View Full Version : Should digital sound like analogue? Should analogue sound like digital?
One of the dirtiest tricks that religions inflict on young children is the "You don't believe strongly enough" trick ("... that's why God didn't save your dog like you prayed for").
I do hate to see the "you obviously haven't experienced good [insert which ever equipment/format is being worshiped] " argument being used.
Basically it is trying to make out the fault is with the opponent - it's a personal attack disguised as something else (is that what's called passive aggressive?)
Aaand.. You're back in the room!
I'd agree too.
But that's where these discussions are bound to fall - there are probably many contributing here who STILL love and associate their vinyl source sound for the very reason that it captures the romance and that this romance makes the music feel very REAL (to them).
Then there will be others who like their vinyl to be just as biting and harsh as the music calls for AND they achieve this (perhaps) with their vinyl source too.
There's no point either saying things like " you've never heard good vinyl then!" because a) when someone else hears that "good vinyl" they could subjectively hear it as being just more romantic b) digital people could equally say to Marco for example that he has never heard "good digital" if he can always hear digital glare..
And so, we can only answer on a theoretical standpoint - and yet many people also hate that too, prefer to stay in the realms of personal, subjective feeling about the matter.
Theoretically, digital has more chance of being perfect. Unless one can say vinyl and tape etc are already perfect media, they are doomed to be bound by their physical limitations. There could be new analogue media invented but it's too expensive for physical playback methods to be introduced and implemented throughout the land.
This is were digital has the advantage.. It is easy to change digital methods and formats as technology progresses and by only upgrading the DAC (with file playback). Digital and computer products are constantly being upgraded by folks and so replay hardware constantly evolves by being build into new technology.
So if we accept that both digital and analogue ARE coloured in their own ways, digital is free to evolve and escape current limitations whereas most analogue formats aren't.
Over time, the appeal for analogue media will be to sound very much like analogue media . Over time, digital media should eventually sound like nothing at all.
Digital will become analogue in at some point in time! 3D printing already turns digital into a 7" vinyl (think it was a Block Party single?) - So what is that analogue or digital? Digital with analogue playback.... hmm. :scratch:
Good post Nat, especially the bit I have highlighted. It matters not one jot if you have heard 'good vinyl' or not, if it doesn't strike a chord with the listener, how good it may or may not be is irrelevant.
It matters not one jot if you have heard 'good vinyl' or not, if it doesn't strike a chord with the listener, how good it may or may not be is irrelevant.
Eh? How will you know if "good vinyl" strikes a chord with you, if you haven't experienced how it sounds? :scratch:
Or are we now buying hi-fi equipment, and assembling our systems, for some other purpose than to play and hear our favourite music at its best?
b) digital people could equally say to Marco for example that he has never heard "good digital" if he can always hear digital glare..
Lol... Most "digital people" I know, some of whom have contributed to this thread, accept the existence and are fully aware of 'digital glare', including Stan Beresford who makes a living selling DACs!
You need to follow the discussion properly, Nat, instead of simply cherry-picking the comments that best fit with your sensibilities, and using those to back up your argument.
I could equally say that the "digital people", who can't hear glare, are deaf/and or don't have sufficiently transparent systems to reveal the effect, but of course I wouldn't do that... ;)
Marco.
Ah well see, I think I know what I mean, but you need to be inside my head to understand it :lol: (not sure I do to be honest, but never mind).
Lol - I think the daftness, swirling around inside your nut, got the better of you... S'ok, I can fully relate to the condition!! :D
Anyway, at the end of the day, you don't have to justify why you're not into vinyl. There is no need to have a reason. If you don't like it and don't want it, that's cool :)
Marco.
I am totally open to people bringing around their digital front end its always good to meet people and learn something new and they can hear the TT and make up their own opinions.
I am always interested to learn from others and talk music
jandl100
04-01-2014, 10:04
Well, not so simple really.
What's good for unamplified acoustic recordings may not sound best on electronic music. And vice versa - I've heard many a system set up by rock aficionados that doesn't have a clue about
:eyebrows:
Then they are not very good hi-fi systems - the kit does not know what type of music it is playing, it is just moving air. Any proper hi-fi system should be able to reproduce all types of music equally well or it is not hi-fi in the strictest sense. I'll grant you that ideal is too rarely realised but that is mainly due to there being some very odd and/or highly compromised loudspeakers out there these days.
Heh. Dream on.
I've yet to hear a system that plays all music to an equally excellent standard.
And that includes some 'heavy hitters' on this very forum, as well as my own system. ;)
Whether we like or realise it or not we all build and tune our systems to our personal preferences in music and presentation.
Bring some new music along and I'll be happy to bet you a penny to a pound that it won't replay it to the standard of your favoured music.; i.e. to as high a standard as someone whose favoured music it is.
We may kid ourselves that it will, but we would be deluding ourselves. :exactly:
I am totally open to people bringing around their digital front end its always good to meet people and learn something new and they can hear the TT and make up their own opinions.
I am always interested to learn from others and talk music
Ditto! :cool:
Marco.
I've yet to hear a system that plays all music to an equally excellent standard.
Unfortunately I have to agree. It may not be that a system plays a genre badly, more that it's not as good as it could be.
Some systems play jazz and simpler music wonderfully. They may not be so good with rock but still decent.
Other systems may excel with rock but not have the very strong "I'm there" aspect to simpler music.
Plenty of systems can make a decent fist of all genres but there is always something they do best of all.
I've yet to hear a system that plays all music to an equally excellent standard.
Indeed (and it won't happen), but as I've already said, it's not about a system playing all music to an equally excellent standard, but rather a system not 'falling apart', or "not having a clue about' (your words) a particular genre of music.
If it does that, quite simply, it's either crap or has been deliberately set-up to excel at reproducing one specific genre, at the expense of all others - and yes, I've heard systems like that, and I couldn't live with them.
Whether we like or realise it or not we all build and tune our systems to our personal preferences in music...
That's a fair point, and perhaps some people do that, but tell me exactly how I would go about it when I listen to everything from Seal to Shostakovich? One minute I could be listening to some Alice in Chains, and the next, some Miles Davis, so how do I 'tune' my system to favour both, or perhaps later some Chopin? :scratch:
The answer of course is that I don't. I simply ensure that my system gets all the fundamentals right (as I referred to earlier), and so can handle all genres of music. Yes, it will excel at reproducing some styles more than others, but the point is that it doesn't "not have a clue about" any!
Bring some new music along and I'll be happy to bet you a penny to a pound that it won't replay it to the standard of your favoured music.; i.e. to as high a standard as someone whose favoured music it is.
So if I brought some Rammstein or Tool (heavy rock music) round to your place: would your system fall apart playing it, or would it merely not reproduce it as well (but still to a good standard) as when playing some classical, (your choice) of music?
I suspect that it would be the latter, and I'm sure the exact same would apply if you came round to mine and brought your favourite pieces of classical music with you, i.e. they would still sound very good, but perhaps not as good as they do in your own system, which by admission, you've set up to excel with classical music, as that's pretty much all that you listen to.
At the end of the day, my system has to be much more versatile than yours, simply because my taste in music is much wider, so that's why I've ensured that it is!
:exactly:
Marco.
Unfortunately I have to agree. It may not be that a system plays a genre badly, more that it's not as good as it could be.
Some systems play jazz and simpler music wonderfully. They may not be so good with rock but still decent.
Other systems may excel with rock but not have the very strong "I'm there" aspect to simpler music.
Plenty of systems can make a decent fist of all genres but there is always something they do best of all.
You're misunderstanding the point though, Clive. See my last post, where hopefully I've explained myself more clearly :)
Marco.
Heh. Dream on.
I've yet to hear a system that plays all music to an equally excellent standard.
And that includes some 'heavy hitters' on this very forum, as well as my own system. ;)
Whether we like or realise it or not we all build and tune our systems to our personal preferences in music and presentation.
Bring some new music along and I'll be happy to bet you a penny to a pound that it won't replay it to the standard of your favoured music.; i.e. to as high a standard as someone whose favoured music it is.
We may kid ourselves that it will, but we would be deluding ourselves. :exactly:
I think you are over-complicating things here a bit. The only drawback to excellent replay of all types of music is going to be the loudspeakers, and maybe the room. Whilst there are some good all-rounders (well-sorted big Tannoy DCs for instance) the perfect loudspeaker has yet to be invented. I should imagine there are some that come very close only I have not heard them as they are probably very expensive. Equally there are some very odd, very expensive loudspeakers out there that will only do a few things 'right'.
That also mirrors my viewpoint and experiences :)
Marco.
StanleyB
04-01-2014, 11:53
This somehow reminds me why I got rid of my coloured vinyl records, and only kept the black ones. But that's for another thread.
jandl100
04-01-2014, 12:25
At the end of the day, my system has to be much more versatile than yours, simply because my taste in music is much wider, so that's why I've ensured that it is!
:exactly:
Marco.
OK - let's explore that a little.
Yep, I'm sure you have a "wider" taste in music than I do.
But perhaps your music concentrates on the outer dynamic envelope? So whilst the music genres are different, the underlying requirements are similar.
E.g. a symphony orchestra going hell for leather in a Shostakovich scherzo may not be that dissimilar in audio requirements to Rammstein?
Play a girl with guitar (or a string quartet) on it, and it may not be that good or involving?
I'm not saying it would or not - just putting forward the thought. :)
jandl100
04-01-2014, 12:32
So if I brought some Rammstein or Tool (heavy rock music) round to your place: would your system fall apart playing it, or would it merely not reproduce it as well (but still to a good standard) as when playing some classical, (your choice) of music?
I suspect that it would be the latter, and I'm sure the exact same would apply if you came round to mine and brought your favourite pieces of classical music with you, i.e. they would still sound very good, but perhaps not as good as they do in your own system, which by admission, you've set up to excel with classical music, as that's pretty much all that you listen to..
... and a thought or two on this.
Sure my system would be pretty good on Rammstein, I would think.
But equally, I feel sure you would find it falling short compared to your system
I think the point here is that we both strive for excellence - and "other music" would not attain that goal on either of our systems.
Perhaps "fall apart" was a rather exaggerated phrase. ;) ... hmm, actually, no. I've heard systems that sound darn good on dubstep, for example, that truly appalled me when asked to play classical! :eek:
.
But perhaps your music concentrates on the outer dynamic envelope? So whilst the music genres are different, the underlying requirements are similar.
E.g. a symphony orchestra going hell for leather in a Shostakovich scherzo may not be that dissimilar in audio requirements to Rammstein?
Play a girl with guitar (or a string quartet) on it, and it may not be that good or involving?
I'm not saying it would or not - just putting forward the thought. :)
It's the other way around, surely? If it can do Rammstein and Shostakovich well then it will piss it with the girly guitar. I have heard plenty of systems that do girly guitar well but crack up with the big dynamics and complex mixes of rock music because they don't have enough power and the speakers are far too small and compromised.
That's a fair point, and perhaps some people do that, but tell me exactly how I would go about it when I listen to everything from Seal to Shostakovich? One minute I could be listening to some Alice in Chains, and the next, some Miles Davis, so how do I 'tune' my system to favour both, or perhaps later some Chopin? :scratch:
The answer of course is that I don't. I simply ensure that my system gets all the fundamentals right (as I referred to earlier), and so can handle all genres of music. Yes, it will excel at reproducing some styles more than others, but the point is that it doesn't "not have a clue about" any!
Indeed, and I have an equally wide (and different) range of music to play. The needs of a system to play rock, a single female voice, some chamber music and large scale orchestral are quite different but I don't go about tuning it for one over the other. I just try and increase its overall performance in ways that benefit every type of music.
Indeed, and I have an equally wide (and different) range of music to play. The needs of a system to play rock, a single female voice, some chamber music and large scale orchestral are quite different but I don't go about tuning it for one over the other. I just try and increase its overall performance in ways that benefit every type of music.
I totally agree Martin,otherwise if you had a system that played only some types of music well it would certainly limit your scope and therefore enjoyment of all types of music.
One point I must make is that although I am a vinyl/tube enthusiast I do find it slightly disappointing that I am unable to listen to a great deal of classical music on vinyl due to the background noise, I'm afraid i have to concede that top end digital equipment is better in this respect for an 'undisturbed' listening experience.
I do find it slightly disappointing that I am unable to listen to a great deal of classical music on vinyl due to the background noise
I have favoured CD for classical for quite a while, and one look at my collection tells the tale of more CD purchases in classical and more vinyl purchases in rock.
HOWEVER, recent events are changing that. It really is about having very synergistic choices in vinyl - the turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage all play a part. I have a setup at the moment that has very low intrinsic noise and wide dynamic range, which means that surface noise and pops/ticks are very well suppressed. I can play even small scale classical and not be bothered by noise at all, simply falling in to the performance in an all-encompassing manner. Very zen!
jandl100
04-01-2014, 18:13
It's the other way around, surely? If it can do Rammstein and Shostakovich well then it will piss it with the girly guitar. I have heard plenty of systems that do girly guitar well but crack up with the big dynamics and complex mixes of rock music because they don't have enough power and the speakers are far too small and compromised.
Nope, I disagree.
I'd say that a system optimised to enable flexing of the walls (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) can't be as impressive at the small scale stuff.
It's what I've heard time and time again.
My own system is focussed on getting the small dynamic changes presented well with natural soundstaging, it does do large scale music pretty well but simply can't move the air, for example, to the extent of say MartinT's Ushers or Marco's Tannoys. It does other things better, though, imho.
It all depends what aspects of the music are important to you.
Nope, I disagree.
I'd say that a system optimised to enable flexing of the walls (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) can't be as impressive at the small scale stuff.
It's what I've heard time and time again.
.
No, I can't go along with that unless you can be more specific. It may be the case in your system but you have weird and wonderful Omni speakers. What exactly would be holding back the system that has the power and clarity to deliver a dynamic and complex mix well from doing the same thing with a simple girl with guitar mix? Makes no sense to me.
Nope, I disagree.
I'd say that a system optimised to enable flexing of the walls (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) can't be as impressive at the small scale stuff.
It's what I've heard time and time again.
My own system is focussed on getting the small dynamic changes presented well with natural soundstaging, it does do large scale music pretty well but simply can't move the air, for example, to the extent of say MartinT's Ushers or Marco's Tannoys. It does other things better, though, imho.
It all depends what aspects of the music are important to you.
I think I understand where you're coming from Jerry but what in the case of the larger MBLs up the range using more powerful sub-woofers and larger cabs? Would they not have the wall bending ability and retain the soundstage and detail you like as they use similar omni-tweeter technology?
There are other examples that I can think of too such as (...and here I can almost see you wincing at the thought ;) so my apologies in advance) JM Lab Eutopia speakers, TAD reference 1s, B&W Nautilus and even, dare I say it (?) some Tannoys do both rather well too courtesy of that point source design, albeit not with the precision and outright detail the MBLs? There are way less expensive examples that do it well using clever design housing tweeters separate to sub woofers (a little like the MBL or B&Ws).
One thing that some of the above examples share is frightening expense. My own view is that you can have the best of both worlds but as a general rule, it'll cost you. Compromise comes with limitations in speaker size, and quality of components and design. Few small budget speakers can be driven hard without some rather nasty compression artefacts coming into play and even if they could, none have true scale. What they do well is to play at moderate volumes and image like a brain-shower on LSD :mental:
Few large multi-driver speakers seem to pull off seamless integration and imaging as well as smaller ones for various reasons unless very carefully (and usually expensively) designed, but a lot of this is down to quality of drivers and quality of baffle design and layout of drivers. Whilst many manufacturers of even some surprisingly expensive speakers just chuck reasonable (and in some cases frighteningly cheap and nasty) drivers into an MDF box for max profit, none of these will ever sound that good and most sound pretty much the same. You can lump a hell of a lot of todays mass market boxes into that arena. There are a fair few exceptions though. You can have a larger box with carefully selected mid and tweeter drivers which have superb off-axis performance which, despite wider baffles, still image like crazy, and with decent crossover design, maintain a commendably flat response with frequency to give you pretty much what's on the recording as intended.
The latter needn't cost a bomb but they do take some finding and often, auditioning is the only way.
Girly singing with guitar, finesse and sound-staging can come with scale and genuine welly, but rarely in smaller boxes. Imaging and detail are the forte of smaller designs but not exclusively so, as some big ones that I've heard do it equally as well.
Even some vintage designs spring to mind from Snell and Tannoy. Most of these are scorned because so many refurbs get the crossovers wrong which ruins them, but find a healthy Snell A and feed it a few watts to watch walls shake and images appear spookily in front of you ;-)
it does do large scale music pretty well but simply can't move the air, for example, to the extent of say MartinT's Ushers or Marco's Tannoys. It does other things better, though, imho.
It all depends what aspects of the music are important to you.
Yes, I agree and have had that as a target for my system: to retain the slam and potency that I already have but resolve to the small scale delicacy of, say, Tom's system (and yours I guess but I haven't heard it yet).
Recent changes are definitely getting me there: the Aurorasound VIDA phono stage is on trial and the level of detail and delicacy available has taken a big step up. Strangely, a Marigo CD mat is doing something similar in my Ayre player.
Hi Jerry,
OK - let's explore that a little.
Yep, I'm sure you have a "wider" taste in music than I do.
But perhaps your music concentrates on the outer dynamic envelope? So whilst the music genres are different, the underlying requirements are similar.
E.g. a symphony orchestra going hell for leather in a Shostakovich scherzo may not be that dissimilar in audio requirements to Rammstein?
Spot on, which is why getting the above as right as possible is one of the fundamentals I use to test if my system is capable of reproducing a believable and lifelike sound. I simply could not live with one that fell apart with 'difficult' material. However, it's not my only fundamental system consideration, which is where we arrive at the next part of your post...
Play a girl with guitar (or a string quartet) on it, and it may not be that good or involving?
Well, of course it's all subjective, but certainly not to my ears, based on the benchmark of hearing a 'girl playing a guitar' (or string quartet, courtesy of attending performances of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales), at various venues many times over the years, where the performance was live and purely acoustic. Trust me, based on that, I have a very good 'indelible impression' inside my head of how well a hi-fi system gets that right...
Like I said before, getting acoustic voices and instruments sounding as lifelike and believable as possible on my system, and even things like the clapping of an audience, which might seem simple, but can be spectacularly difficult to achieve, in order for it not to sound like rapid machine-gun fire, or something similarly grating and artificial, is of paramount importance, as the former especially acts as the bedrock from which true high-fidelity sound is achieved.
Therefore, first and foremost, my system has been voiced to get that right (or as right as is possible).
The fact that my system can pin you to the wall with gut-wrenching slam and visceral intensity, when playing some Shosty or Rammstein is largely because of the size/efficiency of my speakers and how powerfully and cleanly my amplifier drives them - and crucially, how the sound couples to and pressurises my (relatively small) room.
However, none of that would be worth a damn if my system didn't similarly excel at the more subtle aspects of music reproduction, as at the end of the day brute force is nothing without finesse! ;)
Marco.
Hi Jim,
One point I must make is that although I am a vinyl/tube enthusiast I do find it slightly disappointing that I am unable to listen to a great deal of classical music on vinyl due to the background noise, I'm afraid i have to concede that top end digital equipment is better in this respect for an 'undisturbed' listening experience.
Aside from a very small amount of 'vinyl roar' (the sound of the stylus tracking record grooves) during quiet passages with classical music, and only when the volume is high, I hear no background noise in my system, when playing vinyl that is in pristine condition, and my amplification and phono stage are all-valve.
If you're talking about the odd click and pop, when playing less than pristine vinyl, then that's different, but otherwise vinyl replay on my system (unless listening intently through headphones) is as silent and "undisturbed" as CD replay, which is just as it should be when everything has been optimised and is functioning properly. I simply wouldn't tolerate anything else.
Which T/T and valve amps are you using? Sounds like something could be amiss :)
Marco.
Mr Kipling
05-01-2014, 00:43
Surely, part of the problem with regards dynamics is down to the fact that so many speakers do rather a poor job at coupling the drivers to the air in the room and thence your lugs. Anyone watch the shopping channel QVC? Bose have a regular showing. I like their rep; he's like something out of a Dickens novel. Anyway he gives always gives the same demonstration of their Waveform Technology and this is having two small speaker units mounted to a piece of plexi-glass playing a bass guitar track and placing the drivers in front of a couple lit candles. The speakers vibrate the air and the candles flicker, as you might expect. He then attaches another piece of plexie-glass that has a couple of tubes fitted to the front of the drivers and you hear the bass deepen and get extended, as you might expect. He then places the tubes in front of the candles and - magically, the flames are extinguished, as you might expect. No real magic. It's simply the air displaced by the speakers is now better coupled.
At the end of the day I suppose it all comes down to money. No doubt horn-type loading costs rather more than conventional designs.
Surely, part of the problem with regards dynamics is down to the fact that so many speakers do rather a poor job at coupling the drivers to the air in the room and thence your lugs. .
At the end of the day I suppose it all comes down to money. No doubt horn-type loading costs rather more than conventional designs.
Horn loading does bring its own set of problems though, as anyone who has heard domestic size horns will agree (except those who like them). My TV uses horn loading very similar to the Bose system and it is quite effective but it's just a TV and not hi-fi. Personally I think aside from efforts like Speedy Steve's outstanding 4 way horns the whole concept has had its day as we are no longer forced to use 6 watt amps as transistor amps with hundreds of watts a channel are now very cheap. Efficient speakers are dynamic with just a little power needed but they generally sacrifice bass depth for that efficiency. Horns that have deep bass need to be massive or multi-way (and massive).
jandl100
05-01-2014, 10:13
No, I can't go along with that unless you can be more specific. It may be the case in your system but you have weird and wonderful Omni speakers. What exactly would be holding back the system that has the power and clarity to deliver a dynamic and complex mix well from doing the same thing with a simple girl with guitar mix? Makes no sense to me.
Ah well - it seems to make sense to some folks around here. We'll just agree to disagree, Martin. :cheers:
Yes, I agree and have had that as a target for my system: to retain the slam and potency that I already have but resolve to the small scale delicacy of, say, Tom's system (and yours I guess but I haven't heard it yet).
Recent changes are definitely getting me there: the Aurorasound VIDA phono stage is on trial and the level of detail and delicacy available has taken a big step up. Strangely, a Marigo CD mat is doing something similar in my Ayre player.
Interesting.
Yep, I haven't meant to imply that it is impossible to get a system to do the big scale as well as the small scale in top quality sound, but it is a hugely difficult and imo disturbingly expensive thing to achieve, from what I have seen and heard.
I think I understand where you're coming from Jerry but what in the case of the larger MBLs up the range using more powerful sub-woofers and larger cabs? Would they not have the wall bending ability and retain the soundstage and detail you like as they use similar omni-tweeter technology?
Well, I don't think the Omni aspect has much to do with the small-scale-dynamic ability of a system or speaker; a benchmark for me are Tom's old refurbed and re-housed Quad ESL57 stats - utterly superb at small scale music, jaw-droppingly so. I've only recently managed to approach similar levels of accuracy in my own system, and I've been having a go at it, whilst retaining the adequate wallop needed for large orchestral, in the 3 or 4 years or so since I heard that system at Tom's place!
But yes, I suspect the larger MBLs would take me to a system that could do it all - but have you seen how much the fookers cost? :eek: :doh: - and then there's the amps to drive them, and worse, the room necessary to do them justice - nope, it's not even a dream for me! :)
Hi Marco,
I was referring to the clicks and pops, occasional bad pressings and mainly static I think. I am using the VPI Scout and Croft 25r and series 7 power amp and keep all my vinyl scrupulously clean using a VPI 16.5 RCM.
I can tolerate groove noise but in quiet passages the small scratches etc can disturb my listening. My biggest problem is trying to get hold of new classical recordings as most of the new stuff seems to be going via download or CD and not onto vinyl. I do buy a fair bit of second hand vinyl but classical stuff is a no no!
jandl100
05-01-2014, 10:49
Yes, classical music on LP drives me to distraction. I love the sound quality achievable and the ferreting in charity shop LP bins is a true joy, but the very high proportion of quiet bits in most classical music combined with LP surface noise are just too much of a challenge for me.
I do try but it always ends in frustration for me. :( ... we need a 'tearing your hair out' emoticon for this!
Stick with digital for classical. :thumbsup:
It's interesting to read how much others are bothered by the surface noise of vinyl, or the odd click or pop, when playing classical music.
Approximately 85% of my classical music collection is on vinyl (around 500 albums) and ALL of them have been bought second-hand, either from charity or independent record shops, most for between £2-5.
The process I use when acquiring them is to very carefully inspect the condition of each item (cover and record condition are important, but if there is a near-mint record inside a knackered cover, I'll still buy it), and decide from experience, how the record will sound after thorough cleaning on my RCM.
Therefore, most dust and grime is ignored (as I know it will come off), including the 'foxing' effect, created when records have been left in a damp place for a prolonged period of time, as are LIGHT scratches. If, by running my finger over a scratch, I can't feel it, then I'll take a chance with it. However, any deep scratches or very obvious scuffs are avoided, including dull or cloudy looking vinyl, which has lost a lot of its original shine, as this usually indicates heavy usage and wear.
Based on the above, I'll buy whatever takes my fancy, as long as it meets the necessary selection criteria.
When home, I'll begin the cleaning process. With second-hand vinyl, especially classical, I'll spend a minimum of 10 minutes cleaning each album on my RCM, carefully but thoroughly, removing as much ingrained crud as possible, before the record gets anywhere near my precious stylus! Only when I am satisfied that I can't get the record much cleaner, do I then play it.
The listening process is where a decision is made as to whether or not I will keep the album, and this depends on how quietly it plays... If, during playback, I can hear a level of noise that is unsatisfactory, first of all I will run the record through the RCM once more, just in case there is still some dirt left in the grooves, which stubbornly refuses to shift.
However, if after the final clean the noise level is still unsatisfactory, or if during playback I can hear the effects of groove damage (caused by a previous owner playing the record with a damaged stylus and/or an, incorrectly set-up cartridge), the record is returned to my local charity shop and put back into circulation, not only to allow the shop to make more money, but to give the opportunity to someone else to own the album that is less fussy than me about condition - and let's face it, compared to 'normal' folk, we audiophiles are rather fussy buggers!
So why the big story?
Well, the result of this rather careful selection process, of course, means that only the quietest and most pristine records make it into my classical music collection, and therefore noisy vinyl simply isn't a consideration!!
:exactly:
Furthermore, I generally only buy 'classic' recordings (made between the early 50s, through to the late 70s, on renowned labels), and so have managed to acquire not only some truly superb sounding recordings of some of the best classical musical performances ever made, but some rather rare (valuable) and collectable items to boot, which all adds to the satisfaction and fun factor!
You don't get that, my friends, with CDs or downloads........ ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Thanks for the information regarding selection and processing of your vinyl collection and fastidious recording cleaning. I have often ignored the opportunity to buy second hand classical vinyl as my experience with it has not been great, but taking into consideration your last post I will give this another go. I must admit my record cleaning process is a lot more rushed and less thorough than yours and I will now endeavour to pay a lot more attention and time and hopefully remove a lot more of those crackles and pops:lol:
No worries, James - glad to be of service :)
Since you've got an RCM, you owe it to yourself to try buying some more classical music on vinyl. Honestly, if you have the time, and follow my guide, you'll soon amass a rather nice collection of 'low noise' choons - and may even land a small investment! ;)
Marco.
Advert:
If you buy classical LPs from Tony at pink fish media (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/index.php) he'll clean them for you, which is useful if you don't have a cleaning machine. His prices are good, and I've never bought a dun one from him.
Advert over.
Actually, surface noise has never really been a problem for me, apart from a few LPs that got knackered through being over-played on Dansette-type record players in my youth, and those are exclusively rock/pop where the crackles add to the period charm.
Actually, surface noise has never really been a problem for me, apart from a few LPs that got knackered through being over-played on Dansette-type record players in my youth, and those are exclusively rock/pop where the crackles add to the period charm.
I can think of a couple of recordings I have on CD where vinyl-type crackles and surface noise have been deliberately added. Mainly a hip-hop thing, as I understand it.
Advert:
If you buy classical LPs from Tony at pink fish media (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/index.php) he'll clean them for you, which is useful if you don't have a cleaning machine. His prices are good, and I've never bought a dun one from him.
Advert over.
Always pleased to give Tony some business, but for all those other times when you're near a charity shop, somewhere in Timbuktu...... ;)
Marco.
I can think of a couple of recordings I have on CD where vinyl-type crackles and surface noise have been deliberately added. Mainly a hip-hop thing, as I understand it.
Yes, there's some 'needle noise' added to 'Bring It On' by Gomez and to 'Odelay' by Beck. I'm so used to the places where my old LPs skip or stick that even listening to those recordings in a different format, eg via Spotify, I get ready to jump out of my chair and move the needle forward!
Marco's record cleaning regime for second hand buys and all that other fiddly turntable/arm/cartridge etc. setting up malarkey reminds me why I don't bother with vinyl anymore. I was tempted after reading stuff on here but ultimately did not bother and so the LP's remain in the attic. The other result is I cannot remember what records sound like and so do not have to bother trying to make my digital sources sound like them. So if you don't want to get tied in to the worry of the making digital sound analogue cycle ditch your turntables!
Lodgesound
05-01-2014, 17:46
Marco.....
I love your charity shop thing.........this is what I do with unwanted machinery before I dump it......I NEVER sell on any technical machinery from my studio....it is either given away for a peppercorn sum or destroyed and scrapped...
Marco's record cleaning regime for second hand buys and all that other fiddly turntable/arm/cartridge etc. setting up malarkey reminds me why I don't bother with vinyl anymore.
Fair enough, Andrew! :eek: :lol:
Thing is, I have a MASSIVE passion for listening to and collecting vinyl records, and plenty of time to indulge myself in the hobby... I find the whole cleaning process rather therapeutic!
Marco.
Marco.....
I love your charity shop thing.........this is what I do with unwanted machinery before I dump it......I NEVER sell on any technical machinery from my studio....it is either given away for a peppercorn sum or destroyed and scrapped...
Nice one, Stewart. At home, we're big on all forms of recycling! :)
Marco.
Fair enough, Andrew! :eek: :lol:
Thing is, I have a MASSIVE passion for listening to and collecting vinyl records, and plenty of time to indulge myself in the hobby... I find the whole cleaning process rather therapeutic!
Marco.
I read that post about cleaning records too Marco, we are very different animals ole' fellah? If there was anything that would put me off vinyl even more, it was reading that post. You must spend a good deal of time doing it, but if you enjoy it then work away I say, each to their own. I expect pulling an audio server apart, ripping and scanning CD's would have a similar allergic reaction at chez Marco's, but I love doing it and the end result just makes me smile ;)
jandl100
05-01-2014, 18:28
Step 1 - take classical CD out of jewel box
Step 2 - put it in CD player
Step 3 - press play
Sorted :D
Cleaning records is a PITA, so is ripping CDs, especially if you're as lazy as I am. If I was rich, I'd employ someone to do all that stuff.
Cleaning records is a PITA, so is ripping CDs, especially if you're as lazy as I am. If I was rich, I'd employ someone to do all that stuff.
Me too... :lol:
Cleaning records is a PITA, so is ripping CDs, especially if you're as lazy as I am. If I was rich, I'd employ someone to do all that stuff.
Totally agree. In fact I am so lazy that if I was rich I would be hiring so many people that unemployment in my community would drop off to nothing. I'd particularly like a secretary to type my posts for me. I would still dictate them, of course, Churchill fashion, whilst clutching a cigar and a large brandy. I'd even have someone to put the bin out for me even though it is only once a week and I only have to move it a yard. Wealth is wasted on the rich.
I read that post about cleaning records too Marco, we are very different animals ole' fellah? If there was anything that would put me off vinyl even more, it was reading that post. You must spend a good deal of time doing it, but if you enjoy it then work away I say, each to their own. I expect pulling an audio server apart, ripping and scanning CD's would have a similar allergic reaction at chez Marco's, but I love doing it and the end result just makes me smile ;)
You're right on all counts, dude! :) The very thought of doing anything other than the most basic of tasks with a computer, fills me with HORROR! :eek:
I just love the whole tactile thing with vinyl, and how you have to work to get the best out of it.
I also love working with NOS cassette tape (using my Nakamichi), and enjoy nothing more than spending hours making up compliations, for playing in the car, of my (many 100s) of 7 and 12" singles from the 80s (all pristinely cleaned first on my RCM). You may not believe it, but the sound quality is stunning!
When I recently bought Del a new (second-hand) car, one of the main criteria was that it had to have a quality tape deck fitted (the Merc A-Class she ended up with has a Blaupunkt), and not a CD player or anything remotely more modern!! :nono: :eyebrows:
Marco.
You have tape decks in your cars? :eek: my goodness Marco, that's soooo last century ;)
My car plays .mp3 files from a USB stick and I have oodles of music at the tips of my fingers from the controls on the steering wheel - I love it and have hundreds of albums available in less space than a single cassette case :eyebrows:
Hehehehe... Well, as they say, each to his or her own. Being 'current', unless I consider it warranted, doesn't interest me one iota! ;)
Marco.
You have tape decks in your cars? :eek: my goodness Marco, that's soooo last century ;)
My car plays .mp3 files from a USB stick and I have oodles of music at the tips of my fingers from the controls on the steering wheel - I love it and have hundreds of albums available in less space than a single cassette case :eyebrows:
I bluetooth music from my phone to the car stereo...
all controllable from the steering wheel.
top trump! :ner:
Can’t really hear a HiFi in our current Landrover due to lack of roof, windscreen and the feckin chickens in the back.
Bet the chickens would prefer digital though. :D
Getting a turntable in the dashboard soon....
direct drive of course, belt drive would be all over the place hitting speed bumps :)
top trump! :ner:
Ah, you have me there Gaz, I could do the same as I have Bluetooth in my car, only trouble is I don't have a smart-phone which is soooo last century :lol:
Just like most of your frocks! :lol:
Marco.
Stratmangler
05-01-2014, 20:47
only trouble is I don't have a smart-phone which is soooo last century :lol:
Which smartphone would that be then?
From last century :eyebrows:
My car plays .mp3 files from a USB stick and I have oodles of music at the tips of my fingers from the controls on the steering wheel
The only ripping I do of any kind is to make 320k mp3 files for the USB drive in my car. Sounds more than good enough in that environment.
Gentlemen, only one thing counts in the world of In Car Entertainment and that is fitting a subwoofer so large and powerful that as you drive along people will think the world is coming to an end. No-one is impressed by a USB stick.
PaulStewart
06-01-2014, 00:39
Gentlemen, only one thing counts in the world of In Car Entertainment and that is fitting a subwoofer so large and powerful that as you drive along people will think the world is coming to an end. No-one is impressed by a USB stick.
We need a like button on here :lol:
It's early days yet, but that one could be nominated for post of the year! :eyebrows:
Marco.
anthonyTD
06-01-2014, 09:31
:lol::lol::lol: Nice one Martin.
A...
Gentlemen, only one thing counts in the world of In Car Entertainment and that is fitting a subwoofer so large and powerful that as you drive along people will think the world is coming to an end. No-one is impressed by a USB stick.
Gentlemen, only one thing counts in the world of In Car Entertainment and that is fitting a subwoofer so large and powerful that as you drive along people will think the world is coming to an end. No-one is impressed by a USB stick.
:lol: priceless.
:lol: priceless.
Replying on topic, took out a London Digital Recording of Bruckner 5/CSO/Solti from 1980. Gatefold. There's quite a lot to say about Bruckner symphonies, but the entire inside and part of the back cover was a treatise on new digital technology, quite accurately forecasting the introduction of the DVD and even its size.
Strikes me that Polygram considered the technology more important to discuss than the music - has much changed in 30 years?
As if to emphasise what could be achieved with the 'new' digital mastering process, some passages are so quiet that I had to turn up the volume to hear anything at all, then 5 seconds later the windows got blasted out.
Hope this is readable to those interested.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/855/m4og.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/nrm4ogj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/716/mkwl.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/jwmkwlj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/513/ee1d.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/e9ee1dj)
I'd particularly like a secretary to type my posts for me. I would still dictate them, of course, Churchill fashion, whilst clutching a cigar and a large brandy.
I was imagining more Barbara Cartland..
I was imagining more Barbara Cartland..
Then I would just be posting the same thing over and over again.
Actually now I think about it you are right....
It's the other way around, surely? If it can do Rammstein and Shostakovich well then it will piss it with the girly guitar. I have heard plenty of systems that do girly guitar well but crack up with the big dynamics and complex mixes of rock music because they don't have enough power and the speakers are far too small and compromised.
It's just physics..
For example, going loud means more heat dissipation in the coils so thicker wire and so heavier voice coils therefore more momentum so harder to stop and start with only small signals = more smearing at low volumes and micro details (same for all coil based drivers). You can go with multiple drivers of course but then have integration, crossover and phase difficulties becoming more problematic in return for lessening the previous problem..
Extra efficient drivers have their own compromises too.
Essentially each speaker design has it's own performance window of potential greatness and you can slightly widen (and narrow to hone in on some fetishistic aspect) it by clever design. However, loud/dynamic and quiet/detailed are often at opposite ends of the spectrum.
I doubt people have the same standards at both ends of the taste spectrum - people who favour one aspect will be more honed into the lack of that in the system of another who prefers the other and vice versa. Therefore each will say the other's speaker is lacking in their favoured aspect, but will claim theirs is equally capable at the other aspect (because their ears aren't tuned in to hear it..). Or you get the guy who's adament that their's is better at everything no matter if they're plainly wrong :D such is the hobby.
Or in a nutshell 'really good loudspeakers are always going to be expensive. And big.'
Or... Diddy-sized squawk boxes are for weeny-boys with a penchant for pant wetting! :D
Marco.
Or in a nutshell 'really good loudspeakers are always going to be expensive. And big.'
Nope: small and fast with good bass design (although my idea of small might not be other's idea - your A2s are probably still classed as small in my mind).
I have the impression that narrow baffles will give me more of what I want - 3Dness.
Or in a nutshell 'really good loudspeakers are always going to be expensive. And big.'
Tell that to Joe Ackroyd. ;)
Tell that to Joe Ackroyd. ;)
lol I know there is this whole Joe Akroyd thing going on and I have never heard any Royds that I can recall anyway so I have no opinion.
I'm not keen on small loudspeakers. Doesn't matter how 'good' they are. It's too much of a compromise.
Nat: On a scale of miniature/small/medium/large/gargantuan I would calls the A2 as medium.
Royds are infectiously musical sounding little beasts, but hampered, as all small speakers are (read as anything that uses less than a 12" bass driver), by a lack of overall scale and 'heft'.
However, if such things don't matter to you, then on the end of a 'peppy' sounding solid-state amp, they're rather fun! :)
Marco.
Or in a nutshell 'really good loudspeakers are always going to be expensive. And big.'
Or... Diddy-sized squawk boxes are for weeny-boys with a penchant for pant wetting! :D
Marco.
And here I was thinking that the room they were in was the important thing:doh:
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