View Full Version : Platters and Phonos at MartinT's
Well, sorry for the wait but I needed to catch up with sleep before I could take to the keyboard, and I'm still very busy at work. So to the session, with Marco and MikeMusic present and a whole raft of equipment and accessories. We spent a long time at it and reached some conclusions; however, I shall state only my opinions and will leave Marco and Mike to speak for themselves. Everything using power was connected in to my regenerator.
CD Players & DAC
Before the main event, we started off comparing Mike's Rega Isis (solid state version) with my Ayre C-5xe MP player, and then brought in Marco's Audiocom modded Sony ES DAC (I don't have the model number) for good measure. The Isis is undoubtedly top class with a nice big soundstage (both wide and deep) and well defined instruments. I felt that the bass was a little less well defined than the Ayre, but the overall presentation was good and perhaps would suit those who prefer a mildly analogue style of performance, albeit we're talking small differences here. The Ayre is big and bold and pulls tremendous detail through and, as Jerry commented when he heard it, it suits my musical style and my system in general. What was utterly fascinating was introducing Mike's Marigo disc stabiliser (he had two; we used the better model) into the proceedings, a thin non-metal disc slipped over the CD. This acted to improve detail, attack and soundstage such that the performance of the two players was brought closer together - but not in a bad way! I have tried stabilisers before (I have an AT metal one and used to have a rubber one) but always struggled to get drawer loading players to load them up properly without mis-centering them. Not so the Marigo. I shall be looking out for one.
Marco's Audiocom modded Sony ES DAC was introduced and, although we were unable to get the Isis to play ball with its digital output, we were able to use the Ayre as a transport and get it going. Well, for souped-up 1980s technology, the Sony loses nothing at all to the more modern players and presented a hugely flowing and enjoyable sound. I don't know anything of the technology used (presumably it has Sony's 16-bit DAC chipset) but care over power supplies and clocking undoubtedly show what can be achieved. Fabulous!
Phono MC Head Amps & SUTs
We had available Paul Hynes' MC head amp, complete with SR5 power supply, and Jez's Arkless MC head amp, complete with wall-wart power supply. We had a good listen to my Choir/Hashimoto SUT using my deck, then got the Paul Hynes up and running - this is a head amp, so it replaced only the SUT and still ran into my Whest phono amp. Now, I have to admit to having something of a bias against active MC inputs because I've not yet heard one that competes with good transformers. Certainly the Whest set to MC doesn't hold a candle to the Hashimotos, and neither did my previous PS Audio GCPH. They sound flat and uninteresting. Not so the Paul Hynes, which was immediately marvellous and improved as we got some heat into the SR5. I particularly liked the way the Paul Hynes separated out the strands of music and made it really easy to listen into the presentation. I also though it presented soaring guitars wonderfully well, something I picked up on several times. I didn't think it had quite the dynamic clout of the Hashimotos, but it was a very close thing and I know the others disagreed on this point. More interesting was that it didn't introduce extra noise or hum into the system, something I am sensitive to and would have rejected immediately had it been intrusive.
The Arkless head amp was then swapped in and, I'm afraid to say, was a bit of a disappointment. It worked just as effectively as the PH with no noise or hum, but it just sounded somewhat lacking in detail and flat dynamically. I know Jez will be disappointed to read this but I can only report on what I heard and it did not match either the Hashimoto or Paul Hynes for soundstage, detail or dynamics.
Platters, Mats & Cartridges
So now we turned to the platter comparison, mixed in with some mats. We listened to Mike New's ETP with and without a 'Harmonicer' mat (quite the worst product name I've come across in a while) and Oyaide mat versus the Funk platter with Achromat. We had already been listening to my ETP on my deck and came across a problem where my arm wouldn't lower sufficiently to get a level playing field (!) for all comparisons. So from that point on, we switched to Marco's deck but with my Shelter cartridge to preserve the sound we were acclimatised to. We listened to my ETP again, to check that all was well, then moved over to the Funk with bonded Achromat. The others can say their piece but I heard again, on a different deck, exactly what I had heard before, which was a slight dulling of detail in the upper mid and a loss of attack in that area - compared with the ETP. The all-important vocal area was suffering, with a slightly thicker presentation and less sparkle.
In order to double-check our findings, we built Marco's just-arrived ETP with the magnet assembly and put it on his deck to replace mine. The performance was the same and I definitely heard again what has so impressed me with the ETP, the exceptionally neutral but detailed midrange with simply magnificent vocal delivery. All else - potent bass, extended and detailed treble, were present and correct.
We played with mats to see if the ETP works best on its own (as I use it) or whether it would respond well to another interface. The Harmonicer made everything sound 'nice', but removed edge detail. I can understand what the designer was striving for and it may well work wonders elsewhere, but the ETP doesn't need it. Similarly the Oyaide metal mat, which again removed some detail and dynamics and did nothing positive for the sound. To my ears, the ETP on its own was the winner.
And finally, we listened to Marco's Ortofon SPU (model?) versus my Shelter 5000, leaving all else the same. I heard exactly the same differences as I've become accustomed to: the Ortofon has a mellifluous fluidity (try saying that when you're tired) that is simply in a class of its own. Presentation is quite exquisitely beautiful. The Shelter, in comparison, is more incisive, detailed and has greater attack. For roughly equally priced cartridges, you could take your pick based on personal preference and never be disappointed.
Oh, and Marco's Ortofon arm may sound equally superb, but it proved grumpy (or was that me) and difficult to adjust arm height and tracking weight compared with my Dynavector. Thank goodness we don't make many platter and cartridge changes too often as my back was giving out by the end of the evening!
Overall, a very informative and enjoyable session and, as usual, I learned a lot from it as well as enjoyed the music and the company.
Nice write-up, Martin. As we discussed on the day, based on what we heard in your system, there are some areas where we all universally agreed, and some where we differed, and I'll get to both when I add my thoughts later, which I promise I will do, once I get some urgent Xmas errands out of the way!
Just a couple of quick things in the meantime...
The Sony DAC in question is a DAS-R1, from 1989, and uses the renowned TDA-1541 S1 chips. This is of course multi-bit, as opposed to bitstream technology. The unit has been heavily modified by Audiocom International, in terms of re-clocking, and with serious attention also paid to power supply arrangements.
I have to say that once the DAC had warmed up, after being powered down for some hours during the trip to your place, it sounded utterly stunning in your system, when fed by your Ayre, acting as a transport. In fact, IMO (and I think Mike agreed), it markedly improved the Ayre in key areas, when used on its own, as much as I rate it highly as a standalone universal player. However, I suspect that things would be different when playing SACDs.
Anyway, more on that later :)
Furthermore, having listened again to Jez's MC head amp, before shipping it off to Ali, I can confirm that it sounds rather different (much better) in my system, fed from a Croft valve preamp, than it did in yours, where (for whatever reason) it just didn't gel with your kit, which is interesting. More on that later, too!
Marco.
The Sony DAC in question is a DAS-R1, from 1989, and uses the renowned TDA-1541 S1 chips. This is of course multi-bit, as opposed to bitstream technology. The unit, of course, has been heavily modified by Audiocom International, in terms of re-clocking, and with serious attention also paid to power supply arrangements.
I have to say that once the DAC had warmed up, after being powered down for some hours during the trip to your place, it sounded utterly stunning in your system, when fed by your Ayre, acting as a transport. In fact, IMO (and I think Mike agreed), it markedly improved the Ayre in key areas, when used on its own, as much as I rate it highly as a standalone universal player. However, I suspect that things would be different when playing SACDs.
Thanks for that info. I don't disagree either, it was a very compelling sound. As for SACD, it wouldn't work as Sony do not allow DSD to be output digitally in native format due to rights restrictions and the Ayre is not one of those machines (like my Blu-ray player) that downsamples SACD into PCM for use with external DACs. My experience is that downsampled DSD is not comparable, in any case.
Oh, and your DAS-R1 wouldn't know what DSD is anyway!
Lol - I know! What I was referring to was your Ayre on its own, playing SACDs, versus the Ayre + Sony DAC, playing ordinary CDs.
I suspect that, with an optimally recorded SACD to chew on, it may level the playing field somewhat, and allow the 'naked Ayre' to lead proceedings :)
Marco.
It would have been interesting to play The Doors SACD which I recently received, compared with your 45rpm vinyl version. I thought both were superb.
Indeed - that's one we forgot to do... I suspect, though, that the vinyl would've just edged it, given the level both our T/Ts are now at ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 13:21
Indeed it is disappointing to hear that you didn't like the head amp Martin. In my own system it sounded awesome and I could find no criticism of it really... absolutely transparent and certainly not lacking any dynamics. Mind you I've never heard a SUT that I prefer to a good active head amp so we seem to have opposite views on that one!
Yes indeed, Jez, and I feel bad about it but I can only report what I heard. My system, my phono amp (Whest), my turntable so it could well be quite different elsewhere, as Marco has already alluded to.
Nice review and discussion - very informative.:thumbsup:
MikeMusic
17-12-2013, 14:48
A little to add to Martin’s review.
CD Players
Surprised me how much the Isis sounds ‘analogue’ and the Ayre ‘digital’ - to me. Think we all agreed on this
Close run with me preferring my Isis, (no bias honest !) and Martin the Ayre. This underlines what we both like in systems.
Putting the Marigo mat, 3D Signature on and finding the improvement was no surprise to me, I use it all the time upgrading from a Statmat originally and then the 'vanilla' Marigo. All gave an improvement I liked so I upgraded to the 3D.
The huge surprise was how much closer they then sound to each other. Very odd this hifi stuff
Marco’s DAC was a surprise too. Definite lift in sound quality
Why ? Huge ancient box doing great things to SQ
Phono MC Head Amps & SUTs
Think we all agreed Paul has a fine piece of kit there. Another surprise for me as I’m a firm SUT believer.
Platters, Mats & Cartridges
Mike New’s ETP is certainly good, could be the best. Oyaide on ETP not a good match. The real test has to come with the Oyaide on a Funk Firm platter v’s the ETP at some time in the future. The Oyaide is much better than the fabulous Achromat so I think it will be close.
Cartridges
Almost repeating the Isis v’s Ayre I just prefer the SPU to the Shelter, but anyone with ears and a brain would have no problem with either. I like smooth and flowing, Martin the naked accuracy of the Shelter
Almost repeating the Isis v’s Ayre I just prefer the SPU to the Shelter, but anyone with ears and a brain would have no problem with either. I like smooth and flowing, Martin the naked accuracy of the Shelter
Yes, exactly! I think my preference for the Ayre and Shelter makes logical sense as they have very similar traits. Again, the Isis and SPU have a lot in common, especially that smooth fluid delivery.
My system, my phono amp (Whest), my turntable so it could well be quite different elsewhere, as Marco has already alluded to.
Indeed. For whatever reason, it just didn't seem to be at its best in your system. However, it certainly works very well with the Croft! Sonic synergy with valves, perhaps? Dunno...
What's important here is that people aren't put off trying Jez's head amp, as so much of this stuff is down to a collection of different boxes gelling with each other, creating in some cases, unexpected results - and not always bad ones either! :)
I'll be typing up my on extended thoughts on our session shortly.
Marco.
Ali Tait
17-12-2013, 15:31
Looking forward to trying it Marco, shame the Firebottle stage will be winging it's way to the next recipient.
You should already have it, Ali, as it was sent to you yesterday by SD, so guaranteed next day before 1pm! :)
If you haven't received it yet, I can PM you the Royal Mail Tracking Reference Number, so you can check where it is.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 15:35
Indeed. For whatever reason, it just didn't seem to be at its best in your system. However, it certainly works very well with Croft! Sonic synergy with valves, perhaps? Dunno...
What's important here is that people aren't put off trying Jez's head amp, as so much of this stuff is down to a collection of different boxes gelling with each other, creating in some cases, unexpected results - and not always bad ones, either! :)
I'll be typing up my on extended thoughts on our session shortly.
Marco.
It should work fine with SS or valve phono stages but was intended for use with valve phono stages. This is because only valve stages need a step up device.... MM only SS units are generally budget offerings intended for first time TT users whereas more upmarket SS offerings have MC facilities anyway.
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 15:37
You should already have it, Ali, as it was sent to you yesterday by SD, so guaranteed next day before 1pm! :)
If you haven't received it yet, I can PM you the Royal Mail Tracking Reference Number, so you can check where it is.
Marco.
At the sorting office after they found no one in to sign for it apparently.....
It should work fine with SS or valve phono stages but was intended for use with valve phono stages. This is because only valve stages need a step up device.... MM only SS units are generally budget offerings intended for first time TT users whereas more upmarket SS offerings have MC facilities anyway.
Indeed. Problem is, even "upmarket SS offerings" with full MC facilities (such as Martin's whest) are having their butts well and truly kicked by aftermarket, bespoke, 'add on' SUTs and head amps! ;)
I can say with some certainty, and I know that Martin agrees, the MC stage on his Whest (a £3k standalone phono stage?) is comprehensively outperformed by the MM input, used in conjunction with his Hashimoto SUTs, or indeed the stunning MC head amp from Paul Hynes.
That shouldn't be happening, should it? But it *IS*, so one wonders what's going on?
Marco.
At the sorting office after they found no one in to sign for it apparently.....
Ah, that's ok then :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 15:57
Indeed. Problem is, even "upmarket SS offerings" with full MC facilities (such as Martin's whest) are having their butts well and truly kicked by aftermarket, bespoke, 'add on' SUTs and head amps! ;)
I can say with some certainty, and I know that Martin agrees, the MC stage on his Whest (a £3k standalone phono stage?) is comprehensively outperformed by the MM input, used in conjunction with his Hashimoto SUTs, or indeed the stunning MC head amp from Paul Hynes.
That shouldn't be happening, should it? But it *IS*, so one wonders what's going on?
Marco.
I haven't heard Martins system obviously but, to generalise, there is no reason to expect a SUT or head amp to outperform the inbuilt MC stage in a good SS phono stage and every reason to expect the opposite.
Indeed, but that's not what my experience tells me (far from it) - and I've listened to LOADS of very good commercially produced phono stages, and also some superb DIY designs.
However, I think that's probably where the problem lies: the fact that the recognised products in audio are commercially produced (i.e. 'built to a price' - and here I'm referring solely to the internals), not the fancy boxes many of them come in, in order to give the owner a false sense of pride of ownership!
Therefore, when you connect up something like your head amp or Paul's, which were built with maximum sonic performance in mind, first and foremost, with no cost attached relating to the 'prestige value' of a 'high-end badge', or marketing, it shows up just how average (vastly overpriced) and disappointing some of these so-called 'high-end' products are...
I would lay a bet with Martin that if he sold his Whest and replaced it with a bespoke-designed 'no compromise' unit, made by the likes of your good self, Paul Hynes, Anthony TD or Nick Gorham (with SUTs or a head amp built-in), he'd be shocked and stunned at just what was possible from his vinyl front end!! Don't worry, I'll get him round to my way of thinking one of these days :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
It would certainly appear that the MC stage of the Whest leaves something to be desired. However, I can think of at least one, very vociferous, poster on another forum and Whest owner that thinks it is the very pinnacle of perfection!
Ah yes, Jamesy-boy 'I buy on reviews, brand reputation and what my guru tells me' McPeake. He's a lost sheep, I'm afraid - and has been for some time....! ;)
However, based on what I've heard, it's not the case that the Whest is especially bad, but rather that some SUTs and bespoke-designed head amps are *so* bloody good!!
Marco.
I must admit that I was surprised he bought the Whest.
He'd have been advised to buy it and/or bought it as a result of its good reviews. The man seems incapable of thinking for himself or trusting his own ears.
Anyway, I wouldn't get too down on the Whest. It's actually pretty good (although, IMO, not worth the money). Trouble is, there are (again, IMO) better ways of spending £3k+ on a phono stage, where you will get a much bigger bang for your buck!
Marco.
MC stage on his Whest (a £3k standalone phono stage?)
£2k-ish. The PS.30RDT is over £3k.
Ah, thanks for the clarification :)
Marco.
...and to add some balance here, the Whest's MM input stage (as that is what I set it for) is *very* good indeed. How otherwise would we have heard such good sounds from both the Hashimotos and PH head amp?
interesting thread I must say the views so far expressed have not put me off wanting to try Jez's head amp, Marco I think the Whest PS30 R is £1700, its the 30rdt se that's 3K,
I do find it strange that a MC phonostage would be better when used with a step up device , I would have thought the whest only has one amplification stage and selecting MC/MM is simply a case of changing the gain or does it have two separate stages in one case ?
cant wait to read Marco's write up, real world compelling, no wonder the mags cant compete;)
Paul
costerdock
17-12-2013, 17:43
Great thread - I'm leaning towards the H7 in the future since I really like my C220's tube MM section.
...there are (again, IMO) better ways of spending £3k+ on a phono stage, where you will get a much bigger bang for your buck!
Marco.
I quite agree, bigger and better :).
(Have just made a small but worthwhile change to my own MC stage - no, I didn't convert it to use a SUT ;))
I quite agree, bigger and better :).
(Have just made a small but worthwhile change to my own MC stage - no, I didn't convert it to use a SUT ;))
I made a small change to my MC phono stage too, and no SUT's here either :)
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 18:03
interesting thread I must say the views so far expressed have not put me off wanting to try Jez's head amp, Marco I think the Whest PS30 R is £1700, its the 30rdt se that's 3K,
I do find it strange that a MC phonostage would be better when used with a step up device , I would have thought the whest only has one amplification stage and selecting MC/MM is simply a case of changing the gain or does it have two separate stages in one case ?
cant wait to read Marco's write up, real world compelling, no wonder the mags cant compete;)
Paul
Yeah same here! Especially the comparison of step up devices at his own place where he had time to listen to them at length....
There are various ways of making a phono stage with both MC and MM inputs but I'll use my own product, the Arkless 640P as an example here of one in which all that changes is the gain, which involves switching in/out a resistor in parallel with an existing resistor.....
Yeah same here! Especially the comparison of step up devices at his own place where he had time to listen to them at length....
There are various ways of making a phono stage with both MC and MM inputs but I'll use my own product, the Arkless 640P as an example here of one in which all that changes is the gain, which involves switching in/out a resistor in parallel with an existing resistor.....
What about the change in input impedance? Is that switched separately?
Arkless Electronics
17-12-2013, 18:12
What about the change in input impedance? Is that switched separately?
Loading plugs ;)
The original circuitry of the 640P is quite different and has separate MM and MC stages with shared RIAA stage.
I do find it strange that a MC phonostage would be better when used with a step up device , I would have thought the whest only has one amplification stage and selecting MC/MM is simply a case of changing the gain or does it have two separate stages in one case ?
The Whest has a set number of stages (I don't know how many) with adjustable gain in six steps from 40dB to 72dB and adjustable load from 100 to 47k Ohms. I have mine set to 40dB gain with 47k loading, just like most MM stages (and is marked as 'MM').
Wakefield Turntables
17-12-2013, 18:55
It would certainly appear that the MC stage of the Whest leaves something to be desired. However, I can think of at least one, very vociferous, poster on another forum and Whest owner that thinks it is the very pinnacle of perfection!
£2k-ish. The PS.30RDT is over £3k.
Just caught up with this thread and it mirrors my findings with the Whest & SUT's. It's not the Whest is a bad phonostage, it's very good, BUT, in my system it sounded shit and was easily shown a clean pair of heels with a Sugden Masterclass phonostage and a Ortofon ST80SE SUT. I'm following this thread with great interest because both my system are going through some changes (phonostage) wise, tonight I shall take delivery of a 3 box paradise phonostage this is on load for a while and it will be interesting to see how this integrates with my current kit. I've learned two BIG things in this discussion. Firstly trust your ears (I always said the Whest was a fussy bugger), and secondly synergy is key. Incidently I tried the Whest 3.0RDTse and the price was £3300, I think??
The Whest has a set number of stages (I don't know how many) with adjustable gain in six steps from 40dB to 72dB and adjustable load from 100 to 47k Ohms. I have mine set to 40dB gain with 47k loading, just like most MM stages (and is marked as 'MM').
One thing we forgot to do when fitting my SPU was to raise the gain to the higher setting on the Whest's MM stage. If you remember, we did that the last time, and the results we obtained were nothing short of astonishing! That was why there was such a discrepancy in the volume level needing to be applied with your Pass Labs preamp, when going from your Shelter to the SPU....
It's understandable, I guess, as their respective outputs (0.5mV, for the Shelter, against 0.2mV, for the SPU) are rather different. We'll need to remember that next time, in order to hear the SPU at its absolute best in your system :)
Marco.
P.S I'm doing my write-up now, so it should be ready soon!
Yes, we did forget to change the gain in the Whest and I noted in my head the increased volume level required for the SPU. However, by that time I think we had all had it and the Whest requires opening up to change its gain...
Once again, and to defend the Whest's honour, it sounds superb in the mode I use it in. ALL of our listening was done through it. However, if someone were to show me a better way to do things, and I could sell my Hashimotos and Whest to fund it, then I am always open to suggestions.
interesting thread I must say the views so far expressed have not put me off wanting to try Jez's head amp
I hope it doesn't, Paul. We bang on a lot about synergy because it's important. The Arkless head amp may well work wonders for you and you'll only know if you try one in your system.
... tonight I shall take delivery of a 3 box paradise phonostage this is on loan for a while and it will be interesting to see how this integrates with my current kit. I've learned two BIG things in this discussion. Firstly trust your ears (I always said the Whest was a fussy bugger), and secondly synergy is key. Incidently I tried the Whest 3.0RDTse and the price was £3300, I think??
No doubt you will be 'delighted' to know there is now a mod for said Paradise and Si hasn't had time to fit it to his yet.... ;).
anubisgrau
17-12-2013, 19:30
what's exactly a PH head amp? is it a MC level to MM level amplifier or a full RIAA phono set for MC (and without MM option)?
what's inside, tubes or FETs? anyone has a pic of internals?
what's exactly a PH head amp? is it a MC level to MM level amplifier or a full RIAA phono set for MC (and without MM option)?
what's inside, tubes or FETs? anyone has a pic of internals?
It's an MC to MM level amp using FETs. No picture, I'm afraid. Paul has promised to comment when he has time.
Paul Hynes
17-12-2013, 19:54
Hello Gordan,
The PH head amp is an MC to MM step up device to bring MC level signals up to MM level to then feed a phono stage designed for MM cartridges. It can also be used to bypass the MC stage in a phono stage with a built in MC stage of course.
The design uses ultra low noise FETs and proprietary ultra low noise voltage regulators designed specifically for use in head amplifiers. In the head amp I supplied to Marco I have used Vishay Bulk Foil resistors and fine silver wire for signal and power wiring. The output coupling capacitors are slit foil types. The external power supply is my SR5-21 for the Technics SL1200.
Regards
Paul
Ok, I think the best way to do this is simply to selectively quote Martin, and add my own thoughts, as in many ways he's summed things up rather nicely. Having already discussed the digital side of things (which in reality is off-topic for this section of the forum), I'll concentrate now on the 'main event', as it were, which is the platter and SUT/head amp comparisons...
Phono MC Head Amps & SUTs
Now, I have to admit to having something of a bias against active MC inputs because I've not yet heard one that competes with good transformers. Certainly the Whest set to MC doesn't hold a candle to the Hashimotos, and neither did my previous PS Audio GCPH. They sound flat and uninteresting. Not so the Paul Hynes, which was immediately marvellous and improved as we got some heat into the SR5. I particularly liked the way the Paul Hynes separated out the strands of music and made it really easy to listen into the presentation. I also though it presented soaring guitars wonderfully well, something I picked up on several times.
I agree, and that is something it does exceptionally well, as indeed is its uncanny ability to delve deep into the mix and reveal the subtlest of musical information. However, what struck me most (as indeed it did in my own system) was its ability to create a super-wide stereo image, which was almost electrostatic-like, in terms of realism, although you wouldn't have appreciated the effect from where you were listening ;)
Honestly, had you been sitting where Mike and I were, in the 'sweet spot' between your speakers, you'd have been gob-smacked at its abilities in that area, making both your SUT and mine, in that respect, sound distinctly constrained, where stereo imaging just wasn't in the same class.
The PH head amp is *so* good in that respect, and in terms of stereo separation, that it addresses one of the only fundamental flaws in the armoury of the modified SL-1210: namely its deficiencies in terms of soundstaging, compared with something like a Michell Gyrodec or Orbe. However, simply run the music signal it produces through the Paul Hynes head amp, and you've entered 3D-soundstaging heaven. The effect is truly beguiling! :eek:
That for me is one of the major strengths of Paul's head amp, along with other (arguably even more important) traits, such as tonal neutrality, without any evidence of sterility. Here, its performance is in the top rank, to such an extent that I can detect almost no character of its own, thus allowing high-quality recordings full reign, ensuring that the listener is kept utterly transfixed. It also has an entertaining way of grabbing hold of rhythms (in appropriate music) and driving them along with addictive impetus. One could call this 'PRaT', and here the PH head amp is rather Naim-like, but only in a good way.
I'm so bowled over by the performance of this unit that it has now become an integral part of my system, ousting my SUT, the Ortofon ST-80SE. The Ortofon is still very good indeed, and if I hadn't heard Paul's head amp, it would still be my chosen way of amplifying the delicate signal from low-output MC cartridges, but having now experienced the highly addictive sonic traits of Paul's head amp, I simply could not live without them!
I didn't think it had quite the dynamic clout of the Hashimotos, but it was a very close thing and I know the others disagreed on this point. More interesting was that it didn't introduce extra noise or hum into the system, something I am sensitive to and would have rejected immediately had it been intrusive.
Indeed, it's as quiet as a church mouse (as indeed was Jez's head amp). I'm not sure about the Hashimotos having more dynamic clout (I didn't hear that myself), but they're undoubtedly an enjoyable listen and suit your Shelter cartridge very well. In terms of my situation, however, I've always been aware of what good head amps can do (from the days of listening to the Lentek, modified by Nick Gorham, and comparing it and my Denon HA-500 head amp, to my A23 SUT, using a DL-103SA cartridge), but Paul's FET-based unit has raised the bar quite considerably, and vinyl is now sounding the best it ever has in my system.
The Arkless head amp was then swapped in and, I'm afraid to say, was a bit of a disappointment. It worked just as effectively as the PH with no noise or hum, but it just sounded somewhat lacking in detail and flat dynamically.
Unfortunately, in the context of your system, I have to agree. That was rather surprising and disappointing, because if it had performed that way in my system, then I wouldn't have bothered bringing it down - or indeed extolled its virtues on the forum previously to other members.
In my system, in conjunction with the valve MM stage of the Croft, the Arkless head amp sounds bold, effortlessly dynamic and unfailingly precise, in terms of its way of music-making, with (like Paul's) little audible sonic signature of its own. It also unravels complex material extremely well, allowing the listener excellent insight into the musical programme. In my opinion, it would almost certainly outperform the active MC input contained in most commercial phonostages at up to £2k.
What the Arkless unit doesn't quite have is the sheer clout, speed or 'whip-crack' dynamic alacrity of the PH head amp, or its sublime skills at stereo imaging, and (although no doubt Jez will disagree with me), I'd put this largely down to its use of a Walwart-type PSU, which I honestly feel is holding back the undoubted potential of this unit. I've been playing around with heavy-duty linear PSUs since my Naim days, many moons ago, and so I can intrinsically recognise their effect when whatever it is they're connected to is reproducing recorded music.
In that respect, I'd love to listen to a head amp Jez has made, where the focus is on optimising the design, via the use of a huge off-board linear PSU, such as Paul has done with the SR5, powering his head amp - or perhaps Jez could build an otherwise identical head amp to the one I listened to, but which featured the use of a hugely over-specced linear PSU, so I could compare them directly side-by-side, where the only variable was the power supply arrangements on both units?
Now THAT would be interesting! :exactly:
However, that aside, I would have no hesitation recommending the Arkless head amp, even in its current guise, for anyone who has an MM-only phono stage and wishes to add MC compatibility, or simply improve on the capabilities of (IME) the less than optimal MC inputs contained in many currently produced commercial phonostages.
Platters, Mats & Cartridges
So now we turned to the platter comparison, mixed in with some mats. We listened to Mike New's ETP with and without a 'Harmonicer' mat (quite the worst product name I've come across in a while) and Oyaide mat versus the Funk platter with Achromat. We had already been listening to my ETP on my deck and came across a problem where my arm wouldn't lower sufficiently to get a level playing field (!) for all comparisons. So from that point on, we switched to Marco's deck but with my Shelter cartridge to preserve the sound we were acclimatised to. We listened to my ETP again, to check that all was well, and then moved over to the Funk with bonded Achromat. The others can say their piece but I heard again, on a different deck, exactly what I had heard before, which was a slight dulling of detail in the upper mid and a loss of attack in that area - compared with the ETP. The all-important vocal area was suffering, with a slightly thicker presentation and less sparkle.
In terms of the ETP platter versus the Funk, with Achromat and Clearaudio Harmo-nicer fitted, I would have to agree. As you know, I was reluctant to discard a perfectly good platter; and one which on my T/T had provided me with many hours of musical pleasure, unless the ETP *really* was significantly better to my ears....
I'm happy to report that it was, and in the very areas described when you initially carried out the comparison yourself, namely midrange clarity and high-frequency extension, making the Funk platter and Achromat (with or without the Harmo-nicer) sound somewhat 'cloudy' and diffuse in comparison. I've highlighted those words, as its important for those reading to realise that under most circumstances the Funk platter and Achromat are a sublime combination, but the ETP simply excels in the areas described, as well as showing no downsides that I can detect so far.
With regard to the ETP platter versus the Funk platter/Achromat combination, we're not talking 'night and day' differences here, in the way of, say, a fundamental tonearm upgrade, but through the overall superiority of the ETP, significant ones for those keen to take their modified Techies all the way and eke out the last ounce of latent potential. However, there is no doubt that the ETP platter is a very fine design and marries extremely well, sonically and visually, with the Technics SL-1200/1210. Mike New should be justifiably proud of his work.
I intend to comment further on the ETP platter, as my ears become more attuned daily to its abilities in my system, but for now I can safely say that it has taken permanent residence on my turntable, and that David has made another sale! Consequently, I would have no hesitation in recommending the ETP to others considering a fundamental and significant platter upgrade on their Technics T/Ts.
We played with mats to see if the ETP works best on its own (as I use it) or whether it would respond well to another interface. The Harmonicer made everything sound 'nice', but removed edge detail. I can understand what the designer was striving for and it may well work wonders elsewhere, but the ETP doesn't need it. Similarly the Oyaide metal mat, which again removed some detail and dynamics and did nothing positive for the sound. To my ears, the ETP on its own was the winner.
Indeed - try as I might, the ETP seems to resolutely refuse to be 'upgraded' by any mat (or combination of mats) I've tried. The material it's made from appears to be both an excellent impedance match with vinyl and one which deals very effectively with the issues of mechanical vibration and resonance.
And finally, we listened to Marco's Ortofon SPU (model?) versus my Shelter 5000, leaving all else the same. I heard exactly the same differences as I've become accustomed to: the Ortofon has a mellifluous fluidity (try saying that when you're tired) that is simply in a class of its own. Presentation is quite exquisitely beautiful. The Shelter, in comparison, is more incisive, detailed and has greater attack. For roughly equally priced cartridges, you could take your pick based on personal preference and never be disappointed.
I totally agree - and I do like your Shelter, which is a superb example of what a modern high-end cartridge is capable of.
One of the reasons I use an SPU (and the model, which you asked about, incidentally, is the Royal GM), is because its addictive sonic traits, which you've described rather well, ameliorate the tendency of the Technics of sounding somewhat 'dry' and clinical - and the Ortofon tonearm plays a part in that too, combining to give my own modded Techy a 'musical flow' and fluidity which is not only essential to my enjoyment of music, but to my ears, creates a successful synergy with the inherent 'house sound' of the SL-1210, thus removing any notion of it sounding dark, or not being able to 'boogie'; criticisms which some have recently levied at the Technics.
Oh, and Marco's Ortofon arm may sound equally superb, but it proved grumpy (or was that me) and difficult to adjust arm height and tracking weight compared with my Dynavector.
You're just used to and have been spoiled by that superb Dynavector, which ergonomically is excellent and a joy to use! I think that, sonically, both arms are on a par with each other, although I suspect that the Ortofon (not unsurprisingly) is a better match for an SPU. The Shelter and Dynavector are most certainly also a marriage made in heaven!
Overall, a very informative and enjoyable session and, as usual, I learned a lot from it as well as enjoyed the music and the company.
Absolutely! I always enjoy our sessions, as like you, I usually learn something new, which is helped by the fact that yours is one of the few systems, other than my own, which I can use as a reference point and thus form meaningful conclusions whenever comparisons are conducted of various types of equipment. The company is always good, too!
I hope that those reading have found our combined observations useful. That's it, folks, I'm off now to listen to some choons! :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
17-12-2013, 21:59
Excellent write up gents . I'm now totally digital and mostly battery powered , however I've followed this thread with interest . It hasn't disappointed and has been an interesting read . I'm sure any turntable users will find this thread very interesting and informative .Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. Great read.:)
:clapclapclap: we need some pics please?
Good write-up, Marco, and meshes nicely with what I heard over at stage-right :)
Actually, not being in the stereo hot seat sometimes helps you to really listen to the sound more easily.
Wakefield Turntables
17-12-2013, 22:21
No doubt you will be 'delighted' to know there is now a mod for said Paradise and Si hasn't had time to fit it to his yet.... ;).
Which is?
I shall be going down the 4 box version, like yours I think, but we are having problems getting the PSU's, so it looks like next year when I get the full version.
Yes, I'm aware of the supply issue - unfortunately it seems to be in the nature of such non-commercial offerings and I know Si is doing his best (supply is not within his control though).
The mod is a replacement of an op-amp for a higher quality (but more expensive) item - Si will explain.
Thanks for sharing this with us guys. (All quite timely for me as I am considering my options regarding phonostages.)
Excellent write up Marco! :) At last you delivered - and reinforced an opinion of mine that there are few absolutes in the "art of sound": a lot of it is down to the expectation agenda and ears of the listener, and 'synergy' (a largely misused term) has a lot to do with it.
I'm equivocal when it comes to the SUT/active MC amp debate: both have their individual strengths and weaknesses.
One minor quibble - "mellifluous fluidity", is something of a tautology! :ner:
Even so, nice write up - and one that shows that there are no absolute arrangements in audio systems: both you and and Martin have excellent audio systems each satisfying your individual requirements, and that you mutually recognise them.
One minor quibble - "mellifluous fluidity", is something of a tautology! :ner:
LOL - sorry about that, Barry. Must have been having a poetic moment. Back to standard operation now ;)
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 08:51
So in a nutshell (for platters and SUT)
1. The MN ETP platter was best on its own with no bling
2. Paul Hynes stuff worked really really well as a replacement for the ortofon SUT.
???
1. The MN ETP platter was best on its own with no bling
2. Paul Hynes stuff worked really really well as a replacement for the ortofon SUT.
...and also at least the equal of, if not better than, the Hashimoto SUT, which gives an idea of its performance level.
Excellent write up Marco! :) At last you delivered - and reinforced an opinion of mine that there are few absolutes in the "art of sound": a lot of it is down to the expectation agenda and ears of the listener, and 'synergy' (a largely misused term) has a lot to do with it.
I'm equivocal when it comes to the SUT/active MC amp debate: both have their individual strengths and weaknesses.
One minor quibble - "mellifluous fluidity", is something of a tautology! :ner:
Even so, nice write up - and one that shows that there are no absolute arrangements in audio systems: both you and and Martin have excellent audio systems each satisfying your individual requirements, and that you mutually recognise them.
Cheers, Barry.
Sessions at Martin's place, where comparisons are made between various bits of kit, are always illuminating, simply because his system is of a 'reference standard' (i.e. it is essentially neutral sounding and extremely revealing of any changes made, in terms of partnering equipment and/or ancillaries), and therefore in that respect, acts as an 'open window'. Most importantly, it's also rather entertaining and musically engaging too, so although his system is ruthlessly revealing, it does not sound in any way sterile.
Along with my own system, and that belonging to Ian Walker, a friend of mine, it is one the few systems where I'm able to make some pretty firm conclusions about what I'm hearing.
However, much more important than anything else is the fact that we're always brutally honest with each other about what we hear, even if it means admitting that a piece of kit one of us owns is fundamentally not as good as that belonging to the other, or at the very least, we will acknowledge the strenghts and weaknesses of the equipment in question, regardless of whom it belongs to, and so egos or any forms of absolutism are left firmly at the door.
The fun thing about all this is that it usually ends in one of us achieving an upgrade, due to us successfully identifying, to our ears, a genuinely superior piece of kit, and this time it was my turn, with the ETP platter. I think Martin would agree that I've been responsible in the past for 'inflicting' on him things such as the Paul Hynes SR7, Funk platter, Yannis tonearm cable, etc, so for us these sessions are a win-win, and if our conclusions help other members in making a decision as to how to proceed with modifying their own T/Ts, then that in itself makes it all worthwhile :cool:
One little thing, the "mellifluous fluidity" thing was Martin's little gem, not mine. I think he's been reading rather too much of Mr Fremer recently! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 09:54
...and also at least the equal of, if not better than, the Hashimoto SUT, which gives an idea of its performance level.
and if I may.....
1. We have yet to hear the MN ETP against the Funk platter and Oyaide.
I think it will be close, possibly even a win for Funk/Oyaide.
Don't know the price comparison though
2. We don't yet know the prices of Paul Hynes Head amp. so can 'only' compare SQ - which is definitely better
Ortofon around £1100
...and also at least the equal of, if not better than, the Hashimoto SUT, which gives an idea of its performance level.
Indeed. Paul deserves the highest praise for creating this astonishing sounding little device.
Marco.
Hi Mike,
and if I may.....
1. We have yet to hear the MN ETP against the Funk platter and Oyaide.
I think it will be close, possibly even a win for Funk/Oyaide.
That's very true, and I shall be very interested in your findings. The Oyaide mat, as we all agreed, certainly didn't improve the ETP platter, but it could be different with the Funk one. I have my doubts, though.
However, I've never liked the blingy aesthetic appearance of the Oyaide, as to my eyes it makes the Techy look 'pimped-up', a-la 'boy-racer' stylee, although I guess that comes down to personal taste.
2. We don't yet know the prices of Paul Hynes Head amp. so can 'only' compare SQ - which is definitely better
Ortofon around £1100
Indeed - Paul's still to hit me with that little gem, but I wouldn't envisage it costing much more, if any, than the Ortofon SUT, especially as the (less expensive) SR3 PSU is the natural partner for his head amp. I went with the SR5 because, as you know, I don't do things by halves! :eyebrows:
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 10:25
I've never liked the aesthetic appearance of the Oyaide, as to my eyes it makes the Techy look 'pimped-up', a-la 'boy-racer' stylee, although I guess that comes down to personal taste.
Indeed - Paul's still to hit me with that little gem, but I wouldn't envisage it costing much more, if any, than the Ortofon SUT, especially as the (less expensive) SR3 PSU is the natural partner for his head amp. I went with the SR5 because, as you know, I don't do things by halves! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ohyay the Oyaide's looks are best viewed under an LP
:)
Didn't realise there were alternative PSUs. Another comparison that could be done.
Less than the Ortofon would be something to look at .......
Ohyay the Oyaide's looks are best viewed under an LP
Indeed - somewhat like a 'growler' with a bag over her head? :eyebrows:
Didn't realise there were alternative PSUs. Another comparison that could be done.
Less than the Ortofon would be something to look at .......
I'd imagine you could use any of Paul's PSUs with his head amp - including an SR7! :eek:
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 11:17
I'd imagine you could use any of Paul's PSUs with his head amp - including an SR7! :eek:
Marco.
Looking at Paul's website I see just different SR1s
His website probably needs updating. I'm sure he'll be along shortly to outline costs :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 11:36
Marco, you are quite right about me disagreeing on the power supply! The walwart is no limitation on sound quality and if I built a £5000 unit it would still use a walwart!
Mine also uses ultra low noise JFET circuitry and "super regulator" developed for low noise MC applications. A new regulator design is under way though which should increase the performance. The cost will remain the same.
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 12:06
I wonder what all this stuff sonds like with a paradise phonostage :eyebrows:
Paul Hynes
18-12-2013, 12:15
Hi Andy,
If you want to try the head amp I can have one sent to you in the new year towards the end of January.
Regards
Paul
I wonder what all this stuff sonds like with a paradise phonostage :eyebrows:
Marco, you are quite right about me disagreeing on the power supply! The walwart is no limitation on sound quality and if I built a £5000 unit it would still use a walwart!
Lol - you'll not be shocked to know that that revelation doesn't exactly surprise me! :eyebrows:
Whilst you undoubtedly understand the technicalities of your design far better than I do, I can't help but identify, subjectively, what my experience tells me is most likely a power supply related issue - and that is probably why that out of two very good head amp designs, I prefer Paul's.
Basically, the intrinsic sonic signature of both units is similar, but Paul's sounds more dynamic, as well as bigger, bolder, higher and wider (in terms of soundstage) than yours (although yours in still no slouch in that area): essentially, with Paul's unit, the sound 'escapes' more from in between the speakers, which IME are all traits of a superior PSU, as a result of the use of a high-quality (over-specified) linear power supply.
I can hear exactly same thing with Stan's Bushmaster DAC, in terms of how it performs with its stock walwart PSU (which is very good indeed, given the cost), and how it does at Martin's place, powered from an SR3, which is in an entirely different sonic league - the difference there really is 'night and day'!!
The only way I'll be convinced differently, in that respect, is if you can design two identical head amps, where the only variable is that one unit is powered by a walwart, and the other, a 'beefy' linear PSU. Could you do that - or could one perhaps connect one of Paul's external PSUs to your head amp?
Mine also uses ultra low noise JFET circuitry and "super regulator" developed for low noise MC applications.
Even more reason, then, to suspect that the difference I'm hearing is down to the respective PSUs! ;)
A new regulator design is under way though which should increase the performance. The cost will remain the same.
That sounds interesting. When you've applied the modification, be sure to let me reassess the unit again.
Marco.
I wonder what all this stuff sonds like with a paradise phonostage :eyebrows:
Undoubtedly superb, as I rate Si's design abilities - I'm sure that the Paradise sounds fantastic. How it would compare with, for example, the combination of the valve MM stage in my Croft and Paul's head amp, is anyone's guess.
Why don't we have a bake-off sometime and assess a few things? We could also compare Techies... You guys are not exactly a million miles away! :)
Marco.
The only way I'll be convinced differently, in that respect, is if you can design two identical head amps, where the only variable is that one unit is powered by a walwart, and the other, a 'beefy' linear PSU. Could you do that - or could one perhaps connect one of Paul's external PSUs to your head amp?
Yep, Jez, that would be an excellent experiment. All things the same, just your wallwart versus a butch and well over-specified power supply, same voltage. You never know, perhaps we could persuade you of the merits of big PSUs?
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 13:21
Lol - you'll not be shocked to know that that revelation doesn't exactly surprise me! :eyebrows:
Whilst you undoubtedly understand the technicalities of your design far better than I do, I can't help but identify, subjectively, what my experience tells me is most likely a power supply related issue - and that is probably why that out of two very good head amp designs, I prefer Paul's.
Basically, the intrinsic sonic signature of both units is similar, but Paul's sounds more dynamic, as well as bigger, bolder, higher and wider (in terms of soundstage) than yours (although yours in still no slouch in that area): essentially, with Paul's unit, the sound 'escapes' more from in between the speakers, which IME are all traits of a superior PSU, as a result of the use of a high-quality (over-specified) linear power supply.
I can hear exactly same thing with Stan's Bushmaster DAC, in terms of how it performs with its stock walwart PSU (which is very good indeed, given the cost), and how it does at Martin's place, powered from an SR3, which is in an entirely different sonic league - the difference there really is 'night and day'!!
The only way I'll be convinced differently, in that respect, is if you can design two identical head amps, where the only variable is that one is powered by a walwart, and the other, a 'beefy' linear PSU. Could you do that - or could one perhaps connect one of Paul's external PSUs to your head amp?
Even more reason, then, to suspect that the difference I'm hearing is down to the respective PSUs! ;)
That sounds interesting. When you've applied the modification, be sure to let me reassess the unit again.
Marco.
I know it isn't ;)
On a side issue here I'll hope you won't mind me commenting that your opinion on the phono stages seems to have changed somewhat since we spoke on the phone about them .... I recall you saying that both mine and the PH design were the two best step up devices you had ever heard and that although you could hear minor differences between them you were not sure which you preferred.... and this after using both for a week or more.... :scratch:
Yep, Jez, that would be an excellent experiment. All things the same, just your wallwart versus a butch and well over-specified power supply, same voltage. You never know, perhaps we could persuade you of the merits of big PSUs?
Indeed. The only thing we'd have to consider is that the circuit Jez uses is designed apparently to be immune from the usual benefits of adding an external linear PSU.
Therefore, what we could really do with comparing is Jez's 'best efforts', with a head amp, where one unit is optimised for use with a walwart, and the other, an over-specced linear PSU, otherwise simply adding a linear PSU to a circuit not designed to facilitate one, will tell us precious little.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 13:33
Yep, Jez, that would be an excellent experiment. All things the same, just your wallwart versus a butch and well over-specified power supply, same voltage. You never know, perhaps we could persuade you of the merits of big PSUs?
I'm afraid not Martin :) I am 100% certain that the wallwart is not a limitation to performance. I could go on at length as to why and have indeed done so in the past but I dare say this is another one of those subjects where no amount of technical argument will persuade those who "believe" otherwise :)
I can of course build mega external linear regulated supplies for customers who want one but I won't be making one for myself and they would be sold with the advice that it won't make a difference! What a salesman I am eh :D
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 13:39
Indeed. The only thing we'd have to consider is that the circuit Jez uses is designed apparently to be immune from the usual benefits of adding an external linear PSU.
Therefore, what we could really do with comparing is Jez's 'best efforts', with a head amp, where one unit is optimised for use with a walwart, and the other, an over-specced linear PSU, otherwise simply adding a linear PSU to a circuit not designed to facilitate one, will tell us precious little.
Marco.
It's not optimised for a wallwart.... it's more a case of it's designed to be totally insensitive to the power supply. You could feed it un-smoothed pulsating DC and it still would make no difference!
On a side issue here I'll hope you won't mind me commenting that your opinion on the phono stages seems to have changed somewhat since we spoke on the phone about them .... I recall you saying that both mine and the PH design were the two best step up devices you had ever heard and that although you could hear minor differences between them you were not sure which you preferred.... and this after using both for a week or more.... :scratch:
It's simply the case that my opinion has further developed through more extended listening to both units, with different types of music, which highlight better the issues I've raised, and also what I discovered at Martin's place, when comparing both head amps there, and so I now have a clearer picture of what's going on.
I wouldn't let it worry you, dude, as essentially all that's being compared is two different versions of excellence, one of which will appeal more to some than others :)
Marco.
It's not optimised for a wallwart.... it's more a case of it's designed to be totally insensitive to the power supply. You could feed it un-smoothed pulsating DC and it still would make no difference!
Well, why not let one of us be the judge of that? You screaming, in no uncertain terms, that it will make no difference is unlikely to convince anyone here who's ultimate arbiter is their ears.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate it if you could answer this (especially the latter bit):
The only way I'll be convinced differently, in that respect, is if you can design two identical head amps, where the only variable is that one is powered by a walwart, and the other, a 'beefy' linear PSU. Could you do that - or could one perhaps connect one of Paul's external PSUs to your head amp?
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Marco.
Indeed. The only thing we'd have to consider is that the circuit Jez uses is designed apparently to be immune from the usual benefits of adding an external linear PSU.
So is Stan's Bushmaster 2, this was a particular design criteria. And yet running it from a battery makes an incredible difference to its sound quality.
Lol - that says it all in terms of what we think we 'know' about power supply design... Hey, at least this episode shows that (unlike believed by some), I'm not wedded to transformers! ;)
The reality is I'm only 'wedded' to what I think sounds best (at any given time). None of my opinions in audio are ever written in stone!
Marco.
P.S Did you get my last PM, dude?
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 14:20
Well, why not let one of us be the judge of that? You screaming, in no uncertain terms, that it will make no difference is unlikely to convince anyone here who's ultimate arbiter is their ears.
Marco.
I won't be supplying one with an external regulated supply for comparison I'm afraid.... My products are an extension of my own convictions on hifi and one thing I'm determined on (no doubt every sales, marketing and PR person will be having apoplexies at this!) is that I am not going to follow the latest fads and rumours in order to make sales.... IMHO probably around 70% of accepted wisdom in hifi today is simply wrong (it's the way it is for marketing reasons) and I'm not one to follow the well trodden path just because it's kind of expected.... e.g. it's accepted wisdom that wallwarts are a bad idea and suitable only for budget products and woe betide any manufacture who tries to sell anything without it's own bespoke PSU.... accepted wisdom yes, but wrong! I'm therefore taking a gamble with commercial suicide by trusting that there are enough people out there who can see through the marketing BS that afflicts the industry and, hopefully, find my take on things a refreshing change :)
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 14:20
So is Stan's Bushmaster 2, this was a particular design criteria. And yet running it from a battery makes an incredible difference to its sound quality.
And speaking as Mr.Non Technical
A bbbbbbattery that's insane !
Oh it sounds better, hmm, shuffle, shuffle
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 14:24
So is Stan's Bushmaster 2, this was a particular design criteria. And yet running it from a battery makes an incredible difference to its sound quality.
Running mine from batteries would make no difference. I repeat that it can even be fed raw un smoothed DC and it will have no effect!
And I repeat: let one of us be the judge of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many exclamation marks does it take to robustly get one's point across?
Bet I can beat you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ner: :ner:
Marco.
A bbbbbbattery that's insane !
Not necessarily. A modern lithium polymer battery has two features that not even an oversized mains PSU will have:
1) very low output impedance
2) virtually zero noise
I won't be supplying one with an external regulated supply for comparison I'm afraid.... My products are an extension of my own convictions on hifi and one thing I'm determined on (no doubt every sales, marketing and PR person will be having apoplexies at this!) is that I am not going to follow the latest fads and rumours in order to make sales.... IMHO probably around 70% of accepted wisdom in hifi today is simply wrong (it's the way it is for marketing reasons) and I'm not one to follow the well trodden path just because it's kind of expected.... e.g. it's accepted wisdom that wallwarts are a bad idea and suitable only for budget products and woe betide any manufacture who tries to sell anything without it's own bespoke PSU.... accepted wisdom yes, but wrong! I'm therefore taking a gamble with commercial suicide by trusting that there are enough people out there who can see through the marketing BS that afflicts the industry and, hopefully, find my take on things a refreshing change :)
Sorry, Jez. I don't see the approach you've just described as a "refreshing change" at all, but rather quite the opposite: it is closed-minded, dogmatic and absolutist.
The audio designers I respect most are those who continue to push the boundaries of what currently accepted wisdom (or 'Johnny's textbook of advanced electronics') states as being 'fact'. The problem you have is that your approach is entirely based upon the premise that you are unquestionably right!
What if you're wrong about some of your views on power supplies? The best designers, IMO, are those who stay true to their convictions, yes, but just as importantly, remain open-minded to the possibility of learning something new, which may fly in the face of what they currently consider as 'fact'.............
You simply don't show any evidence of having that skill, not to mention the humility to concede that in some areas you could be wrong, and for me, that's not the sign of good designer, but simply an arrogant egotist. You're just way too stuck in your ways, mate, and as such have gone down in my estimation, and I suspect also that of many of our members.
The worst thing is that you insist on telling people what they should be hearing, rather than allowing them to make up their minds for themselves. Worst of all, though, is that you continue to trot out condescending and insulting nonsense, such as this, seemingly with no notion of it being perceived as such by the recipient:
I could go on at length as to why and have indeed done so in the past but I dare say this is another one of those subjects where no amount of technical argument will persuade those who "believe" otherwise...
:doh: :rolleyes:
You really haven't learned much from our chat on the phone, have you, if you consider remarks like that are acceptable here?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 14:55
Sorry, Jez. I don't see the approach you've just described at as a "refreshing change" at all, but rather quite the opposite: it is closed-minded, dogmatic and absolutist.
The audio designers I respect most are those who continue to push the boundaries of what currently accepted wisdom (or 'Johnny's textbook of advanced electronics') states as being 'fact'.
You're way too stuck in your ways, mate, and as such have gone down in my estimation, and I suspect also that of many of our members.
The worst thing is that you insist on telling people what they should be hearing, rather than allowing them to make up their minds for themselves. Worst of all, though, you continue to trot out condescending and insulting nonsense, such as this:
:doh: :rolleyes:
You really haven't learned much from our chat on the phone, have you, if you consider remarks like that are acceptable here?
Marco.
If you don't consider that acceptable then I really have nothing further to say to you Marco.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 14:57
Not necessarily. A modern lithium polymer battery has two features that not even an oversized mains PSU will have:
1) very low output impedance
2) virtually zero noise
A regulated supply can easily beat a lithium polymer battery on both!
The point in all of this being that it's the regulator that's important not the power supply.
If you don't consider that acceptable then I really have nothing further to say to you Marco.
What's NOT acceptable is to condescendingly assign terminology such as 'belief' to people's perfectly valid opinions in audio, which are contrary to yours, simply because they don't correspond to your rigid and inflexible views as audio engineer.
Perhaps "those who believe otherwise" (when in fact all they're actually doing is using their valid subjective opinion to judge what they're hearing) are actually right? But of course you're so arrogantly wrapped up in the 'I'm and engineer, so I'm able to judge what you're hearing better than you can' crap, to even consider that possibility! :rolleyes:
I honestly wonder sometimes why you're here, other than to sell things, as you show little sign of trying to fit in with our subjective ethos.
Marco.
A regulated supply can easily beat a lithium polymer battery on both!
Come on Jez, I'm not talking about a PSU built for a power amplifier. The instantaneous current that a LiPO battery can produce can start fires!
On the noise front, I simply don't believe that a mains regulated PSU can achieve that low a noise level and still supply decent current.
However, if you're determined that the regulator inside your head amp is more impervious than any commercial design heard up to now, I guess we should stop at this point.
However, if you're determined that the regulator inside your head amp is more impervious than any commercial design heard up to now, I guess we should stop at this point.
Well, listening results so far certainly don't bear that out.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 15:24
Come on Jez, I'm not talking about a PSU built for a power amplifier. The instantaneous current that a LiPO battery can produce can start fires!
On the noise front, I simply don't believe that a mains regulated PSU can achieve that low a noise level and still supply decent current.
However, if you're determined that the regulator inside your head amp is more impervious than any commercial design heard up to now, I guess we should stop at this point.
There is a huge difference between prospective short circuit current and output impedance. A regulator can have a maximum output current of 10mA and yet still have lower output impedance than a power source which can start fires!
There is much more than just a regulator involved in the internal power arrangements of my head amp.... and yes it very likely is more impervious than any commercial design! Why? 'cos in most high end stuff there would be a separate PSU which would be smoothed and often regulated to the point that the unit taking the power doesn't need to be designed to be this impervious... and so it isn't...
Everything you find in a very expensive outboard linear regulated supply is in the head amp itself, the wallwart is merely equivalent to moving the transformer to another box.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2013, 15:26
Well, listening results so far certainly don't bear that out.
Marco.
They do to me..... but obviously I would say that wouldn't I
Others can make up there own mind if/as/when they try it.
They do to me..... but obviously I would say that wouldn't I
Indeed. Most importantly, though, it's not you who's going to be buying your products! ;)
Marco.
I wonder what all this stuff sonds like with a paradise phonostage :eyebrows:
Andrew, none of this stuff will work, or is required, with the Paradise as they are all MC step-up devices and associated power supplies. The Paradise is a custom MC only stage and already has a dual mono and extensively regulated power supply.
Marco, are you suggesting that Jez should include design elements just because potential buyers like the idea even if he, as the engineer, believes they will make no difference? Sounds a bit like that...
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 16:07
Indeed. Most importantly, though, you're not the one who's going to be buying your products! ;)
Marco.
I'm very keen to find out what our customers think of us, how we can improve and how potential customers will buy from us. I'm well aware of being blinkered by being in and running the company.
Once upon a time our slogan was "any colour as long as it's black"
Then I had a realisation I was cutting us off from work
I've been persuaded into colour printing by the increasing demand - and it keeps going up and up, from some customers who are charity and non profit. I don't understand, but I'm deliriously happy to have the work :)
Marco, are you suggesting that Jez should include design elements just because potential buyers like the idea even if he, as the engineer, believes they will make no difference? Sounds a bit like that...
Not at all, Mark! Of course Jez is free to design his products as he wishes. That is fundamentally not the issue here.
I'm simply saying that he has to learn how to express his opinion (and that's all it is, not fact) without being arrogant, or simultaneously demeaning the contrary views of others, which is how his 'belief' remark came across earlier, whether he realises it or not.
I will simply not tolerate that condescending and absolutist crap here. There's enough of it on pfm and Wigwam to last a lifetime. Anyone who joins this forum must realise that our ethos is staunchly subjectivist, and thus temper their responses to others with that fact in mind, as otherwise they won't be here for long.
Most of all, though, members must be respectful at all times towards the equally valid views of others, whether they disagree with them or not, as otherwise all it does is causes annoyance and resentment, and I won't have that sort of vibe on AoS.
Simples! :)
Marco.
I'm very keen to find out what our customers think of us, how we can improve and how potential customers will buy from us. I'm well aware of being blinkered by being in and running the company.
Once upon a time our slogan was "any colour as long as it's black"
Then I had a realisation I was cutting us off from work
I've been persuaded into colour printing by the increasing demand - and it keeps going up and up, from some customers who are charity and non profit. I don't understand, but I'm deliriously happy to have the work :)
It's called being open-minded, Mike, and prioritising the needs of your customers, rather than pacifying your own ego.
Marco.
Not necessarily. A modern lithium polymer battery has two features that not even an oversized mains PSU will have:
1) very low output impedance
2) virtually zero noise
just like a linear power supply surely?
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 16:47
Andrew, none of this stuff will work, or is required, with the Paradise as they are all MC step-up devices and associated power supplies. The Paradise is a custom MC only stage and already has a dual mono and extensively regulated power supply.
Yeah I realised a nanosecond later we only have mc input:doh:
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 16:50
I predict a riot, I'm now going to hide here :sofa: and listen to my new vinyl hoard.
I hear what you are saying Marco, but as Jez is the actual designer of said product, the man who consciously made every decision regarding its creation, it's hardly surprising if he is reluctant to take design advice from those with little understanding of the technical matters.
I hear what you are saying Marco, but as Jez is the actual designer of said product, the man who consciously made every decision regarding its creation, it's hardly surprising if he is reluctant to take design advice from those with little understanding of the technical matters.
You're not getting the point, Mark. It's go nothing to do with how he designs his products and everything to do with his unfortunate way of expressing himself.
I should've predicted this, as Jez never did seem the type who'd be able to take criticism of his products on the chin, least of all accept a rival's design reviewed as being better than his! His fragile ego will simply not allow it.
Anyway, I've had enough of this now. The points I've made should be crystal clear to everyone, so let's please leave the matter there.
Marco.
Paul Hynes
18-12-2013, 17:02
Why would you need an understanding of technical matters to hear equipment differences. That’s what ears are for.
Precisely, Paul!
The problem is that Jez is on one-man mission to 'educate the uninitiated', when the reality is, it is he, in certain areas, which needs educating (and I'm not necessarily talking here about electronics).
Marco.
Why would you need an understanding of technical matters to hear equipment differences. That’s what ears are for.
The sad thing is I think some prefer to type and read rather than listen! They need proof it sounds better and do not trust their own ears. This comment is not directed at anybody in particular. :)
The sad thing is I think some prefer to type and read rather than listen! They need proof it sounds better and do not trust their own ears. This comment is not directed at anybody in particular. :)
:lol::scratch:
Hearing a difference and extrapolating those differences in to design decisions are entirely different things.
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 17:19
The sad thing is I think some prefer to type and read rather than listen! They need proof it sounds better and do not trust their own ears. This comment is not directed at anybody in particular. :)
Good point, why would anyone spend 1,2,3,4,5K on a piece of kit without evaluating in a system first? Frankly I don't give a shit how the piece of kit is designed if I think Im getting value for money and it improves what I'm listening to, then it can have some rack space in my listening room. Now I'm off back behind the sofa.
To recap for my own information, Martin already stated the Mike New ETP Platter is the best he has yet heard on his Techy, would that be fair? Marco you agree 100% with him that the same platter is the best yet heard on your Techy?
And all without a mat (as I thought would be the case using my clearaudio TT which has a delrin platter and no mat)
SUT's and head amps don't really interest me as I don't need them in my system.
Thanks for the feedback chaps.
Good point, why would anyone spend 1,2,3,4,5K on a piece of kit without evaluating in a system first? Frankly I don't give a shit how the piece of kit is designed if I think Im getting value for money and it improves what I'm listening to, then it can have some rack space in my listening room. Now I'm off back behind the sofa.
You need to sit on it dude facing your system, not behind it, robust arguments like we sometimes have are good for the soul and relieve the boredom of everyday existence ....:lol:
We never had this aggravation at the pre Crimbo Techie bake off- thought these things were for fun purposes only.:scratch:
You're not getting the point, Mark.
Well, that would be because that is not the point I was addressing in my response.
Anyway, none of this debacle actually has anything to do with me so I will leave it there.
Hearing a difference and extrapolating those differences in to design decisions are entirely different things.
Indeed, but that is of no consquence whatsoever if you're simply an end user of product and music lover, not a designer. In that scenario, all one needs are ears!
(Unless you are one of those unfortunate 'measurements obsessives', who suffers from cognitive dissonance).
Marco.
That would be because that is not the point I was addressing.
That's fine, but I wasn't arguing or disagreeing with the point you were addressing! :D
Marco.
To recap for my own information, Martin already stated the Mike New ETP Platter is the best he has yet heard on his Techy, would that be fair? Marco you agree 100% with him that the same platter is the best yet heard on your Techy?
And all without a mat (as I thought would be the case using my clearaudio TT which has a delrin platter and no mat)
Yup, that would be a reasonable précis :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
18-12-2013, 18:46
Well that's Jez gone from the forum.
Wakefield Turntables
18-12-2013, 19:30
Well that's Jez gone from the forum.
Shame.
Ali Tait
18-12-2013, 19:47
Yep.
Indeed. I can assure you that it's certainly not how I wanted things to end - far from it! :rolleyes:
However, apart from refusing to take our dispute to PM, as he'd been politely asked, and continuing it here regardless, despite being warned about what would happen if he did that, he quite clearly was unable to accept the subjectivist ethos of the forum, especially the bit about respecting the contrary opinions of others, even if subconsciously he thought that they were 'idiots who believed in fairies at the end of the garden'.
Jez was never at any point being censored (he's perfectly entitled to his opinions on audio design), or told how to build things, but when someone shows such blatant disregard for the views of others that don't align with his, as well as the type of behaviour expected of members here, and the wishes of the forum owner, then I'm afraid they are no longer welcome.
Also, he clearly didn't take too kindly to any constructive criticism of his head amp design, and that is not an attitude which gains one respect on AoS.
If, as an audio designer, you submit a product you've produced for critical appraisal (effectively putting your ass on the line), then you must have the balls to allow your design to be scrutinised, and thus be prepared to receive critical remarks about it, not merely glowing praise!
Now, folks, that's an end to the matter, so let's please leave it there and get the thread back on topic.
Marco.
The sad thing is I think some prefer to type and read rather than listen! They need proof it sounds better and do not trust their own ears. This comment is not directed at anybody in particular. :)
I don't always trust my own ears, because of the variables that the grey stuff in between can often introduce. Of course there are people who think that they are magically immune to this (again this isn't directed at anyone in particular). What I do trust is long-term listening and how it makes me feel.
I don't always trust my own ears, because of the variables that the grey stuff in between can often introduce.
Indeed, Neil, and I don't just automatically trust my ears either. That's why I assess all equipment and ancillaries in my system over a considerable period of time, and satisfy my subjective judgement criteria first, before forming any conclusive opinions. Only at that point, do I ultimately trust my ears.
Please pay particular attention to the words in bold, as they are very important to the point I'm making... ;)
At the end of the above assessment process, once I'm satisfied that what I'm hearing is real (although I'm perfectly happy for an element of doubt to remain, indicating that I could be imagining it), then no amount of 'scientific facts', paraded belligerently in front of my nose by objectivists, as supposed 'proof' of my 'delusions', are likely to change my mind, unless it can be proven to me irrefutably (on my terms) that I'm wrong.
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 21:29
It's called being open-minded, Mike, and prioritising the needs of your customers, rather than pacifying your own ego.
Marco.
And self serving in at least two ways as well
1. We get more business
2. I feel better about it
Only problem is sometimes I'm too open
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 21:35
I hear what you are saying Marco, but as Jez is the actual designer of said product, the man who consciously made every decision regarding its creation, it's hardly surprising if he is reluctant to take design advice from those with little understanding of the technical matters.
We run a Docutech at work. Monster laser printer, 10,000 an hour, great bit of kit.
Incredible invention. Fabulous software.
We do things with it that baffle Xerox - cos we're users who have to make things happen.
We do things that "can't be done"
We also get it working sometimes with bendy bits of wire and stuff shoved into it
Maybe not a 100% metaphor but I think it at least partially serves
MikeMusic
18-12-2013, 21:37
Why would you need an understanding of technical matters to hear equipment differences. That’s what ears are for.
Top man Paul. Absolutely
PaulStewart
18-12-2013, 22:06
What I find so disappointing, as someone who was trained as a scientist is that this presented a perfect basis for further research if approach with an open mind. From data on this thread and other comments on this forum, we can extrapolate that.
1) The two head amps used similar ideas and components in their core circuits.
2) Paul uses items such as pure silver wire and what are perceived to be higher quality components
3) The PH device has an over spec'd power supply
The way forward would have surely been to swop out the parts in the Arkless device one by one, added a high spec external PSU and listened to see which, if any changes improved the SQ and brought it in line with the PH unit. That would have settled the matter and perhaps provided Jez with a design strategy. I know that ALL the major consumer electronics firms did this when I was in the trade in the 70s.
Believe me I'm not knocking Jez personally, but this is an engineer's mind set I've encountered before. I had an engineer from JVC working for me at the old Harrowgate show back in the day, following research, we had just started putting binding posts on the top end speakers and amps instead of those horrid spring clips. Having made up spades on the new OFC cables sent over from Japan, I said to the guy, "Make sure you do the posts up tight please, we've found it gives a better sound" His reply was "No it can't do , a connection is a connection, won't make any difference". Sadly that sort of thing, can often be the engineers attitude in my experience.
We run a Docutech at work. Monster laser printer, 10,000 an hour, great bit of kit.
Incredible invention. Fabulous software.
We do things with it that baffle Xerox - cos we're users who have to make things happen.
We do things that "can't be done"
We also get it working sometimes with bendy bits of wire and stuff shoved into it
Maybe not a 100% metaphor but I think it at least partially serves
An entirely irrelevant metaphor I would say - but hey, not my problem.
Excellent post, Paul. The "engineer's mindset" thing, says it all, as I've encountered that sort of stubbornly 'I am right, because I know' way of thinking before, from people like Jez, and it does my head in! This tends to be the rather blinkered domain of so-called 'objectivists'.
Like you say, REAL scientists, together with the best audio engineers, do not possess such an arrogant and dogmatic approach. They're quite willing to embrace the notion that in certain areas they may be wrong (or at least not fully right), as well as the possibility that there are still new things to learn.
What you have suggested is entirely reasonable, in terms of testing the design of the respective head amps, but not for someone who has a fragile ego to massage. Quite simply, closed minds and absolutism do not advance the scientific process! :nono:
Marco.
It's a fact that some engineers become so wedded to their own creations that a doctrine is formed from which they refuse to budge. There can be a great deal of satisfaction gained by exploring off piste, a thing such people find almost impossible to entertain... :rolleyes:
It's a fact that some engineers become so wedded to their own creations that a doctrine is formed from which they refuse to budge.
Ain't that the truth [sadly]! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Setting Son
18-12-2013, 23:12
I'm new here but I have to say that any engineer that can develop a regulator that is impervious to it's PS should file a patent application asap!
Also, it's a fact that powering a product with a third party, CE marked wall wart neatly gets around having to worry about compliance with the EU Low Voltage Directive. Hence we all have dozens of the damn things in our homes.
I'm new here but I have to say that any engineer that can develop a regulator that is impervious to it's PS should file a patent application asap!
Also, it's a fact that powering a product with a third party, CE marked wall wart neatly gets around having to worry about compliance with the EU Low Voltage Directive. Hence we all have dozens of the damn things in our homes.
There's a lot of truth in that and if I haven't said so already, welcome to AoS Lee ;)
PaulStewart
18-12-2013, 23:29
The instantaneous current that a LiPO battery can produce can start fires!
This is sort of off topic but, illustrates a point. My Mrs. and I were photographing a private tea event for a veterans charity Present were Michael Portillo, then the Defence Secretary, General Dannatt, Chief of the Defence Staff, The Israeli Ambassador and many other dignitaries so you can imagine security was very high. The Mrs. puts her gold chain necklace into the same pocket as her spare LiPo camera battery as the camera strap was making it chafe her neck. Within seconds she said to me "Can you smell burning"? I said "Yes you're on fire" Said battery had welded the chain into a gold wire and burned right through her photographers waistcoat and ignited it. I suppose that we are pretty lucky the security didn't shoot her :) Not only that, but I can confirm that as it discharged, it was silent :laugh:
walpurgis
18-12-2013, 23:43
That's why those batteries come with a plastic cover!
PaulStewart
18-12-2013, 23:46
That's why those batteries come with a plastic cover!
Yes, she knows that now..... She's still got the twisted remains of the £250.00 5th anniversary prezzie as a reminder :mad:
Setting Son
18-12-2013, 23:51
There's a lot of truth in that and if I haven't said so already, welcome to AoS Lee ;)
Thanks for the welcome.
(Looking forward to hearing the bearing that Darren is bringing to mine on Friday!)
This is sort of off topic but, illustrates a point. My Mrs. and I were photographing a private tea event for a veterans charity Present were Michael Portillo, then the Defence Secretary, General Dannatt, Chief of the Defence Staff, The Israeli Ambassador and many other dignitaries so you can imagine security was very high. The Mrs. puts her gold chain necklace into the same pocket as her spare LiPo camera battery as the camera strap was making it chafe her neck. Within seconds she said to me "Can you smell burning"? I said "Yes you're on fire" Said battery had welded the chain into a gold wire and burned right through her photographers waistcoat and ignited it. I suppose that we are pretty lucky the security didn't shoot her :) Not only that, but I can confirm that as it discharged, it was silent :laugh:
:rfl:
Paul Hynes
19-12-2013, 00:20
Hi Lee,
You are absolutely right regarding the perfect power supply. It should have zero impedance at all load operating frequencies (no interaction whatsoever with the load) and infinite supply line rejection at any frequency (no mains dependability). I have not seen any power supply with this capability in my lifetime and there is certainly no regulator on the planet that can do this. Obviously, the closer you can approach this ideal the better the result will be, but absolute perfection will never be obtained with current technology.
Welcome to the forum.
Hi Lee,
Welcome to AoS. Do we know know each other from the old days of the Naim forum? ;)
I'm new here but I have to say that any engineer that can develop a regulator that is impervious to it's PS should file a patent application asap!
Also, it's a fact that powering a product with a third party, CE marked wall wart neatly gets around having to worry about compliance with the EU Low Voltage Directive. Hence we all have dozens of the damn things in our homes.
Spot on, on both points!
The second one certainly highlights something that I hadn't previously considered... Therefore, perhaps that is what was *really* behind the stubborn belligerence from Jez, in terms of his stance on walwarts, and his resolute refusal to entertain the sonic benefits of over-specified linear PSUs was simply a smokescreen to make his life easier as a designer?
Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying the forum. It's good to have you here :)
Marco.
You are absolutely right regarding the perfect power supply. It should have zero impedance at all load operating frequencies (no interaction whatsoever with the load) and infinite supply line rejection at any frequency (no mains dependability). I have not seen any power supply with this capability in my lifetime and there is certainly no regulator on the planet that can do this. Obviously, the closer you can approach this ideal the better the result will be, but absolute perfection will never be obtained with current technology.
I'm sure you're not alone in having that view, Paul, and your thoughts on this matter would most likely be echoed by the likes of Nick Gorham, Anthony Matthews, and any of our other resident professional audio designers, but of course Jez wanted to create the facade of a guru, who knew better than anyone else, thinking that it would ultimately help sell his products to those gullible enough to fall for it, and who sought such reassurance.
The problem is, he was expecting the same universal praise here for his head amp design, as he's received on pfm for his modified Cambridge 640P phono stage, and when that clearly wasn't materialising, he decided to cut his losses and run, but not before he had a 'little pop' at those in opposition to his views. Jez was clearly someone who craved attention, and was fine when things were rosy, but ultimately couldn't handle any constructive criticism of his products or design methodology.
It's all rather sad, as if he'd shown a better attitude, both his business and AoS could have greatly benefited. Anyway, I shall say nothing more on the matter, as Jez no longer has the right of reply.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
19-12-2013, 06:34
Hi Lee,
Welcome to AoS. Do we know know each other from the old days of the Naim forum? ;)
Spot on, on both points!
The second one certainly highlights something that I hadn't previously considered... Therefore, perhaps that is what was *really* behind the stubborn belligerence from Jez, in terms of his stance on walwarts, and his resolute refusal to entertain the sonic benefits of over-specified linear PSUs was simply a smokescreen to make his life easier as a designer?
Anyway, I'm glad you're enjoying the forum. It's good to have you here :)
Marco.
Or maybe not. Jez's wallwarts were linear not smps. Jez's point really was that he had designed a perfectly adequate supply - half a linear was in a box called a wallwart - the other half inside the amp case work from scratch. This post refered to smps. Regarding an earlier post on this thread stans efforts to "tame the wallwart" related specifically to smps and not the transformer bridge rectifier supplies jez was using - partly for the benefit of locating the transformer away from the signal path. I know another engineer who has achieved stans aspirations with smps on a power amp for professional use (and other designs). He avoids hifi forums. I can see how some "house styles" akin to cult or clan identities arise as the forum attracts those that conform and repels those that fail to. Nice if u like chatting with like minded folk. Slightly disappointing if u are looking for an open forum to debate :(
Ammonite Audio
19-12-2013, 06:40
Hi Lee,
You are absolutely right regarding the perfect power supply. It should have zero impedance at all load operating frequencies (no interaction whatsoever with the load) and infinite supply line rejection at any frequency (no mains dependability). I have not seen any power supply with this capability in my lifetime and there is certainly no regulator on the planet that can do this. Obviously, the closer you can approach this ideal the better the result will be, but absolute perfection will never be obtained with current technology.
Welcome to the forum.
You were up late - was it a bit windy in South Uist?
Oldpinkman
19-12-2013, 06:44
This is sort of off topic but, illustrates a point. My Mrs. and I were photographing a private tea event for a veterans charity Present were Michael Portillo, then the Defence Secretary, General Dannatt, Chief of the Defence Staff, The Israeli Ambassador and many other dignitaries so you can imagine security was very high. The Mrs. puts her gold chain necklace into the same pocket as her spare LiPo camera battery as the camera strap was making it chafe her neck. Within seconds she said to me "Can you smell burning"? I said "Yes you're on fire" Said battery had welded the chain into a gold wire and burned right through her photographers waistcoat and ignited it. I suppose that we are pretty lucky the security didn't shoot her :) Not only that, but I can confirm that as it discharged, it was silent :laugh:
I don't understand the point it illustrates. Lipos igniting is well known - ask boeing. I believe the general safety recomendation is not to short the terminals. Not even with gold connectors.
sq225917
19-12-2013, 08:19
Not necessarily. A modern lithium polymer battery has two features that not even an oversized mains PSU will have:
1) very low output impedance
2) virtually zero noise
Actually both those statements aren't necessarily correct. Output impedance will be in the miliohm range, so is any decent PSU and larger batteries,something with a decent maH or offering more than say a dozen volts have quite a bit of noise, circa -100db. What they uniquely have is zero gnd noise.
sq225917
19-12-2013, 08:31
Marco I believe jez used the wallwart because it supplied him with the needed voltage and current to run his head amp. I think some people might be confusing using a simple wall wart as the first link between the wall and the device under test, and using it as the sole component in the PSU.
Jez's headamp contains multiple cascaded stages of regulation and achieves better than -130db psrr across the audio band. Some of you are confusing the bucket that the petrol is delivered in with the Ferrari engine that it is running.
Actually both those statements aren't necessarily correct......
Indeed. Betteries are a chemical reaction and therefore variable, impedance varies with temperature, age, state of charge and frequency (although its pretty much linear for audio). They have lowish voltage noise and can exhibit current noise depending on load.
. I can see how some "house styles" akin to cult or clan identities arise as the forum attracts those that conform and repels those that fail to. Nice if u like chatting with like minded folk. Slightly disappointing if u are looking for an open forum to debate :(
I agree. It makes for a very dull forum and that does seem to be the direction this site is heading in.
Marco - I understand the 'vibe' you want for AoS but you arer way too heavy handed with your moderation.
Gordon Steadman
19-12-2013, 09:09
I find all these endless discussions about what is right and wrong a bit soul destroying. If only I didn't get the impression that its become all about 'boys toys' and all that means to the egos involved.
I am not in any way technically minded and so have to agree that my music / hi-fi system has to be chosen entirely by what ears I have left. I cannot be anything other than 'subjective'.
However, I have enormous respect for the guys that actually know what they are doing and have to trust their judgement. If I had to 'choose a side' it would be with the camp that suggests all the differences that people hear in stuff like mains cables are so minute as to be meaningless. In 50 years of listening, I have never yet heard anything to convince me otherwise. Fine, for those that are convinced they can, carry on chaps and spend your dosh the way you choose.
This argument is both pointless and inevitable so it just has to be put up with. I wish both sides could be a bit less volatile.
Ali Tait
19-12-2013, 09:43
Marco I believe jez used the wallwart because it supplied him with the needed voltage and current to run his head amp. I think some people might be confusing using a simple wall wart as the first link between the wall and the device under test, and using it as the sole component in the PSU.
Jez's headamp contains multiple cascaded stages of regulation and achieves better than -130db psrr across the audio band. Some of you are confusing the bucket that the petrol is delivered in with the Ferrari engine that it is running.
+1
Ali Tait
19-12-2013, 09:43
I agree. It makes for a very dull forum and that does seem to be the direction this site is heading in.
Marco - I understand the 'vibe' you want for AoS but you arer way too heavy handed with your moderation.
+1
I can see how some "house styles" akin to cult or clan identities arise as the forum attracts those that conform and repels those that fail to. Nice if u like chatting with like minded folk. Slightly disappointing if u are looking for an open forum to debate :(
Everyone is welcome here, whether they are as 'like-minded' as the majority or not, as long as they conform to the behaviour that is required on this forum, and I'm sick to death of outlining what that is. How many times do I have to write it, before it sinks in?
Clue: it's about respecting the opinions of others, even if you vehemently disagree with them, and posting in style so as not to offend anyone or demean their contrary views.
There, I've said I've said yet again! Maybe this time it will penetrate into some thick skulls?
Jez was banned not because of anything to do with how he chooses to design his kit or because his views on cables or walwart PSUs were diametrically opposed to many here, or because of how 'like-minded' he was compared with others, but purely and simply because he refused to behave as was required (as outlined above), and thought he had the right to say whatever he wanted, regardless of the consequences - and that simply wasn't on.
Quite simply, if he hadn't done that, he'd still be here, walwarts and all!
Now that's really an end to the matter. If I see any more failing to grasp the facts and instead pigheadedly superimposing your own bias onto the actual reality, then it will be removed without further warning.
Marco.
You were up late - was it a bit windy in South Uist?
Lol - I was up listening to music. Blame the PH head amp!! :D
Marco.
Hi Simon,
Marco I believe jez used the wallwart because it supplied him with the needed voltage and current to run his head amp. I think some people might be confusing using a simple wall wart as the first link between the wall and the device under test, and using it as the sole component in the PSU.
Jez's headamp contains multiple cascaded stages of regulation and achieves better than -130db psrr across the audio band. Some of you are confusing the bucket that the petrol is delivered in with the Ferrari engine that it is running.
All of that may be the case. I am in no position to dispute it.
However, none of that accounts for what was heard when his head amp was critically assessed by discerning listeners. The acid test of whether Jez's theory was right, was when his head amp was compared, sonically, to one which employed largely the same technology, but instead featured the use of an over-specified linear PSU.
The latter, to my ears and also those of others present, sounded markedly superior, in the way I have already described. At the end of the day, all the technical theorising in the world means nothing, if it doesn't translate into real-world sonic reality.
Marco.
anubisgrau
19-12-2013, 10:24
isn't an arkless HA PSU inside the HA, not the wallwart?
chris@panteg
19-12-2013, 11:04
isn't an arkless HA PSU inside the HA, not the wallwart?
I believe so ! I think Jez is right to stick to his guns on this, at the end of the day he stands to lose money by taking this approach ?
I believe so ! I think Jez is right to stick to his guns on this, at the end of the day he stands to lose money by taking this approach ?
I hope not. I once wanted to purchase a product but he was not set up for dealing with the antipodes.
Audioman
19-12-2013, 11:50
A phono stage or DAC does not require large amounts of power so it may be a small supply in a wall wart is more than adequate given that the regulation part of the PS is contained within the product. I am assuming that we are dealing with a simple step down rather than a noisy switch mode device here.
However I am not surprised that a designer would take offence in being told how to redesign a product in as much as suggesting he makes a completely different version to keep a number of forum members happy. I expect most of the work Jez did on that design was in optimising for wallwart use. Now you may be right in suspecting this has something to do with EC regs but may be a genuine desire to keep costs down. This approach probably has a lot to do with the affordable price of the Cambridge/Arkless Phono stage. It would be interesting to have compared the results of Paul Heinz v Arkless in terms of their projected retail prices. I don't know from anything I've read that Jez is claiming his products to better everything else on the market irrespective of price.
Also if I am not mistaken Jez was persuaded or saw a market opportunity to design a head amp after discussions here re the superiority of SUT's. Something you have been adamant about until a sudden recent conversion. I am sure from your original comments you would have to admit that the Arkless was good sounding even if in your opinion bettered by other products. Products which would likely cost considerably more if available commercially. Also can anyone be certain that differences heard were attributable to power supplies rather than other areas of circuit design and component quality? Also it may be just that the Akless didn't work well with the Whest or in the general system context.
I think the general subjective conclusions on sound quality by the listening group (3 people) should be taken as that. An opinion based on system context and the preferences of the listeners. A useful guide for readers considering these products if and when a production version appears on the market. I think it is pretty impertinent to suggest a designer change his design ideas completely rather than point out general areas were sound could be improved against other products. I am sure Jez actually listens to his products even though he gives the impression he is just wedded to measurement. Without having an actual retail product and price I don't think a final judgement can be made as to where his product sits in the market.
Paul.
Paul Hynes
19-12-2013, 11:51
Hi Shuggie,
Yes it has been very windy, in fact for several weeks we have had repetitive storm fronts ripping through the Isles some of which have exceeded wind speeds of 100 mph causing widespread structural damage. This is a pain, as you cannot get tradesmen for repair work here unless you book 6 to 12 months in advance, so I have lost a lot of time doing essential external repairs over the last two weeks.
It was fun clearing the drains last week with 50 to 70 mph wind speed and horizontal rain. Looking at the weather forecast it would appear that I will be having wind problems for the next few days too. Now, where is the Andrews.
Ali Tait
19-12-2013, 12:02
A phono stage or DAC does not require large amounts of power so it may be a small supply in a wall wart is more than adequate given that the regulation part of the PS is contained within the product. I am assuming that we are dealing with a simple step down rather than a noisy switch mode device here.
However I am not surprised that a designer would take offence in being told how to redesign a product in as much as suggesting he makes a completely different version to keep a number of forum members happy. I expect most of the work Jez did on that design was in optimising for wallwart use. Now you may be right in suspecting this has something to do with EC regs but may be a genuine desire to keep costs down. This approach probably has a lot to do with the affordable price of the Cambridge/Arkless Phono stage. It would be interesting to have compared the results of Paul Heinz v Arkless in terms of their projected retail prices. I don't know from anything I've read that Jez is claiming his products to better everything else on the market irrespective of price.
Also if I am not mistaken Jez was persuaded or saw a market opportunity to design a head amp after discussions here re the superiority of SUT's. Something you have been adamant about until a sudden recent conversion. I am sure from your original comments you would have to admit that the Arkless was good sounding even if in your opinion bettered by other products. Products which would likely cost considerably more if available commercially. Also can anyone be certain that differences heard were attributable to power supplies rather than other areas of circuit design and component quality? Also it may be just that the Akless didn't work well with the Whest or in the general system context.
I think the general subjective conclusions on sound quality by the listening group (3 people) should be taken as that. An opinion based on system context and the preferences of the listeners. A useful guide for readers considering these products if and when a production version appears on the market. I think it is pretty impertinent to suggest a designer change his design ideas completely rather than point out general areas were sound could be improved against other products. I am sure Jez actually listens to his products even though he gives the impression he is just wedded to measurement. Without having an actual retail product and price I don't think a final judgement can be made as to where his product sits in the market.
Paul.
Well said Paul, I agree 100%. I currently have the head amp in question, and Jez has been kind enough to allow me to keep it for demo. I'll post my impressions once I've had the chance for a good listen.
Excellent - and we look forward to that :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
19-12-2013, 12:31
Seems a post of mine has mysteriously disappeared.
Yes, Ali. Read the warning I wrote at the bottom of post #149:
Now that's really an end to the matter. If I see any more failing to grasp the facts and instead pigheadedly superimposing your own bias onto the actual reality, then it will be removed without further warning.
Other posts will also 'disappear', if they're simply to question my legitimate moderating decision, in reference to Jez. People need to respect the fact that this is my forum, and so I make the rules, in terms of what is acceptable here and what isn't.
I now insist that this thread gets back to talking about head amps. Any other off-topic matters will be deleted without further warning, and if necessary the thread locked.
Therefore, if you want the thread to remain open, and your posts intact, then from now on please keep the discussion on-topic!
Marco.
Marco I believe jez used the wallwart because it supplied him with the needed voltage and current to run his head amp. I think some people might be confusing using a simple wall wart as the first link between the wall and the device under test, and using it as the sole component in the PSU.
I haven't seen any evidence that anyone was making that assumption. In fact, Jez talked about his head amp being impervious to the quality of the incoming power such that it was obvious.
anubisgrau
19-12-2013, 14:34
there's no such a device in this sport :)
Thread closed, as promised, due to continued posting of off-topic material.
Marco.
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