Would like advice on amplifiers please.

[Mr Trench]

Hello

I am new to the forum and know very little about hi-fi. However I am determined to improve the sound from my system and was told that to do that I needed to get good speakers and amplifier and forget the rest as they don't make much difference. Makes sense to me.

So I bought some Tannoy Precision speakers yesterday to replace by ancient Celestion 5s. They arrive tomorrow. They will be used with an old Dual turntable, the cheapest Cambridge Audio amp bought a few years ago and a cheapish Philips CD player again bought about 5 years ago.

What should I upgrade next, is it the amp? And if so, what would you suggest? I have no specific budget in mind, I could afford to spend a similar amount to the Tannoys if that is where the sweet spot lies. By this I mean that I want the sound to be fantastic, but I'm not interested in getting too geeky about it and spending hundreds on speaker cables for example. I use the term geeky not as an insult - I am geeky about lots of things including books and music itself, but I mean to say that the hifi equipment itself is of no interest to me and will not be a hobby per se - all I want is a great sound.

[Tarzan]

Hi mate, ( great Christian name by the way) you do not state what model Tannoys you have 6.2, 6.3, why not ask the shop where they were purchased from for ideas, l am sure they will know what works and does not work with your new speeks.:)

[Macca]

No don't ask the shop they will have a vested interest in selling you something (if they are any good at sales :)

Idealy we need to know exact model of speaker, amp and TT, size of the room and the sort of music you listen to.

[Mr Trench]

Crikey.

OK, they are tannoy precision 6.4 speakers I just bought. The amplifier I currently have is Cambridge Audio A1 v3.0 integrated amplifier. The CD player is Philips 723, although I have an option to switch that with a Marantz CD5004 that I have presently in the living room hooked into the TV system. The turntable is a cheap dual - cheapest you could get in the mid 80s.

The room is about 5 metres by 2.5 metres and I have the stack in the centre of the longest wall.

I like listening to a wide variety of music. Lots of New Wave (Cure, Comsat Angels, Talking Heads, Television, Magazine) and indie (sparklehorse, nirvana, Beak, Portishead and other grunge). Lots of ECM jazz (Garbarek, Jarrett...). Nu folk (Keaton Henson, The Middle East...). Classical (Satie, Ligeti, Cage piano but also Baroque and choral polyphonic such as Palestrina and love Bach). Blues (Led Zep, Stones, Black Keys, Seasick Steve, Howlin Wolf...). And a little rock (Beatles, Floyd, Yes).

Thanks

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Andy,
I think you should tread carefully here, as I believe you've been given some rather dodgy advice already by whoever told you that your turntable and CD player are fine. You've taken that advice and it looks like you've chucked quite a pile of cash at some new speakers. They're big and sophisticated speakers and you have quite a small room, so you need to match and site them properly.

If you don't want to keep your system evolving and would rather come up with a solution that will last for a long(ish) time, then we should try really hard to get this right for you.
How much money do you have available to put into this project and would you be happy with secondhand kit?

[hifi_dave]

As Chris says, the advice you have been given is ridiculous. I would suggest you ignore anything else from that source as suspicious.

What is your budget for the amp and bear in mind, to do the system justice, the turntable andd CD should be improved ?

[Mr Trench]

Hi

Let's say spending £5k to £6k more - ish.

- I listen to CDs a lot.
- I have loads of music stored on the hard drive of my PC, which would be good to access.
- I don't play records very often.

I would be happy with second hand in principle, but in practise I was worried re the speakers as I believe they age/deteriorate badly? Happy to take advice here.

Bought the tannoys based on reviews: believed that the speakers are the most important and everywhere I looked these tannoys come out with strong reviews. Nearly bought a pair of PMC OBs off ebay for about the same amount, but pulled out when I realised how old they were. Imagine that something electronic such as an amp doesn't age so badly - so second hand seems to make sense. CD players seem to age as they stop playing CDs (replaced the tiny CD player twice now in my kitchen: Denon initially and now the Yamaha replacement is refusing to play). Hence although I was eyeing up a Wadia CD player I again didn't follow through on the fear that second hand may already have worn out.

As you can probably tell, I know very little here. And in all honesty, all I want is a great sound at a reasonable (say total 8k) price. Best I have heard so far was a streaming system coming through those long pointy speakers in B&O. But that's gunna cost me £15k to fit out the house - felt sure that half of that is marketing and design costs - not sound quality...

[Mr Trench]

Just measured my room properly. It is 7.5m by 3.5m.

[hifi_dave]

Good speakers go on for decades but CD players and cartridges don't. Personally, I wouldn't buy s/hand of either of them.

That's quite a healthy budget there, so you will be able to put together a good system.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's a more appropriate size for those Tannoys than the dimensions you guessed at!
The budget you have allocated is more than enough to do the job properly.
I'd put about £1,200 into a good used turntable/arm and a new cartridge and also a cheapish phono stage - you will almost certainly find that this will have you listening to your records much more frequently!
Then I'd allocate about £2 - 2.5K to a CD player and digital to analogue converter (the DAC will help with the computer music) with another £1.5 on a used amp. It shouldn't cost more than a few hundred to get your music files off the PC and into the hi-fi and for them to sound really good.
You don't want to mess about with cables, but you also shouldn't buy the wrong ones, so allocate some cash for these too - a couple of hundred should see you right there. There may be change! Use it to buy music!!

Don't forget to spend some real care in siting the equipment - that can turn a potentially expensive acoustic disaster into a heavenly delight.

[hifi_dave]

The new Rega Saturn-r DAC/player will deal with your computer music and is also an excellent CD player. Partner that with a Rega Elicit-r amp,having ample power for your speakers and a very good internal MM phono stage. Bung on a Rega turntable for a plug n play solution for your LPs. Job done and well within your budget.

[chris@panteg]

Can't go far wrong with Dave's suggestion really .

[synsei]

If you would rather buy new gear Andy, Dave's recommendation is pretty close to the mark. If you wanted to save a bit of dosh you could even plump for Rega's fabulous Brio R amp which should drive your Tannoy's with ease. If you talk to Dave nicely he may even cut you a good deal on some cables too ;)

[synsei]

I think if it had to be Rega then a Brio R would do the job admirably :)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, it might, but the amp doesn't have to be a Rega!

[DSJR]

At this point, DO NOT consider the likes of a Brio R, or anything remotely in it's class!

I come from the era of 'Source First' and since I know cheaper 1980's Duals backwards and also own a Philips CD723 (which I souped up to some effect), I would in your instance, steer you towards the sources..

The Dual 505 series can go to an OM20 stylus in the supplied Ortofon cartridge, but no further. The structure of the deck, resonances in the very-low-mass tonearm and often plasticy plinth preclude any further upgrades of this part. The CD player is nice sounding, but rather bland in the wide scheme of things and the 'upgrades' I made to mine don't take the basic sonics very much further forward I'm afraid.

So, where do we go? Good used decks from Pro-ject and Rega can be had for under £150. I liked the old Pro-ject 1.5 and 2 models from the 90's and an RB series Planar 2 or preferably 3 (The Tannoys will need treble refinement in the sources I believe) can be easily serviced and the arms can take almost anything out there. As for CD players, no need to spend thousands nowadays, but on the used market, Denon's upper models (800 series and over) are nice and certain vintage Arcams are good bets (Alpha 7se, 8se, 9 and Diva 72 upwards are good bets) as well as the oft recommended Sony model with fixed laser (can't remember the model). Other used types such as certain Rotels (965's) and the now harsh Marantz CD63 KI signature could have a 'HiFi' tone which I suspect the Tannoys would pull apart.

Hope the above isn't too confusing for you. As long as the speakers like the room they're in, they'll be the slave to what they're fed with. Fortunately, and to the detriment of the lower end 'new' market, there are many good used buys out there and chaps here to help you :)

Good luck...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Look at the budget available Dave - there's plenty there to deal with sources and an amp.

[PaulStewart]

Hi Andy,

To give you an idea why people here may think your initial advice as wrong, as in computing in HiFi it's a case of GIGO or garbage in, garbage out. Getting the source components right is essential, because you can have the best speakers and amp in the world but unless they are fed with a good signal it will just be louder not better. If it were me, I would try and hear as many source options as you can.

I have to confess, I'm not a huge fan of Rega, it does a job but I have never liked they way the stuff is "voiced". Looking at your taste in music, a good second hand idler or direct drive turntable may well be better for you. As for digital sources, most quality DACs will take a signal from either USB or Firewire to connect to PC or Macs so the can be combined with a good quality multi disc player to give good results from digital sources. If you're in west London, you would be welcome to stop by and hear some source options and I'm sure others here would say the same.

Cheers

[Macca]

They are properly serious speakers so I will forgive you for not posting your room measurements in English ;)

You definately need a more powerful amp and a better TT. Hi-fi Dave's suggested kit list is pretty good, after all no need to spend all the budget if you don't need to. Personally I'd go for an amp with a stiffer power supply than the Elicit and a Direct Drive TT but it won't make a massive difference. You will end up with a fantastic system so enjoy.

[Mr Trench]

So in summary so far:

Amp = reg brio r. They seem to be about £600 new. DSJR says don't buy this or anything in that class. But as he doesn't give an alternative I have no idea... :)

CD & streamed music = Rega Saturn-r DAC, which is about £1,500 new.

TT = look for a second hand Pro-ject 1.5 and 2 models from the 90's OR an RB series Planar 2 or preferably 3. Or Paul suggests getting an Idler - but when I google that it seems to be a kind of design rather than a brand.

I also need to refine the trebles. Don't know how to do that. Is there a way I can avoid it?

Thanks so much guys for your advice. :) I was worried it would take me ages to save up, but this all sounds quite affordable.

[Macca]

I know like Clarkson I am always banging on about more power but I don't think a Brio-R is hefty enough for those speakers? There is a lot of cone area to control.

[Mr Trench]

So Macca would you say Rega Elicit-r amp is better? Someone said that was barmy earlier, but I cannot find that post now, maybe they changed their mind.

[pjdowns]

I'd agree with Martin.

If you can get hold of a good pre/power combo it'll make all the difference...

CD wise, look out for a Meridian 206 Delta Sigma or Naim CDI like mine... Great machines and I believe the Meridian is a little more reliable (but not quite as good as the Naim).

If you have to have new equipment then Naim still make impressive kit, so would be worth a look.

Afraid I can't help with TTs as I don't have a lot of experience with them although there are a hell of a lot of people on here who do.

Personally I don't like Rega amps much but I understand they can be good as are there CD players.

Streaming, if you can get hold of a Squeezebox Touch S/H then jump at the chance, add a DAC such as the excellent Beresford Bushmaster II and you'll be quids in :)

Hope this helps and good luck with your journey :)

Paul.

[Macca]

So Macca would you say Rega Elicit-r amp is better? Someone said that was barmy earlier, but I cannot find that post now, maybe they changed their mind.

The Elicit R has quite a bit more power than the Brio so I think that would be a better match for your speakers but as said before the amp does not have to be a Rega. You are spoiled for choice with good inexpensive solid state amps these days.

[MikeMusic]

Go to the very start. Improve your mains. Makes a big difference
Consumer unit if ancient should yield improvement if changed as will a dedicated line for the hifi.
If not or that sounds too serious go for unswitched sockets for each piece of kit, check you have a nice solid earth.
You can DIY this if you are up to it, but this is serious twiddling so if not get a sparky in, don't mess with electrics if a novice.
After that have a look at your CD and maybe by then you will have a 'need' to get into vinyl listening to what most people here say
:)
Keep the Celestions around as I wonder if the Tannoys will be too good for the rest of the system until upgraded.
There are members here whose systems you could listen to that will give clues and direction for the future
Then there's cables, interconnects and supports all of which make really surprising differences :)
I was sceptical until I heard, and could barely believe the differences

[Mr Trench]

Thanks Martin. Honestly I don't care about splitting hairs - if I asked 2 hifi experts I'm sure I would get 3 opinions! ;)

If that amp is good enough then that will be fine.

[Macca]

Thanks Martin. Honestly I don't care about splitting hairs - if I asked 2 hifi experts I'm sure I would get 3 opinions! ;)

.

Oh, I'm no expert nor am I a qualified medical professional :) Any amp with enough power will do a fine job. Your CD player will be fine for the moment - the beauty of digital is that even cheap implementations are near-perfect. If you are going to spend some money it has to be on the TT as you don't get good vinyl replay on the cheap. And get a record cleaning machine too.

[PaulStewart]

Hi Andy,

David at MCRU has a PTP Lenco for sale with a Jelco arm and Benz cart, you can see it HERE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FULLY-RESTORED-LENCO-GL75-TURNTABLE-PTP-TOP-PLATE-JELCO-ARM-BENZ-CARTRDIGE-/350904543424?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item51b38a68c0) , this would make a superb source in my opinion. Talk to David direct if I were you as avoiding eBay fees may be possible :)

Best of luck, setting up a good system is a great journey.

[anthonyTD]

Quit agree!
A...
As Chris says, the advice you have been given is ridiculous. I would suggest you ignore anything else from that source as suspicious.

What is your budget for the amp and bear in mind, to do the system justice, the turntable andd CD should be improved ?

[hifi_dave]

I was suggesting tried and tested, good quality equipment, which is plug n play and will work those Tannoys well in the room. It's also well within the budget.

[Yomanze]

Oh, I'm no expert nor am I a qualified medical professional :) Any amp with enough power will do a fine job. Your CD player will be fine for the moment - the beauty of digital is that even cheap implementations are near-perfect. If you are going to spend some money it has to be on the TT as you don't get good vinyl replay on the cheap. And get a record cleaning machine too.

Hmm well my DAC easily beats my TT setup, which is no slouch at all. The difference is that it's easy to get vinyl to sound "nice" and very rare for digital to sound like good analogue.

[Macca]

Hmm well my DAC easily beats my TT setup, which is no slouch at all. The difference is that it's easy to get vinyl to sound "nice" and very rare for digital to sound like good analogue.

Well we are drifting a bit here but I suspect the O/P has enough to think about already. Personally I regard vinyl and digital as two very different animals and have to confess that I don't really understand why anyone wants to get their digital set up to sound like analogue. Maybe worth a new thread...

[Mr Trench]

Hello again. I hope you guys don't mind me asking these questions...

My tannoys arrived today. I set them up, and as I only have one output from my amp, I used the supplied cables to cross between the hi and lo frequency inputs in the back of the speakers. Then I plugged in my speaker cable to the hi frequency input of the tannoys.

Having already level set my expectations, by playing through my old celestion 5s first (which really don't sound too bad), I switched to my new speakers and pressed 'play'. 'Play' is almost a pun here, as I chose Magazine's 'Secondhand Daylight' as my first CD on the new speakers.

It was terrible - sounded like the cheapest tranny from the 70s - like the ones I used to listen to John Peel to in bed after I was supposed to be asleep.

I'm not panicking, I reckon there may be three causes but need your help:

1. Is this what is meant by 'running your new speakers in'? So I need to keep playing like this for hours until they sound any good?
2. Is it because my Cambridge Audio amp hasn't got the oomph to drive them?
3. Is it because I didn't rewire my entire house with new electricity cables beforehand? ;)

Looks like I may need that new amp sooner than I thought...

Cheers

Andy

[Audioman]

Try connecting to the low frequency input first. Cambridge amp should have easily enough grunt. Tannoys are amplifier fussy though. Try another CD -maybe some well recorded acoustic music.

[The Grand Wazoo]

New speakers need to loosen up a bit - they'll get better the more you play them for a couple of weeks

[synsei]

Check the speaker connections at both ends of the cables just in case in all the excitement you have wired them up out of phase Andy which would account for the bass light sound, it is easily done. Secondly, I have owned an example of your current amp and although they sound good for what they are mine struggled to drive a pair of KEF Q35 mk2's (power handling 100w ~ sensitivity 91db) to decent sound levels without sounding strained, in fact with the volume control set to 12 o'clock the amps protection circuit would cut in and mute the sound during dynamic passages of music. To put it bluntly your current amp is not man enough to drive your Tannoys, sorry... :eyebrows:

[Roy S]

Then I plugged in my speaker cable to the hi frequency input of the tannoys.



Maybe you're only listening to the tweeters then?

[DSJR]

Hi Andy,


I have to confess, I'm not a huge fan of Rega, it does a job but I have never liked they way the stuff is "voiced".
Cheers

Apologies to the OP if I misunderstood what he is after...

Paul, I hear you on the quote above, but with greatest respect, I feel I should add that the original clamshell stuff and the current issue amps of theirs have more in common than the '2000' cased models in between..

Anyway, loads of options if the budget's there :)

[hifi_dave]

When you say 'supplied cables, I am hoping you mean short jumpers to connect the positive terminals together and the negative terminals together, thereby running the speakers without bi-wiring. You then put your speaker cables on the bottom or top terminals and away you go. Make sure the speaker terminals are screwed up nice and tight.

Running the speakers in should give a slight improvement but won't make a bad speaker sound good.

The Cambridge amp should provide a reasonable sound. It can be improved but it shouldn't sound like a cheap 'tranny'.

Upgraded mains wiring should make a tiny improvement but won't make a 'tranny' type of sound any better.

Let us know how it goes.

[Roy S]

As Dave said there should be 'jumpers' for your speakers (as far as I can gather) looking like this

http://www.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/images/BristolShow2012/Tannoy_Precision_terminals.jpg

[hifi_dave]

Correct. So it's dead easy to plug your speaker cables in without fuss but make sure the terminals are done up nice and tight or else you are likely to get just the tweeter's output. Just like a 'tranny' radio.

[Jerry B]

How about a Primare I30 as an option for the amp?

[awkwardbydesign]

Just seen this thread, can't someone pop round and listen? There may be easy answers if we knew exactly what is going on.

[Reffc]

Just seen this thread, can't someone pop round and listen? There may be easy answers if we knew exactly what is going on.

Good suggestion.

There seems to be a number of issues here. Before jumping in with both feet and pulling the trigger on buying ANYTHING new, some common sense checks have to come into play.

1. Speakers will need many hours for the driver suspension to break in properly and will in all probability sound bass light until this happens. There is one active bass driver and two passive (ie two which are not electrically driven) cones all of which have suspension the will become more supple with use. Until that happens, the driver suspension will be stiff enough to very audibly affect tonal balance (ie they'll sound bright). Allow a minimum of 50 to 100 hours run-in. They should have told you this at the shop;
2. Load: the 6.4's, whilst sensitive at 90dB, may still require more grunt than the numbers suggest. 8 Ohms and 90dB seems on the face of it an easy load but as no figures are given for the impedance curve, and only "nominal" figures quoted, plus the phase angles are unknown, they could (as with most speakers) thrive on more than just a handful of watts. However, not all Tannoys are difficult loads and the precision series are nothing like the older (or newer) larger Dual concentrics which are VERY amplifier fussy due partly to having an impedance curve like the Alps. The precisions are a different design and should, on the face of it, provide a more benign load. Your amp should drive them to sensible levels, but until run-in, they will sound unbalanced and bright. Give the time, dont run them too loud and see what you think after say 100 hours.
3. After 100 hours, listen again. If they harden up with volume, it could be the amp isn't man enough. You don't need monster amplification. 40 to 60 watts per channel should be plenty.

RE source components...The Dual is a classic deck but as I think DJSR mentioned, is quite limited due to being built down to a price (plinth resonance and tonearm quality leave something to be desired). A basic project deck such as the Project Debut or Debut Carbon are plug and play, come with reasonable cartridges and are capable of getting the most from higher quality cartridges. All for under £400 delivered. I'd leave that until you have the speakers sorted and have made your mind up about the amp.

RE amp. Wait until the speakers are properly run-in. You may find they sound fine with your present amp, in which case you save money towards music and a better source. If not, there's plenty of used bargains out there and you won't have to spend more than £500 on a really good used amp and most likely less than that.

As Hifi Dave suggests, buying TT's and cartridges used is a gamble. When these days you can get such competent decks for so little, it's not worth the risk unless you know the history of the deck/arm/cart which is unlikely.

However, before you look into any of this, the shop ought to have advised on compatibility, particularly with your amp and the recommended room positioning.

If possible, site them away from side walls by at least 750mm or so and back from rear walls by 300 to 500mm. You may need to play around with exact placement to see what sounds best and this could well entail moving your listening position. Compared with your Celestions, they will sound brighter....firstly because they bass drivers need running in and secondly because some older Celestions are, how can I politely suggest it, a little dull up top. You will adjust to the changes, and the brightness should dissipate after a while of running-in.

Next, look at the room furnishings. Have you hard acoustically reflective flooring or carpets/rugs? If no rugs, get some down! Bear in mind first reflection points where your seating position is too as these in a sparsely furnished room can mess up phase coherence and imaging.

Finally, until run-in, don't toe-in the speakers, but fire them straight down the room as most drivers have a dropped off-axis response compared with on-axis so this will have the effect of dropping the enthusiastic treble down a little.

Perhaps you can have an extended listen with music you're familiar with and then report back with what you think sounds bad. Keep the listening volumes moderate, don't play too loud to begin with. After a time, see if this changes. If not, then you may well end up throwing cash at changing the amp and sorting the listening room out. Your room size should be ok for the 6.4's but I agree with others in that in your shoes, I would not take further advice from that particular dealer as you seem to have been relieved of a not inconsiderable sum of money with little or no advice on speaker set-up and amp matching, let alone system matching as a whole.

Happy to help with advice if needed.

The moral of the story is never buy any component based purely on ANY review (5 star or otherwise) because that tells you nothing about how it will react with your room and system, and be choosy about which dealers you entrust your hard-earned cash to. Most reputable dealers should be only too happy to provide some common sense advice based on asking a few simple questions. It's just a shame that this particular dealer seemingly hasn't done that.