind off things so i will im sure pull thruogh
talking crap on here helps too :)
Hamish,
ok.. so i do have to penny pinch... and i am tentative about going balls deep with this straight away so i dunno maybe £150 - £200 as a starting point...
Is that just for the mods alone or for the initial purchase of the deck and the mods together?
If it's the latter, then I'd forget it and wait until you're got more funds to play with. It'll cost at least around £100 to buy a second-hand SL-1200/1210MKII, so that's only leaving you with £100 or so to spend on mods, none of which at that price will allow the Techy to compete with your Xerxes.
If the latter is not really the goal in the short term, and you just want a little project to 'fiddle with', then by all means by a second-hand MKII (or a Denon, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc which Shugs mentioned) and play around with replacement headshells, mats, etc, which will give you a small taste of what the Techy can do. But that's all it'll be, I'm afraid, until you start spending serious money on tonearms and PSUs.
Marco.
P.S I hope you're well soon, too! :)
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 14:44
that was for the deck alone....
i figure... buy the deck.... tinker a bit - get it running up to scratch.... save up anthoer £200-£300 for the first upgrade.... tinker a bit - get it running up to scratch.... save up....
i want to sit with the basic deck for a bit before i start spending cash on it anyway.. hopefully get a feel for the world of dd/tt
as i said if i like what im hearing i wouldnt mind spending £1000 over a longer period of time... its easier to afford than spending the £5000 on the amps that i want
Then get one, Hamish, and go for it as you've outlined :)
What's very important to remember about the Techy is that what you're 'buying into' initially, and largely paying for, is the quality of the motor unit, which IMO is second only to that used in an SP10 or an EMT. Incidentally, there's a reason why the last two were the only D/D turntables which were used professionally by respected (in those days) organisations such as the BBC ;)
In its stock guise an SL-1200/1210 should not be viewed as anything other than a high quality motor unit with some 'freebie bits thrown in' to help you play records. It is most certainly not an audiophile turntable until you start to 'get serious' with it, as I've outlined.
Best of luck, and keep us posted. In the meantime, I'm always on hand (and others here too, I'm sure) to give any advice if you need it :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 14:59
cheers for the help so far but,
sorry, can i just bring you back to the queery about the mc stage in my nac 82
and also if i go for a 1210 mkii 100-200 is ok money to get something of ok quality then?
Yes, your available budget is fine for the purchase of a second-hand SL-1200/1210.
I didn't understand your question about the 82 and your phono stage the first time, so could you explain it a little more clearly? :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 15:27
the phono stage that i currently use is the boards that are installed in my naim nac 82, i dont know what they are exactly but i know they are suitable for the moving coil 0C9 thats on the xerxes
is this going to be a problem if i want to use this with a 1210 for eg this one i have just found http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SL-1210MK2-TURNTABLE-SYSTEM-BLACK-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ120429364257QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?hash= item1c0a264421&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A4|39%3A1|72%3A1690|240%3A13 18|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A200
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 15:39
im not sure how im expecting you to know the answer to that unless you have any direct experience with naim moving coil phono boards as im fairly certain there are a veriety of the things but i guess its with a go
Hi Hamish,
That looks like a nice clean example of an SL-1210 MKII. If I were you, I'd do whatever you can to win it! :)
Regarding the phono boards in your 82, I was once a long-term Naim user, so I'm all too familiar with these.
Providing that you're not changing your OC-9 for an MM cartridge, the situation would be the same with the Techy as it is with your Xerxes. The relevant 'relationship' is with the cartridge and phono stage, not the phono stage and the turntable :smoking:
All you'll need are BNC adaptors to fit to the phono plugs of the Techy so that you can connect them to your 82. I'd imagine you're already doing this with your Xerxes.
Incidentally, I wouldn't say that Naim phono boards were the best match for an OC-9, mainly because they were primarily designed for Linn cartridges, namely the Linn Karma (hence 'K' boards). Naim also did 'S' boards for non-Linn cartridges, so I presume that's what you're using?
Either way, if you want to get the most from your OC-9 I would suggest trying one of the excellent phono stages from A.N.T Audio (reviewed in this month's HFW).
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 16:21
yeah s boards rings a bell... that was what i was unsure about... bnc adapters are in place!
are you saying the 0c9 would go on the techy?
i seem to remember noticing someone else on here had an oc9 with one of those stages.. i cant find it now or where i found them for sale but i seem to remember it being about £800 for that partiucular stage
il let you know how i get on with that deck
are you saying the 0c9 would go on the techy?
Yes! :)
What we need is a good Jap DD bake-off,
I'd be up for a bit of that! :)
Yep, pfm are having one, with a fruitbox thrown in for good measure (:eyebrows:), so why don't we have one, too?
Hamish,
You're not likely to get a cartridge with the Techy, other than perhaps some crap Stanton DJ thing, which will only be fit for the bin. You'll have to fit your OC-9 to the Techy :)
Regarding A.N.T Audio phono stages, Alex Nitikin, the designer, is a member of the forum, so if you want some info just PM him.
It's unquestionably the best affordable non-valve phono stage I've heard!
Marco.
Dave Cawley
10-06-2009, 17:02
I know this is an overt plug, but remarkably it seems Hamish might not have clocked me, click here (http://www.SL-1200-MK2.com) to see more. :kiss:
Regards
:bag:
Dave
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 17:08
cheers dave, you have just answered a question i forgot to ask my self!
the oc9 will go straight on the standard techy arm will it?
twelvebears
10-06-2009, 17:09
Hi Hamish.
I was kind of where you are a few months back (although without such a nice existing deck) when I had a very well sorted and basically mint Manticore Mantra and was just 'DD curious' because our vinyl contained a lot of 12" and 7" singles and changing speed on the Mantra was a pain in the arse.
Before I bought anything I did some snooping and actually came across Dave Cawley's Technics mods section of his Sound HiFi site first. While (at the time) some of the upgrade costs scared me slightly (god knows why, I've spent more that a semi-sorted Techie on speaker cables in the past), it did at least convince me that the deck had serious potential beyond the 'DJ deck' it's normally labeled as.
Some months later, I've got a slightly tweaked deck which outperforms my old Mantra/RB300/GX1042 combo, has still got loads of untapped potential, and which hasn't broken me financially (yet).
I've spent a total of about £600 in addition to the deck itself, which was a brand new Mk5 1210 which had never been assembled but was sold as second-hand because the box had been opened. Cost £325
At the moment my upgrades are:
Audio Origami full rewire, arm tube foam fill and bearing tweak of the standard arm - £140
AT-OC9 from Dave Cawley - £325
Decent mat - £75
Record clamp - £35
Sumiko headshell - £25
So for just under a grand I've got a deck which is not fussy, difficult to live with or use, which sounds pretty damn good, and which still has plenty more to give.
Plus the whole process of getting there has been fun, especially with the generious help of the mob here on AOS.
Oh and before any of that helpful mob say anything, I KNOW I NEED TO STOP SODDING AROUND AND GET A TIMESTEP PSU NEXT!
Steve.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 17:09
........... daves the guy with the oc9 and a.n.t ......
slow hamish, realy slow.....
twelvebears
10-06-2009, 17:32
Indeed he is Hamish, purveyor of all nice Techie things. :-)
And to answer your previous question, as an easy 1st step (as you have it already) the OC9 will work just fine on the stock arm. I would suggest you at least stump up £25 for a replacement Sumiko headshell. The original is really dire and the Sumiko is a worthwhile improvement.
I've also got a used once AT-MG10 headshell http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Vinyl+Accessories/product/Audio-Technica_MG-10_Magnesium_Head_Shell.html which I just didn't get on with that you could have. Marco's convinced it should be an excellent match for the OC9.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 17:45
that sounds like a good idea i guess(what you want for it?), how come you didnt get on with it? marco, can you tell what makes it a good match for the oc9
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 18:17
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=160340607944
anything likely to be wrong with this one based on what he says?
...The shocker for me is how good an old Kenwood KD-770D DD deck that I picked up in Germany is, when fitted with the Tecnoarm. There's a long line of Kenwood DDs that use the same corian-block DD motor unit, but in different plinths and with different arms. The most sought after are the ones with a cast alloy spider chassis; however mine is chipboard and it sings like the proverbial angel! Even more so with a Paul Hynes PSU fitted (which is back with Paul for the moment for some adjustments). It is a concert pianist to the Technics' Pianola.
So, for anyone wishing to have a bit of fun fiddling with DD decks, the Technics is the safest bet and the most easily procured (eg new), easily tweaked and upgraded, if not in my view the best overall value. Many are entirely happy with the Technics, but do look at other Jap DDs which are probably better value. I rate the Kenwoods, and there's a growing Pioneer PL-71 Appreciation Society. Of course, the Technics is very easily sold on for little or no loss, which is nice.
What we need is a good Jap DD bake-off, and I may even host one myself, if only to prove Marco wrong about Rega based arms!;)
Indeed! I read good things about the Kenwoods before and now have a KD750 in transit along with a (current 'rave') PL-71...should be interesting if they arrive in one piece to compare against my SP10 and Lenco...
twelvebears
10-06-2009, 18:48
Hamish.
I'd say that it looks like an ideal starting point if you can bag it for less than say £200?
As for the headshell, it has a series of fixed headshell mounting holes and I wasn't convinced that I could get it aligned properly, but Dave C (who knows far more than I) seems to think that it's fine so it's probably just me.
PM me, as this isn't the place for discussing sales and such.
The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2009, 18:57
neal, please accept my apologees for such a sh1ty message this morning, i was not my usual self and i apreciate you wereonly trying to provide a usefull opinion
Hamish, before you start believing chapter and verse about "the stock arm and especially the headshell are crap!" line, just stand back and look at things from the 1200 tweakers here.
When I picked up my bits and bobs recently, I was offered the bits of a 1200 arm. It's extremely light in weight, as is the supplied headshell. Fine for decent mm's of the Ortofon and AT variety and possibly the DL304 as well, but Marco and others use DL103's and siblings which need something heavier.. The OC9 and 33PTG should be a great match to the standard arm I reckon (£25 for a Sumiko headshell is peanuts in the wider scheme of things).
My experience as a one-time dealer for the old Fruitbox still tells me that the turntable mods and upgrades (mats, feet, supplies etc) will further improve the standard arm until it's ready to be replaced. To be honest, if you stick with an AT MC cart, you may not need to change the arm at all. if you wish to use a Denon 103 (or heaven forbid, an M3D :D then a massier arm would be essential). Replacing the ouput cables would be a good idea, although I'd be very surprised if the internal wires are truly rubbish - I understand the latest version (mk6) of the deck has better internal wiring..
Regarding using a Rega derived arm on an Sl1200 series, I'm wondering if an MDF or fibreboard "plate" might not be better than metal in this application, as it may just dissipate energy travelling down the arm.
twelvebears
10-06-2009, 19:10
Personally I agree with Dave, I don't think the standard arm is crap (though I do think the headshell is poor, just a look at the rough casting is enough), but the stock wiring (especially the trailing phono leads) isn't great.
To prove the point, J7 at Audio Origami (who knows a thing or two about tonearms) was actually quite complementary about the level of engineering in the standard item, which is why I've stuck with it for the time being.
To use J's words, the bearings (in my arm at least) were 'spot on'. Which doesn't sound totally hopeless.
I certainly won't be changing it until I can go for a Terminator arm.
The arm bearings of better Technics arms have always been decent quality and well adjusted, having low friction and no slop. Using a very low compliance cartridge will raise the main resonance up into the lowest bass region and this will affect the sound badly.
Mmmm... I think I'm going to have to differ here slightly regarding the Technics arm.
Ok, first of all, Dave and Steve are right - the bearings are very good, so no worries on that score, but the problem is that the armtube is quite resonant and not terribly well damped (resulting in a 'peaky' quality to midrange frequencies - most noticeable on female vocals, etc), although this will be less of an issue with an MM cartridge. The headshell is crap for use with anything else other than a Stanton DJ cartridge, the quality of the internal wiring and tonearm cable are not the best, and the counterweight balance is not optimised for use with MC cartridges.
The only way to get good performance from the stock Technics arm when using a moving coil is to have it completely rewired by KAB or Audio Origami, fit the KAB fluid damper, a Sumiko headshell (or similar), and have J7 make up a custom-made brass counterweight balance to suit the mass of the cartridge/headshell combo you're using.
Trouble is, after you've paid for all that lot, you're about three quarters of the way to buying a Jelco, which has none of those problems! ;)
Furthermore, either of the Jelco arms which Dave sells murders the Techy arm even when fully modified as above. So my advice, as far as the stock arm is concerned, is only to keep it if you're using an MM cartridge, where it will perform very well, as that is what it was designed to be used with. There are some very good MM cartridges currently on the market; the best of which IMO are the new range from Nagaoka. These are quite superb. Some of the Pickerings available are also very good.
Hamish, to answer your question, the AT MG-10 that Steve's got is ideal for the OC-9 because it has less mass than the Sumiko (weighing 10g, as opposed to the 12g of the Sumiko). The OC-9 doesn't like heavy headshells, as using one affects its 'light and airy', punchy, dynamic presentation, making it instead rather 'leaden' and 'thick' sounding. Also, the MG-10 is constructed from Magnesium, which IMO is the best material for headshells due to its high damping factor and vanishingly low levels of resonance. The SME V tonearm is not made out of Magnesium for nothing...
Marco.
Spectral Morn
11-06-2009, 00:02
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=160340607944
anything likely to be wrong with this one based on what he says?
If he sends it packed like his photos show, its likely to arrive smashed....
Most people don't know how to disassemble and pack any TT......:doh:
I had a look down my local Cash Converters, still only pairs with mixers .....patience...patience. :smoking: If I get one and thats a big IF, I will put a Graham 2.2 on it. How would that work Marco ?
Regards D S D L
Hi Marco, have you ever had a look or listen to the Mk5's magnesium armtube? Is it solid magnesium or just mag-plated? Is it an improvement on the std arm in any way? (no-one seems to mention it much...)
chris@panteg
11-06-2009, 09:42
Mmmm... I think I'm going to have to differ here slightly regarding the Technics arm.
O
Trouble is, after you've paid for all that lot, you're about three quarters of the way to buying a Jelco, which has none of those problems! ;)
Marco.
Marco i believe you are dead right about the arm ' which is why i have only got the Sumiko (£29) and some Van Damme leads (£13) which BTW is a great upgrade on the stock leads 'it did take weeks to burn in though.
But i have no intention of spending anymore on the arm i think Dave said something like ' its just fiddling while Rome burns ' .
I am just going to wait until i can go for the Jelco 750 or maybe the 250st but the 750 i think is the one i want:smoking:.
neal, please accept my apologees for such a sh1ty message this morning, i was not my usual self and i apreciate you wereonly trying to provide a usefull opinion
No problem. We all have crap days, hope you feel better soon.
Anybody know the best place to buy a Sumiko headshell? Seen it advertised for $50 and also £29...
twelvebears
11-06-2009, 10:43
I know Jonny at Audio Origami wasn't completely anti the stock Mk5 arm and he believed the foam fill would help address some of the resonance issues.
The bottom line is that you can tweak it a bit to improve things to a point, but eventually you run into the 'Max Power' situation where getting your Astra to perform anything like a Porsche will cost as much (or more) than just buying the real thing....
That's why I'm saving the money from a KAB damping trough and custom counter weight towards the Terminator arm I ultimately want.
chris@panteg
11-06-2009, 11:40
That's why I'm saving the money from a KAB damping trough and custom counter weight towards the Terminator arm I ultimately want.
Now you have got me thinking now:scratch: blimey it looks very very impressive
http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm
Listening to my other deck the baby SL5 ' it seems to me there is something right about Linear tracking ' even on this modest turntable background and surface noise for one thing are if anything even quieter than my 1210 and this makes a difference with low level stuff like solo piano etc.
Some very good advice on here and I think Marco has it pretty well sewn up (I still love MM's and the more delicate MC's, so I'm not so anti the standard arm, but I was surprised how light-weight the arm-pipe is compared to others I've sen and used/sold). A light weight tube can be damped better though with foam fill.
The Jelco's are fine. A shame that the cheapest one is getting on for £400 with cable. Totally out of my league right now unless I can drastically increase my paid hours, or set myself up as a turntable setter-upper as has been suggested.......
muffinman
11-06-2009, 12:15
Hi Hamish
I've been watching your thread and would like to direct you to one i made a while ago
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2453
I'd actually like to enforce the point i made in the post that i feel that my deck is now perfect. since the addition of the Terminator and oc9 i've felt no need to fiddle with the support, mat or clamp - it just seems like spending for the sake of it
Given the choice i'd get the arm first as it's such a massive improvement over many other models. mind you, if you were to try it on your own deck, you may not bother with the 12'
The Vinyl Adventure
11-06-2009, 13:36
that terminator is about the single coolest hifi related thing i have ever seen... well done
here is my plan as it currently stands id be interested if anyone thinks this is the wrong way of doing things
buy deck and put on my oc9 on
sit with it for a few weeks and see how i feel about it at that stage
if i feel the project, for me, has legs im going to start with that time step psu
taking in to account the astra vs porche analogy .... then i will have a think about and get advice on what new arm to get (i want a terminator now but thats only coz it looks cool which is probably not the best basis for such investment)
in the mean while i can tweak things like mats and support if anything comes up that might work out a good deal
Hamish
Have you seen this one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Technics-SL-1200-Mk2-SL1200-SL-1210_W0QQitemZ170341886137QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Au dioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?hash=ite m27a92ae8b9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1300|240%3A13 18|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
could be tricky trying to get it coz there's already 11 bids on it and still 3 days to go but as it has the AO re-wire it should be worth a punt.
HTH:smoking:
The Jelco's are fine. A shame that the cheapest one is getting on for £400 with cable.
Putting it into perspective, I paid about that for a Michell TecnoArm. The Jelco in comparison is on another level. I know that sounds like hi-fi reviewer speak, but I do own both arms and the comparison does not favour the Rega-based arm.
Ammonite Audio
11-06-2009, 15:48
Martin
A bit OT, but I've just notice your equipment list, and particularly:
Underwood-modded PS Audio GCPH
I have a GCPH and am very happy with it, but always interested in the odd tweak. What sort of modification does this involve?
Cheers
Shuggie
I have a GCPH and am very happy with it, but always interested in the odd tweak. What sort of modification does this involve?
Hi Shuggie
Here is the link; I bought the unit directly from them and have no comparison with a standard model. However, I can say that I'm very impressed with the modded GCPH which should stand the test of time through cartridge changes as it's very flexible and sounded very good with the high output DL-160 as well as excellent with my current AT33PTG.
http://www.underwoodhifi.com/mod_psaudio.html#Anchor-So-19901
The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2009, 08:58
i have just remembered ... i work in a shop that has a panasonic contract .... who does panasonic own.... technics.... staff discount!!!!!!!! wooo
twelvebears
13-06-2009, 09:16
I which case you could look at getting a new Techie rather than risk a s/h one. That said, from memories of working at (as was) Sevenoaks HiFi in my teens, trade margins (and thus staff discount) on Japanese products vary hugely from Denon (massive) to Sony (tiny) so who knows what a Techie would be....
Depends on the retail price and how much you buy from them.
Panasonic wanted a real commitment to turnover to get the best margins, which were only around 25% at best (15% for small-fry!). You may just find that a larger DJ orientated retailer may just have a better retail price than standard trade, unless Panasonic take pity on you and do a "special." You never know though and what you don't ask for you don't get!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck!
The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2009, 15:56
Depends on the retail price and how much you buy from them.
Panasonic wanted a real commitment to turnover to get the best margins, which were only around 25% at best (15% for small-fry!). You may just find that a larger DJ orientated retailer may just have a better retail price than standard trade, unless Panasonic take pity on you and do a "special." You never know though and what you don't ask for you don't get!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck!
you are bang on, on the mk5 once vat is added and the 10% i have to pay as staff, the price is £50 more than i have seen them for
but like you say it doesnt stop me ringing the rep on monday and giving him a bit of stick... they might also have some graded stock....
either way im gonna hang on and find out
The Vinyl Adventure
13-06-2009, 16:01
its a shame, when i use to work here full time i got to know a few of the reps/sales staff and got a few good deals on stuff.. now im only here as a sales bitch to help out when someone is off i have lost touch and cant remember any of the reps names
Spectral Morn
13-06-2009, 17:06
you are bang on, on the mk5 once vat is added and the 10% i have to pay as staff, the price is £50 more than i have seen them for
but like you say it doesnt stop me ringing the rep on monday and giving him a bit of stick... they might also have some graded stock....
either way im gonna hang on and find out
You don't get net trade....bad employer...mean employer errrrrrrrrr:steam: Panasoinc/Technics is a crap mark up 15% with a further 10% usually....Panasonic used to be only %15 if you bought through a distributor. Last time I bought anything Panasoinic a digital camera it was better than that but still crap. And some people think margins are good on kit (well some) but not Panasonic.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2009, 11:57
at one point we use to make so little on nikon slrs it was insane! there was a few weeks where we could by nikon d40s from jessops for 1p less than the price we could get them from nikon and suposedly we were in the same band as jessops for prices from nikon
this was around the sametime that jessops had to close 82 stores though... it seems they just forgot to make enough money to pay for overheads... plonkers
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