View Full Version : Kit and cable burn in
MikeMusic
20-12-2013, 10:13
Just occurred to me there is a way this can be tested.
Needs a lot of kit and some diligent record keeping
Take 2 (or more ?) of the brand new item to be tested, identical age, batch etc.
Use a stable system that will have no other items changed
Use the first for a fixed amount of time to be agreed in advance.
After the time has passed take a second brand new one and compare it to the first that has run in (or not)
Put the second away again
Play the first for another agreed time.
Bring back the 2nd and compare
Seems a good method if you feel the need.
My view is if burn in is so subtle it isnt worth the thought.
Have fun.
Listen to and enjoy the music
Gordon Steadman
20-12-2013, 10:51
Seems a good method if you feel the need.
My view is if burn in is so subtle it isnt worth the thought.
Have fun.
Listen to and enjoy the music
My thought is that is doesn't matter a damn anyway. All that matters is the music, otherwise its all pointless.
MikeMusic
20-12-2013, 10:54
Seems a good method if you feel the need.
My view is if burn in is so subtle it isnt worth the thought.
Have fun.
Listen to and enjoy the music
Was thinking of putting it to bed for others.
I'm 99% sure of it, from various items of kit.
It's more music I'm after - no.1
No.2 is to spread the word so others get more music
MikeMusic
20-12-2013, 10:56
My thought is that is doesn't matter a damn anyway. All that matters is the music, otherwise its all pointless.
Music 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
The kit is the medium to get more of it and more out of it.
All that matters is the music, otherwise its all pointless.
:lol: again agreed Gordon, this is getting to be a habit, I shall have to do something about that ;)
Gordon Steadman
20-12-2013, 12:29
:lol: again agreed Gordon, this is getting to be a habit, I shall have to do something about that ;)
Oh dear, we can't have that!!
Have this one on me.... all PCs are a waste of space and mains leads at over £600 per meter make the iPad look very good value indeed:eyebrows:
Happy Christmas:cool:
Although I havent heard burnin in my own system I would be interested if someone could show me it in theirs. How that might happen heaven knows.
Don't know about burn-in but I'm pretty burnt out after spending the past few days tweaking the Rhapsody crossovers :steam:
I've been auditioning some trial pre-amp boards over the last couple of weeks. In an attempt to level the playing field I spent some considerable time 'burning in' some of the new electronics - it made absolutely zero difference and sounded exactly the same when first plugged in to when 'burnt in'.
chris@panteg
21-12-2013, 17:40
It's all in the mind ? You're just getting used to a change in cable or component.
brucew268
22-12-2013, 11:24
Some years ago, I was auditioning speaker cables. One set was new and I had more than the standard weekend whilst the hi-fi shop was closed, so I played it round the clock and was out of the house most of time. Through those 72 hours of playing, the speaker wires showed significant change. Ex: At one point the bass became rather bloated and too loud, and later tamed down.
I recently shortened a pair of IC's with RCA's. The sound was distinctly worse after I hooked them back up. I ignored it and played them round the clock for a few days. Then I listened again and compared them to an unmodified copy of the same IC. Th modified IC had improved significantly and was now the equal of the unmodified IC.
Some wires I've not noticed a difference during 'burn-in' that was clear or more than the changes of SQ due to time of day. Others have surprised me with the amount of change. I've tried a number of tweaks and improvements over the years, many of which people will argue endlessly about on these forums. But my listening experience has defied expectations. There were many times where I expected to hear an improvement and heard no difference. Sometimes What I heard euphonically emphasised part of the sound spectrum but ruined other parts. Some were significant improvements.
These experiences -- whether in tweaks, upgrades, cable changes, cable burn-in, equipment burn-in, or the like -- more often than not were the opposite of my expectations. And in most cases I was careful not to listen for a long time so that my ears became attuned to the sound. Some people hear what they expect to hear. Expectations can become self-fulfilling. But my experiences are more often the opposite of that.
Your experience may differ. But I won't insult your hi-fi or say that you have wool in your ears if you don't have the arrogance to claim everyone is imagining things.
Wish i still had the energy to care.
I don't think anything can be properly called 'tested' in this context unless the testing's done 'blind', otherwise you're relying solely on your own audio memory as to whether there's a difference in sound after days/weeks/months of burn-in. You would need a glamorous assistant to switch between burnt-in and non-burnt-in components, and to do so without you knowing whether a switch had in fact been made.
Personally I think it's all down to ears adjusting to differences rather than the sound changing over time, especially for passive items like cables.
walpurgis
22-12-2013, 12:10
I won't insult your hi-fi or say that you have wool in your ears if you don't have the arrogance to claim everyone is imagining things.
But they are in my opinion!
But they are in my opinion!
But Marco wishes us to keep those opinions of OTHERS to ourselves.
Although I havent heard burnin in my own system I would be interested if someone could show me it in theirs. How that might happen heaven knows.
Well I was a sceptic (still am) but have an open mind. Two things I my lifetime of listening to music have clearly changed after use and they 'should' be easy to replicate?
Get hold of a new Rega DAC and do a comparison to a well run in one? I for one can tell the difference. But that begs the question are they identical in every way?
I have Sennheiser HD 650's and was sent a new pair by Sennheiser when the head band broke. I bought a new headband so had two pairs, one with a few years use, the other brand new. Now the spec may have changed, but the old pair sounded significantly better than the new. I tried them on a mate without telling him what was going on and he said he preferred the used pair sound-wise. So those are easily repeatable comparisons and might help, might not :scratch:
As for cable burn in and other stuff over they years - not been able to effectively tell a difference between them after use in nearly all cases. But warming up equipment, most definitely.
All in the head? Could well be as the human ear is not an effective test appliance and what we hear changes from day to day, dependant on numerous factors let alone the surrounding ambient noise and dirty mains feeding our kit. But who cares at the end of the day, life's too short just play some toons and relax :D
Gordon Steadman
22-12-2013, 13:22
But who cares at the end of the day, life's too short just play some toons and relax :D
:cool:
what we hear changes from day to day, dependant on numerous factors let alone the surrounding ambient noise and dirty mains feeding our kit. D
Very true. there is often more than one potential variable at play. During the summer just gone I was trying out various combinations of kit and cables during the evenings after work. Some days the sound just wasn't holding my attention, sounding bland, even with the exact same combinations I had tried previously. I was struggling to understand why this was.
It turned out that I had ringing in my ears as a result of the car ride home on busy highway on a hot day, with the windows down. Interestingly this ringing took about the same time to clear up each day. It took a while and a lot of thinking before I deduced that it was at about the same time each evening the system suddenly started sounding a lot better, and that the problem did not occur at all if the evening was a bit chilly and I had returned home with the car windows rolled up.
If we attempt to discuss, not argue, and actually think about and analyse what is going on instead of jumping to quick conclusions based on established doctrine there is far more chance of finding out exactly what is occurring.
Oldpinkman
22-12-2013, 13:54
Oh bugger. I was resolutely staying out of this, but I have a topical example of my own to go with Martins. Vis channel imbalance. I was about to commission a balance control mod for the Pip from Owen. The short version is, with various cartridge and arm changes, and a bit of a move in the living room, I have been experiencing a noticeable channel imbalance with the left channel quiet - and therefore the sound coming from right of centre. Bit paranoid my new toy might be defective, and planned to take it to Arthur to put on his sillyscope. The imbalance then went to the right instead of the left, then I wasn't sure. There are lots of reasons for this - probably one of them was one of my ears was slightly bunged without me realising it. Another was, having gone back over the records, by sheer coincidence the records I had listened to all had the vocals (the main centre of attention) right of centre instead of centre. Playing HFS test tone, and finding it dead centre (even without a sillyscope to be sure) and those other records where the vocals were left of centre made me aware of that.
Finally the separation on that U205 (as I knew before, but boy has this been a dramatic reminder) is ENORMOUS. So i can get a mix that puts everything centre and right and have a defective left channel, only to have a cymbal or similar ping off so far left its in next doors living room.
Mike and I have been chatting by PM and might get together to listen to a few tunes, discuss a few ideas, and maybe try his proposed cable test. Till then Ho Ho Ho :)
And if we don't Ho Ho Ho (where's a santa smilie when you want one?) :peace:
walpurgis
22-12-2013, 19:26
But Marco wishes us to keep those opinions of OTHERS to ourselves.
Well that is a bit of a double edged sword after all. I thought I was responding to a suggestion that my Hi-Fi might be denigrated and I might be accused of having wool in my ears. Am I not to have an opinion that is contrary?
When you hit a certain age wool does seem to grow in your ears. :) It escapes from your head and emerges from your nostrils and ears, there's no stoping it! :D
Hi Alan,
But Marco wishes us to keep those opinions of OTHERS to ourselves.
It's very simple: ALL opinions here are welcome (whether of a subjectivist or objectivist nature), providing that they don't seek to demean or discredit the (equally valid) contrary views of others.
An example of what is acceptable:
"In my engineer's opinion, based on 30 years experience, I do not consider that 'audiophile mains cables' provide any sonic benefit over the stock cables supplied with equipment. However, if you hear a difference, which you consider is an improvement, then enjoy it."
An example of what is NOT acceptable:
"I'm an engineer with 30 years experience, and I'm telling you that 'audiophile mains cables' cannot possibly provide any sonic benefit over ordinary mains cables, as it would be against the laws of physics. If you hear a difference, then you're imagining it!"
I trust you can appreciate the difference between those two statements, both in terms of tone and content?
Note it's not the view that said engineer doesn't consider that 'fancy mains leads' make a difference, which is unacceptable, but rather their dogmatic/absolutist way of telling others (of an opposite persuasion) that they cannot make a difference, as well as, rather offensively, concluding (without irrefutable proof) that those who think differently are delusional.
This is essentially the message we promote on AoS (our ethos):
- No rubbishing other's experiences. Keep debate civil, use a reasoned counter-argument that will advance the discussion.
- Know when to stop. Sometimes we need to agree to differ. Repeatedly making the same point without new evidence or perspective kills constructive debate.
- Be agreeable, even if you happen to disagree. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
That's not unreasonable or too much to ask, I wouldn't have thought? You'll also notice that the only free speech being 'censored' is a misplaced right to judge others - especially those you don't know!
:exactly:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-12-2013, 08:29
When you hit a certain age wool does seem to grow in your ears. :) It escapes from your head and emerges from your nostrils and ears, there's no stoping it! :D
And your belly button. damps that "pit of the stomach" response to real bass ;)
Incidentally, folks, in terms of what I wrote in my last post, we're going to be making an official statement about that soon, where the ethos, outlined for AoS, will be more strictly enforced in future.
Marco.
soon, where the ethos, outlined for AoS, will be more strictly enforced in future.
Marco.
There will be a torchlight parade commencing at 1900 hrs sharp. Attendance will be compulsory. The objectivists will have their windows put through. There will be a reckoning! They have sown the wind and now...(cont pag 94)
There will be a torchlight parade commencing at 1900 hrs sharp. Attendance will be compulsory. The objectivists will have their windows put through. There will be a reckoning! They have sown the wind and now...(cont pag 94)
Martin, please be patient my friend as we have been having some very constructive discussions about this and I am anticipating a positive outcome for all. As long as members are respectful of each other during such debates then nobody will have anything to worry about. It is only when those debates morph into entrenched arguments and personal attacks that the mod team may need to get involved, regardless of which side of the fence the protagonists happen to sit upon.
I was only having a little joke, Dave.
There will be a torchlight parade commencing at 1900 hrs sharp. Attendance will be compulsory. The objectivists will have their windows put through. There will be a reckoning! They have sown the wind and now...(cont pag 94)
Can I wear my 'special frock'?
:lolsign:
Marco
Btw, just so that it's clear...when I wrote this:
ALL opinions here are welcome (whether of a subjectivist or objectivist nature), providing that they don't seek to demean or discredit the (equally valid) contrary views of others.
...in terms of validity of opinion being equal, I meant outside of comments derived from the expertise someone possesses in their professional field, say as an electronics engineer. Therefore, in a discussion, for example, involving amplifier circuit design, the opinion of an EE will carry rather more weight, and so be 'worth' more, than that of an ordinary enthusiast.
*However*, and this bit is crucial, that DOES NOT necessarily mean that said EE has better ears, or knows what someone else is listening to in their own system better than they do! :nono:
In that respect, no-one is a better 'expert' of judging how their system performs, sonically, as a result of the additon of a 'foo mains cable', or anything else, than the user of that system!
This is precisely why no electronics engineer (or indeed anyone else for that matter) is qualified to judge what others hear, and then state that they are delusional, simply because what is being described does not conform to their, let's call it, 'engineering doctrine'.
Marco.
mr sneff
23-12-2013, 15:12
Can I wear my 'special frock'?
:lolsign:
Marco
Pretty clear where you stand on the valves vs trannies debate :)
You betcha, sweet-cheeks! :bum:
Marco.
Can I wear my 'special frock'?
:
Marco
Special frocks and high heels are compulsory. Did you not get the memorandum? This will be a demonstration of our might!
Incidentally do you have a clutch purse I can borrow? Just for the night, obviously.
walpurgis
23-12-2013, 21:17
Are we taking the Aurally Unclean to the local pillories for a good arse kick and tomato throwing?
Are we taking the Aurally Unclean to the local pillories for a good arse kick and tomato throwing?
No, not at all. Their fate will be much worse. Those that are convicted of being aurally unclean will be stripped of their rank and insignia and transported to the AoS prison facility on a distant and inhospitable planet. (Still under construction but it will be a bit like that one they get sent to in the first series of Blake's Seven) where they will live out their days forced to listen to the Smith's first LP on continuous playback through a system fed by unbranded mains cables that bear no resemblance to donkey wallopers. There may well be a crazy semi-religious cult led by Brian Blessed, or if he is not available his non-union Mexican equivalent, although I understand that detail has yet to be finalised.
No, not at all. Their fate will be much worse. Those that are convicted of being aurally unclean will be stripped of their rank and insignia and transported to the AoS prison facility...
AoSkaban??
AoSkaban??
Ah, very good :)
I was only having a little joke, Dave.
Joking? In a hifi forum? This is no place for humour. Men have died defending your right to fettle your Technics, and to add Furutech connectors to your mains cables. Do you think it's funny to have specially 'breathed upon' equipment?
Incidentally do you have a clutch purse I can borrow? Just for the night, obviously.
You're not planning on upstaging me, you biatch? 'Cos I is the main event!
Marco.
walpurgis
23-12-2013, 23:35
Joking? In a hifi forum? This is no place for humour. Men have died defending your right to fettle your Technics, and to add Furutech connectors to your mains cables. Do you think it's funny to have specially 'breathed upon' equipment?
Joking? You think we're joking?? You are on 'the list' henceforth! ;)
No, not at all. Their fate will be much worse. Those that are convicted of being aurally unclean will be stripped of their rank and insignia and transported to the AoS prison facility on a distant and inhospitable planet. (Still under construction but it will be a bit like that one they get sent to in the first series of Blake's Seven) where they will live out their days forced to listen to the Smith's first LP on continuous playback through a system fed by unbranded mains cables that bear no resemblance to donkey wallopers. There may well be a crazy semi-religious cult led by Brian Blessed, or if he is not available his non-union Mexican equivalent, although I understand that detail has yet to be finalised.
That reminds me, I really should take up the subject of uniforms with Marco. Middle age spread plus tight and shiny PVC uniforms in black do not good bed fellows make, and WHERE IS MY WHIP??? :D
walpurgis
24-12-2013, 12:49
Will we be marching with fixed bayonets or not?
And has the band been briefed on which martial tunes to play?
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