View Full Version : Technics SP-10 vs SL1200 sound quality
I own an SP10 and like it very, very much. Having just read a HIFI World article about the 1200, I was left with the impression that there may be little difference between the two in SQ terms, assuming both are fitted with similar arms and cartridges. I've set up my SP10 very much as a "seventies superdeck" with a Decca unipivot and (from tomorrow) Nagaoka cartridge. Having completed one project I'm toying with the idea of getting a 1200 and, over time, fitting it out as a modern deck with current generation arm and more "modern" sounding cartridge such as an Ortofon Blue. As far as the sound of the deck itself is concerned, has anyone head both and can say how they differ, if indeed they significantly do? What would be a good arm that matches the 1200 well and doesn't cost a kings ransom? Any thoughts appreciated.
Hal55
Hi Hal,
I have some relevant (more recently formed) views on this matter, as I've compared my modified SL-1210 against some very good SP10s, on many occasions. However, until I have time to contribute more, check out this thread, as it may be of interest to you: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1023-KAB-modified-SL-1210-vs-Slatedeck-SP10-a-review
The above review was in the days when my SL-1210 was no where near at the sonic level it's at now, so that should give you an idea of what is possible when the SL-1200 or 1210 have been fully 'race-tuned'! ;)
Marco.
The issue as I see it is that even with the same arm and cart the SP10 is a motor unit only and it's performance and that of the arm and cart will depend heavily on what it's mounted in. Also, given the age of the SP10 its condition and level of service will also have a massive effect on its performance. The Sl1210 has many upgrade options for it and is a much younger complete turntable, I don't think you can make a direct like for like comparison IMHO.
I built a thumping great 2 tier plinth for my SP10 out of, in total, seven sheets of 22ml marine ply. It works a treat, or I reckon it does anyway. Granted that the 1200 is an all in one unit, but I'll put some form of sub base on it. Just like the idea of having a project to keep me scouring ebay and exercising the mind. Having two techies from sort of opposite ends of the hifi modern era appeals, and gives me plenty of opportunity for comparisons etc.
Marco, interesting comparison with the KAB 1210, it seems to echo the implied sentiment in the article that there should be little difference between the two decks. I'll research it a more tomorrow,
Hal55
CableMaker1
31-12-2013, 16:50
I am still waiting for the comparisons between an SP10MK3 and an SL1200MK2 (MN-Bearing, MN Al/Cu Platter, Paul Hynes SR7 PS, rewired tonearm wire, Cablemaker1 tonearm cable, Isonone Feet). Why not include the Onkyo PX-100M and have a shootout between all three? The Onkyo PX-100M turntable was their statement turntable where only 50 were ever made. I would suspect that this would qualify to be Onkyos introduction (and pre-cursor) to their Grand Integra Line of equipment. The TA-2090 should have been badged as a Grand Integra.
Come on Marco - I know you can do it!!!
:D:D:D
Lol... If only I didn't have a life! :D
Neal makes a good point, though.
SP10s currently in circulation will most likely not be performing at anywhere near 100% of their capability, simply through ageing internal components drifting from original spec, and that alone gives the younger upstart (the SL-1200/1210) a distinct sonic advantage, even before the fact that (to my ears) the very effective upgrades now available for the latter, which fundamentally transform its performance, such as uber high-quality linear PSUs, bearings and platters, elevate it considerably beyond what a stock SP10 is capable of (no matter what plinth is used).
However, if someone could get the ageing SP10s in circulation back to performing at 100% of their capability, and then upgrade them in the way lavished on its younger brothers, then unquestionably, that would take things again to a whole new level!!
Question is, who out there has the requisite technical and engineering capabilities, not to mention commercial desire (or otherwise), to carry out such a task?
Marco.
CableMaker1
31-12-2013, 18:58
Lol... If only I didn't have a life! :D
Question is, who out there has the requisite technical and engineering capabilities, not to mention commercial desire (or otherwise), to carry out such a task?
Marco.
A simple swap of electrolytic capacitors should get you 80% there I estimate.
I nominate Marco to the task!!! :stalks::stalks::stalks: Go get em Marco!!! :D
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years to all at AoS!!!
Lol - I think there may be a bit more to it than that (especially when factoring in upgrading key areas of the SP10, as has been done with the SL-1200/1210)! ;)
IMO, the Mike New bearing, ETP platter and something like the Paul Hynes SR7 PSU (plus regulator modules), are all superior to the stock items supplied with an SP10, which is one of the main reasons why a modified SL-1200/1210, fitted with those upgrades, currently outperforms it.
Therefore, in order to level the playing field, we need a Mike New and/or a Paul Hynes to design similar upgrades for the SP10, as well as someone with the ability to get the SP10 control circuitry performing at full capacity again...
Anyway, Mike, wishing your family and you a Happy, Healthy, Peaceful and Prosperous New Year - have a nice one! :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-12-2013, 20:22
Lol... If only I didn't have a life! :D
Neal makes a good point, though.
SP10s currently in circulation will most likely not be performing at anywhere near 100% of their capability, simply through ageing internal components drifting from original spec, and that alone gives the younger upstart (the SL-1200/1210) a distinct sonic advantage, even before the fact that (to my ears) the very effective upgrades now available for the latter, which fundamentally transform its performance, such as uber high-quality linear PSUs, bearings and platters, elevate it considerably beyond what a stock SP10 is capable of (no matter what plinth is used).
However, if someone could get the ageing SP10s in circulation back to performing at 100% of their capability, and then upgrade them in the way lavished on its younger brothers, then unquestionably, that would take things again to a whole new level!!
Question is, who out there has the requisite technical and engineering capabilities, not to mention commercial desire (or otherwise), to carry out such a task?
Marco.
Nick. :)
Not sure he could be arsed, dude... He's probably got enough on his plate at the moment!
Plus, I'm also talking about someone with the engineering facilities and capability to machine a new (improved) bearing and platter for the SP10, which would compete in quality with the items Mike New produces for the SL-1200.
I'm not sure Nick could do that himself. However, he'd certainly be very capable of improving the PSU and carrying out any re-capping of the main board :)
Marco.
Not sure he could be arsed, dude... He's probably got enough on his plate at the moment!
Plus, I'm also talking about someone with the engineering facilities and capability to machine a new (improved) bearing and platter for the SP10, which would compete in quality with the items Mike New produces for the SL-1200.
I'm not sure Nick could do that himself. However, he'd certainly be very capable of improving the PSU and carrying out any re-capping of the main board :)
Marco.
Nick uses an SP10 himself and as for "re-capping" the main board, I can just see his face if I asked him that!
The effort required is not commensurate with the rewards obtained.
Nick uses an SP10 himself...
Lol - do you think I don't know that, daftee? He had it long before you two became inseparable twins! :D
;)
...as for "re-capping" the main board, I can just see his face if I asked him that!
The effort required is not commensurate with the rewards obtained.
I would agree, in terms of commercial opportunities, however, the SP10 has the potential, if judiciously modified and brought up to spec, to be one of the best T/Ts in the world, as its 'raw ingredients' are of a much higher standard than those of the stock SL-1200/1210.
Marco.
chris@panteg
01-01-2014, 12:58
Albert Porter has done that to his SP10 mk3 , which is already quite a bit better than the mk2 , he disassembled the chassis and put it in bespoke plinth.
It matches in performance his other deck , a Rockport Sirius 3 I think it's called ?
Check out his website.
Ali Tait
01-01-2014, 15:48
Not sure he could be arsed, dude... He's probably got enough on his plate at the moment!
Plus, I'm also talking about someone with the engineering facilities and capability to machine a new (improved) bearing and platter for the SP10, which would compete in quality with the items Mike New produces for the SL-1200.
I'm not sure Nick could do that himself. However, he'd certainly be very capable of improving the PSU and carrying out any re-capping of the main board :)
Marco.
Aye, he can certainly fettle the electronics. As for the rest, not sure how much improvement there to be had? Be interesting to find out. As you say, would take a lot of work.
There maybe room for improvement of the main bearing especially given the use many of these decks will have had, strange there hasn't been more development for the SP10 maybe the market is just not big enough.
StanleyB
02-01-2014, 09:10
The SP-10 is on my list of the 5 best direct drive turntables ever designed and engineered. It is also one of the few turntables I dreamt of buying one day when I was a poor lad earning peanuts in a sweatshop or two. In anticipation of that day I ended up buying and hoarding various bits and pieces for the SP-10. That included one of the Technics EPA-501 arms, the matching Technics stylus tracking weight gauge, and the Technics stereo phono cable that was designed for the EPA-501. I'll try to take a pic of them so that we have images of them on AoS for reference.
Based on what I have seen in terms of engineering and design, I am not convinced that the 1200 can ever surpass the SP-10 performance wise. The SP-10 is on my list of all time greats for very good reason. Technics appears to have set out to design something without compromise and a total disregard of cost. In doing so, they left few, if any, areas that can be improved upon in the design. Even the bearing and platter are of a far higher quality than any of their other turntables. I for one would never substitute a SP-10 for a SL-1200, modded or otherwise.
Based on what I have seen in terms of engineering and design, I am not convinced that the 1200 can ever surpass the SP-10 performance wise.
You're entitled to that opinion, Stan, held I'm sure by many others looking at things from a similar perspective. Trouble is, when it comes to an extensively modified SL-1210, like mine, (I'm only using mine as an example because it's what I've used for comparison purposes), listening results don't bear out your assertion.
I've heard about 7 or 8 very good SP10s, all in different plinths, with different arms and cartridges used in different systems, and in about 5 of those my T/T has been compared directly with them in the same system, and at no point have I left thinking 'jeez the SP10 is in a different league, so why am I bothering modifying my 1210?'
In fact, quite the opposite has occurred, as I can hear quite a few areas where, to my ears, my T/T outperformed those SP10s, although in some aspects the differences were subtle. Furthermore, all of the SP10 owners agreed that there was little to separate the T/Ts. Therefore, the undoubted engineering superiority of the SP10, on paper, quite simply doesn't translate in practice, when a judiciously modified SL-1210 is in the equation.
You know me, Stan, do you honestly think that if I thought an SP10 was sonically superior to my own T/T that I wouldn't have gone out and bought one by now?? Think about it! ;)
Undoubtedly, if comparing a stock SL-1200 to an SP10, the latter would be in a different league, but what you're not taking into account (as quite simply, you don't know – and won’t ever know until you've done the comparison yourself), is just how sonically influential the available upgrades are for the SL-1200/1210, and crucially how much they not only level the playing field, but in some ways allow the SP10's little brother to show it a few new tricks...
Marco.
StanleyB
02-01-2014, 10:14
If you add up the cost of modifying your SL-1200 to surpass the SP-10, you probably could have bought a SP-10 for each room in your mansion ;).
Nick uses an SP10 himself and as for "re-capping" the main board, I can just see his face if I asked him that!
The effort required is not commensurate with the rewards obtained.
Done it twice, first one was mine. Well worth it for an original one. Its no big deal to do, I would charge on a hourly basis, parts are not that expensive.
Though not sure what "main board" you mean, there are three and a half PCB's in there, none of this bespoke IC required.
the stock power supply is good, would be simple to make a replacement, but there may not be that big a gain, the existing rails are quiet. They knew what they were doing. It is worth changing the caps in the stock power supply though (if they are original).
If you want to talk about a SP10 job thats not fun, try replacing all the logic devices after a power supply accident. That was a world of pain (though I did find a trivial design fault in the process :-)).
I should spend some time playing with the sp10, I have done nothing to it since putting it in a slate plinth and adding the Hadcock.
StanleyB
02-01-2014, 10:19
the stock power supply is good, would be simple to make a replacement, but there may not be that big a gain, the existing rails are quiet. They knew what they were doing. It is worth changing the caps in the stock power supply though (if they are original).
If you want to talk about a SP10 job thats not fun, try replacing all the logic devices after a power supply accident. That was a world of pain (though I did find a trivial design fault in the process :-)).
It is worth replacing the 80's caps and logic chips with those of more recent designs. Capacitors have improved in performance, as has the ESD performance of logic chips.
If you add up the cost of modifying your SL-1200 to surpass the SP-10, you probably could have bought a SP-10 for each room in your mansion...
Lol! The point is, though, that I own a turntable which contains all-new (or newish) parts, all of which are currently available should something go pop, rather than (in most cases) a 40+ year old antique, which has been abused in a radio station, and in many ways seen better days!
I also know that my T/T is performing at 100% of its capability - and crucially - that all the modifications I've installed are supported by the designers in question, should any faults occur.
That piece of mind, together with knowing that I own something that not only sounds better than any SP10 I've heard, but that is totally bespoke and unique, is worth every penny of what I've paid for it! ;)
Marco.
I should spend some time playing with the sp10, I have done nothing to it since putting it in a slate plinth and adding the Hadcock.
You should definitely show it a little more love, as there is undoubtedly latent potential waiting to be exploited! ;)
If I were really serious about the SP10, I'd commission Mike New to develop a 'no holds barred' uber-bearing for it, taking advantage of the SP10's superior structural integrity. Then I would 'go mental' on the PSU, and design something totally OTT that *genuinely* maximised the performance of its awesome motor unit.
One of the areas where I can hear my modded 1210 usurp the SP10, is in the areas, sonically and musically, which from experience I'd attribute to the effect of a superior PSU, using of course a Paul Hynes SR7, and its associated regulator modules, fitted to the PCB of the 1210, as comparison against the stock SP10 PSU.
In that area, my own T/T appears as being subjectively 'quieter', with less 'mush/grit' superimposed onto the music signal, and thus a lower noise-floor from which music is then reproduced in a more convincing manner. Essentially, it creates the subjective impression that my modded 1210 has greater clarity and resolution than a stock SP10 - and so ultimately acts as more of an 'open window'.
Therefore, along with the bearing, I am confident that there are gains to be had by upgrading the above areas of the SP10 :)
Marco.
StanleyB
02-01-2014, 10:48
If I were really serious about the SP10, I'd commission Mike New to develop a 'no holds barred' uber-bearing for it, taking advantage of the SP10's superior structural integrity. Then I would 'go mental' on the PSU, and design something totally OTT that *genuinely* maximised the performance of its awesome motor unit.
I have my doubts as to whether Mike could improve on the SP-10 bearing. That thing was designed to withstand previously unheard of torque and stresses as far as turntables go. To surpass that would require access to some rare earth metals and laser precision diamond cutters. They don't come cheap.
chris@panteg
02-01-2014, 11:03
I have my doubts as to whether Mike could improve on the SP-10 bearing. That thing was designed to withstand previously unheard of torque and stresses as far as turntables go. To surpass that would require access to some rare earth metals and laser precision diamond cutters. They don't come cheap.
+1 especially the mk3 version, I don't think Marco has ever heard the mk3 SP10 , have you Marco ? Only a small handful in the country.
I have my doubts as to whether Mike could improve on the SP-10 bearing. That thing was designed to withstand previously unheard of torque and stresses as far as turntables go.
That's possibly true, but I've seen an SP10 bearing up close, and of course an MN one for the 1210, and although the former is substantial, the latter, to me, looks rather more solidly engineered. Of course, in actuality it may not be, as I'm no expert.
However, what I do know is that commercially produced audio equipment is built to a price, and so when that restriction is removed, and you say to an engineering expert: 'here's X amount of cash - now go and build me the best bearing you can, and implement it within the context of X design!', there's a good chance that he'll come up with something better... ;)
Marco.
+1 especially the mk3 version, I don't think Marco has ever heard the mk3 SP10 , have you Marco ?
Nope, all my comments are based on comparisons with the MK2. However, I'd dearly love to hear a MK3! :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
02-01-2014, 11:28
Nope, all my comments are based on comparisons with the MK2. However, I'd dearly love to hear a MK3! :)
Marco.
So would I, just to point out as far as I know the mk3 was not built to a price, but a no holds barred attempt to build the best turntable ! Surpassing the P3 and Kenwood/Trio LO7D, I believe that technics lost money on it ? Did they succeed ? Well many still prefer the P3 or Kenwood .
It is worth replacing the 80's caps and logic chips with those of more recent designs. Capacitors have improved in performance, as has the ESD performance of logic chips.
Not sure if there is any advantage to replacing the logic, it was a pain de-soldering all those DIL's (have put sockets in now, I did it because I killed all of them shorting the 35v line to the 5v one). They are all standard 74 series parts, but there did need to be a few changes to cope with the different input capacitance of the newer parts. And they start to see edges that the older chips ignore, so its far from a simple 1:1 swap. I spent a lot of time trying to see logic transitions at the edge of what the scope I had at the time could see. The fixes were simple, bit more decoupling and a couple of resistor changes. but finding them was far from simple.
Indeed, the SP10 does seem to be 'sensitive', I'd be wary of going too far on the capacitor replacements as well. On one of my decks I ended up retrofitting a number of ceramic caps as the FKP2s I'd used as 'modern' replacments caused the speed lock to fail which made the deck hunt on all three speeds.
One of the areas where I can hear my modded 1210 usurp the SP10, is in the areas, sonically and musically, which from experience I'd attribute to the effect of a superior PSU, using of course a Paul Hynes SR7, and its associated regulator modules, fitted to the PCB of the 1210, as comparison against the stock SP10 PSU.
Interesting. You know my views on the importance of power supplies, so no disagreement there. But what was the biggest shock in living with a 1210 for a couple of days was the utter lack of torque compared to the sp10, I am not used to the record brush slowing things down. Maybe I am just too heavy handed :-). The sp10 motor drive board uses discreet transistors on a heavy chassis heat sink. And the main thing on a sp10 is the power supply is already twin for the logic and analogue parts (ignoring the neon supply), so its already using some of the ideas that were added to 1210's
I should look through Dave's catalogue and see what bits could improve matters. A 12" arm would be the obvious first thing to think about, maybe a second layer of slate.
Interesting. You know my views on the importance of power supplies, so no disagreement there. But what was the biggest shock in living with a 1210 for a couple of days was the utter lack of torque compared to the sp10, I am not used to the record brush slowing things down. Maybe I am just too heavy handed :-).
Lol - and from similar experience, I would agree, although I haven't noticed the platter slowing when using a brush.
However, is all that torque necessarily a good thing, in strictly hi-fi applications? Sonically, I'm not so sure... In my opinion, the SL-1200/1210 has an adequate amount of torque, in order to be effective, but not too much so as to introduce more vibrations, caused by the extra energy created by excess torque.
The sp10 motor drive board uses discreet transistors on a heavy chassis heat sink. And the main thing on a sp10 is the power supply is already twin for the logic and analogue parts (ignoring the neon supply), so its already using some of the ideas that were added to 1210's...
Interesting - I didn't know that. However, it doesn't appear to be doing quite as good a job, if what I've described as lacking with the SP10 (compared with my own T/T) is related to PSU differences. Although if it is, it's probably nothing a few cap upgrades, in key areas, wouldn't fix!
I should look through Dave's catalogue and see what bits could improve matters. A 12" arm would be the obvious first thing to think about, maybe a second layer of slate.
A second layer of slate may help, however I'm not sure about a 12" arm. Undoubtedly, they are technically more accurate than 9" arms. However, in my experience, they also significantly change the musical presentation, and to my ears, not all for the better: a classic case of 'you win some and lose some'.
12" arms, IME, sound smoother, more relaxed and generally more 'effortless', and they dig out more bass, but they also lack the 'funkiness', dynamic alacrity and sheer 'fun factor/get-up-and-go' of the best 9" arms - and so which is 'best' often comes down to the type of music you listen to most.
If you're going to do it right, I'd get a double-layer slate plinth made that's big enough to take two arms, and have both a 9 and 12" arm installed, fitted with entirely different cartridges, in order to take advantage of the individual strengths, not only of the arms themselves, but the cartridges too, with different types of music.
I'd probably fit an SME 3012/SPU, and use it for all your jazz/classical and acoustic stuff, and put a modern Decca on your Hadcock (such as Clive has on his Salvation), or a Cartridgeman MusicMaker (which works superly well on a Hadcock), or maybe Dom's new MC cartridge, and use that for everything else. I think that would work fab.
S'ok, I'm rather good at spending other people's money! :eyebrows:
Marco.
CableMaker1
06-01-2014, 18:06
If I can add my 2 cents into this discussion (the American version of 2 pence in Great Britain conversion, probably more like 1.5 pence when you factor in the exchange rate :D ),
I personally have not had the pleasure to own, see, or ever hear in person the SP10 lineup of turntables, but I do have some knowledge about its existence. I am a proud owner to two SL1200MK2 for over 25 years as a single owner to both turntables. They have been modded extensively 4 years ago with partial thanks to this site. The TTs are still going strong in my equipment. Other than my two tape decks - which I no longer use, are one year older than my two turntables in my system lineup. In my lifetime, I have owned only Technics Direct Drive Turntables. No other turntable, or turntable drive system (idler or belt) has ever been a part of my audio system. I personally love the speed accuracy that direct drive offers, along with the magic that comes with a magnet as the drive system for a direct drive mechanism (one of my tape decks is a direct drive mechanism).
With all the modifications we have done with our beloved 1200s to bring it to a level of competitiveness to that of the statement turntables offered by Technics SP 10 lineup, Kenwood, Denon, Sony, Onkyo, or Nakamichi, by modifying our power supplies, purchasing the Mike New Bearings, Bearing Baseplate, new arm, new tonearm wirong and cable, new tonearm, etc., which has elevated the 1200 series to be all that it can be, there are two areas that the 1200 series TT cannot compete with (but does an excellent job) which the SP10 was engineered from the ground up - is in the direct drive motor and platter. The 1200 is the little brother in this area compared to the SP10.
If we compare the 1200 motor drive and platter to the SP10, here are the comparisons from what I recall from reading the SP10 literatures specs:
The SP10 has a heavier platter at 20 pounds and a larger magnet compared to the 1200's 3 pounds
The SP10 has 12 stators compared to the SL1200s - 3 stators - the stators is what gives power to the magnet which drives the platter
We come close in the platter area thanks to an upgrade offering by Mike New in his AL/CU Platter coming in at 12 hefty pounds. Can we get it up to 20 to match that of the big brother? Adding two to three copper platters will get it to 20. But the question remains - will the 1200 be able to drive the platter with this much mass since we would need to ask the 1200 to jump from driving a 3 pound platter to something that is nearly 7 times its weight.
The stator is a bigger challenge because now we will need to make a fundamental change to the drive circuitry in this area. Only a handful of people would be willing to address this. The 1200 is quite impressive that it can drive a platter with 3 stators with the wow and flutter accuracy of that of the SP10.
My only wishlist to add to this is if we can add a 12 inch arm to our beloved 1200s. However, I am not certain if that too can be achieved.
What I am certain though is that with the mods we all did to our 1200s is that we bought it to a competitiveness that rivals that of the SP10 and other statement turntables that the other companies offered once upon a time in the golden age of audio. In some areas, the upgrades done to our SL1200s have surpassed that of the SP 10 and other statement turntables.
Any thoughts or comments are gladly welcome.
Hi Mike,
You're absolutely right.
As I said earlier in the thread, the SP10 is fundamentally the better turntable (for some of the reasons you've outlined), and if someone 'went to town' updating and upgrading it in key areas, as has been done with the SL-1200/1210, you'd end up with a far superior T/T, providing that it was fitted in a top-notch plinth.
However, as you've said:
What I am certain though is that with the mods we all did to our 1200s is that we bought it to a competitiveness that rivals that of the SP10 and other statement turntables that the other companies offered once upon a time in the golden age of audio. In some areas, the upgrades done to our SL1200s have surpassed that of the SP 10 and other statement turntables.
That state of affairs has certainly been borne out in my listening comparisons, with a stock SP10 in the equation, amongst other 'renowned and desirable' turntables :)
Marco.
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